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Kishimoto Is The Most Sexist Misogynist Manga Writer In History, Read This Topic To Learn Why


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#1 BestSasuHinaSupporter

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Posted 11 July 2017 - 09:44 PM

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#2 Yuckfire

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 09:04 AM

I commend you on your research and dedication.

Though I must respectful disagree.

 

 

Naruto is a shonen manga, its geared towards boys so of course there will be more boys than girls. Kishimoto is not a misogynist, he just doesn't know how to handle character writing for many of his characters and the females just happen to get it worse because there is less of them.

 

 

People say this exact same thing to Toriyama despite the fact that his first successful manga was about a robot girl. 



#3 Honestly

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 07:58 PM

Man I always liked your posts but I could not read true all of that I come to conclusion a long time now that any character that Kishi find a treat to Naruto power Kishi Nerf them neji shino kiba yes even kiba part 1 neji was so op Naruto bearly beated him and it was really the kyuubi that beated him.shino with is bugs along can beat Naruto only plot could save naruto because he's MC Kishi Just didn't bother with them because he's not a good writer.some off the characters you show are just side characters so he have a excuse not to be bother with them bad writing Sasuke get more development than Naruto because did you read Kishi original work for Naruto it was crap I don't think it would have add 3 chapters because honestly he have no idea what he's doing. anyway great posts

Edited by Honestly, 12 July 2017 - 08:00 PM.


#4 sushi.

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 08:30 PM

Of course Kishi is sexist..I don't believe that's up for debate.

 

It goes from blatant to subtle to casual to violent sexism. Putting Sakura up with Sasuke is misogynistic in itself. Other than that, Chiyo literally said she had not seen Sakura's courage in any woman before, only in men.(lmaooXDD?) Kishi's constant mockery of Hinata is sexist. Not writing a bit of solution to Ino and Sakura's relationship. When fans complained about Sakura he thought it was because she wasn't cute enough. When Sakura got her seal, she had to be saved two minutes later just to make no misunderstandings that she was actually equal to her male comrades.

 

The most sexist mangaka in history though? That's an overdramatic, untrue title.. He does some good things, as he never sexualized his female characters, and characters like Temari, Konan, Ino, Tsunade, and Kushina are written quite well.


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#5 gamma

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Posted 13 July 2017 - 06:32 PM

TL;DR.

 

He doesn't know how to write women, he's stated this in the past before. So he falls back on old, traditional gender roles that everyone—including himselfknows. Maybe even he prefers it that way cause it's easier too. I hate it altogether.

 

One thing that pissed me off though: In a Naruto: Ninja Storms game (forgot which #), Kushina uses a frying pan as a her weapon. I honestly think she's more capable than, that seeing she was a ninja herself, and not her belonging to one of the most powerful clans in the shinobi world. It's sweet that they included Naruto's family as playable characters in the game but I mean, come on.



#6 rocci

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Posted 13 July 2017 - 07:23 PM

Kishi did put/discard her back in war arc.

I mostly agree with what lux and sushi said.
Personally I don't see him as sexiest writer but more like a product from patriarchal society.
While his writing in naruto can be consider as sexiest, I don't think that his intention in the first place.

I don't think it has to do with writing a female character but more like his writting skill as a writer. He can't write character for kitten.

#7 rocci

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Posted 13 July 2017 - 08:58 PM

 
I'll disagree on his skill strongly, but want to actually more so comment about the patriarchal society element, which is very true, and still prevalent in the culture. 

He's not that skillful.

#8 gamma

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Posted 13 July 2017 - 09:29 PM

 

It's a comedic device here. Definitlely fine not to like it, as it does have domicile connotations, and can fit into a gender portrayal essay. That is about the game however, not about Kishimoto, so it doesn't fit here. 

 

Kishimoto didn't know how to write women at the start, yes. So he asked advice and explored. There's an interview where he asked someone how to do Sakura's confession scene. This is actually really smart, a lot of writers struggle writing the opposite gender, and asking them is a good resource point. He gets better with them as he goes, but it's this initial struggle you notice in his Sakura, and it's one of the reasons why I admire him, that he stuck it out with her despite points that she was not the best of his characters writing wise, choosing to try to improve her rather than do the easier decision of discarding/putting her back. 

 

Well they are using his characters. So yes, I do think it fits here. I found it a little funny at first but irked me later on.

 

That's great that he asked for advice, it showed he somewhat cared! Too bad that same concern and care didn't show towards the end when he got lazy and rushed it.

 

I like what he did with her at the beginning of Shippudden. She was on a roll, and I wanted her to stay on that steady, upward road. I saw that he put in some effort into her, which I too applaud. I saw potential that excited me and I was instantly hooked.

 

But at some point, he gave up for whatever reason. Sakura literally was dead weight towards the end. He dragged her character to the finish line just so it could be over with, then domesticated and sidelined her so he wouldn't have to deal with her and her declining character/popularity anymore.

 

It's like a procrastinating college student who started out his 10 page essay extremely well,—who wanted to come back to it but ultimately forgot about it—but by time the due date was nearby, he panicked and half-assed the rest of it. I did not feel any sort of commitment from him whatsoever when it came to Sakura by time it ended.

 

He tried, but he could have done way better writing women. It's a shame.



#9 Charger76

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Posted 13 July 2017 - 10:51 PM

 
Well they are using his characters. So yes, I do think it fits here. I found it a little funny at first but irked me later on.
 
That's great that he asked for advice, it showed he somewhat cared! Too bad that same concern and care didn't show towards the end when he got lazy and rushed it.
 
I like what he did with her at the beginning of Shippudden. She was on a roll, and I wanted her to stay on that steady, upward road. I saw that he put in some effort into her, which I too applaud. I saw potential that excited me and I was instantly hooked.
 
But at some point, he gave up for whatever reason. Sakura literally was dead weight towards the end. He dragged her character to the finish line just so it could be over with, then domesticated and sidelined her so he wouldn't have to deal with her and her declining character/popularity anymore.
 
It's like a procrastinating college student who started out his 10 page essay extremely well,who wanted to come back to it but ultimately forgot about itbut by time the due date was nearby, he panicked and half-assed the rest of it. I did not feel any sort of commitment from him whatsoever when it came to Sakura by time it ended.
 
He tried, but he could have done way better writing women. It's a shame.

Reading that reminded me that I felt like sakura and hinata both had sooo much more potential to grow, and I thought it would have been great for that to be discovered in the end to wrap up a good story. I like both characters, I do like sakura a little more despite her selfless love of sasuke that didn't have development to that level of love, but I don't dislike hinata, just too much naruto-kun. But regardless of ships, I thought they could they could have made for a killer ending

For me, I'll admit it did revolve a little around ships and a gutsy ninja ending for sakura where she realizes the person who has been by her side and "makes her smile the most" which would be naruto. It would also involve a determined hinata seeing naruto loves sakura and moving on from naruto, strongly realizing all he has done for her to improve herself mentally. I would have made it more of a upbeat moment, not a depressing one. She could then take her new found determination to lead her clan. It would still be a happy ending for everyone and you can ship her with kiba, imo. Also It's not like sasuke is a type to get jealous and we don't really see love from him at that point so he has his journey and takes Karin with. Still sounds happy for everyone to me.

(Sorry I got sidetracked there for a second)

I don't like the whole Kishi is a trash writer thing because he did make a series that we enjoyed for the most part and it was one of the most popular series in history. I enjoyed 90% of his work. All work has flaws and sure the ending is very important and he did make a few mistakes (Imo of course) he did make an enjoyable series overall. I'm no doubt dissapointed with how it ended and I still haven't fully gotten over it (although I more recently saw everything so it hasn't been like three years).

We all can agree it could have been wrapped up better (although it is easy to talk about things in hindsight) and I like to imagine what could have been. Subjectively, NS was what it was leading too, but not only that it would have made for a smoother and more full circle ending that could have sealed the deal on the development of the characters and series as a whole.

P.s. I guess I should talk about the topic. Don't think he is sexist, but he did appeal to some female stereotypes. He has said he can do better at female characters and seeked help in instances. For every character we see something, we can find another that we love. He just left some things on the table. I think the issue is that the ending was greatly impacted by two of the bigger female characters in the anime/manga so we look back at what could have been and be mad at it and thus towards the characters.

Edited by Charger76, 13 July 2017 - 10:55 PM.


#10 gamma

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Posted 14 July 2017 - 05:45 AM

Kishimoto didn't necessarily struggle writing women though, as there are scenes that they do very well, it's just more that the men dominated in terms of how much space they would take next to their female counterparts. I think the general consensus is we wanted more shown of them, them doing more, them in more plots. I might chronicle a list of things he does really well, but you'll notice that many characters just have a few moments, or just one that is really good.

 

Good points Charger, as well.

 

They did well, but they could have done and contributed much more. Alas.

 

& yes, esp. at bolded.



#11 MoonStar

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Posted 14 July 2017 - 04:24 PM

Lol if you're talking about sexism you should check out Wolf Guy. The main female character gets gang raped over the course of 20 chapters. This is broadcasted live to the public and she then has to go live with wolves in Alaska. That's the end.

 

Or S.H.I.T.surakuen which centers around a school where the males subjugate, sexual assault and physically abuse the female characters for dozens of chapters and the MC goes around rescuing these girls. In the last few chapters, the boys break down crying that they were the real victims because "the system" forced them to do it and in the most hilarious depiction of Stockholm syndrome I've ever seen, the girls go back to their abusers and start romantic relationships with them.

 

Berserk's main female character is just a plot device linking the protagonist and villain together. She gets raped and mindbroken just to get back at Guts and has since been an empty husk. Not to mention the troll mass rape and other rape that happens in that manga. Hell, a horse almost raped a girl.

 

Btooom!'s main female character is simply there to be the subject of sexual assaults. She almost gets raped twice and somehow doesn't develop a hatred of men. She instead gives up her virginity to her boyfriend a few days after almost being raped. She's also 16 btw and her bf is 22.

 

In that new manga Jagaaaaaan on mangastream this guy has been going around raping women which is in every single chapter.

 

Then there's like 50% of Shoujo manga where the MCs have the personality of a wet blanket and their only objective is to get some hot guy to notice them.

 

Naruto's females are bad but believe me Kishimoto is far from the most sexist mangaka. You ought to broaden your horizons. Naruto had a poor ending but its simply another bad ending to an otherwise decent manga. These are a dime a dozen. I understand Naruto was the only or one of few mangas a lot of westerners followed but its time to get over it and move on. You'll find plenty other manga with equally or even worse endings in the future. And some with much better.


Edited by MoonStar, 14 July 2017 - 04:27 PM.


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#12 rocci

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Posted 15 July 2017 - 03:18 PM

@moonstar
Casca is like sakura with the grim dark thing and more badass.

#13 Phantom_999

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Posted 15 July 2017 - 09:12 PM

This is a controversial topic so tread carefully. What I WILL say though is that while he made himself LOOK sexist in the end, the story up until late in the game was not too bad in the treatment of females, and truth be told by western standards Japanese cultural thinking is sexist so I don't imagine he's the only one, and whether he is the worst of them is subjective


Edited by Phantom_999, 15 July 2017 - 09:13 PM.

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#14 hinataiscreepy

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Posted 16 July 2017 - 10:57 PM

I just think its kinda ironic that it was a western male audience that ultimately lead him to that terrible ending. I know SP is a japanese studio but if our country was so advanced we would have seen the implication and everything wrong with the whole worshipping Hinata in the first place.



#15 Branden

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 10:40 AM

I think the best thing to say here is that it's a work of fiction. It's a world of might makes right where whoever is the most powerful is chosen to rule over the tribe and has to manage the various clans within the tribe. Can we really expect such a place to match up to modern ideals of equality? Demonizing Kishimoto because he didn't write a perfectly fair and equal world is just plain silly. People should be allowed to write whatever fictional works they want without fear of being harassed. It's not like he wrote his own philosophical manifesto using Naruto as a reference for what a perfect society is like.

 

Putting that aside it's pretty clear that at some point Kishimoto became a puppet of Jump and as we all know Jump is a business that wants to make money. So yes many changes were made to the story such as drawing it out as long as possible, changing editors, and increased concern over the criticism of the fans. As such a sort of negative feedback loop occurs. A character like Sakura was poorly written because Kishimoto was inexperienced in writing female characters and as such fans disliked her causing her to have a lesser role in the series which made her disliked even more and you can see how this got out of hand.

 

So don't hate on Kishimoto or groups of people or even Jump. As something gets bigger it gets more and more likely to get corrupted and lose what made it great in the first place. That's why it's so rare for things to get better by the end rather than worse.


Edited by Branden, 18 July 2017 - 10:42 AM.

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#16 James S Cassidy

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Posted 20 July 2017 - 12:22 AM

I think he is sexist, but not for the same reason.

I think he is sexist for two reasons.
1. For having the "important woman" defined only by their love life and their "crushes"
2. For treating men like nothing more than trophy's to be won by woman and ignoring their emotions entirely.
 

Whether he knew he was being sexist is up for debate.

 

I think the best thing to say here is that it's a work of fiction. It's a world of might makes right where whoever is the most powerful is chosen to rule over the tribe and has to manage the various clans within the tribe. Can we really expect such a place to match up to modern ideals of equality? Demonizing Kishimoto because he didn't write a perfectly fair and equal world is just plain silly. People should be allowed to write whatever fictional works they want without fear of being harassed. It's not like he wrote his own philosophical manifesto using Naruto as a reference for what a perfect society is like.

 

Putting that aside it's pretty clear that at some point Kishimoto became a puppet of Jump and as we all know Jump is a business that wants to make money. So yes many changes were made to the story such as drawing it out as long as possible, changing editors, and increased concern over the criticism of the fans. As such a sort of negative feedback loop occurs. A character like Sakura was poorly written because Kishimoto was inexperienced in writing female characters and as such fans disliked her causing her to have a lesser role in the series which made her disliked even more and you can see how this got out of hand.

 

So don't hate on Kishimoto or groups of people or even Jump. As something gets bigger it gets more and more likely to get corrupted and lose what made it great in the first place. That's why it's so rare for things to get better by the end rather than worse.

I agree, but one thing still sticks out like a splinter...

He let it all happen. Whether it was jump or SP or anyone else...he let them do that to his characters. Even if he couldn't stop them...you could at least say something against it or mention how he dislikes the ways he showed some of his characters the way they did....I mean, it wouldn;t be the first time a writer or mangaka has said such a thing against something else.


Edited by James S Cassidy, 20 July 2017 - 12:25 AM.

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#17 tricksie

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Posted 18 February 2018 - 01:20 PM

Thread locked. User banned. He stole content from this awesome blog post about sexism in Naruto. It's big, well researched and thought provoking. Go check it out there. 

 

 

If you want to continue the discussion about sexism in Naruto, please start a new thread. It's ok to tackle big issues and even quote another source (that's linked and supporting your own original opinion), it's never ok to lift someone else's hard work and pass it on as your own. It will never be tolerated here. The result is a swift ban and deletion of content.

 

Thread is locked, but remains visible as a reminder.






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