Jump to content

Close
Photo

H&E's NaruSaku Debate Thread!


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
19964 replies to this topic

#41 Greed-Sama

Greed-Sama

    The Last Man

  • Jounin
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,509 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Arkansas

Posted 07 April 2012 - 09:45 PM

QUOTE (FoolishYoungling @ Apr 7 2012, 04:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Sasuke with a guy in the end.. I see your also joking around, thought this was a debate thread.. dry.gif

Okay, and I'll believe there may be more to come with InoSai

It's true that another character can pop in, but I mean, we are at the ending here... and as for the other girls, I'll say it again... they are not in the relationship pool. By this I mean, Kishimoto doesn't make his show entirely for pairing, and as we all know, he only uses a specific amount of characters for pairings, and the ones your trying to list are not in there.

Here is your proof: http://www.narutobas...anga/Naruto/574

Your acting like I can't say why I like SasuHina if it's a possibility.

Main pairing pool- Naruto, Sakura, Sasuke, Hinata, Karin <---- other than these 5, I doubt Kishi will really take any time to develop any other pairings, remember, this is Naruto, not Twilight.

I'm also not stating that SasuIno isn't possible, just less likely due to the fact that Ino is also suppose to mature like Sakura, and seeing as how Sasuke doesn't deserve anybody then, how would SasuIno happen? And before you say "well same applies to NaruHina", let me remind you I told you I believed Naruto and Sakura would help Sasuke get Hinata.


"Sasuke with a guy in the end.. I see your also joking around, thought this was a debate thread.."

Kushina-chan is not joking. Stop being condescending.

"Okay, and I'll believe there may be more to come with InoSai"

Same logic that NaruHina fans use, so if you're fine with using this line then you can't refute that line when they argue it back.

"It's true that another character can pop in, but I mean, we are at the ending here... and as for the other girls, I'll say it again... they are not in the relationship pool. By this I mean, Kishimoto doesn't make his show entirely for pairing, and as we all know, he only uses a specific amount of characters for pairings, and the ones your trying to list are not in there."

Actually most of the pairings are hardly given any development. But let's say I humor you. It's not about who is in the character pool. That's like saying I could press a randomizer button and have the 5 characters you mention pair up with one another. It's about the dynamics. So it doesn't matter if Sasuke and Hinata are in the "pool" it only matters if they had a dynamic behind it.

Main pairing pool- Naruto, Sakura, Sasuke, Hinata, Karin <---- other than these 5, I doubt Kishi will really take any time to develop any other pairings, remember, this is Naruto, not Twilight.

Loosely based argument that still fails to get over the development portion of the argument.
75b28593-b271-4fcc-ab30-b8457d3f9708_zps

#42 Grace

Grace

    I am Johnlocked. Formerly known as "Kushina".

  • Chakra Water Walker
  • PipPip
  • 355 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:California

Posted 07 April 2012 - 09:50 PM

QUOTE (FoolishYoungling @ Apr 7 2012, 02:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Sasuke with a guy in the end.. I see your also joking around, thought this was a debate thread.. dry.gif

Okay, and I'll believe there may be more to come with InoSai



Here is your proof: http://www.narutobas...anga/Naruto/574

Your acting like I can't say why I like SasuHina if it's a possibility.

Main pairing pool- Naruto, Sakura, Sasuke, Hinata, Karin <---- other than these 5, I doubt Kishi will really take any time to develop any other pairings, remember, this is Naruto, not Twilight.

I'm also not stating that SasuIno isn't possible, just less likely due to the fact that Ino is also suppose to mature like Sakura, and seeing as how Sasuke doesn't deserve anybody then, how would SasuIno happen? And before you say "well same applies to NaruHina", let me remind you I told you I believed Naruto and Sakura would help Sasuke get Hinata.

"Sasuke with a guy in the end.. I see your also joking around, thought this was a debate thread.. dry.gif"
=/ I'm not joking in the slightest. I'm completely serious about it being a possibility.

"Okay, and I'll believe there may be more to come with InoSai"
"More to come" does not equal "she's in love with him currently".

"It's true that another character can pop in, but I mean, we are at the ending here... and as for the other girls, I'll say it again... they are not in the relationship pool. By this I mean, Kishimoto doesn't make his show entirely for pairing, and as we all know, he only uses a specific amount of characters for pairings, and the ones your trying to list are not in there."
We're close to the ending--or at least, most of us hope we are--but that doesn't exclude the possibility of another character popping in for an epilogue. And I'll rephrase my point: I think the idea of a "relationship pool" is ridiculous. There's nothing that says everyone has to pair off with someone we already know, or that it has to be one of the four you've mentioned. Your sentence about this manga not being entirely for pairing is true, but rather than taking that to mean that he's only going to deliberately show us the people he means to pair off, I believe it means he doesn't have to show us anyone that he intends to pair off because it's not one of the main elements of his story.

"Here is your proof ((link goes here))"
And here's my rebuttal: http://www.narutobas...ga/Naruto/574/2 She was using that picture and her fangirl act as a diversion to keep the guard's suspicion off of her while she worked.

"Your acting like I can't say why I like SasuHina if it's a possibility."
No, I'm saying that simply stating it's possible and that we should "deal with it" while backing it up with weak evidence and support is silly. If you think it's possible, give your reasoning at the start. If that reasoning is debatable, expect it to be debated in a debate thread and not just blindly accepted.

"Main pairing pool- Naruto, Sakura, Sasuke, Hinata, Karin <---- other than these 5, I doubt Kishi will really take any time to develop any other pairings, remember, this is Naruto, not Twilight."
Why is Twilight mentioned here? Though the couples in those books were slapdash and crap, they were given four books to be explored--no matter how terribly it was done. The romance situation in Naruto is not the same in that the romance is not a main focus, and is given attention in short bursts. And as the romance isn't the main focus, it wouldn't be completely out of line for a pairing to happen off-screen and be introduced "randomly". Just because those are the characters shown with the most romantic inclination so far dos not mean that they necessarily have to end up with each other somehow.

"I'm also not stating that SasuIno isn't possible, just less likely due to the fact that Ino is also suppose to mature like Sakura, and seeing as how Sasuke doesn't deserve anybody then, how would SasuIno happen? And before you say "well same applies to NaruHina", let me remind you I told you I believed Naruto and Sakura would help Sasuke get Hinata."
If Ino is supposed to mature like Sakura, then how do you get her being in love with Sai out of the comical interaction they shared? That aside, I didn't say I think SasuIno would happen either, but it could happen in a number of ways. One example: Sasuke is redeemed, wanders back to the village, Ino (eventually) tries befriending him, it slowly works from there. *shrug* I don't ship it, and don't expect it to happen, but it's not impossible--what it is is improbable. And how does your belief affect anything here? You believe that Naruto will end up with Sakura and then help Sasuke "get" Hinata because you believe she's the only girl left available for him. Fabulous. But this is a debate thread; don't tell me what you want to have happen, tell me what you think will happen based on canon fact and evidence rather than suppositions.

#43 CloudMountainJuror

CloudMountainJuror

    Zac the CMJ

  • S-Class Missing Nin
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,726 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:USA

Posted 07 April 2012 - 10:00 PM

Oh, and one more thing:

QUOTE (FoolishYoungling @ Apr 7 2012, 03:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Ino loves Sai.


"The time has come at last for you to learn everything . . .

Fare thee well, Albert, my friend."

 

AboojTi.gif


#44 Gravenimage

Gravenimage

    Heaven and Earth Deity

  • Kyuubi
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,535 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:South Pearl Ponce Puerto Rico

Posted 07 April 2012 - 10:01 PM

QUOTE (BabyVee @ Apr 7 2012, 01:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Really? I can't tell if you're being serious or not...



The problem with your last sentence is the bold. If you THINK that is Kishimoto's intentions but don't know for sure, what's there to bee worried about? Maybe I'm justing reading your post wrong but it does look like Kisi ever confirmed he supports Sakura->Sasuke.

Heck in her last appearence she only thought of Naruto.


Precisely ever since part 2 started Sakura has only thought of Naruto no one else. The times she will think of Sasuke we're the times whenever he was mentioned in a conversation or whenever he was present. So after their first encounter with him at Orochimaru's hideout when he escaped Sakura supported Naruto with a courageous speech, yep she was thinking more about him more than Sasuke. During his training with the rasen-shuriken she was only thinking about Naruto, when she was healing his hand from using the technique on Kakuzu she was only thinking about him. During their search for Sasuke and Itachi she will only think in helping Naruto bring back Sasuke. During the pain invasion all that leads to her confession and the current fourth ninja war arc she wants to help Naruto save the ninja world. So where do Sasuke fit in all of this??? what solid concrete evidence is there that proves that she still loves Sasuke??? Because EVERYTHING she has done since part 2 started has been for Naruto's sake nothing concerning Sasuke.

Edited by Gravenimage, 07 April 2012 - 10:01 PM.

Gravenimage

Lone Wolf of the Grave








#45 Don-kun

Don-kun

    S-Class Missing-nin

  • S-Class Missing Nin
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,688 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Southampton, England.
  • Interests:Music, Electronics, Driving car, Traveling and NaruSaku.

Posted 07 April 2012 - 10:41 PM

QUOTE (Gravenimage @ Apr 7 2012, 06:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Precisely ever since part 2 started Sakura has only thought of Naruto no one else. The times she will think of Sasuke we're the times whenever he was mentioned in a conversation or whenever he was present. So after their first encounter with him at Orochimaru's hideout when he escaped Sakura supported Naruto with a courageous speech, yep she was thinking more about him more than Sasuke. During his training with the rasen-shuriken she was only thinking about Naruto, when she was healing his hand from using the technique on Kakuzu she was only thinking about him. During their search for Sasuke and Itachi she will only think in helping Naruto bring back Sasuke. During the pain invasion all that leads to her confession and the current fourth ninja war arc she wants to help Naruto save the ninja world. So where do Sasuke fit in all of this??? what solid concrete evidence is there that proves that she still loves Sasuke??? Because EVERYTHING she has done since part 2 started has been for Naruto's sake nothing concerning Sasuke.


I thought was only there to keep Sakura feelings still open.
With out changing a things in the story, if you ask Naruto, Sakura, Hinata Sasuke who is the one person they will not want to loose is very clear.

Naruto: still like Sakura and they hasn't been a moment in the manga that will change that and worse after Sasuke try to kill Sakura.

Hinata: Naruto what the did you expected.

Sakura: will clearly choose Naruto.

Sasuke: Itachi. Sasuke what about Sakura msmack.gif then he will th_cussing.gif


That should be clear at this time to all reader that Naruto will always choose Sakura is he have to choose between Sakura or Hinata in a friendly fight, Just to keep out the drama off life or dead situation.

We already see who Sakura choose between Naruto and Sasuke two times in life or dead sitiatio and if it happens again Naruto will be the one.

that alone speak volume.

Edited by donjoseph19, 07 April 2012 - 10:56 PM.


#46 Gravenimage

Gravenimage

    Heaven and Earth Deity

  • Kyuubi
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,535 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:South Pearl Ponce Puerto Rico

Posted 07 April 2012 - 10:52 PM

QUOTE (donjoseph19 @ Apr 7 2012, 02:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I thought was only there to keep Sakura feelings still open.
With changing a thing in the story, if you ask Naruto, Sakura, Hinata Sasuke who id the one person they will not want to loose is very clear.

Naruto: still like Sakura and they hasn't been a moment in the manga that will change that and worse after Sasuke try to kill Sakura.

Hinata: Naruto what the did you expected.

Sakura: will clearly choose Naruto.

Sasuke: Itachi. Sasuke what about Sakura msmack.gif then he will th_cussing.gif


Yes it was proven since Sasuke learned the truth of Itachi from Madara that we find out that he was the most important person in his life after learning all the pain and suffering he endured to protect Konoha and his younger brother. I mentioned it once that Itachi is his most important bond, second comes Naruto but clearly he will choose his brother over him. Itachi is the only person who can save Sasuke from his path of revenge, I simply don't see Naruto pulling that off because his brother its the most important person in his life not Naruto Kishi will have to do some serious developing for this to work. So I asked myself in a different matter where do Sakura fit in all of this??? none she doesn't fit at all because Sasuke has never care that much about her, other than seeing her as a teammate before he went to the dark side of revenge.

Edited by Gravenimage, 08 April 2012 - 12:35 AM.

Gravenimage

Lone Wolf of the Grave








#47 James S Cassidy

James S Cassidy

    Heaven and Earth Deity

  • Banned
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,831 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 07 April 2012 - 11:02 PM

I think we can definitely say that Sasuke has no interest in Sakura. With the fact that he has tried to kill her and didn't think much of it. So, I believe SasuSaku died on that day. I am not so sure with Karin. Ino seems to still have a liking to him, but she hasn't really seen him.

NaruSaku is the only couple so far to show any reciprocation of any kind regardless if you believe it was real or fake. Take that as what you will, but it seems to be the only pairing that has a back and forth confrontation of feelings. I don't really see that with Naruto to Hinata or Sasuke to Sakura.

I don't want to sound mean, but this "anything is possible" statement, while true, is a little tiring to hear. It's kind of common knowledge now that any couple could happen as Kishimoto sees fit. Naruto mostly likely is going to end up with Sakura or Hinata. Relationship with any other girl or guy is lacking in evidence and we can only go on what is given. I am not trying to shoot people down, just saying there is nothing to go off of other than what was given.
My gofundme
https://www.gofundme...c-designer-fund

Δικός σου για να κρατάτε
Σ'αγαπώ

#48 Don-kun

Don-kun

    S-Class Missing-nin

  • S-Class Missing Nin
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,688 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Southampton, England.
  • Interests:Music, Electronics, Driving car, Traveling and NaruSaku.

Posted 07 April 2012 - 11:49 PM

QUOTE (Gravenimage @ Apr 7 2012, 06:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yes it was proven since Sasuke learned the truth of Itachi from Madara that we find out that he was the most important person in his life after learning all the pain and suffering he endured to protect Konoha and his younger brother. I mentioned it once that Itachi is his most important bond, second comes Naruto but clearly he will choose his brother over him. Itachi is the only person who can save Sasuke from his path of revenge, I simply don't see Naruto pulling that off because his brother its the most important person in his life not Naruto Kishi will have to do some serious developing for this to work. So I asked myself in a different matter where do Sakura fit in all of this??? none she doesn't git at all because Sasuke has never care that much about her, other than seeing her as a teammate before he went to the dark side of revenge.



Itachi redeeming Sasuke is the most logical option, but when it comes to fans demand we see all the ass pull Kishi will do (Itachi Sasuke reunion 540 and 573) comes to mind three forced moment by Sakura Hinata and ItaSasu just to please fans, making then look very selfish, the other one depressed and fan girl gating all wild and hormones been lose off seen the two Uchiha brothers.

I still believe Itashi Sasuke reunion shuold be after Naruto and Sasuke battle, but this is Kishi Manga and has mangaka you need to keep people happy about your Manga
don't believe me see what happn to bleach Kubo he did not care about Fans he always focus on his Manga but it drop greatly in popularity. Zero fanservice.


Before people ask why I target those three event

540 Sasuke just try to kill her many time with out thinking it twice, only make people question her mental stability and gain more haters.

Uchiha brother reunion it Makes a lot more sense for Itachi to give Sasuke is final words after he fights before a full redemption since he is the person Sasuke loves the most. why with he still wants to fight Naruto after Itachi's last words and still be reddem in the end.

573 Naruto has never given Hinata any hope for her to make that kind of declaration plus it only make the girl shown more shallow and annoying.

Edited by donjoseph19, 08 April 2012 - 12:05 AM.


#49 Phantom_999

Phantom_999

    Heaven and Earth Deity

  • Kyuubi
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,982 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Canada

Posted 08 April 2012 - 12:05 AM

Yeah I think a new debate thread was a good call. smile.gif Though I regret it had to close after almost reaching the 500th page point

QUOTE (Fyuria'sLeo @ Apr 7 2012, 08:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Its just a guy who doesnt see pairings in the end, and to be honest id be fine with no pairing in the end.


Yeah it would be fine without pairings, At least that way NO ONE will gloat in the other's face. and the bonds of friendship will go strong with out being tarnished by drama.

QUOTE (Darth Krypt @ Apr 7 2012, 09:04 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
That guys not hating exactly. What he said does make sense in a way. Its because the way Kishi write the romance is so ambiguous that no pairing in the end is even a high possibility unless he adds more development from here on now. If you compare with some other mangas, you know that those pairings are much more obvious than NS.


Only cause Kishi is considered throwing a bone for NH Or SS here and there and the fans most dedicated to the pairing to the point of blind loyalty swallow it like a steak. Not that it can't be true; it is one way of interpreting things, But NS is over all pretty clear cut the way I see it.

QUOTE (lord287 @ Apr 7 2012, 10:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
well guys i want to point something about chapter 540 too but don't take me to be NS hater or sakura hater! I love this pairing and want this to happen but

when kishimoto gave the fake confession i got really worried and chapter 540 has took all my hope for NS to happen! I don't think other pairing have higher chances but i am also saying NS have not greater chances than any other pairing

the thing i wanted to point out that results in my losing hope in NS is generally the fake confession and chapter 540


their are 2 ways people see chapter 540

1.(the way most NS see and want to see it including me) that sakura was sad that she used to have a crush on sasuke and was sad by this
2.(the more believable and anti-NS moment) that sakura was sad that the person she loves is not very great like the person giving her the letter assumed but instead had turned evil(this one is definitely more believable by looks of drawing coz if it would have the first thought than kishi must have given a thought of naruto in her mind but no)

this is still not a big problem for me the problem i feel is

1)kishi said in his interview that sakura really loves sasuke(this is really bad for NS)
2) it will now be kind of surprising if sakura choses naruto in the end because of so much fuss kishi had made her go through with sasuke( i mean she still thinks about sasuke with romantic fangirl feelings even after he tried to kill her! that is damn sh*tty)
3) then their was also this fake confession(which was definitely fake because if it would have been a real one she would not have brought up sasuke and not shrugged naruto's hands off when he told her that he hates people who lie to themselves)
4)if sakura do chose naruto in the end i can't see a proper explanation by which it will show that sakura has really come to love naruto after doing fake confession and then kishi made her think of sasuke in chapter 540! if it has to happen i will really need some good explanation because i won't like to accept her to be with naruto in the end after doing fake confession and not showing any romantic feelings towards him lately but showing it towards only sasuke!


This is what i think and i am clearly not saying that SS and NH has more chances than other pairing i am just saying Ns is not on better grounds than SS or NH! For me NH will be worst thing to happen and SS will also be bad whereas NS will be best, but i want to point out that kishi also says himself that he is not so good in romance so e might end up making unworthy and useless pairings like SS and NH!
AFter all he is also the guy being good in action and other stuff gave jiraiya a useless death so their is chances that he messes up the thing in which he is not good at all!!


You can say that, but I think that NS does have better grounds because it has neutral development, The feelings are shown clearly. And so what if Sakura still has feelings for Sasuke? Loving someone and wanting to be with them are two different things. Sakura can love both Naruto and Sasuke, But who she commits to, marries, and has children with(maybe), is what we should be looking forward to. Establishing who Sakura loves is irrelevant at this point in time, cause She can love both of them , but she will eventually choose who tho be with eventually, and we root for Naruto. Same goes for Hinata, She loves Naruto, But will he return her feelings? Will he stay with her? We'll have to see. And when you say Jiraiya had a useless death, What do you mean by that? He gave Naruto clues how to defeat the six paths of Pein. Are you sure that's not your disappointment in his death talking? Because It wasn't useless the way I see it. Regretful maybe, and definitely sad, but not pointless, or useless.

Edited by Phantom_999, 08 April 2012 - 03:56 AM.

3fbe3276d61acb2079b56cd2212a341c14963200


#50 KnS

KnS

    感じの作家

  • ANBU
  • 1,660 posts
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Location:Oregon
  • Interests:Writing

Posted 08 April 2012 - 12:22 AM

QUOTE (tricksie @ Apr 7 2012, 01:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
But if his bond with Sasuke is deeper (and it is, it's the driving force in Naruto's life), and he is capable of distorting and denying the truth, then isn't he more likely to do it with Sakura? After all, isn't Sakura's love of Sasuke part of the Team 7 picture he clings to so fervently.

All this blame is heaped on Sakura, but there is no confirmation of her true feelings towards Sasuke. Only towards Naruto. She may have let go of Sasuke years ago. But the one we are shown still clinging to the past, the one with the image of the shattered picture of Team 7, the one who hyperventilates because he can't handle the truth is Naruto!

The blame of deception is resoundingly heaped on Sakura. But I think it's wrong. I think she went there out of love to protect Naruto, knowing that at least one of their team was going to die. So the path ahead of her was death and/or Naruto's hatred.

But I don't think she lied to him. I think she withheld the truth about the timing. She wouldn't answer "why now" when he asked. But she gave him everything else. And when he challenged her, she stuck to her guns. She knew she was telling the truth, that's why she told him he didn't know what she was thinking. Someone who was lying would have come up with another lie.)

*sigh* I don't know why I'm doing this. I prefer to lurk because I am an outsider here, but after reading pages and pages and pages of exhausting angst about the fate of N/S I'm compelled to chip in what I think -- even if some of it has been said many times before.

Tricksie, I also do not believe Sakura's confession was "fake." I believe she meant most of what she said to Naruto, and wanted to mean the rest. Sakura's heart and conscience were convicted by what Sai told her about Naruto's suffering because of her and Sasuke (Sai confirms this), and I believe the action she took was absolutely meant to be in Naruto's best interest, as well as to prove that, regardless of her past feelings or current confusion, Naruto is her priority. Not Sasuke.

And I really agree that Sakura would have come up with a better lie if she were actually lying. I mean, she had just vowed to herself that she didn't want to get things wrong anymore or make any more mistakes. It would certainly have been a big, stupid mistake to march out into the snow and flat out lie to the guy she had just vowed not to hurt anymore, and then proceed to say she loves him and show him physical affection in front of a group of important witnesses. I know some say she didn't expect to ever have to follow through with a relationship with Naruto, or somehow thought she could cruelly weasel out of what she said later, but that makes no sense when she could have avoided the whole thing with a different lie or just gone directly to Sasuke without confronting Naruto at all. So, yeah, I absolutely believe she meant it when she said she loved him, and that she wanted it said in case things went unrecoverably wrong between them or she was killed by Sasuke.

It was a mistake though, and I think the worst of it was attempting to manipulate the feelings she knows Naruto has for her (after all, she's "the one that idiot fell for") without truly appreciating just how much Naruto loves her, how deeply he is in love with her, and how much Sasuke's redemption figures into Naruto's hope of experiencing that love or his hope of a future in general. While this is labeled by some as cold / selfish / bitchy, I don't see it that way. In my view Sakura had historically taken Naruto's feelings for granted (which Sai confirms and she more or less admits) because he's always been there for her; the guy is nothing if not consistent. But I don't blame Sakura entirely for this. Naruto is also at fault. (More on this later.)

Actually, one of my favorite things about the confession is that it leveled the playing field. Up to that point Sakura had enjoyed the upper hand in the relationship with Naruto since his feelings for her were always on his sleeve for the world to see. But despite his obvious desire to believe she loves him (thinking of the look on his face in those first panels just kills me), Naruto didn't melt into her arms without a thought. Instead he parsed her language and behavior, and realized the timing wasn't right. I loved that Sakura was reduced to saying, "If you don't like me, then just say so!" Naruto didn't deny how he feels about her, but he didn't cave. I think that was really important to put them on a more equal footing in the future.

However, unlike some fans here, Sakura's confession did not sell me on the notion that she is fully aware she is in love with Naruto at this time. I have no doubt she loves him, and loves him more than she loves anyone else. She admires Naruto and respects him, but the head-over-heels romantic element she felt for Sasuke in the past does not seem quite there for Naruto. She's getting closer all the time, but if I look at the evidence (both confession and post-confession) objectively I don't see all aspects of her love unified in Naruto -- yet.

I say this because, again, unlike some on this board I believe Sakura's conversation with Love Letter-nin (#539-540) unfortunately demonstrates that her ideal of romantic love is still associated with Sasuke.

QUOTE
LL-n: "I haven't been able to get you out of my head. I-I wrote a little love letter... Listen, I don't know whether or not I'll survive this war...so I wanted to..."
Sakura: "Thank you...but...there's someone else I..."
LL-n: "Oh...oh well...I figured as much...well, it'd be pretty uncouth to start prying into who this other guy is, so I guess I'll get going...
Sakura: "I'm sorry..."
LL-n: "Hope it works out for you. He must be a really great guy if you're in love with him."
Sakura: *sad / depressed / disappointed face*

It's a linear conversation in the present tense, so unless we're dealing with a translation issue, I don't see how this can be interpreted any way other than that Sakura thought of Sasuke first when questioned about her romantic feelings. I don't like it, but that's what I get from it. This is why I feel, especially in retrospect, that Naruto was right that Sakura was lying to herself (in part) during the confession.

QUOTE (tricksie @ Apr 7 2012, 01:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I just don't think Naruto was even thinking about the veracity of Sakura's confession while she was talking to him.

Sakura was pouring her heart out, and I think Naruto had mentally raced on ahead to the changes that accepting that love would make.

So when he says "I hate people who lie to themselves," he in fact was the only one still lying himself. Everyone else had moved on to this bitter new reality.

I can agree that Naruto was lying to himself, but not that he was the only one. I can agree that he was clinging to his image of Team 7, and lying to himself about how things have changed... lying to himself that it was impossible for Sakura to want her feelings for Sasuke to change, much less in favor of him. I don't think Naruto could see any of that.

But if the layers of Sakura's feelings during the confession are separated -- the feelings she has for Sasuke and the feelings she has for Naruto and his goals -- I think she was lying to herself too. Loving Naruto? True. Naruto being her priority? True. Knowing Naruto is more worthy of love than Sasuke? True. Really being finished with Sasuke? Untrue. Able to let go of her feelings for Sasuke? Untrue. I believe Naruto instinctively and intuitively found the lines that separate her feelings better than she did, and his reading of her feelings seems persuasively proven accurate by her inability to kill Sasuke, Kakashi's comment that she'd seen she "couldn't handle" what needed to be done regarding Sasuke, and later by the conversation with the Love Letter-nin.

The idea that Sakura's love is not yet unified -- that she may mostly love and consciously choose Naruto while still harboring some confused feelings for Sasuke -- is how her confession can be true and untrue at the same time. It's how Naruto can appear to accept some of her confession and not the rest. I strongly believe Sakura will realize that her feelings for Sasuke are those of a teammate and friend, that it's okay to have those feelings, and that they're no longer romantic. But until she does, they stand in the way of a complete love for Naruto.

However, accepting the possibility that Sakura retains some romantic confusion over Sasuke is not the death knell for N/S. In my view, it's the opposite. Sakura is the only lead character whose feelings have not been static. Sasuke has no significant romantic inclinations toward anyone. Naruto has consistently loved Sakura throughout the story. (Hinata's feelings also have been static, but she is an underdeveloped tertiary character who I believe will ultimately be irrelevant to the resolution of shipping in this story.) Meanwhile, Sakura's feelings have been divided between the guys on multiple levels (team bond, as individuals, as love interests) all along, and it is the aspect of her character growth that remains to be resolved. I believe she is the tipping point for the romantic resolution, and Kishimoto is (for obvious reasons) saving it for the end.

I think everything about the way Sakura's feelings have been developing is good for N/S. The whole problem with her love for Sasuke was that it was not based on reality. It was a crush initially formed on perceived qualities that have no value in a real relationship -- not to mention her interest was never returned. By contrast, the elements necessary for a loving, equal partnership based on respect, integrity, and personal character have been slowly building between her and Naruto. They're stumbling down the road toward true love together, as it were. smile.gif

Of course, it would have gone faster if Naruto hadn't spent years enabling Sakura's unhealthy attachment to Sasuke, but that suited Kishimoto's pace and intended development. As I have said elsewhere on this forum, Naruto should own his love for Sakura and realize that his love for her doesn't have to be dependent upon Sasuke's choices or even his redemption. However, I don't expect him to do that until the end, because it's in his nature to never give up until he accomplishes what he believes is right even if it's at great personal sacrifice. It's difficult waiting for it, but all this development has been necessary and it's a testament to Kishimoto's cleverness that it's been so involving. (It would be boring if we knew for sure what and how things were going to happen. wink.gif)

QUOTE (tricksie @ Apr 7 2012, 01:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I think the acceptance of her feelings comes when he rescues her. Her surprise and his physical closeness would all be nice indicators if we didn't have the bang-over-the-head scene of Sasuke in the same strange pose as Madara had all those years ago when Minato rescued Naruto as an infant. It goes to show, unequivocally, that Sakura is Naruto's most precious person, and he knows it now. To compare the love of a parent for a child to his rescuing of Sakura is a bigger, weightier declaration than a simple "I love you" in front of their peers.

I can agree with this too, but again, only if the layers of Sakura's love are separated. I don't believe that scene is proof that Naruto believes/unquestionably accepts that Sakura is in love with him. I think Naruto may well have accepted that Sakura wants to be over Sasuke, and that it's in her best interest to be over him (considering Sasuke's intention to kill her), but that's different than Naruto believing Sakura's feelings for him are everything he wants them to be or that they should be.

I have a question, though. Somewhere above you say that Sasuke represents Naruto's deepest bond, but here you say the scene of Naruto rescuing Sakura from Sasuke shows "unequivocally" that Sakura is Naruto's most precious person. I don't disagree, but I've read the above sentences several times and I'm not 100% sure what you're saying about the parallels with Madara and the love of a parent, etc. Could you elaborate?

Sorry this is such a long post. Yikes.

Edit: I realized I had mistyped the chapters on the Love Letter-nin quote. Sorry!

Edited by KnS, 08 April 2012 - 04:25 AM.


#51 Quinny52

Quinny52

    Numquam Moribimur

  • Academy Teacher
  • PipPipPip
  • 634 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Republik of Mancunia
  • Interests:Anime, Sports, Gym, Martial Arts, Property

Posted 08 April 2012 - 01:08 AM

@KnS - Yeah, a very long post... but one of the most refreshing reads I've had for a while. You should come out of lurking more often, I thouroughly enjoyed reading both yours and tricksie's posts, and you both have touched on a subject I've been thinking about myself. biggrin.gif

Edited by Quinny52, 08 April 2012 - 01:09 AM.

If there's one thing I have learned In my short time on this Earth

Devotion should be owed not earned Only you determine what you're worth

Gustav Wood - Young Guns


#52 Don-kun

Don-kun

    S-Class Missing-nin

  • S-Class Missing Nin
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,688 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Southampton, England.
  • Interests:Music, Electronics, Driving car, Traveling and NaruSaku.

Posted 08 April 2012 - 01:26 AM

Those two post are the most amazing and refreshing
I really feel that way about the confession, but try to avoid commenting I get too many lol for it. rolleyes.gif

#53 redragon88

redragon88

    Legendary Ninja

  • Legendary Ninja
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,562 posts

Posted 08 April 2012 - 03:53 AM

If Kishimoto really intended for Sakura to be lying about loving Naruto then why did he say in an interview when Sakura's confession to Naruto was addressed that he wanted to show Sakura as "An honest girl with a surprisingly stubborn impression"

The only way I can interpret that sentence is:

1) An honest girl: Her feeling for Naruto are real even if they still need to develop further.

2) With a surprisingly stubborn impression: She was stubborn in wanting to make Naruto happy while believing she could cut her bonds with Sasuke so easily.

I can't interpret that statement any other way.

#54 FoolishYoungling

FoolishYoungling

    Jirou is best girl.

  • ANBU
  • 6,158 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:All Blue

Posted 08 April 2012 - 03:59 AM

Sense 5 of you responded to my post, I can't really respond to all 5 of them, so I'll just say this. SasuHina is my crack pairing that I say will happen in 1 single way. Again, I only go from the pairing pool. With the manga evidence we have so far Ino, Karin, and Hinata are the only ones left for Sasuke. I believe Ino will mature, Karin will either be too much of a fan girl, or grow over Sasuke like Sakura, and for Hinata, she has never talked to Sasuke, and there's where my 1 reason came from. Stop criticizing a crack pairing. tongue.gif And as for using NaruHina logic, that is also a lie. I am simply using fan boy logic (oh that's kinda NH logic biggrin.gif). That's where my 1 reason of SasuHina came from: Naruto and Sakura get together, and they see Sasuke and Hinata alone after they got together, so they get them to see each other. This I think would go well because then Kishimoto will keep the Hinata fan base happy, because their princess still gets a main character.

Left Hand to the Future Pirate King

 

Vinsmoke "Black Leg" Sanji

2XtVwF6.png


#55 Phantom_999

Phantom_999

    Heaven and Earth Deity

  • Kyuubi
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,982 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Canada

Posted 08 April 2012 - 04:09 AM

QUOTE (KnS @ Apr 7 2012, 04:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
*sigh* I don't know why I'm doing this. I prefer to lurk because I am an outsider here, but after reading pages and pages and pages of exhausting angst about the fate of N/S I'm compelled to chip in what I think -- even if some of it has been said many times before.

Tricksie, I also do not believe Sakura's confession was "fake." I believe she meant most of what she said to Naruto, and wanted to mean the rest. Sakura's heart and conscience were convicted by what Sai told her about Naruto's suffering because of her and Sasuke (Sai confirms this), and I believe the action she took was absolutely meant to be in Naruto's best interest, as well as to prove that, regardless of her past feelings or current confusion, Naruto is her priority. Not Sasuke.

And I really agree that Sakura would have come up with a better lie if she were actually lying. I mean, she had just vowed to herself that she didn't want to get things wrong anymore or make any more mistakes. It would certainly have been a big, stupid mistake to march out into the snow and flat out lie to the guy she had just vowed not to hurt anymore, and then proceed to say she loves him and show him physical affection in front of a group of important witnesses. I know some say she didn't expect to ever have to follow through with a relationship with Naruto, or somehow thought she could cruelly weasel out of what she said later, but that makes no sense when she could have avoided the whole thing with a different lie or just gone directly to Sasuke without confronting Naruto at all. So, yeah, I absolutely believe she meant it when she said she loved him, and that she wanted it said in case things went unrecoverably wrong between them or she was killed by Sasuke.

It was a mistake though, and I think the worst of it was attempting to manipulate the feelings she knows Naruto has for her (after all, she's "the one that idiot fell for") without truly appreciating just how much Naruto loves her, how deeply he is in love with her, and how much Sasuke's redemption figures into Naruto's hope of experiencing that love or his hope of a future in general. While this is labeled by some as cold / selfish / kitteny, I don't see it that way. In my view Sakura had historically taken Naruto's feelings for granted (which Sai confirms and she more or less admits) because he's always been there for her; the guy is nothing if not consistent. But I don't blame Sakura entirely for this. Naruto is also at fault. (More on this later.)

Actually, one of my favorite things about the confession is that it leveled the playing field. Up to that point Sakura had enjoyed the upper hand in the relationship with Naruto since his feelings for her were always on his sleeve for the world to see. But despite his obvious desire to believe she loves him (thinking of the look on his face in those first panels just kills me), Naruto didn't melt into her arms without a thought. Instead he parsed her language and behavior, and realized the timing wasn't right. I loved that Sakura was reduced to saying, "If you don't like me, then just say so!" Naruto didn't deny how he feels about her, but he didn't cave. I think that was really important to put them on a more equal footing in the future.

However, unlike some fans here, Sakura's confession did not sell me on the notion that she is fully aware she is in love with Naruto at this time. I have no doubt she loves him, and loves him more than she loves anyone else. She admires Naruto and respects him, but the head-over-heels romantic element she felt for Sasuke in the past does not seem quite there for Naruto. She's getting closer all the time, but if I look at the evidence (both confession and post-confession) objectively I don't see all aspects of her love unified in Naruto -- yet.

I say this because, again, unlike some on this board I believe Sakura's conversation with Love Letter-nin (#559-560) unfortunately demonstrates that her ideal of romantic love is still associated with Sasuke.


It's a linear conversation in the present tense, so unless we're dealing with a translation issue, I don't see how this can be interpreted any way other than that Sakura thought of Sasuke first when questioned about her romantic feelings. I don't like it, but that's what I get from it. This is why I feel, especially in retrospect, that Naruto was right that Sakura was lying to herself (in part) during the confession.


I can agree that Naruto was lying to himself, but not that he was the only one. I can agree that he was clinging to his image of Team 7, and lying to himself about how things have changed... lying to himself that it was impossible for Sakura to want her feelings for Sasuke to change, much less in favor of him. I don't think Naruto could see any of that.

But if the layers of Sakura's feelings during the confession are separated -- the feelings she has for Sasuke and the feelings she has for Naruto and his goals -- I think she was lying to herself too. Loving Naruto? True. Naruto being her priority? True. Knowing Naruto is more worthy of love than Sasuke? True. Really being finished with Sasuke? Untrue. Able to let go of her feelings for Sasuke? Untrue. I believe Naruto instinctively and intuitively found the lines that separate her feelings better than she did, and his reading of her feelings seems persuasively proven accurate by her inability to kill Sasuke, Kakashi's comment that she'd seen she "couldn't handle" what needed to be done regarding Sasuke, and later by the conversation with the Love Letter-nin.

The idea that Sakura's love is not yet unified -- that she may mostly love and consciously choose Naruto while still harboring some confused feelings for Sasuke -- is how her confession can be true and untrue at the same time. It's how Naruto can appear to accept some of her confession and not the rest. I strongly believe Sakura will realize that her feelings for Sasuke are those of a teammate and friend, that it's okay to have those feelings, and that they're no longer romantic. But until she does, they stand in the way of a complete love for Naruto.

However, accepting the possibility that Sakura retains some romantic confusion over Sasuke is not the death knell for N/S. In my view, it's the opposite. Sakura is the only lead character whose feelings have not been static. Sasuke has no significant romantic inclinations toward anyone. Naruto has consistently loved Sakura throughout the story. (Hinata's feelings also have been static, but she is an underdeveloped tertiary character who I believe will ultimately be irrelevant to the resolution of shipping in this story.) Meanwhile, Sakura's feelings have been divided between the guys on multiple levels (team bond, as individuals, as love interests) all along, and it is the aspect of her character growth that remains to be resolved. I believe she is the tipping point for the romantic resolution, and Kishimoto is (for obvious reasons) saving it for the end.

I think everything about the way Sakura's feelings have been developing is good for N/S. The whole problem with her love for Sasuke was that it was not based on reality. It was a crush initially formed on perceived qualities that have no value in a real relationship -- not to mention her interest was never returned. By contrast, the elements necessary for a loving, equal partnership based on respect, integrity, and personal character have been slowly building between her and Naruto. They're stumbling down the road toward true love together, as it were. smile.gif

Of course, it would have gone faster if Naruto hadn't spent years enabling Sakura's unhealthy attachment to Sasuke, but that suited Kishimoto's pace and intended development. As I have said elsewhere on this forum, Naruto should own his love for Sakura and realize that his love for her doesn't have to be dependent upon Sasuke's choices or even his redemption. However, I don't expect him to do that until the end, because it's in his nature to never give up until he accomplishes what he believes is right even if it's at great personal sacrifice. It's difficult waiting for it, but all this development has been necessary and it's a testament to Kishimoto's cleverness that it's been so involving. (It would be boring if we knew for sure what and how things were going to happen. wink.gif)


I can agree with this too, but again, only if the layers of Sakura's love are separated. I don't believe that scene is proof that Naruto believes/unquestionably accepts that Sakura is in love with him. I think Naruto may well have accepted that Sakura wants to be over Sasuke, and that it's in her best interest to be over him (considering Sasuke's intention to kill her), but that's different than Naruto believing Sakura's feelings for him are everything he wants them to be or that they should be.

I have a question, though. Somewhere above you say that Sasuke represents Naruto's deepest bond, but here you say the scene of Naruto rescuing Sakura from Sasuke shows "unequivocally" that Sakura is Naruto's most precious person. I don't disagree, but I've read the above sentences several times and I'm not 100% sure what you're saying about the parallels with Madara and the love of a parent, etc. Could you elaborate?

Sorry this is such a long post. Yikes.


I agree dude. Good job 111191.gif I also believe Sakura's confession was true except for the Sasuke part. It just wasn't well received. by the way, What are your thoughts on Chapter 540?

3fbe3276d61acb2079b56cd2212a341c14963200


#56 PachucoDesigns

PachucoDesigns

    Chuunin

  • Banned
  • PipPipPip
  • 560 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 08 April 2012 - 04:20 AM

QUOTE (Phantom_999 @ Apr 8 2012, 05:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I agree dude. Good job 111191.gif I also believe Sakura's confession was true except for the Sasuke part. It just wasn't well received. by the way, What are your thoughts on Chapter 540?


If you think the confession was true, why do you think it was not well received?
On the morning of Wednesday, April 11th, 2012, my Aunt Karla passed away. She was my mother's baby sister, and my coolest aunt when I was a kid. She was the best babysitter ever, and she was like an older sister to me.

Karly, I don't know if you can hear this. I am not a believer, I haven't been since Sheryl died. But if you can, I want you to know that I'm truly sorry for everything bad I've ever said about you. When you were suffering, I should have been there to help you. I should have visited. I should have encouraged you to leave the house and get a job, to be active and alive the way you used to be.

I promise that I will do everything that I can to be successful and a good person, to make you proud the way you would have wanted me to. No matter what I said, I loved you. And I will always love you. Rest in Peace, you will never be forgotten.

#57 FoolishYoungling

FoolishYoungling

    Jirou is best girl.

  • ANBU
  • 6,158 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:All Blue

Posted 08 April 2012 - 04:22 AM

QUOTE (Phantom_999 @ Apr 8 2012, 05:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I agree dude. Good job 111191.gif I also believe Sakura's confession was true except for the Sasuke part. It just wasn't well received. by the way, What are your thoughts on Chapter 540?

I agree with you on this on phantom. That was a amazing post. happy.gif

Left Hand to the Future Pirate King

 

Vinsmoke "Black Leg" Sanji

2XtVwF6.png


#58 CloudMountainJuror

CloudMountainJuror

    Zac the CMJ

  • S-Class Missing Nin
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,726 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:USA

Posted 08 April 2012 - 04:40 AM

QUOTE (FoolishYoungling @ Apr 7 2012, 10:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Sense 5 of you responded to my post, I can't really respond to all 5 of them, so I'll just say this. SasuHina is my crack pairing that I say will happen in 1 single way. Again, I only go from the pairing pool. With the manga evidence we have so far Ino, Karin, and Hinata are the only ones left for Sasuke. I believe Ino will mature, Karin will either be too much of a fan girl, or grow over Sasuke like Sakura, and for Hinata, she has never talked to Sasuke, and there's where my 1 reason came from. Stop criticizing a crack pairing. tongue.gif And as for using NaruHina logic, that is also a lie. I am simply using fan boy logic (oh that's kinda NH logic biggrin.gif). That's where my 1 reason of SasuHina came from: Naruto and Sakura get together, and they see Sasuke and Hinata alone after they got together, so they get them to see each other. This I think would go well because then Kishimoto will keep the Hinata fan base happy, because their princess still gets a main character.

We'll stop criticizing it when you start acting like it is, indeed, a crack pairing. The point of a crack pairing is that it has no chance of happening, yet you persist that it can happen. Make up your mind already, man.

"The time has come at last for you to learn everything . . .

Fare thee well, Albert, my friend."

 

AboojTi.gif


#59 FoolishYoungling

FoolishYoungling

    Jirou is best girl.

  • ANBU
  • 6,158 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:All Blue

Posted 08 April 2012 - 04:50 AM

QUOTE (zacrathedemon5 @ Apr 8 2012, 04:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
We'll stop criticizing it when you start acting like it is, indeed, a crack pairing. The point of a crack pairing is that it has no chance of happening, yet you persist that it can happen. Make up your mind already, man.

I view on a crack pairing is that, it can happen, if it has 3 requirements met:

1. In same anime

2. show is still running

3. both characters are put in the pairing pool of the series

I based my hopes on SasuHina on 1 reason.. which I'm not stating for the 100th time. All the other crack pairings in Naruto don't meet the same standards as SasuHina sense they are not in the pairing pool.

Left Hand to the Future Pirate King

 

Vinsmoke "Black Leg" Sanji

2XtVwF6.png


#60 CloudMountainJuror

CloudMountainJuror

    Zac the CMJ

  • S-Class Missing Nin
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,726 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:USA

Posted 08 April 2012 - 04:55 AM

QUOTE (FoolishYoungling @ Apr 7 2012, 11:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I view on a crack pairing is that, it can happen, if it has 3 requirements met:

1. In same anime

2. show is still running

3. both characters are put in the pairing pool of the series

I based my hopes on SasuHina on 1 reason.. which I'm not stating for the 100th time. All the other crack pairings in Naruto don't meet the same standards as SasuHina sense they are not in the pairing pool.

I'm sorry, but I can't take it seriously anymore. NaruSaku goes by logic, and SasuHina defies all senses of logic. Both in the "pairing pool"? Sure. Doesn't mean that them getting together would make any sense whatsoever. There is no development between them. At least acknowledge that you're in the same league as the other pairing fans that don't consider canon, and we'll leave you alone because then you won't be contradicting yourself.

"The time has come at last for you to learn everything . . .

Fare thee well, Albert, my friend."

 

AboojTi.gif





2 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 2 guests, 0 anonymous users