54175 replies to this topic

[NarutoUzumaki01]

 

This is fine. I don't think it matters, or is really relevant to 700 that it needs that novel's detail, but that's strictly my opinion.

 

On development though? I question their criteria of "developed", as I really think people miss that it is "changing" and shifting with significance rather than normal status quo behaviors. Saying no development though is strictly wrong, I can demonstrate this within one arc alone. 

And that's going to be only your opinion. Fact is fact, there is whole movie, to develope what wasn't in manga. And yes, there is no romantical development between main couple till the very end. A cherry on top is Sasuke's ooc in 699. 

[BlackShirtGuy]

 

Small correction, the movie shows the romantic culmination. NH itself is developed in the manga, but not to the point of romantic culmination. 

 

Sasuke isn't OOC in 699. Why would he be acting how he was a few chapters earlier? 

 

The understanding is that perhaps the interpretation of Sasuke lying in 693 has merit in 699. 

culmination.

culmination

culmination.

 

 

Hey, then I've got a very nice question for you for "culmination" I assume you must be referring to the confession on Peins battle, since it was the only romantic moment this pairing had (kinda) and don't try to wiggle it saying that other moments are romantic between them they might be for Hinata but they AREN'T for Naruto so don't brought them on this opinion.

Anyways as for the question, if this movie is the "Culmination" as you say it is then why, please DO tell, the movie itself says that Naruto didn't even understand the confession, and while you are there, if it's only a "culmination" why does it take so much of the screentime from the movie?

Edited by BlackShirtGuy, 02 October 2017 - 07:05 PM.

[NarutoUzumaki01]

 

Small correction, the movie shows the romantic culmination. NH itself is developed in the manga, but not to the point of romantic culmination. 

 

Sasuke isn't OOC in 699. Why would he be acting how he was a few chapters earlier? 

 

The understanding is that perhaps the interpretation of Sasuke lying in 693 has merit in 699. 

Your denial is funny    

Let alone that Naruto never, I state NEVER considered Hinata above anything else than a classmate (not even a friend) in 700 chapters of manga. You are free to send me scan when he think of her that way.

Sasuke lying to himself or Naruto? Or reader? Because he doesn't mention Sakura at all. And before you start pulling your lies about "interpretation" plz remember that your opinion is still only your opinion, no matter how you try to present it with straight face. It's ooc, bottom line, not because I want it, or many people in here probably consider it, but because in manga he was showed 99% of time with one character and attitude, and for 1 chapter he switched without development.

Edited by NarutoUzumaki01, 02 October 2017 - 07:20 PM.

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

In fact, let me share this list that someone on FF.net compiled about the standard cliches of a God/Evil Naruto fic:

 

I've recently found an interesting guide to an "Epic" Naruto story that I more or less agree with. Look down this list and think about how many stories you've read that have followed or based itself around at least some of this formula...

Step One: Naruto is being chased by an angry mob even though he's only three years old (barely old enough to wipe his own ass) and living alone for some reason.

 

Step Two: He trips and/or reaches a dead end (oh noooo's) and they proceed to inflict grievous, crippling, and all around over exaggerated unsurvivable wounds.

 

Step Three: After ten minutes of stabbing and beating (Which miraculously avoided his vitals) someone comes in to inflict the the final blows at the crowds jeering.

 

Step Four: In a 'thrilling' and 'suspenseful' moment a giant war-hammer is swung down on Naruto, only to be stopped an inch from his head by token superhero #25.

 

Step Five: Token superhero #25 yells at crowd. "WHAT ARE YOU DOING TO THIS POOR BOY?!," crowd replies. "KILLING THE DEMON!" or the like. Slaughter ensues.

 

Step Six: Sarutobi and an Anbu squad show up. (perfect timing) Hokage confronts token superhero #25. "WHO ARE YOU?!" hero responds. "I'm super awesome-man! (Relation to Naruto's parents optional) Now why are your villagers attacking this poor boy?"

 

Step Seven: The Hokage proceeds to break his own law and tells to complete strangers Naruto's life story, much to their outrage.

 

Step Eight: Token superhero #25 says he's taking the boy away to train him. Sarutobi agrees immediately without argument, but pleads for them to return for the Genins exams. #25 agrees. (The fact that he agreed to bring the kid back to a place that delivered a massive beating to a three year old didn't seem to bother him.)

 

Step Nine: Naruto wakes up after the ten minute conversation completely healed, energetic, and with enough brain damage to forgive the entire ordeal. (Apparently he's Jesus, filled with infinite forgiveness for the unforgivable)

 

Step Nine Alt: Naruto wakes up a broken boy who becomes a bitter kitten who can't find it in himself to ever trust people fully again save for a close few, and doesn't try to hold back his contempt for everyone save behind thinly veiled sarcasm/smugness.

 

Step Ten: They fill Naruto in on the details and he begs to be able to come back to be Hokage, (a three year old can comprehend that... how?) and the duo is off.

 

Step Eleven: Time skip. Naruto returns, covered in trench coats and pictures of foxes (throwing all stigmas to the wind) and acting like a self-righteous kitten with an attitude.

 

Step Twelve: Meets Hokage and dishes out all his skills in painful detail (Throwing all ninja sense to the wind). Assigned to go to the academy, which happens to be having its exam that day.

 

Step Thirteen: Shows off dramatically for the test and remainder of story, pwning everyone but Orochimaru in the Forest of Death.

 

Step Fourteen: Total bashing of Konoha villagers and/or other characters the author doesn't like (glance towards Sasuke and Sakura) and are flanderized to practically total kitten/uselessness levels.

 

Step Fifteen: Harem with Naruto! (Includes every female character imaginable *glance towards Sakura* with all the guys staring in envy).

 

Step Sixteen: Naruto is self-righteous (sometimes not unjustifiably so) and doesn't hesitate to call out others on their kitten, to which they can do nothing but agree (never mind if they have an actually valid excuse for it all...)

For Step Eight, they forgot the alternative bit where Naruto ends up meeting Kurama in his mindscape and either isn't scared at all of a giant fox manifestation of chakra or Kurama is suddenly this unbelievably hot human female who will join Naruto's harem. Either way Kurama is suddenly this caring individual who really wants to help Naruto rather than the raging, vengeful being who wants to destroy Naruto and all of humanity and will either train Naruto to be stronger or will magically just make Naruto uber-powerful right there all while Naruto just somehow understands the Jinchuriki situation and calmly accepts it.

[ThroughWithLove]

 

In the last paragraph you are direly missing that Naruto s tricking Sakura by being Sasuke. Forehead comment legitimate or not, it doesn't really play much into this . . .

 

Naruto told us why he did this. You just don't care.

 

Him transforming into Sasuke in the first place had nothing to do with Sasuke. He was trying to find out how she felt about him. Yet again, you give the source material the finger when it doesn't suit your headcanon. This is unhealthy.

 

 

This is why I loath this scene "glorified" as an NS moment, as it's pretty much manipulation. 

 

No, you loathe it because it legitimizes NS and requires the reader to do mental gymnastics to get around the fact that Naruto legitimately likes Sakura. So you can talk up all the "manipulation" and whatnot, but you clearly haven't been exposed to a lot of literature (or hell, storytelling in general) if that's your reason for thinking Naruto's feelings are shallow. Go watch Hey Arnold. Hell, I guess Helga Pataki doesn't really "love" Arnold due to her deceptive/manipulative antics she constantly uses to try and win his affections.

 

The rest is just your typical mockery.

 

It's not. You just don't have a response. Spanks for playing. 

Edited by ThroughWithLove, 02 October 2017 - 08:27 PM.

[TheFirstEvil100]

 

 

Naruto told us why he did this. You just don't care.

 

Him transforming into Sasuke in the first place had nothing to do with Sasuke. He was trying to find out how she felt about him. Yet again, you give the source material the finger when it doesn't suit your headcanon. This is unhealthy.

 

 

 

No, you loathe because it legitimizes NS and requires the reader to do mental gymnastics to get around the fact that Naruto legitimately likes Sakura. So you can talk up all the "manipulation" and whatnot, but you clearly haven't been exposed to a lot of literature (or hell, storytelling in general) if that's your reason for thinking Naruto's feelings are shallow. Go watch Hey Arnold. Hell, I guess Helga Pataki doesn't really "love" Arnold due to her deceptive/manipulative antics she constantly uses to try and win his affections.

 

 

It's not. You just don't have a response. Spanks for playing. 

 

This is also the proof that she is not the NaruSaku fans she clams to be again I have brought this up it is easy to lie on sites like this as I said before I could say my sister is a lesbian like she is saying she loves NS no she does not love it not once has she ever brought up her love for the pairing.

 

All she does is talk about this BS ending was planned, and no matter what she does none us us will listen to her I mean I told my mum on the same old same old BS that you know who keeps using for SS that they were enimes I said all the times that he tried to kill her and put her down and even let her die.

 

And this is what my mum had to say was that no women would be that stupid and keep loving a guy if they had a brain and went on to say that if they did they they have a mentel issue that they need to go and get fixed, and that was my mum who is almost 60 and been married twice,

 

Hell she even called Naruto a prick for using Sakura the way he did, and went onto saying that if they wanted to use the whole rival game then it should have been when Naruto was 12, as he was still a kid and could be a little more forgiving.

[ThroughWithLove]

 

This still plays into Naruto wanting Sakura to acknowledge him and not Sasuke. 

 

Opinion =/= Counter Argument.

 

 

 

I'm not ignoring the source material. I think you're just ignoring that it syncs with it even as you throw up panels that support my own stance. 

 

Again, opinion =/= counter argument. "Because I say so" is not an argument. Naruto flat out tells us why he disguised himself as Sasuke in the first place. He didn't decide to make Sasuke look bad until after the fact despite there being nothing to stop him beforehand.

 

 

No, your twisting of my point still do not capture my opinion.

 

That observation and my humorous jape-filled style in general is not for your benefit, but for anyone actually taking the time to trudge this circus show that is being passed off as a "debate." I could alternatively sit here and say begging the question, argument by assertion, appeal to popularity, argumentum ad nauseam, reductio ad absurdum and shifting the goal post over and over again, but that would be dull. 

 

 

 

And lack of argument for what? 

 

Me showing that Sakura loved Sasuke at the moments in Naruto's flashback in chapter 474 and me ripping apart this notion that Naruto randomly brought up the POAL in response to Sai's question by demonstrating that it would make equal sense, according to your logic, for Naruto bring up loving fried catfish. The fact that I seasoned these points with humor is irrelevant. Style over substance fallacy.

Edited by ThroughWithLove, 02 October 2017 - 08:48 PM.

[TheFirstEvil100]

 

Opinion =/= Counter Argument.

 

 

 

Again, opinion =/= counter argument. "Because I say so" is not an argument. Naruto flat out tells us why he disguised himself as Sasuke in the first place. He didn't decide to make Sasuke look bad until after the fact despite there being nothing to stop him beforehand.

 

 

 

That observation and my humorous jape-filled style in general is not for your benefit, but for anyone actually taking the time to trudge this circus show that is being passed off as a "debate." I could alternatively sit here and say begging the question, argument by assertion, appeal to popularity, argumentum ad nauseam, reductio ad absurdum and shifting the goal post over and over again, but that would be dull. 

 

 

 

Me showing that Sakura loved Sasuke at the moments in Naruto's flashback in chapter 474 and me ripping apart this notion that Naruto randomly brought up the POAL in response to Sai's question by demonstrating that it would make equal sense, according to your logic, for Naruto bring up loving fried catfish. The fact that I seasoned these points with humor is irrelevant. Style over substance fallacy.

I know I mean looking at it not once and I mean once does Naruto say I want Sakura to acknowledge, nope he wanted to know what Sakura's feelings are for him.

[Catra]

so ive tried thinking of how naruto could be as a better, smarter, respectful and responsible adult but i just couldn't put my mind through it without giving up.

[Dalton.T.R]

You know...I think the reason Kishimoto wasn't great with female characters is because he had a run in like this at some point in his life.

 

 

This is taking bad luck with the opposite sex to a completely different level. 

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

so ive tried thinking of how naruto could be as a better, smarter, respectful and responsible adult but i just couldn't put my mind through it without giving up.

One immediate idea I always have is to have people actually teach him reality, not merely either implant their ideals into him, simply spout noble-sounding philosophy to him and/or just try to do so once, then give up just because Naruto refuses to listen the first time (like Jiraiya after Naruto's battle with Sasuke). As I keep saying, you don't need to turn Naruto around a complete 180 and make him into a total cynic, but he does need balance between reality and (naive) idealism, otherwise he is simply little more than an opposite extreme to ones like Madara and also not good for the world.

[TheFirstEvil100]

One immediate idea I always have is to have people actually teach him reality, not merely either implant their ideals into him, simply spout noble-sounding philosophy to him and/or just try to do so once, then give up just because Naruto refuses to listen the first time (like Jiraiya after Naruto's battle with Sasuke). As I keep saying, you don't need to turn Naruto around a complete 180 and make him into a total cynic, but he does need balance between reality and (naive) idealism, otherwise he is simply little more than an opposite extreme to ones like Madara and also not good for the world.

Which I think is a bad view that Naruto has this damn naive idealism of how the world works thinking he can talk to bad guys on how wrong they are in what they do and to make them all think the way that he thinks as well that you can all hold hands and sing a song get rid of all your troubles.

 

I mean its not just that, its also how Naruto thinks we should all forgive each other no matter the crime that has been done to someone and the pain that the victim has gone through, I mean would any of you forgive someone that killed your child to Naruto messed up mind then yes you do as Naruto would say they were in a dark place.

 

Think about it we all know what Gato did in Wave, but you just add in a sad back story on how his father killed his mother and Naruto would bend over backwards for the guy, and all because a sob story on how his past was hard. Looking at it more and more you can see Naruto just remained a child in his own little world The Land of Iron when he cried like a little kitten was proof of that that he couldn't take how they really should have handled Sasuke the Raikage said no and Sasuke would be hunted down and killed for the crimes that he did.

[Kagomaru]

One immediate idea I always have is to have people actually teach him reality, not merely either implant their ideals into him, simply spout noble-sounding philosophy to him and/or just try to do so once, then give up just because Naruto refuses to listen the first time (like Jiraiya after Naruto's battle with Sasuke). As I keep saying, you don't need to turn Naruto around a complete 180 and make him into a total cynic, but he does need balance between reality and (naive) idealism, otherwise he is simply little more than an opposite extreme to ones like Madara and also not good for the world.

And this is why reviving everyone in the Pain arc may have been a mistake from a narrative perspective.   Take Naruto's stance towards Pain for instance: Even after hearing Nagato's story and acknowledging that he could empathize with him and understood his goals, he still wouldn't condone nor forgive the man for his atrocities. If Kishimoto had gone with the scenario where Naruto lived with the death of his comrades on his shoulders and without the means to resurrect them, this experience could've served as character development that would lead to Naruto rethinking his words to Jiraiya about Sasuke and moderate his ideals in response to reality.   As you said, I don't want Naruto to become a complete cynic because that largely contrasts with who he is, but he needs to understand that he cannot force his philosophy, emotions and beliefs onto others and expect them to reciprocate with stunning self-realizations that will motivate them to see the error of their ways all of the time. Nor should he selfishly ignore their crimes for the sake of a flawed ideology. 

 

Of course, If we go with Pain reviving the village's population,  He should only revive a limited number of people, leaving out the ones whose loss would have a certain amount of impact on him such as Iruka, or Kakashi, etc. 

Edited by Kagomaru, 03 October 2017 - 04:55 PM.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

Which I think is a bad view that Naruto has this damn naive idealism of how the world works thinking he can talk to bad guys on how wrong they are in what they do and to make them all think the way that he thinks as well that you can all hold hands and sing a song get rid of all your troubles.

 

I mean its not just that, its also how Naruto thinks we should all forgive each other no matter the crime that has been done to someone and the pain that the victim has gone through, I mean would any of you forgive someone that killed your child to Naruto messed up mind then yes you do as Naruto would say they were in a dark place.

 

Think about it we all know what Gato did in Wave, but you just add in a sad back story on how his father killed his mother and Naruto would bend over backwards for the guy, and all because a sob story on how his past was hard. Looking at it more and more you can see Naruto just remained a child in his own little world The Land of Iron when he cried like a little kitten was proof of that that he couldn't take how they really should have handled Sasuke the Raikage said no and Sasuke would be hunted down and killed for the crimes that he did.

 

Agreed, and I also wished Naruto didn't just want to get stronger just to save Sasuke, but for something else that'd be worthwhile as well. I mean, in my fanfic revamp, Naruto: The Demon Within, I had it that since Naruto did keep the POAL but he saw too just how dangerous Sasuke had become due to his effectively going bat crazy, he wants to become stronger so he can protect everything precious to him, but not to the point that he is super obsessed about protecting everything by himself like how Luffy comes off after the timeskip in One Piece.

 

He even tells Jiraiya off in a similar way to canon but that he wants to become a ninja that can protect the things that are important to him no matter the cost, and reminding Jiraiya about how Naruto got his name from Legend of the Gutsy Ninja, and such, and that Naruto also gets kind of an attitude like Goku at times.

 

And that there can be a line he would draw rather than just try to do the Talking Jutsu, since even I got fed up with that after a bit.

[ThroughWithLove]

I know I mean looking at it not once and I mean once does Naruto say I want Sakura to acknowledge, nope he wanted to know what Sakura's feelings are for him.

 

Basically. Had nothing to do with wanting to compete with Sasuke, hence Naruto's sincerity here and throughout various places in the manga. He was in love with this girl.

 

 

To Elaborate, in your panel, here is Naruto seeking to see if Sakura has any craving for his acknowledgement, I.E., likes him, after really only finding out she craves Sasuke's, and now plotting to make Sasuke out to be a jerk to... obviously try to win her attention. This within your own provided panel. 

 

Nah, Naruto does not say nor think anything about seeing if Sakura "craves his acknowledgement." That's an effort on your part to equivocate two different terms in order to shoehorn the explanation offered in the The Last. What we do know is that Naruto's dream since the beginning has been to become Hokage and for everyone in the village to acknowledge him. We then see in the third chapter that Sakura herself seeks desperately to be acknowledged by someone. Thus, if we're simply gonna offer fanfic worthy postulations, I'd go with something that actually makes sense, such as Naruto appreciating the parallel between them and falling in love with her as a result. 

 

 

See Above, really. It in no way invalidates, clashes, or otherwise really does anything against the claim of "Desiring Sakura to give attention, acknowledgement, whatever the word we want to use to Naruto, rather than Sasuke". 

 

It invalidates the nonsensical notion that Naruto came out there for the purposes of competing with Sasuke as opposed to any sincere or legitimate feelings of his own. If beating Sasuke is the goal, he can make the jerk routine his opening act. There was nothing stopping the author from doing this. 

 

 

 

The Flashback is just a show of Sakura's affections to Sasuke. It is not necessarily equating that. At most, it is equating that in Naruto's P.O.V. At worst, this is you reaching. Factually, we don't know when Sakura fell in love with Sasuke. I'm not sure what notion you are talking about, because I already elaborated what my position was, but here you are not understanding that position, or interpreting it vastly differently. No wonder why you are thinking about fried catfish. May want to have some for lunch.  

 

 

Pure sophistry all to defend the laughable notion that Karin didn't love Sasuke. 

 

Premise 1. Author is writing a story.

Premise 2. Author is establishing in a scene that Sakura deeply loves Sasuke.

Premise 3: Author has Naruto recall childhood flashbacks as everything in premise 2 is being established.

Premise 4: Premise 2 is never contested at any point in the remainder of the story.

Premise 5: Nothing in premise 2 is ever given any other explanation.

Conclusion: Therefore, Author is establishing that Sakura loved Sasuke during childhood flashbacks.

 

 

As to the fried catfish, I don't care what you "elaborated." What you elaborated was that Naruto was simply making a random statement and that the promise had no connection to his feelings for Sakura. So in other words, he may as well have brought up a craving for fried catfish, the easter bunny or Donald Trump according to you.

Edited by ThroughWithLove, 03 October 2017 - 05:34 PM.

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

Which I think is a bad view that Naruto has this damn naive idealism of how the world works thinking he can talk to bad guys on how wrong they are in what they do and to make them all think the way that he thinks as well that you can all hold hands and sing a song get rid of all your troubles.

 

I mean its not just that, its also how Naruto thinks we should all forgive each other no matter the crime that has been done to someone and the pain that the victim has gone through, I mean would any of you forgive someone that killed your child to Naruto messed up mind then yes you do as Naruto would say they were in a dark place.

 

Think about it we all know what Gato did in Wave, but you just add in a sad back story on how his father killed his mother and Naruto would bend over backwards for the guy, and all because a sob story on how his past was hard. Looking at it more and more you can see Naruto just remained a child in his own little world The Land of Iron when he cried like a little kitten was proof of that that he couldn't take how they really should have handled Sasuke the Raikage said no and Sasuke would be hunted down and killed for the crimes that he did.

You also have to remember that those sob stories usually tend to involve something that makes them similar to Naruto (or Sasuke); usually a "Naruto gone wrong" foil - Haku, Gaara, Nagato, Obito, etc. But you notice in other things, if the sob story is something that Naruto can't relate to, Naruto tends to be a lot less caring or gung-ho about "helping" them, usually in fillers and/or films. I mean, look at how he is in the Land of Snow movie with Koyuki. When Koyuki asks him why he keeps finding her and bringing her back, does Naruto give a bright smile and some pretty speech that surprises her? No, he's dimmed, more downcast, and outright says that it's because it's his mission.

 

And this is why reviving everyone in the Pain arc may have been a mistake from a narrative perspective.   Take Naruto's stance towards Pain for instance: Even after hearing Nagato's story and acknowledging that he could empathize with him and understood his goals, he still wouldn't condone nor forgive the man for his atrocities. If Kishimoto had gone with the scenario where Naruto lived with the death of his comrades on his shoulders and without the means to resurrect them, this experience could've served as character development that would lead to Naruto rethinking his words to Jiraiya about Sasuke and moderate his ideals in response to reality.   As you said, I don't want Naruto to become a complete cynic because that largely contrasts with who he is, but he needs to understand that he cannot force his philosophy, emotions and beliefs onto others and expect them to reciprocate with stunning self-realizations that will motivate them to see the error of their ways all of the time. Nor should he selfishly ignore their crimes for the sake of a flawed ideology. 

 

Of course, If we go with Pain reviving the village's population,  He should only revive a limited number of people, leaving out the ones whose loss would have a certain amount of impact on him such as Iruka, or Kakashi, etc. 

And that's why I bring up how it seems like everyone is forced to conform to Naruto's beliefs. I mean, you have ones like Nagato and Obito, two individuals who spend a decade or more completely stewing in their darkness and hatred, firmly entrenched in their belief that what they're doing is the right or best thing for the world and yet they get so easily swayed to just give up all of that after one or so Talk no Jutsu? That would be like some random Allied soldier giving Hitler a pretty speech about believing in the people and the world and whatnot, then Hitler just surrendering peacefully, giving up his fascist ideology, freeing all the camp prisoners, etc. just like that, and then afterwards, being let off without any real punishment just because that Allied soldier vouches for him.

[Legend054]

On the first part, how so? Because nothing of the dynamic really changes at all in the 400s to the end of the manga.

 

You are correct, Naruto -does- have a crush on Sakura in chapter 3. The error though, is you are attributing that having great respect and admiration must turn into romantic love, when you can certainly have respect and admiration for a friend, and a crush on them. The moments I call a joke -do- demonstrate Naruto's feelings, as long as we understand it is to an extent of a crush, though not always, the 600s is just blatant teasing as confirmed by Naruto. 

 

The Last part makes no sense. Kishimoto says he is bad at writing romance, so that means the Last is a terrible Movie. Kishimoto did not write the last, he edited the script and made certain insertions inspired by his own love life. Kishimoto being bad at writing romance has nothing to do with the Last's quality. That's a logical fallacy. 

 

The rest is just silly, getting into near conspiracy level stuff I won't engage in.

Read chapter 457.

 

You've not proven that his feelings was "crush". Your error is interpreting it as one and making assumptions without proof when his feelings for Sakura are in fact romantic love as he made it in clear in chapter 3 and then it matures in part 2 when he starts her taking her more seriously. I need to keep repeating myself because you can't seem to understand no matter how much I try to make it simple for you. I think you need to go back and reread the manga, but you'd still be confused in which case there's no helping you.

 

Kishi didn't write the Last, he's terrible at writing romance, so the movie is not a credible source.

 

The rest of Naruto are indeed silly including the forced parings (NH & SS) and you're silly.

[ThroughWithLove]

 

 

I think this is a mistake on your part to analyze, really. He was wanting to see how Sakura felt about him. Sakura wanted to be acknolwedged by someone else, yes. He wants -Sakura's acknowledgement. Sakura currently wants Sasuke's acknowledgement. Therefore, he wants Sakura to acknowledge -him-, not Sasuke, his rival. He can relate to what sakura is feeling, because he -seeks- that. 

 

Acknowledgment and like don't really mean the same thing from Naruto's standpoint. It's actually more significant given what his life had been like up until the point. So to haphazardly use the same term (i.e. Naruto wants Sakura to "crave his acknowledgment instead of Sasuke's") is both misleading and equivocation without justification.

 

But ultimately, none of that matters. I repeatedly accuse you of offering your opinion in place of an actual argument because that is exactly what you are doing. The fact that Naruto would like Sakura to love him instead of Sasuke does not lead us to the conclusion that he is simply in it to compete with Sasuke. What we see on panel are multiple indications of legitimate and sincere feelings from Naruto. From the way he is drawn during the near-kiss scene to the way he is able to understand her feelings (a point reinforced 186 chapters later), nowhere is this "I only say I love Sakura because I want to beat Sasuke!" angle ever presented. A fact which is all the more clear from your hamfisted efforts to say otherwise (i.e. making up off the wall phrases like "crave his acknowledgment instead of Sasuke's", trying to pass off bench scene as insincere due Naruto's use of deception, trying to pass off the databook's references to love as merely being platonic). We can play all the mental gymnastics in the world or we can simply acknowledge the fact that Naruto is flawed manga, Masashi Kishimoto is a flawed manga author and that Naruto is one of numerous stories with flawed storytelling

 

 

​The falling in love part though? Not canon. We're trying to avoid glorified fanfiction, weren't we? 

 

 

That's nice, but databook says otherwise. Glorified fanfiction is stuff like saying the databook is referring to "platonic love." Hell, that's not even glorified fanfiction. That's just asinine.

 

 

The opening "act' was perfectly fine. He seeks to find if she likes him, he wants acknowledgement. Sakura though wants Sasuke's acknowledgement. He wants hers. You fail to state how in the clear setting of wants Sakura's acknowledgement, Sakura wants Sasuke's, Naruto relates to that, but seeks her to crave him as she does Sasuke, is invalidated. It is very much in line with things. 

 

Nah, it's not fine. Beating Sasuke is the goal and he already knows she likes Sasuke. So in order to get what he wants, he needs to beat Sasuke. All of the awkward hamfisted "craving his acknowledgment" verbal diarrhea is secondary to the stated goal in The Last.

 

 

 

Opinion =/= argument, remember?

 

Yeah . . . I gave an argument. Was even nice enough to put it in the form of a syllogism.  Lets see if you address it.

 

 

 

 

Counter Conclusion: Naruto believes Sakura was in love with Sasuke during childhood flashbacks. My point is we do -not- know the exact moment. It could be during those moments, but it should not be cemented conclusively. That's really all I have to add on this point, as this detail is rather irrelevant to debate at the point at large. 

 

Nope. See Premise 4 and 5. Those premises would include the idea of offering ambiguity to Naruto's perspective (which I would have actually encouraged, since it's one of many ways to set up NS). None was offered and you're basically making an argument from ignorance. Next.

 

 

If you are still clinging to random it's no wonder why you are so off in your understanding here. I don't think I can clarify this more. 

 

Of course you can't . . . because you're wrong. Amazing how simple that makes things.

 

 

At the very least, it is very valid to interpret chapter 3 as in line with the Last, -as- it is valid to see Sasuke as a huge driver for the entire Land of Iron Arc, which is really what the Promise and the Fake Confession exist because in the first place, which I detailed in the "revisionist theory" post that demonstrated to you why the faults you point out really aren't faults.

 

What you demonstrated was your ability to hit the reply button. An ability I'm a bit more than well aware of at this point. And an ability that is preempted by your inability to legitimately answer very simple questions like "Why would Naruto bring up the POAL in response to Sai asking him if he has told Sakura how he feels if Naruto's feelings for Sakura and Naruto's promise to her are unrelated?" According to you (or at least from what I am able to gather from your continual mealy mouthed double talk on the subject), Naruto randomly brought it up. So when I ask he could have just as easily mentioned fried catfish, Santa Claus or Brad Pit, of course you have no answer. Analyzer may be your name, but zealotry is your game.

Edited by ThroughWithLove, 03 October 2017 - 09:54 PM.

[My Living Curse]

The problem with Kishi is that he's too easily influenced (either by editors, crazy fan mail, popularity polls etc) and doesn't stand up for himself and say: "This is MY manga, I want to end it in MY way". Of course it's not to say that listening to editors is bad since we owe the first like 10 YEARS of the manga to his main editor. Heck, wasn't Naruto originally supposed to be about making ramen and a Hokage dog?

 

It's clear that up to Ch.450, the manga was following a plot guideline as there's less plotholes or asspulls, and everything is more cohesive and balanced. Plus it has that feel of how an ending should be. After that though, Kishi was literally making most of it up as he goes as I believe he states in one of his interviews (correct me if I'm wrong). More explosions, giant power ups (to suit Jump's Shonen genre), caving into fandoms, letting Ikemoto do Burrito because he wanted him to publish (really?). The list goes on.

 

Again it's good to take external sources into consideration, but when you're working on a story for 15 years, and you're dedicating your life to your ONLY work, at least have the dignity to end it as you wanted, and don't sell out. 

 

Also Fun Fact: In the author's note for Volume 47 we get this message: "The Plot development toward the finale having been settled, I am drawing full steam ahead! Please continue enjoying Naruto until the end!"

-Kishimoto 2009

 

Of course, take that as you will (I know how some will), but I have NOT seen an author's note from Kishi like that in any volume again, especially in 71 which is "supposedly" the volume of the "final boss". It's clear when he cared and didn't care. Again these are small details, but it's important to take note of them.

[ThroughWithLove]

 

The problem with Kishi is that he's too easily influenced (either by editors, crazy fan mail, popularity polls etc) and doesn't stand up for himself and say: "This is MY manga, I want to end it in MY way". Of course it's not to say that listening to editors is bad since we owe the first like 10 YEARS of the manga to his main editor. Heck, wasn't Naruto originally supposed to be about making ramen and a Hokage dog?

 

 

I 100% agree. His admissions about watching videos from American NaruHina youtubers speaks volumes. So do a number of plot developments that were commonplace in fanfics prior to being introduced. I even remember Kishi asking what fans thought about a fanart that had Naruto in sage of six paths garbs prior to this idea showing up in the manga. One thing is for sure: Very little, if anything, in the last 1/3 of this 700 chapter manga was planned in advance.