54175 replies to this topic

[Shashank95]

I loved the comedy of this chapter it's gonna be so good animated. To think such a jackass(katakuri ya know) can be funny. Oda has a more original sense of humour than most mangakas

I saw a YouTube comment saying "The more badass a character is in One Piece, the more hilarious their personality is." Which definitely seems to be applicable here!

[NaruSaku fan in Kentucky]

Hey check this this video out...

[Kagomaru]

Hey check this this video out...

That was so cute.

[AHK]

 

 

Except 693 shows Sakura's despair at -not- being able to stop or save Sasuke. She -does- care. She wouldn't just "step over his body" like it was nothing, that would be rather OOC, given Kishimoto's portrayal.

 

And it's not "written", in the sense there's no actual scene of Sasuke killing Naruto and Sakura reacting, thus it is speculative debate we're having here.

 

Canonically, he did receive punishment. He was celled. You are arguing that it was insufficient, which is a fine position to have. Sasuke -did- save the world though, and that is a difficult weight to balance against his wrongdoings, in my opinion. 

 

As for the addicted line, you are ignoring 笑, which literally means "lol" or *laughs*, or "hahaha", which is an indication of humor, not serious intent. That is used after his line, and is always used after his humorous lines in interview, to clearly show it is a joke. 

 

Sakura was fine with throwing herself at Sasuke's feet despite him trying to kill her and Naruto on multiple occasions, and him trying to kill or enslave everyone she supposedly ever cared about, as well as the rest of the world. She wouldn't have blinked had Sasuke killed Naruto. This has been written. 

 

No, he didn't receive punishment. Simply being put in jail while they figured out what to do with him was not a punishment. He was basically put under watch. His "punishment" was his ridiculous journey, and that wasn't a punishment at all. Sasuke didn't save the world, he put himself in a position to to make it easier for him to dominate it. He didn't fight Kaguya because he wanted to help anyone. When he tried to take over, he got his ass whipped, and then they used the jutsu. He didn't save the world, Naruto did. 

 

I'm not ignoring anything. You can laugh about something and be completely serious about it. He didn't mean that in a joking manner. He meant what he said about her "love" being an addiction like that of a drug addiction. He admitted that it wasn't healthy. 

[LuckyChi7]

Hey check this this video out...

 

Ah the feels!!  not sure if there's a part 2, but man that would be great to see  

[ThroughWithLove]

It happened so gradually we didn't even notice. Kakashi was the one with most ninjapowers hands down, he's the one who got me into Naruto in the Zabuza arc and a longtime favorite character. I only felt apathy for him after he got resurrected.

They all became gods instead of ninjas and being not a fan of DB and likes I wasn't interested anymore.

 

DBZ basically became an endless showing of angry faced number battles. Power levels were all that mattered and creativity felt straight out the window. Same thing happened to Naruto really. Any creativity in the later fights were at best superficial or had been done a gajillion times beforehand.

[AHK]

 

The argument put forward is that this cannot be determined to happen, because it has not been written or declared by authorial intent. You argue because Sakura pleads to Sasuke, that it equates her being fine with Naruto's death. 

 

We know Sakura isn't fine with Naruto dying, because she's done all she could on multiple occasions to keep him alive. 

 

We know Sakura isn't fine with Sasuke's path before his turn, because she's attempted to kill him and bring him back.

 

That is counter evidence. Further, even without the counter evidence, you -cannot- say it is absolute, because you are not the author. You -have- to have written it. But we instead have what happened canonically. We don't know if the what-if would go down as you say, because the what-if was not written, nor the resulting effect.

 

Prison is punishment. Society agrees with that. That is why we have 'time out" for children, it is not a "watch", it is punishment, though often you do watch, to make sure they do not escape punishment. You can watch someone and not keep them confined, so your argument of no punishment doesn't make sense. Your position is more accurately "Insufficient punishment", which -is- debatable, because you -can't- be wrong when you say that, anymore than I could be to say it is sufficient. But to say no punishment is just false. 

 

Sasuke did save the world, stated as much by his pardoner. So did Sakura, and Naruto, and Kakashi. All Four had a part in it. It is blatantly false to say otherwise. 

 

You could, but that doesn't tend to be the case, but given his laughs are always transcribed for humor and jokes, what is your evidence that this one is him meaning it seriously? He was literally teasing a guy just before. You have to ignore the laugh -and- twist the interview to get to where your position is. 

Lmfao yes, it has been written. The ending is evidence to that. For what I believe is the 3rd time now, Sakura, after witnessing Sasuke try to kill her and Naruto, and after witnessing Sasuke try to take over the world and kill or enslave anyone who disagreed with his philosophy including all of her "friends" and people she supposedly cared about, still pleaded with Sasuke to go with him on his journey. Sakura did not care then, after all Sasuke had done, and she wouldn't have cared had he killed Naruto. It is literally how the manga ended for her. It is literally right there. It is canon.

 

Except that Sasuke wasn't imprisoned as our society defines it. He was being watched. They couldn't simply just "watch" him by letting him walk free, he was stronger than everyone there bar Naruto. He was not punished for being a mass murderer and trying to take over the world. Your constant justification of this is laughable.

 

No, he didn't, and it isn't blatantly false. Sasuke fought Kaguya and Madara so that he could enslave the world himself. He didn't do it to save everyone else and the world. When he tried to take over, Naruto beat the piss out of him. Naruto was the one who saved the world, Kakashi and Sakura helped. Sasuke merely used it as an opportunity to take over himself. Intent matters. Sasuke didn't give a rats ass about the end of the world, and he wasn't trying to save it. 

 

No, he wasn't. He was addressing the nature of Sakura's "love" for Sasuke, he was not kidding about it. Iirc, he did the same when he said that he killed Neji as a plot device for NH. He meant it. I don't have to twist anything, he said that Sakura's "love" is toxic, and wrote it as such. Again, you can laugh about something but be completely serious about it. Don't try and play the "you're twisting things" bs with me, given what you try and peddle on this site. 

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

 

DBZ basically became an endless showing of angry faced number battles. Power levels were all that mattered and creativity felt straight out the window. Same thing happened to Naruto really. Any creativity in the later fights were at best superficial or had been done a gajillion times beforehand.

Of course, the big difference is that DBZ was always like that from the beginning and didn't try to hide what it was with trying to be "deep" or with a bunch of philosophy that eventually didn't matter,...and it STILL does what "Naruto" tried to do MUCH better (like Piccolo or Vegeta compared to Sasuke).  

[AHK]

 

If you're referring to 699, then you are ignoring that Sasuke -has- changed, he is not pushing his former beliefs, and is leaving on very different terms. This is of no evidence towards the fact that Sakura would just step over Naruto's body. That is a far-out leap that doesn't make logical sense. 

 

By your definition, then those who end up in jail cells in general are being "watched". Sasuke received a pardon, and would continue to be in the cell without it. By your definition then, if he had no pardon, he would be watched, bound in a cell, for an unknown amount of time? That doesn't make logical sense, you can't redefine punishment like that.

 

This is another odd argument. Even if he -was-by your definition, he was recognized in the story as saving it. His later beliefs he had before his defeat required a living world that saw him as the antagonist, and your point clashes with that evidence.

 

The last is you are not understanding sardonic humor. Instead you take the words as they are, without context or comprehension, which is the error in your assertion. 

Your first sentence is irrelevant, entirely. Sasuke was someone who, for what is now the fourth time, wanted to kill her and Naruto, take over the world and kill or enslave anyone who disagreed with his philosophy including all of her "friends" and people she supposedly cared about. And despite that, she still pleaded with Sasuke to go with him on his journey. Sasuke had done all of that, and she still didn't care. That is evidence that in her eyes, it didn't matter what Sasuke did. That is a canon fact. 

 

No, that is not my definition. Don't try to twist what I say. Being jailed is, in our society, being punished for crimes you committed. Sasuke was not punished for crimes that he committed. All they did was keep an eye on him before not actually doing anything afterwards. He was not punished. Hell, we didn't even see him in a cell in the manga. The very fact that they didn't show Sasuke in a cell in the manga is evident enough that Kishi never intended for him to be punishment.

 

No, it isn't an odd argument. It is a rational, intelligent argument. Sasuke did not want to, nor did he care about saving the world. All of his actions were to taken to set himself up as the ruler of the world. Naruto beat him. He didn't really have a choice, Sasuke participated in the jutsu because of that. The lengths you go to gloss over Sasuke and what he did and didn't do is truly sad.  

 

You need to look up the definition of sardonic humor before you try to tell me what I do and don't understand, and what I do and don't take in context. Sardonic humor is humor that belittles or mocks. He was mocking Sakura's "love". He was being serious about what he said, and was being derisive about it. Nice try though.

[DrK]

It doesn't even make that much sense that they were even able to release Sasuke. He destroyed the Raikage's arm. Does no one remember how much of a pain in the ass that guy was about things that affected him? He would NEVER have accepted Sasuke having freedom. It would have completely ruined the Shinobi Alliance and dragged the world right into another war. Konoha would have had to capitulate.

[DrK]

Tell me, what does A get out of it? The comparison to the situation with Naruto hiding himself isn't apt. That was Naruto convincing A of a battle strategy. It ended up being the best for both Naruto and A. Only a couple people in Konoha like Sasuke. Sasuke being free could not possibiy benefit A and even if it could there is absolutely no way he could be convinced of that.

 

Imagine that someone destroyed YOUR arm. On purpose. Because they were evil at the time. And now the authorities that are in charge of him say that they want him to walk free. Can you imagine yourself being "convinced" of that? I doubt it. And you aren't even a ridiculously headstrong caricature of a black man. It simply isn't happening.

Edited by DrK, 28 October 2017 - 01:34 AM.

[AHK]

Sakura forgave Sasuke. That's the point. Sasuke apologized for everything to her. You don't have to like it, but it in no way equates "stepping over Naruto's body" level of not caring. That is an argument that cannot be proven, which is my point. I understand your clear position that Sasuke should not have been forgiven, but it is in no way mandated that every other person must have this view. Many others agree that Sasuke got off a little on the easy side, others were fine with the circumstances because he was going on a mission of clear redemption and had changed. Neither thought line is wrong, or can be wrong, because it's a subjective thing. 

 

Yes, Kishimoto never intended for Sasuke to stay celled, instead he wanted him to go on his journey. It's implied in the manga he is celled, though poorly,  a good fix the anime makes. No, you cannot just sweep away that being celled is not a punishment. You're digging in your trench unnecessarily. It's perfectly valid to say it was a poor punishment, but it's unarguable that there was -no- punishment. 

 

In no ways am I excusing Sasuke. He -did- save the world but his post-plan after that -is- bad, that is not being excused. What must be weighed in though is that he -did- save the world, regardless of what reason, everyone alive partially has Sasuke to thank. 

 

You can't apply "sardonic humor", and then say "It was meant seriously", as that clashes and the entire point of sardonic humor is to jokingly belittle. The belittling humor -isn't- supposed to be taken seriously, and it's not the first time he's used sardonic humor against his own characters, calling Naruto "Crazy" once. 

Yes, it does equate to that. First of all, Sasuke saying sorry never meant anything to begin with, as Sakura made it clear while she was healing him that he didn't need to apologize for it. She completely brushed it off as if he didn't do anything to begin with. It wasn't about forgiveness. Sakura didn't care that he had done everything he had done, all of which was far worse together than if he had killed Naruto. She wouldn't have cared either way. It isn't a subjective thing. All of this is displayed in the manga. 

 

No, it isn't implied. Regardless, it doesn't not change the fact that Sasuke did not face any punishment for his crimes. Kakashi legitimately let him off with a warning. The journey was not a punishment, it was Sasuke wanting to see and understand the world. It had nothing to do with any punishment on behalf of Kakashi and the villages. 

 

Lmao you are excusing Sasuke. You're trying to prop him up as someone who saved the world when that was never his goal. All he did was make it easier for himself to rule it. That isn't saving the world. The only reason everyone is alive is because Naruto beat his ass. Sasuke didn't chose it. 

 

Yes you can, lmao. Again, you can make a joke about something but be entirely serious about the point. The entire point of sardonic humor, since I assume you didn't bother to look it up, is to mock, is to be derisive. That in no way takes away from the point. He was making fun of her, he was using the humor to make a point about what her "love" being toxic, because it was. That's how he wrote the story. He wasn't simply joking around.

Edited by AHK, 28 October 2017 - 02:42 AM.

[DrK]

Imagine that you were trying to destroy the world, but accidentally saved it. Like if you had stolen the nuclear codes to launch an ICBM at a country with the nuclear triad, so that they would respond, creating mutually assured destruction for everyone. But when you happened to launch the missile, a giant meteor just happened to be heading towards the Earth which would have killed everyone, so your missile hits it and blows it up, saving everyone. Is everyone supposed to get on their hands and knees and worship you? You're still spending the rest of your life in prison in the best case scenario.

 

I can imagine Naruto and the post 698 lobotomized Sakura seeing it as Sasuke saving the world. No one else would ever see it that way.

Edited by DrK, 28 October 2017 - 03:39 AM.

[Shashank95]

Kishi's unhealthy obsession with Sasuke translated into Team 7's unhealthy obsession for that Emo-douche. I still don't understand what Sasuke did for Team 7 that warranted such blind devotion.

[DrK]

Well, he did save Naruto. Not that Haku's attack was likely to kill Naruto, but who knows how the fight would have gone if he didn't. The very next arc he becomes a dark character with a cursed seal. He had like one more heroic moment after that in the Chunin Exams and that's all.

Edited by DrK, 28 October 2017 - 06:31 AM.

[bthug]

So after the ending of Naruto I distanced myself from the franchise, not only because of the pairing, but what I thought was truly abysmal writing near the end of the manga. However, I recently purchased Storm 4 (bought it from eBay so anyone involved with Naruto would not profit, not that it really matters lol) and so I've been playing through the story mode and I just can't believe how some of the stuff played out.

 

Now some of the moments in the game vary slightly from the manga, but their is one part where Sakura is captured by Madara and Sasuke uses this an opportunity to attack Madara, Naruto saves Sakura. Sakura comments that Sasuke really doesn't care about her...

 

Then towards the very end Sakura pleads with Sasuke to stay and he calls her annoying...and stabs her through the heart, granted it was a genjutsu.

 

Then after all this, Sakura asks to travel with Sasuke with disregard for anything else....it's like wow....Sakura really was just destroyed as a character. Imagine any person every doing that? That's some serious battered women syndrome (Which is not funny, just using it as an example I suppose.)

 

 

And the worst part, THE WORST PART (at least for me) there just is no explanation or anything grounded in the plot to explain these actions.

 

Why oh why does Sakura have this undying and unnatural love for sasuke. And how can she just ignore Naruto after everything, it just doesn't make sense to me. In one corner you have somebody you inexplicably 'love" and in the other corner u have someone who you've spent an exorbitant amount of time with

 

 

Why is their no comment or emotion from Naruto regarding Sakura's feelings. Its been a driving point since the beginning and its Naruto he comments about everything especially something important to him.

 

And why on Earth would Sasuke like Sakura back? Where did that come from? It took him years and countless fights and death just to accept Naruto, so where is the explanation for marrying Sakura. Not to mention Karin was introduced and their is clearly a better bond between them too.

 

And then of course I went and watched a bunch of NS moments and let me tell you man that OVA 6...whoever made that had it right. That's how Naruto should have ended.

 

Ah sorry, for the rant. It's really late lol.

Edited by bthug, 28 October 2017 - 07:33 AM.

[DrK]

Did you put any thought into that at all? The leader of Kumogakure, who is A, sustained a serious injury by Sasuke which left him crippled. They are in an alliance with Konoha after the war. Yet it's your belief that A would not have "final say" on something like this? You talk about a hold out? What, do you think the other three nations are just going to be so excited about Sasuke's redemption that they would guilt-trip A into acceptance? Why? The process wasn't detailed because it would have made no sense whatsoever.

[DrK]

Do you understand that Konoha can't simply do whatever it wants without any sanction? They cannot simply spite the other countries. Even without the presence of an alliance this would be a huge issue. With one it is untenable. Remember the instance where Konoha killed Neji's father and sent him to Kumo? Why do you think they did that? The Kumo ambassador was dead, right? Kumo lost that exchange. Yet Konoha killed one of their own people! And this was a case where Kumo was in the wrong!

 

Now Kumo are the ones being slighted since Sasuke is completely in the wrong. You think Konoha could just blow A off? Being the hero of the world or who the Hokage is is irrelevant. Being a hero of the world doesn't put food on people's plates. It doesn't matter how strong Naruto's jutsus are. The other countries could apply pressure on them in a myriad of ways. And it doesn't help the situation at all that no one outside of Konoha would want to help Sasuke. He's an extremely powerful and dangerous person. He will not help anyone other than Konoha. Brushing off his crimes is not in the interest of the other nations. It's in their best interest if he was six feet under. In reality the mitigating points you are bringing up are the type of thing they could use to stop him from being executed. And that is all they would manage to do. Think about real world politics. Why do we have to tolerate North Korea having a nuclear program? Why don't we just bomb them until they don't have a nuclear program anymore? Because we can't. Every country would hate us. Why can't Konoha just release Uchiha Sasuke and ignore any complaints that would be made about it? They can't. Every other country would hate them.

 

Konoha can't simply quietly release him without saying anything! There would be a huge deal made of it that everyone would be talking about. And the thing everyone would be saying is "Kill Uchiha Sasuke". Then Naruto comes in and begs on his hands and knees and they feel bad for him and instead imprison him for life. That's what would happen realistically. You are not thinking about this critically at all.

Edited by DrK, 28 October 2017 - 11:21 AM.

[DrK]

There doesn't need to be evidence! It's basic human nature! People do things that are in their best interest!

 

You said earlier that you wanted to change your name. You really should consider doing that because it doesn't suit you at all right now. This is not a hard thing to analyze. Let's break it down simply:

 

We have 5 nations: Konoha, Kiri, Suna, Kumo, and Iwa, right? These are the 5 major powers, they're currently in an alliance giving them even more impact on each other's decisions. Let's give Konoha to Sasuke like they would always go in his favor, even though a lot of people there probably hate Sasuke too.

 

The war is over. It is well known that Sasuke committed crimes, killed samurai, whatever else, and destroyed the Raikage's arm. The nations are aware of this and hold a hearing. The question of the hearing is what should be done about Sasuke. If the conclusion is come to that he should be killed, then he will be killed. If he is not killed after that decision is come to, then the other nations are going to be very upset and either sanction Konoha, making it so they have difficulty getting food, goods, weapons, jutsus, workers, or whatever the hell else, or outright declaring war and killing people in Fire Country and Konoha. This would be bad for Konoha and they want to avoid it so they would not go against what was decided in the hearing. If you're thinking of saying "I don't know that they would have a hearing or that it would be structured that way!" which would be really annoying, know that something like an alliance would be impossible without the ability to have this. And an alliance is unenforcable if no one can exert any pressure on anyone in the alliance.

 

What should be done about Sasuke?

Konoha: Let him go

Suna: Kill him (Probably, maybe Naruto could get Gaara to do something, but I doubt it. The backlash would be HORRIBLE for Gaara among his own people and he never seemed to like Sasuke at all.)

Iwa: Kill him

Kumo: Kill him

Kiri: Kill him

 

Are Sasuke's crimes deserving of being punished by death? Yes. He destroyed the arm of the leader of a country. That's attempted murder in addition to crippling someone who is vitally important to an entire nation. That's in addition to all the other kitten he did. Everyone would come to this conclusion if it was anyone other than Sasuke.

 

Why do the four nations say kill him? Because he committed crimes, he is dangerous, he is powerful so he can kill THEIR ninjas if he is freed, if there is a war he will fight against them, they have no way of knowing they can trust he won't go crazy again, etc, etc, etc. etc. Sasuke is aligned with Konoha, not with them. They have nothing at all to gain and everything to lose by him remaining alive. Therefore they will want him to die, therefore they will vote to kill him. They're ninjas. Death is part of their job description. There is no reason they would be sympathetic towards Sasuke or squeamish about killing him. So what happens? Sasuke is killed.

 

The only thing that could prevent this is Naruto busting in at the last second on his hands and knees and they feel sorry for him. Then Sasuke simply has his chakra sealed and is imprisoned for life. This is all extremely common sense stuff. You're saying we don't know what they would do, but the ninjas in the story are presented as human beings, right? Not aliens? They will do what is in their best interest. And this greed and self-interest shown by the powerful people was displayed in the story. Most notably with Neji's father, where Konoha cowed to the demands because it was easier to kill Neji's father than deal with what they would lose in fighting with Kumo.

Edited by DrK, 28 October 2017 - 12:15 PM.

[lupina]

 

And why on Earth would Sasuke like Sakura back? Where did that come from? It took him years and countless fights and death just to accept Naruto, so where is the explanation for marrying Sakura. Not to mention Karin was introduced and their is clearly a better bond between them too

 

Personally, I came to the conclusion that it happened by accident. After Sasuke got a beat up by Naruto, he had a sudden change of heart. If it was Karin who had been there healing him (of course, without her being parodized earlier. In that case, she would've just ignored his "Yeah, Sorry" and acted as if nothing happened.) and giving him the same talk Sakura did, he might've fallen for her instead.