86 replies to this topic

[Hopestar]

Kets add Karin into the mix as well

Shes strong and unique in her abilites, Sasuke would not have chosen her otherwise, and Sasuke himself said hed always planned on recruiting her. more importantly Sasuke said this to her and to her alone of the three members of Team hawk

Karin I need you. when has Sasuke ever said he needed anyone? the answer is Never untill Karin.

Shes smart not sakura class but defiantley intelligent, and Sasuke listens to her.

Shes strong willed and firey as well. She doesnt put up with crap from suigetsu and shes called Sasuke on his BS at least once.

as to ehr being a fangirl. Im of the strong opinion that that is a highly mistaken assumption about her,

first she has only ""fangirled"" on Sasuke 5 times in the manga. thats right 5 and all of them were in private or in ehr mind.

also one of them was done as a comedic moment.

Second unlike Fangirls who always support their guy and never disagree with him. Karin has called Sasuke weak at leats once and called him a dumbass on another occasion. She has disagreed with him as well.

lastly she has the one thing that makes for a true relationship in manga. Like Sakura and Naruto before her. She has his trust.

She was shown this trust when Sasuke not once but twice told her to stay behind him

In his BLIND SPOT. A place where someone like Sasuke would be most guarded since his greatest power is his eyes, and his back is where hsi eyes cant see.

And she ahs evoked more emotion out of him then anyone save Naruto or itachi has. when she was being consumed by Amtaeratsu he nearly threw himself into the flames to save her. he even gained a greater power to control those flames when he needed to to save her.

and when she saved him by having him bite her.

he thanked her

HE THANKED HER.

all she said about it


yeah

thats it.

Karins a strong character and one who stands near Sasuke as an equal. she doesnt take crap from him or anyone, and shes going to have an amazing affect on the story and Sasuke before this story is done.

I'm surprise you took real note of that then again the majority of us focus primary on NS none of the other pairings save NH & SS.

I think Kishi needs to improve his females. He made maybe be a guy but he make his girls total kick-ass scale with the boys. If women are compatible to develop a male main or lead character damn well should men be able to do the same with female?

[dl316bh]

I think a lot of the problem is being missed here. I don't think the problem is really a gender issue. Personally, I think it's a hell of a lot broader.

Kishi's not bad at developing female characters; he's bad at developing supporting casts. Aside from the main trinity, Kishi seemed to create most of the initial characters of his manga for specific purposes; most of which amounted to one major scene somewhere in the manga. Most of the characters had little development outside of that one point - often used to develop or showcase Naruto or occasionally one of the other two - and were quickly forgotten. By the end of part one most of the supporting cast outside of the Sanins - and hell, you could make a case for them too - had reached that point and were subsequently forgotten aside from quick fanservice cameos. In fact, the same could be said for part two characters whom have come and then gone; most of the Akatsuki are good examples in that regard.

If anything, it amounts to a lot of poor planning. He hinged a lot of characters on one moment in service to one of the chief characters in the story and didn't seem to think much further than that, quite literally seeming to have no clue what to do with them after that. On the one hand, the three are the emotional core of the manga, but a lack of attachment to the other characters makes a few chief events of the manga amount to a lot of sound and fury with little substance. This is why some of the death cop-outs really pissed me off; a lot of the time they were the substance of some characters who did next to nothing else to that point, only to be undone in eight chapters or less before disappearing. It wouldn't have been such a problem if there was time between, but this tended to happen right after the characters symbolic death scene. Which ended up meaning nothing but the symbolic death of their purpose in the manga.

Sometimes I feel like a lot of the manga's overabundant cast are little more than canon fodder. Kind of like a red shirt that never actually dies. They show up for a bit, do little and are quickly forgotten.

The trinity obviously have a lot of development - Sakura too, as while she may not always get physical showcases she's still had a hell of a lot of development over the course of the manga - but aside from that many of the characters amount to someone you might pass on the street or have a quick conversation with; you may know a tidbit or two about them and they certainly have a story to tell in some way or another, but you'll probably never hear it.

Edited by dl316bh, 08 November 2009 - 02:42 AM.

[ciardha]

I rechecked the polls and overall that is correct so I acknowledge my mistake on this part. However, Sakura started off #5 and has steadily declined to #12 as of the latest poll.

Nope, #6 in the 7th poll published in the databook, and in most she was top 10, so you were totally wrong.

As I told Kodachi this is all OPINION. Just because the females are given some fanservice they are automatically discredited as bad examples? Yeah the reason Naruto doesn't have female fanservice is because it covers the yaoi market with all the NaruSasu hints. And how exactly do you know that One Piece doesn't appeal to female fans? 80% of the fanfiction consists of yaoi writing so it must do something to attract females. I've broken down Naruto females in terms of personality, abilities, plot significance and why they are badly developed. Mind doing the same for One Piece and/or Bleach so I can see exactly how they are simply used for just fanservice?

Rukia is mostly damsel in distress she's about as "useful" as Sakura was in part 1 of Naruto, ditto Orohime + fanservice, Matsumoto is not anywhere near the fighter even Ichigo is + used for fanservice, basically any female that has breasts has been fanserviced numerous times, that is bad writing of female characters. There's something there, but the irritant of all the fanserving just leaves me cold.

Nami her personality consists of greed and a temper, used as fanservice, Robin fanservice fetish object, does she even have a personality? Female villians- fanservice sexual fetish objects. It's a really dull read to start with if you want characters that grow and develop- they don't, and then with the way female characters are stereotyped and drawn as sex objects I find it really female reader unfriendly, about like the worst of the American superhero comics.

Online fanfiction gives a distorted picture of any fandom- females write most the fanfiction in any fandom (it's just most common way female fans in any fandom interact with the story and has been so since at least the original Star Trek was on the air- when the phenomenon of fanfiction was first noticed by pop culture critics )- even in Marvel and DC comics, and real female readership of Marvel and DC comics has been at all time low of 5% for the last decade. At it's highest Marvel had 35% female readership in the early 1990's- when they wrote female friendly stories where couples got together and stayed together. Once the EOC changed in 1994 and almost all those couples were broken up and the emphasis went back to fights all the time, readership dropped from a half million for the top titles, to 200,000 in one year- most that loss in female readers- female readership plunged to 10% in that one year, and as the policy continued and then female character fanservice got worse it dropped to an all time low of 5%, which has never risen. Even in the 1960's- at the former nadir of female readership, it was 10%.

The real picture of readership gender percentages is observing who picks up the books in bookstores and libraries. I work at a library with a large manga collection. One Piece is no where near as popular with American readers, male or female than Jump's other two very popular titles- Bleach and Naruto.

Naruto is far and away number 1 of the Shonen titles, and actually slightly more popular with female readers than males. (Because it is never been just an shonen action manga, and that's particularly true in the second part of the manga- much of the explosive growth in female readers of Naruto came with part 2 of the manga, when Kishimoto took the story on a deeper more philosophical turn, and relationships also took a stronger role with a more serious approach, drawing it closer to what's seen in Josei manga like Machiko Satonaka's.)

Book store sales agree with this popularity and gender breakdown of sales.

Another key place to observe true gender interest ratios is anime conventions, look at panels devoted to series and who attends them, genders and numbers of cosplayers for a series. Again in the shonen catagory it's Naruto far and away on all points, and the most female cosplayers- many of the Naruto cosplayers even are females. Bleach is the only shonen manga that even challenges Naruto at all in number of cosplayers, and males tend to be more than half of them, with not as much female crossplay (women dressing as male characters). You see more Pokemon cosplayers than One Piece coplayers. It's rare to see any girls dressed as any One Piece character, even male characters. Typically you see about one guy dressed as Luffy and that's it.

Great you described her personality. Besides punching a summon and healing some fodders, what has she really done for the plot? Or shown any growth besides her love triangle?

What do you think developing female characters means? Character development means growth in depth of personality.

And on your "points", hmm I think healing Kankuro in minutes when even Chiyo was stumped at Sasori's poison, healing Naruto's burns from the Kyuubi, bringing Hinata back from near death, fighting Sasori, acting as the Hokage once Tsunade went into a coma- ordering the evacuation, leading the search for injured ninja and planning on finding Yamato to deal with Kyuubi Naruto, and killing a summons that even male jonin ninja were running for their lives from in one blow and having a blast doing it, being shown as not only an elite level medic nin, a skilled fighter (even scaring Kakashi during the second bell test) but she also works in the codebreakers department is pretty freaking impressive. It's amusing how you try to act like most that stuff didn't happen and belittle the few things you note. Even this current arc is not about the triangle on Sakura's side, only on Naruto side. Sakura made her choice for Naruto some time back. On Sakura's side this is about making things right with Naruto- stopping the POAL (at least the part that was about her- on that she suceeded with Naruto), trying to get Naruto to the point she is emotionally about Sasuke- at least intellectually/conciously cutting off any sense of a bond to Sasuke, cutting off even the team mate bond (She didn't suceed there, Naruto is obstinately obsessed with believing he can save Sasuke), because she agrees with Shikamaru's conclusions. In the face of Naruto's refusal to stop chasing after Sasuke, Sakura decides as a leader that her plan B has to go into effect, Sasuke has to be taken down now. Plan A, the one she'd hoped would work- was revealing her feelings for Naruto, and getting Naruto to give up the chase for Sasuke and come back to Konoha. Now she's going with the tougher, more dangerous plan because she feels it's the only option left.

Another description of personality. If you like these characteristics that's fine and dandy, but that doesn't change any of the fact that she has done nothing great as a Hokage and her legacy will always be that she was the worst one to run the position.

Careful, your misogyny is showing. That is completely contrary to what Kishimoto says in the manga. In the manga she is better Hokage than Sarutobi- she stands up to the elders and Danzo, has spies watching him, restores Konoha to it's most powerful position since the 1st Hokage, makes it highly prosperous, solidifies the alliance with Suna to a true one- something Sarutobi wasn't able to do with any of the countries, was strong enough a leader that the Raikage actually used diplomatic means with no underhanded stuff like he did with Sarutobi, etc... All this in just three years.

Grossly exaggerated based on a simple skirmish and you are already labeling her faster than Sasuke because Sai blocked him? The transitive property of inequalities does not apply to this as everyone knows that Sasuke is easily the top tier in the universe and Karui is a laughable comparison. And she is not even a relevant female who has no backstory and appears in a couple chapters.

Amusing, again with the misogynist diminishing.

Yeah she took down an exhausted Sasuke who had fought two kages and a bunch of their subordinates, very impressive all right /sacrasm. And beat a Mizukage we know nothing about. I will give credit that Kishimoto created another female Kage, but again she is of no relevance to make a huge difference.

Again with the misogynist diminishing that distorts the events in the manga. That Mizukage she took down was a host for the Sanbi and thus a very deadly fighter.

Shikamaru forfeited their fight and she beat a Tayuya who was already broken down by Shikamaru. And she has done nothing of relevance in part 2.

Totally wrong on all parts. Shikamaru forfeited because she was essentially his equal- as he said, he was would have been out of chakra in 5 seconds, and she wouldn't have been. He just conceded the inevitable. Tayuya wasn't beaten down by Shikamaru, she had him beaten down, she would have won if Temari hadn't shown up (same as all the other fights the Sand Sibs intervened on. Temari took out Tayuya without even breaking a sweat.

And you seem to be under some mistaken idea that development is only about being the most bad assed fighter in the story. That may be true in shonen manga that doesn't have any character depth, like One Piece, but Naruto is a very different kettle of fish, especially in part 2, Kishimoto does more character development of male and female characters- equally, than even many shoujo manga, it's on the level of a Josei manga like Machiko Satonaka's Tenjuu no Nji (Rainbow in the Sky)- a fictionalized biography of the powerful 7th century Empress Jito, covering her life from birth until just before her death in 20 volumes. It also has a huge cast of well developed characters of both genders, asks questions about what it means to be a leader, deals with betrayals by loved ones, etc... It sadly hasn't been translated into English

Kishimoto has sucessfully blended common character types from all four markets- shonen, shoujo, seinen and josei into his manga. His portrayals of strong adult female characters are typically something you'd only see in Josei manga- Tsunade is much like a Josei manga leader for example, Chiyo also makes me think of more a Josei manga older woman, Shizune is a lot like a typical Josei romance manga character. Tsume fits one type of female character more common in Seinen manga (but the type is generally diminished by making her more a fanservice), his strong younger female characters- especially Sakura in part 2, is more what you'd see as the strong willed intelligent type lead in a fantasy or scifi older shoujo manga- she always been too sweet and compassionate to fit the shonen tsundere type, she's more like the balanced realistic image you get of that type in older shoujo manga (like Watase's Takiko). Thus his female characters are as well developed as his male characters because he's taken some of the best character types from all the genres and built from there. Sakura is more so than even the typical strong willed shoujo heroine because Kishimoto also incorporates shonen elements into her character. He does this with the other borrowed types as well. His male characters as well aren't just shonen types, Naruto- in particular in part 2, has blended in the personality characteristics of the male romantic lead in a older shoujo fantasy scifi manga. Minato is very much an older shoujo fantasy sci-fi male romantic lead type. Sai, of course is a pretty obviously inspired by a type gay male character you see in older shoujo manga. Sasuke has taken on some characteristics of the main male villain type from older shoujo fantasy sci-fi manga in part 2 of Naruto.

[dl316bh]

At it's highest Marvel had 35% female readership in the early 1990's- when they wrote female friendly stories where couples got together and stayed together.

We're definitely remembering two different nineties. The early nineties was when the "muscles, sex and guns" was rising to it's peak. Not only were relationships on again and off again - often with messy breakups - there was even some adultery thrown into the mix on mens part. Also, it was the high point for sexploitation; a part of the era in particular that's well documented. It's not one of comics proudest periods and most fans are absolutely embarrassed by the early nineties.

Guys like Rob Liefeld are partially to thank for that.

Once the EOC changed in 1994 and almost all those couples were broken up and the emphasis went back to fights all the time, readership dropped from a half million for the top titles, to 200,000 in one year- most that loss in female readers- female readership plunged to 10% in that one year, and as the policy continued and then female character fanservice got worse it dropped to an all time low of 5%, which has never risen.

You seem to be skewing the facts somewhat. The large drop in readership was a perfect storm of events that didn't really involve the female readership so much as several factors that added up to a devastating whole. The early nineties were the time of the "spectator boom", where a lot of folks bought comics just to bag them and hope to sell them at high profit. This also occurred largely around the time when the sexploitation and such was at it's absolute worst, which alienated existing fans; many of them still complain to this day about the over-muscular men, the shoulderpads, pouches, guns bigger than the character themself and skimpily dressed females. By this time comics were also reliant on the direct market.

When the spectators realized the comics weren't worth squat - which was no surprise considering the numbers they sold in - they bailed. The industry crashed and a lot of comic shops went out of business (they were ordering numbers so high at the point that when the crash happened they couldn't give them away and lost so much money they went down quick). This started Marvels downward trend that led to their late nineties bankruptcy. The market is still recovering from the crash.

I'm sure female readership has waxed and waned over the years, but the nineties were not chiefly because of a mass dropping of female readers, but a lot of different factors.

Edited by dl316bh, 08 November 2009 - 07:55 AM.

[Zatren6]

Careful, your misogyny is showing.

Careful, your ignorance is showing.

True merely criticizes female characters in NARUTO (a manga) and suddenly he hates women? This is extremely laughable. Your arguments were not well formulated, as (contrary to what you think) you mentioned ATTRIBUTES of some female characters (most of which have barely appeared in the series), playing them off as character development (which, as implied, they are not). Don't jump to conclusions about someone because they disagree with you, as it looks extremely immature.

And I bet I'm a misogynist for this, as well.

[Cloud]

And I bet I'm a misogynist for this, as well.

Don't worry, I was called a chauvinist for saying Sakura realistically could NOT win against Sasuke. Growing up in a family of women makes me a chauvinist!

[dl316bh]

Don't worry, I was called a chauvinist for saying Sakura realistically could NOT win against Sasuke. Growing up in a family of women makes me a chauvinist!

I was nailed with one of the words too. When not only did I grow up around strong female figures who I admire greatly, but I had two good-for-nothing father figures who amounted to nothing and were non-presences in my life, among other poor male figures I won't bother to go into detail about. Which have had some obvious effects on my life and my sisters. Terms like that are thrown around so casually these days.

Edited by dl316bh, 08 November 2009 - 05:00 AM.

[Saku-chan]

Ok. It's shounen manga. The girls are not the main point.

Sure they may cool and all behind the scenes, but unless that's made a part of the story by being drawn, it's not as important as stuff that does get drawn.

You may as well say that shoujou manga is sexist by having girls, "get the man."

And btw, if you're looking to shounen manga for feminist backing, you're looking in the wrong place.

[True]

Nope, #6 in the 7th poll published in the databook, and in most she was top 10, so you were totally wrong.

Yeah total. Then it goes 5th -> 12th - 9th -> 10th -> 8th -> 14th. That was my point.

Rukia is mostly damsel in distress she's about as "useful" as Sakura was in part 1 of Naruto, ditto Orohime + fanservice, Matsumoto is not anywhere near the fighter even Ichigo is + used for fanservice, basically any female that has breasts has been fanserviced numerous times, that is bad writing of female characters. There's something there, but the irritant of all the fanserving just leaves me cold.

Rukia taught Ichigo how to be a Shinigami, defeated the Ninth Espada, and has tons of emotional/background development and that's why she's always #2 in the polls and had her own movie. Oh and by the way she has small boobs! Orihime who literally has Godlike powers is the most human character we've seen in the manga and has the third most panel time in the manga (Miss Soupy could fill you in wonderfully if you want about Orihime being a good female character and not simply two big boobs). Matusmoto compared to Ichigo in terms of ability? What? Since when does a side character match the main character in terms of power? Though I do wonder why you didn't use Yoruichi or Unohana as examples as they could defeat him easily. Fanservice = bad writing of female characters? As I wrote in my second to last post it's a shounen manga and fan service is to be expected in a shounen manga for YOUNG BOYS. Sure you don't have to like it, but you are NOT the target demographic in the first place so it should be obvious why it's there.

Nami her personality consists of greed and a temper, used as fanservice, Robin fanservice fetish object, does she even have a personality? Female villians- fanservice sexual fetish objects. It's a really dull read to start with if you want characters that grow and develop- they don't, and then with the way female characters are stereotyped and drawn as sex objects I find it really female reader unfriendly, about like the worst of the American superhero comics.

Yeah Nami is a pirate who likes treasure, the blasphemy! The StrawHats would be lost every time they set sail if it wasn't for her amazing navigation skills. She has been in the manga for over 80% of the time and fulfills her role as a supporting crewmen. Robin has constantly been involved in fights with the Strawhats. Robin vs. Pell Robin vs. Tashigi, Robin and Chopper vs. Cindry and Dr. Hogback, Robin + Strawhats vs. Oars and Gecko Maria, are just to name a few. As I had said before about the fanservice not being uncommon amongst females in shounen manga, the One Piece females aren't just there to be simply sex objects, but have different aspects to their personality that makes them unique. It isn't even listed as an ecchi manga so it's not as if every chapter as the females showcasing their breasts in every panel they appear in. You are overblowing a female character's sexuality in a manga in which it rarely happens.

Marvel and DC comics, and real female readership of Marvel and DC comics has been at all time low of 5% for the last decade. At it's highest Marvel had 35% female readership in the early 1990's- when they wrote female friendly stories where couples got together and stayed together

I don't know anything about Marvel/DC since it's before my time but thanks to dl316bh for filling in with his knowledge.

The real picture of readership gender percentages is observing who picks up the books in bookstores and libraries. I work at a library with a large manga collection. One Piece is no where near as popular with American readers, male or female than Jump's other two very popular titles- Bleach and Naruto. Naruto is far and away number 1 of the Shonen titles, and actually slightly more popular with female readers than males. (Because it is never been just an shonen action manga, and that's particularly true in the second part of the manga- much of the explosive growth in female readers of Naruto came with part 2 of the manga, when Kishimoto took the story on a deeper more philosophical turn, and relationships also took a stronger role with a more serious approach, drawing it closer to what's seen in Josei manga like Machiko Satonaka's.) Book store sales agree with this popularity and gender breakdown of sales.

Even though this has nothing to do with the subject matter, let me address this issue as well. Naruto may be popular in America, but it's no where being #1.
As of 2008 sales:
One Piece: 5,956,540
Naruto: 4,261,054
source
Unless you can give me an official source about Naruto being more popular with females (and well it does target the yaoi demographic so of course females will like it) then I'm sorry but I can't take your personal observation with any seriousness.

Another key place to observe true gender interest ratios is anime conventions, look at panels devoted to series and who attends them, genders and numbers of cosplayers for a series. Again in the shonen catagory it's Naruto far and away on all points, and the most female cosplayers- many of the Naruto cosplayers even are females. Bleach is the only shonen manga that even challenges Naruto at all in number of cosplayers, and males tend to be more than half of them, with not as much female crossplay (women dressing as male characters). You see more Pokemon cosplayers than One Piece coplayers. It's rare to see any girls dressed as any One Piece character, even male characters. Typically you see about one guy dressed as Luffy and that's it.

Once again you are using an America observation. I no doubt understand that Naruto is currently the most popular anime/manga in the U.S.; However, anime/manga is targeted towards Japanese people who are the vast majority of consumers. Have you ever seen cosplay in Japan? Do you know how many people cosplay as One Piece characters there? If not then again this is a useless point you've brought up that has nothing to do with the original point of Naruto developing female characters.

What do you think developing female characters means? Character development means growth in depth of personality.

And on your "points", hmm I think healing Kankuro in minutes when even Chiyo was stumped at Sasori's poison, healing Naruto's burns from the Kyuubi, bringing Hinata back from near death, fighting Sasori, acting as the Hokage once Tsunade went into a coma- ordering the evacuation, leading the search for injured ninja and planning on finding Yamato to deal with Kyuubi Naruto, and killing a summons that even male jonin ninja were running for their lives from in one blow and having a blast doing it, being shown as not only an elite level medic nin, a skilled fighter (even scaring Kakashi during the second bell test) but she also works in the codebreakers department is pretty freaking impressive. It's amusing how you try to act like most that stuff didn't happen and belittle the few things you note. Even this current arc is not about the triangle on Sakura's side, only on Naruto side. Sakura made her choice for Naruto some time back. On Sakura's side this is about making things right with Naruto- stopping the POAL (at least the part that was about her- on that she suceeded with Naruto), trying to get Naruto to the point she is emotionally about Sasuke- at least intellectually/conciously cutting off any sense of a bond to Sasuke, cutting off even the team mate bond (She didn't suceed there, Naruto is obstinately obsessed with believing he can save Sasuke), because she agrees with Shikamaru's conclusions. In the face of Naruto's refusal to stop chasing after Sasuke, Sakura decides as a leader that her plan B has to go into effect, Sasuke has to be taken down now. Plan A, the one she'd hoped would work- was revealing her feelings for Naruto, and getting Naruto to give up the chase for Sasuke and come back to Konoha. Now she's going with the tougher, more dangerous plan because she feels it's the only option left.

You've managed to make a huge rant about such little events. Admittedly I commend you for pointing out tiny aspects that show Sakura is an efficient character. But seeing as she is the female lead we did expect to see more of her after the major Sasori fight that vastly changed her character. The supposed Konan fight that many fans speculated that would occur since she invaded Konoha never occurred and lead to much disappointment. I've never stated Sakura was a badly developed character, but she has far from filled her role as the female lead which is a saddening showcase.

Careful, your misogyny is showing. That is completely contrary to what Kishimoto says in the manga. In the manga she is better Hokage than Sarutobi- she stands up to the elders and Danzo, has spies watching him, restores Konoha to it's most powerful position since the 1st Hokage, makes it highly prosperous, solidifies the alliance with Suna to a true one- something Sarutobi wasn't able to do with any of the countries, was strong enough a leader that the Raikage actually used diplomatic means with no underhanded stuff like he did with Sarutobi, etc... All this in just three years.

Yup, criticizing a female character means I hate all women all right. And oh wow, did you completely ignore the fact that she let Konoha get blown up and how it sticks up to when comparing towards the other Hokages? Better Hokage than Sandiame? Did he let a 15 year old boy tell him what to do all the time including letting him continuously go after and 'save' a missing nin . Bias is pretty evident here.

Amusing, again with the misogynist diminishing.

Oh look not countering my points and insulting me again. Cute.

Again with the misogynist diminishing that distorts the events in the manga. That Mizukage she took down was a host for the Sanbi and thus a very deadly fighter.

STICKS AND STONES MAY BREAK MY BONES, BUT WORDS WILL NEVER HURT MY INTELLIGENCE.

Totally wrong on all parts. Shikamaru forfeited because she was essentially his equal- as he said, he was would have been out of chakra in 5 seconds, and she wouldn't have been. He just conceded the inevitable. Tayuya wasn't beaten down by Shikamaru, she had him beaten down, she would have won if Temari hadn't shown up (same as all the other fights the Sand Sibs intervened on. Temari took out Tayuya without even breaking a sweat.

That's my point. Her two victories came off as nothing major. Temari didn't break a sweat against Tayuya because she was already severely weakened by Shikamaru in the first place so it was easy for her to defeat her. I won't take away from that, but Temari is a side character who if we are lead to believe is such a great fighter and character, hasn't done much at all in part 2.

And you seem to be under some mistaken idea that development is only about being the most bad assed fighter in the story. That may be true in shonen manga that doesn't have any character depth, like One Piece, but Naruto is a very different kettle of fish, especially in part 2, Kishimoto does more character development of male and female characters- equally, than even many shoujo manga, it's on the level of a Josei manga like Machiko Satonaka's

Um it's a shounen manga, which is about fighting. If there are female ninjas, why aren't they strong and actually fighting like they should? Yeah he's focused plenty on Uchiha related matters and developing Sasuke. He's finally done some with Naruto as well but Sasuke has gotten most development in part 2. Sakura did great having her development when she appeared after the time skip but didn't have any major relevance since. All the rest is your personal opinion and I don't understand why you are bringing in josei manga when it's a completely different genre then shounen.

Kishimoto has sucessfully blended common character types from all four markets- shonen, shoujo, seinen and josei into his manga. His portrayals of strong adult female characters are typically something you'd only see in Josei manga- Tsunade is much like a Josei manga leader for example, Chiyo also makes me think of more a Josei manga older woman, Shizune is a lot like a typical Josei romance manga character. Tsume fits one type of female character more common in Seinen manga (but the type is generally diminished by making her more a fanservice), his strong younger female characters- especially Sakura in part 2, is more what you'd see as the strong willed intelligent type lead in a fantasy or scifi older shoujo manga- she always been too sweet and compassionate to fit the shonen tsundere type, she's more like the balanced realistic image you get of that type in older shoujo manga (like Watase's Takiko). Thus his female characters are as well developed as his male characters because he's taken some of the best character types from all the genres and built from there. Sakura is more so than even the typical strong willed shoujo heroine because Kishimoto also incorporates shonen elements into her character. He does this with the other borrowed types as well. His male characters as well aren't just shonen types, Naruto- in particular in part 2, has blended in the personality characteristics of the male romantic lead in a older shoujo fantasy scifi manga. Minato is very much an older shoujo fantasy sci-fi male romantic lead type. Sai, of course is a pretty obviously inspired by a type gay male character you see in older shoujo manga. Sasuke has taken on some characteristics of the main male villain type from older shoujo fantasy sci-fi manga in part 2 of Naruto.

This has NOTHING to do with the topic. Half of your long winded post has contributed absolutely zero about the development of Naruto females but just you ranting about how you feel about the female characters. And How are you comparing two completely different genres into one? Shoujo and Shounen don't mix. I'll leave it at that considering I can't be bother wasting time dicussing something that to me makes no sense and not even about the original topic.

[dl316bh]

I don't know anything about Marvel/DC since it's before my time but thanks to dl316bh for filling in with his knowledge.

Not a problem. I was a kid during the nineties and a casual reader; pretty much Batman stuff. But I still remember some of the hooplah from back then. Since getting into comics in a major way a few years ago, I've gotten into discussions and learned quite a bit about the 90's boom and bust. It's kind of interesting to read and understand; it's like the comics version of the housing boom.

In regards to nineties comics, you didn't miss much by that era being before your time. Marvel was the pits. DC had some good stuff though. Hitman was genius and Batman had some good storylines. Then there was Grant Morrisons JLA and his surreal Doom Patrol run (which had, among other things, a sentient transvestite street named Danny the Street, The Painting That Ate Paris and the Scissormen, who could literally cut things out of reality). So I suppose it wasn't all bad on the DC side. But Marvel... *shudder*

Edited by dl316bh, 08 November 2009 - 07:44 AM.

[ciardha]

We're definitely remembering two different nineties. The early nineties was when the "muscles, sex and guns" was rising to it's peak. Not only were relationships on again and off again - often with messy breakups - there was even some adultery thrown into the mix on mens part. Also, it was the high point for sexploitation; a part of the era in particular that's well documented. It's not one of comics proudest periods and most fans are absolutely embarrassed by the early nineties.

Guys like Rob Liefeld are partially to thank for that.


You seem to be skewing the facts somewhat. The large drop in readership was a perfect storm of events that didn't really involve the female readership so much as several factors that added up to a devastating whole. The early nineties were the time of the "spectator boom", where a lot of folks bought comics just to bag them and hope to sell them at high profit. This also occurred largely around the time when the sexploitation and such was at it's absolute worst, which alienated existing fans; many of them still complain to this day about the over-muscular men, the shoulderpads, pouches, guns bigger than the character themself and skimpily dressed females. By this time comics were also reliant on the direct market.

You are confusing Image comics with Marvel. In the late 80's-early 90's Tom DeFalco was Editor In Chief of Marvel. DeFalco wanted to draw in female readers, so promoted more women writers and editors, encouraged storylines with romances that grew and developed, characters got married, more positive emphasis on children of superheroes too. Reader polls were actually conducted asking readers their gender and what couples they liked best, etc... The female readership at it's peak in 1992-93 was 35%, the last poll done at the end of 1994 showed a sharp drop to 10% female readership, reflecting Harras hostility to those very qualities that had drawn in so many female readers- even Spiderman's marriage was broke up, as was Sue and Reed's. He also laid off almost every female editor and writer working for Marvel that first year.

Readers reacted with anger at the mass relationship breakups and many quit reading- especially female readers, as the poll numbers show. The so called bust in the speculators market was more an excuse than reality, speculators were never as much of the readership as the comic book people try to pretend.

Strange how more female friendly indy comics and the translated manga readership began to grow larger immediately following. The manga market especially, jumped substantially in the mid 90-late 90's and this when the titles were still few and the first shoujo titles just started being translated. This happens while Marvel, DC, Image, etc... sales continued to decline. The top selling superhero comic by the late 90's was selling under 100,000 copies a month, and even now is still below 200,000. Marvel got even sleazier in the first half of this decade and drove off even some of the women who hadn't been driven off by Harras.

The movies and cartoons are why you see a small increase in female attendance at comic cons- but most aren't reading the comics. The movies and cartoons put more romance in than in the comics. Again, bookstores and libraries show the truth of this. I've never seen a female comic book/manga reader at my library even flip open a superhero graphic novel. while they will read more female friendly titles like Strangers in Paradise, and flock to the manga. I still go to a major comic book store in my town. In the later 1970's-mid 80's (when I read the Marvel Star Wars comic, the indy Elfquest, and DC's Teen Titans (no manga titles were translated regularly then.) I saw a few other girls in the shop when I was there, in the late 80's- to 1994 suddenly I saw lots of other girls and women in the shop and they were buying superhero comics and the early manga titles. Starting in the later part of 1994 the number of girls and women dropped substantially, and most went straight to the translated manga. Once Borders opened a manga section the girls and women almost all stopped going to the comic book store at all. I go in a couple of times a month nowadays for my pulls- Shoujo Beat and Shonen Jump and not once have I seen another female customer in the store at the same time as me (they stopped carrying manga a couple of years ago, because Border's was outselling them on manga titles) in the past two years. Comic books also actually take up far less space in the store than it used to, now it's dominated by comic book toys, Horror movie merchandise, gaming cards and merchandise, other pop culture merchandise, etc... because American comics no longer sell enough to keep a comic book store in business.

I basically only still go there to pick up Shoujo Beat and Shonen Jump because the owner is a nice guy who is a fellow fan of Yoko Ono. I'll glance at the American comics but other than occasionally picking up a X-men related comic whenever Marvel decides to get Gambit and Rogue back together, and Marvel's attempt to win back a few female readers by doing a comic book adaption of Laurell K. Hamilton's Anita Blake books (bit late for that Hamilton's passed her popularity peak with female readers when she started having Anita sleep with just about any guy that comes along- in a rather obvious intent to delay the inevitable getting together for good, in some way or another, of Anita and Jean-Claude. Basically anything after Cerulean Sins is unreadable from the boredom of paper thin plots and lots of sex with lots of different guys, and as the books go on often multiple guys at once- you wouldn't think sex could get dull, but it does in her books. Right now though they are still serializing the second book so there's still several more decent books to go. But if they had done this while say Buffy the Vampire Slayer was on TV they might have had more interest sparked, lots of overlap between Buffy and Anita fans- some similarities in their personalities- Anita came first though. There's not really a crossover between Sookie fans anymore (True Blood)-used to be a bit before the Anita books got too thin with the plots, but nothing like the Buffy and Anita crossover fandom was, and I definitely couldn't see a crossover with Twilight fans and Anita fans!

Oh and dl316bh, the only thing in this first post of yours that was misogynist was your sneering comment at the end about misogyny. You know if you had left that out I would have thought you were actually (sort of) listening to me.

Kishimoto did make a rather wise comment via Chiyo about men not listening to what women have to say and how they should not be dismissive.

I've read hundreds of manga over the past 29 years and of all of those Kishimoto's ranks right around the top if not the top in realistic, well developed female characters, with the least amount of female sexual objectification and flat stereotyping of any of the shonen manga I've read (and I've read around the same percentage of shonen as shoujo) I've been a feminist for over 35 years and have made it a regular study of how writers (male and female) portray female characters vs males in both Japanese and western literature and popular media- books, comics, manga, TV, movies, etc... my whole adult life (25 years and counting) Kishimoto expresses a more profeminist approach to his female characters than I've seen in any male shonen writer, and frankly more than almost any modern male American or European writer I am familiar with. Not even Whedon, Claremont or even Niceza (he comes close at his best, though) approach writing female characters with the sensitivity that Kishimoto has mastered. Understanding that means he creates and develops female characters very well. As catsi pointed out earlier even Karen is more than "just a Sasuke fangirl" She needs to learn to say no forcefully (to Sasuke) and not give in, something Sakura already learned to do with guys and an encounter between the two might just teach Karin she has that right and should stand up for it.

It means absolutely nothing if a female character is a "badassed fighter" if she's otherwise sexually objectified by the writer which is the case in most shonen manga, especially those written by men. It just makes her a sexual fetish object like Witchblade or the female characters in 'Kill Bill". Or the female characters in One Piece, etc...

Sorry guys, a lifelong feminist woman who knows literature (both western and Japanese by the way) and popular media storytelling and critiques of such, particularly when it comes to character development, with a particular interest in female characters in such, is much more an expert in good and bad female character development than you. Throwing in the typical misogynist comments you see on Narutofan about female characters gives you even less credibility, throwing fits about me and other female memebers calling you on sexist or misogynist comments you made here and other threads makes you look even less likely to be able to make anything like an accurate observation of female character development.

Hope these guys haven't driven you off this thread catsi, it was a good discussion thread when you and I were dialoguing.

Edited by ciardha, 08 November 2009 - 09:44 AM.

[Zatren6]

Sorry guys, a lifelong feminist woman who knows literature (both western and Japanese by the way) and popular media storytelling and critiques of such, particularly when it comes to character development, with a particular interest in female characters in such, is much more an expert in good and bad female character development than you. Throwing in the typical misogynist comments you see on Narutofan about female characters gives you even less credibility, throwing fits about me and other female memebers calling you on sexist or misogynist comments you made here and other threads makes you look even less likely to be able to make anything like an accurate observation of female character development.

Hope these guys haven't driven you off this thread catsi, it was a good discussion thread when you and I were dialoguing.

With no due offense, an "expert" such has yourself has made an argument that was 80% drabble and off topic, and 15% insufficient (in my and, from what I can tell, a few others' opinions). Just because you're a self-proclaimed expert doesn't make you the end-all be-all on the subject, you can be experienced and still be wrong. The concept that you're right just because you've been around longer is astronomically fallacious. You try to distract the argument with off-topic subjects and accusations of sexism (because female character development was criticized? In a manga? I'm sorry, but that was seriously immature). While I, and others, respect your opinion that Naruto character development is good, a good few people disagree. And for you to question the character of those opposing you in opinion, merely because they combat your arguments (which they did quite well), is quite silly. I consent that some of the posts directed towards you may have been slightly aggressive, but that is because yours were also quite aggressive, and honestly insulting to the people they were directed to. Again, it was quite rude, and actually childish of you to insult another person's integrity because they disagreed with you on a matter of character development...in a manga. A fictitious story.

Take a look at others' posts subjectively and take off the blinders, you will find that no one was insulting women, people were merely criticizing character development and defending off-topic (and weak) arguments that you made. If you cannot see this, you have an EXTREMELY large bias.

Your post right there made me laugh and just stare stunned at my screen at the same time.

Sorry for the off-topic post.

[catsi563]

Nope still here. just waiting for an opportunity to discuss the topic I posted about is all.

[Nee-sama]

Sorry Ciardha but I could tell you were being a feminist even before you admitted to being one your whole life. As much as I hate to agree with True (since he beat me at Fantasy Football ) I think he makes pretty good points in the last couple of posts. The misogyny comments were a little too harsh and definitely uncalled for. If I were a mod I would suggest that this topic needs to get back on track and the bashing needs to stop. Since I'm not, I'll just leave it at *hint hint*!

Edited by Nee-sama, 08 November 2009 - 04:45 PM.

[ciardha]

Karins a strong character and one who stands near Sasuke as an equal. she doesnt take crap from him or anyone, and shes going to have an amazing affect on the story and Sasuke before this story is done.

Glad you're still here, lets get this thread back back from the misogynist trolls then and continue from the last positive dialogue post- yours!

Great point about Karin, you made a good argument about her character not being a "mere Sasuke fangirl". She is the first female character Sasuke hasn't just dismissed (Sakura) or been disgusted by (Ino).

Karin's development points are that she doesn't say no forcefully enough and stick to her guns, and she has never had her own true goal, she followed Orochimaru without really questioning what she was doing, and she's still giving in to a leader because she has no goal of her own, as Suigetsu has pointed out- much to her anger.

These are points where Sakura has become strong- as a Genin she drifted along much like Karin, but the Chunin exams made her face the fact she need to strengthen her backbone and have a goal of her own. She did and has. Karin looks to have not had much interaction with other females. I could see something coming out of Sakura and Karin's meeting that would create something of a friendship like Naruto's and Gaara. There's enough of a parallel Kishimoto might very well do it.

Sasuke does need Karin, not just to heal him but as someone who's lived alongside his darkness and shared some of it, who can yank him back from the chasm he's determined to jump into. Remember, another part of what Shikaku told Shikamaru about women- men would be awful without women, (being with a) woman makes a guy (want to) become a better person.

(It's John Stuart Mill feminism there, but it's still a decent masculine approach to trying to understand feminism, rather than only seeing women as fetishized "action babe" sexual objects- it's at least an attempt to really listen to women- which is why Kishimoto is so much more profeminist in his approach than the other male shonen writers.)

Karin just needs to become emotionally stronger and have her own goals- yanking Sasuke back from the chasm would be the start she needs. I don't know if Naruto can reach Sasuke anymore, he only was partly able to at the Valley of the End and not at all when they faced each other in the Grass Country arc, even Itachi failed during their last battle, and these were the two people that had the best chance of reaching Sasuke. Karin is the only one that has a slim chance now, but she needs to make herself emotionally stronger- to know she has the right to be. That's why I think a Karin and Sakura conversation might happen. It was Sakura's interactions with other females that she was close to (Ino and Tsunade) that taught her to build and develop her own strength and goals.

Most of the heroic women and girls in Naruto have strong positive emotional bonds with other females, just like in real life. Kishimoto understands the bonds of female friendship better than most shonen writers, who tend to try to turn it into sexual fetishization- the fake lesbians of masculine porn (Kishimoto made light of that and male reaction quite effectively with Konohamaru's yuri no jutsu. And to balance things he also made light of the fake gay men of yaoi- although notably you notice a striking difference in the depections- the yuri is clearly purely for the male observer, there's no attempt to show any kind of romantic bond between the two girls, with the yaoi that's all you see, a sexually romantic bond between two males- the female is only a viewer from afar, the guys aren't engaging with her. Really sharp observation of Kishimoto's again with the socialized differences between masculine and feminine sexual drives.)

Edited by ciardha, 08 November 2009 - 04:59 PM.

[dl316bh]

Sweet Jesus, has this conversation really dropped into the "I know more than you and are more qualified because I say so" territory?

Ugh.

Serious on topicness needed here, stat.

Edited by dl316bh, 08 November 2009 - 05:02 PM.

[Zatren6]

Glad you're still here, lets get this thread back back from the misogynist trolls then and continue from the last positive dialogue post- yours!

Oh my word.

Edited by Zatren6, 08 November 2009 - 05:15 PM.

[dl316bh]

Oh my word.

Let it go man. It's not worth even acknowledging anymore.

Edited by dl316bh, 08 November 2009 - 05:27 PM.

[Cloud]

Glad you're still here, lets get this thread back back from the misogynist trolls then and continue from the last positive dialogue post- yours!

I DO love the acknowledgment. Hey, I'm a house full of female roommates. I'm misogynist!

I'm leaving it at that. This topic isn't even worth the effort anymore.

[catsi563]

Karin's development points are that she doesn't say no forcefully enough and stick to her guns

I dont know about that. Shes actually been very forceful, to the point of calling Sasuke weak when the deidara fight was over. and insisting that they fight itachi together. Shes even objected to madaras plan and to their going after the Kages.

Im not certian she could have been any more forceful without using actual force.

and she has never had her own true goal, she followed Orochimaru without really questioning what she was doing, and she's still giving in to a leader because she has no goal of her own, as Suigetsu has pointed out- much to her anger.

Now here i do disagree on a couple of points. for one the implications are pretty clear given the development weve seen that she is not and never was following Orochimaru at all. In point fo fact the implications seem to support that the one she came to the Sound with Orochimaru for was Sasuke.

Her goal i will grant seems a little vague and could stand to be fleshed out a little. She seems to want to have Sasuke as her love, and to help him achive his goals.

but so far we havent seen much beyond that. this leaves the door open for sakura to do exactly as you say and open her up to saving Sasuke from the darkness that even she is beginning to sense.

These are points where Sakura has become strong- as a Genin she drifted along much like Karin, but the Chunin exams made her face the fact she need to strengthen her backbone and have a goal of her own

with Sakura yes, but as ive said with Karin, evidence seems to suggest that she never "drifted along." she did what she needed to do.

I could see something coming out of Sakura and Karin's meeting that would create something of a friendship like Naruto's and Gaara. There's enough of a parallel Kishimoto might very well do it.

I agree and it becomes a stronger possibility given Karins predilections which run to Sasukes protection and benefit. Sasuke and feelings for him are something both have in common ((though Sakuras are based on an illusion))

still I dont see Karin sitting quietly on the sidleines while Sasuke is turned into a living weapon either. She told madara off when he sent Team hawk off to the Kage summit. she sure as heck wont sot by and leave him to rot.

Sasuke does need Karin, not just to heal him but as someone who's lived alongside his darkness and shared some of it, who can yank him back from the chasm he's determined to jump into. Remember, another part of what Shikaku told Shikamaru about women- men would be awful without women, (being with a) woman makes a guy (want to) become a better person

Yes very much so. I agree with this statement whole heartedly and think we will see variations of this. including I now am want to believe a talk between Shikamau and Naruto along those same lines.

I don't know if Naruto can reach Sasuke anymore, he only was partly able to at the Valley of the End and not at all when they faced each other in the Grass Country arc, even Itachi failed during their last battle, and these were the two people that had the best chance of reaching Sasuke. Karin is the only one that has a slim chance now, but she needs to make herself emotionally stronger- to know she has the right to be.

Im beginnig to think it may be a team efort here to bring him back from the brink. Naruto understanding his pain is one part, Sakura clearing up her feelings for him is another, and Sakura reminding Sasuke of the bond they ((team 7 )) shared is another.

Lastly Karin is going to be crucial. Shes going to have to remind him of his gaols, remind him of who he is. shes going to have to be that centering mechanism. kind of like a planet that a rogue moon is orbiting and keeping that moon from flying out into space and getting lost.

we already know that Sasuke listens to her and values her opinion. Now shes going to have to really stand up and push that opinions.

It was Sakura's interactions with other females that she was close to (Ino and Tsunade) that taught her to build and develop her own strength and goals.

yes it was. but we must not dismiss the influence the effect the men in her life have had on her as well. It was not Ino and Tsunade who she thought of when thinking of getting stronger. it was Naruto and Sasuke. and when she silently renewed that promise again during part 2 it was naruto and sasuke she thought of again.

while Tunade and Ino had wonderful influences on her yes. It was Naruto though who had arguably the most influence on her. pushing her to want to do better.

Most of the heroic women and girls in Naruto have strong positive emotional bonds with other females, just like in real life. Kishimoto understands the bonds of female friendship better than most shonen writers, who tend to try to turn it into sexual fetishization- the fake lesbians of masculine porn (Kishimoto made light of that and male reaction quite effectively with Konohamaru's yuri no jutsu. And to balance things he also made light of the fake gay men of yaoi- although notably you notice a striking difference in the depections- the yuri is clearly purely for the male observer, there's no attempt to show any kind of romantic bond between the two girls, with the yaoi that's all you see, a sexually romantic bond between two males- the female is only a viewer from afar, the guys aren't engaging with her. Really sharp observation of Kishimoto's again with the socialized differences between masculine and feminine sexual drives.)

interesting. Ill admit I hadnt totaly looked that deep at those scenes but your right. the yuri justsu the guys are turned towrds each other and making bedroom eyes at each other with the female in question stuck watching.

While the females are all HI were here were sexy while looking towards the guy in question .

a very good psychological point made.