128 replies to this topic

[Darth Krypt]

It would be a chaotic mess leaving everybody staring in disbelief and shouting "WTF?!?!" Bad. Bad storytelling.

LOL NH and SS fans will be shouting that when NS is finally canon.

[PachucoDesigns]

LOL NH and SS fans will be shouting that when NS is finally canon.

Yeah. And it will be hilarious. I love watching fantards melt down. It's the best kind of people watching. lol

[xxRomanceGirlxx]

In storytelling, there's something known as a Deus ex Machina. It is one of the stupidest things any writer can do, and the one most infamous for it is M. Night Shyamalan, of late. It's often confused for a twist, but it isn't. A twist is an unexpected ending that makes you think back on what you just saw, reinterpret everything, and realize that it makes sense in hindsight even though you couldn't see it coming. An excellent device, really hard to pull off. A Deus ex Machina is an ending that the author just pulled out of his ***, with absolutely no foreshadowing or allusions, no hint at all that it was going to happen. "And then, it turns out they were on the moon!" "And then the aliens were allergic to water!" "And then, turns out it was present day, not the past!" It is the stupidest thing EVER.

Any other pairing other than NaruSaku at this point would be a Deus ex Machina, pure and simple. Because even though the fans like the idea of it happening, even though they want the characters to be together because of some vicarious desire/envy, it has absolutely no justification and would derail the entire reasoning behind the story. It would be a chaotic mess leaving everybody staring in disbelief and shouting "WTF?!?!" Bad. Bad storytelling.

Only NaruSaku makes sense.

I have heard of that before and if Kishimoto trolls all of us with something like that, I will be seriously pissed. If Kishimoto has any sense, he should know better and have been better at storytelling.
SasuSaku would probably be the biggest asspull EVER, even more so than NaruHina which is also an asspull to an lessser extent. I pray Kishimoto doesn't do that. NaruSaku is the one that makes
the most sense and I wish others from rival pairings would acknowledge that.

[ciardha]

True. I believe my opinion was logical and I have been waiting a long time to shoot down her posts that say things like that when they obviously aren't looking at the big picture and overanalyzing
things like she does.

Thanks for revealing that your actual motives were to personally attack me.

[kirabook]

Just saying, but the reason ciardha has such respect is not because of her age or experience, but because she's a great debater and brings up good points in every situation. I've been lurking this forum for years, and 1 opinion that I enjoy to read is hers. No, I don't always agree with what she says, but no one ever agree's with anyone 100%, that would be silly.

Now then, if you lose hope in NaruSaku now, then I wonder how much you actually believed they could be together in the first place. If you've seen the development up until now and generally understand how they work and fit together, you wouldn't be put off by some anime ending *since when has the anime mattered at all in NaruSaku other than occasional animated goodies?* or the usual Hinata ranting about her one sided love.

As for pairing bias, I don't know, I most likely am a bit biased, but I don't go out of my way to stick up for NaruSaku in situations that can't be stuck up for. Sakura's confession was faked, she was faking the stuff about Sasuke, and she initially faked her confession as well for his sake. She did anything she could to make him give up on Sasuke, she doesn't want him to hold the burden of the promise he made anymore. She has done this once before when he went 4-tailed mode, but of course he wasn't himself then.

I detest Sasuke, as a character in general. I think he was fine when he was in Konoha and was finally getting along with his team and forgetting about his stupid revenge. But when he decided to go to Orochimaru after all Naruto did to bring him back and help him, he earned his place in my black book of extreme dislike. I don't hate him for the non-existent SasuSaku relationship, I hate him because he's him. Lol

I don't hate Hinata at all, but she does annoy me a bit. She says she wants to do something on her own and become stronger, why does she always rely on this goal of Naruto to do so? You're supposed to make yourself better for you, not for someone else. I hate that weird dependency she has going on. Do it for yourself, make yourself strong to do what you need to do. Don't make yourself stronger for the sake of holding Naruto's hand. That's stupid and makes her seem as blind as she looks.

With that said, even if NaruSaku doesn't happen, I will still support them. If NaruHina or SasuSaku happen, I will forever question Kishi's writing capabilities and dislike him for falling for whacko fan pressure. He has a great thing going on for NaruSaku. It's been built up naturally, all that's left is the final click and honest expression of love and it's in our hands. 8D

[PachucoDesigns]

Thanks for revealing that your actual motives were to personally attack me.

Nobody is personally attacking you, ciardha. They are attacking your arguments. You're so certain that you're an absolute authority on everything anime that you think no one will contest you. And so you take offense.

I detest Sasuke, as a character in general. I think he was fine when he was in Konoha and was finally getting along with his team and forgetting about his stupid revenge. But when he decided to go to Orochimaru after all Naruto did to bring him back and help him, he earned his place in my black book of extreme dislike. I don't hate him for the non-existent SasuSaku relationship, I hate him because he's him. Lol

That's actually precisely why I like his character. His life was ruined, destroyed, and nobody even bothered to sympathize. They were all too busy either envying him, hating him, or slobbering over how cool he was. The only purpose he was left with in life was to find justice for the murder of his family, and he did not let the wishy-washy crap from the Leaf pin him down. He is the perfect killer. And that is a character that inspires fear, and demands respect. By saying you liked his character when he was "getting along with his team" and "forgetting about his stupid revenge," you're basically saying you never liked Sasuke at all. Because that's who he was, and who he was always meant to be. He represents something I very personally believe in: do not allow your character to be shaped by the desires of others. Be true to yourself, be who you are, regardless of what your so-called "friends" think of you for it.

Edited by PachucoDesigns, 06 April 2012 - 12:33 PM.

[kirabook]

Nobody is personally attacking you, ciardha. They are attacking your arguments. You're so certain that you're an absolute authority on everything anime that you think no one will contest you. And so you take offense.



That's actually precisely why I like his character. His life was ruined, destroyed, and nobody even bothered to sympathize. They were all too busy either envying him, hating him, or slobbering over how cool he was. The only purpose he was left with in life was to find justice for the murder of his family, and he did not let the wishy-washy crap from the Leaf pin him down. He is the perfect killer. And that is a character that inspires fear, and demands respect. By saying you liked his character when he was "getting along with his team" and "forgetting about his stupid revenge," you're basically saying you never liked Sasuke at all. Because that's who he was, and who he was always meant to be. He represents something I very personally believe in: do not allow your character to be shaped by the desires of others. Be true to yourself, be who you are, regardless of what your so-called "friends" think of you for it.

Uh, I'm pretty sure she doesn't hold herself that way. Yes, she often references other things she has read, but she's never said she's the word of god of anime.


Alright, you need to get justice for your family. But the stupid stuff he yelled at Naruto was just that, stupid. Ok, so your rival, best friend, and teammate is getting stronger. What do you do? You do the same things people did to you, you envied him and turned against him as if he were an enemy. Instead of getting some advice or striving to get stronger like he did, he went for shortcuts.

Leaf wanted to do what was best for him, or at least the people who were directly associated with Sasuke. *not talking about the counsel here* Naruto didn't tell Sasuke what to do, Sakura didn't tell Sasuke what to do. All they did was be his friend, is that letting others shape who you are?

At some point before Itachi came, Sasuke was getting along just fine. No, he wasn't exactly forgetting about being an avenger, but he was taking the natural path to getting stronger at a pace that wasn't dangerous and benefited him and his sanity. What good is a killer if he's just going to turn on everyone that employs him or tries to help him with his killing goals? *which he does*

If Sasuke is naturally some insane psycho who laughs at the air while his eyes are bleeding blood, then.... well, I don't know who could like a character like that. I do fancy insane type characters who fall from grace, but Sasuke didn't fall from grace, he ran from grace. The more natural Sasuke is the Sasuke that existed before his brother murdered everyone. No, I don't expect Sasuke to return to something like that ever again, but he was healing. Of course his goal could have remained, but I don't think he had to go out of his way to do what he did.

It's just the course of destiny though I guess. Naruto to Jiraiya, Sakura to Tsunade, Sasuke to Oro, but I digress.

*rushed, gotta go to work now!, ignore any errors or repeats*

[tricksie]

Nobody is personally attacking you, ciardha. They are attacking your arguments. You're so certain that you're an absolute authority on everything anime that you think no one will contest you. And so you take offense.

Geez dude! You say you are not condescending on your apology thread, then you continue to lace your comments with zingers like this!

Yeah, romancegirl was making a personal attack on ciardha — I don't think there's any other way to take a statement like "I have been waiting a long time to shoot down her posts" — but you know what? Ciardha's got it handled. Stay out of it! You'll add a lot more credibility to your comments by leaving off the borderline personal remarks. Same for romancegirl.

Sorry to be offtopic. Btw, there's a bunch of junk thread just lately posted. Must be the full moon....

As for losing hope in NS, just remember the anime is driven by a different motive than storytelling alone, as in the manga. Think of the anime like a great big moving fanfic. They're going to pick up on key elements and distort them to make and impact (I'm looking at you Hinata).

[shadow_Uzumaki]

Nah, for me, there's no pairing developments going on at all..... Which is understandable, given they're in the middle of a war. They haven't also had the time to have some down time to recuperate and talk, considering Naruto's entrance to the war consisted of annihilating the enemy and reinforcing the Alliance in a blitz Patton would be proud of.

There's just no pairing development for any pairings right now, period.

[Darth Krypt]

Geez dude! You say you are not condescending on your apology thread, then you continue to lace your comments with zingers like this!

Yeah, romancegirl was making a personal attack on ciardha — I don't think there's any other way to take a statement like "I have been waiting a long time to shoot down her posts" — but you know what? Ciardha's got it handled. Stay out of it! You'll add a lot more credibility to your comments by leaving off the borderline personal remarks. Same for romancegirl.

Sorry to be offtopic. Btw, there's a bunch of junk thread just lately posted. Must be the full moon....

As for losing hope in NS, just remember the anime is driven by a different motive than storytelling alone, as in the manga. Think of the anime like a great big moving fanfic. They're going to pick up on key elements and distort them to make and impact (I'm looking at you Hinata).

I agree. As much as I disagree with ciardha, that statement sounds like a personal attack. RomanceGirl, you shouldn't have added that statement. Now no matter how logical your argument is, ciardha is just going to point to that statement you made and all you points will go down the drain, even if you were to be correct.

[PachucoDesigns]

Uh, I'm pretty sure she doesn't hold herself that way. Yes, she often references other things she has read, but she's never said she's the word of god of anime.


Alright, you need to get justice for your family. But the stupid stuff he yelled at Naruto was just that, stupid. Ok, so your rival, best friend, and teammate is getting stronger. What do you do? You do the same things people did to you, you envied him and turned against him as if he were an enemy. Instead of getting some advice or striving to get stronger like he did, he went for shortcuts.

Leaf wanted to do what was best for him, or at least the people who were directly associated with Sasuke. *not talking about the counsel here* Naruto didn't tell Sasuke what to do, Sakura didn't tell Sasuke what to do. All they did was be his friend, is that letting others shape who you are?

At some point before Itachi came, Sasuke was getting along just fine. No, he wasn't exactly forgetting about being an avenger, but he was taking the natural path to getting stronger at a pace that wasn't dangerous and benefited him and his sanity. What good is a killer if he's just going to turn on everyone that employs him or tries to help him with his killing goals? *which he does*

If Sasuke is naturally some insane psycho who laughs at the air while his eyes are bleeding blood, then.... well, I don't know who could like a character like that. I do fancy insane type characters who fall from grace, but Sasuke didn't fall from grace, he ran from grace. The more natural Sasuke is the Sasuke that existed before his brother murdered everyone. No, I don't expect Sasuke to return to something like that ever again, but he was healing. Of course his goal could have remained, but I don't think he had to go out of his way to do what he did.

It's just the course of destiny though I guess. Naruto to Jiraiya, Sakura to Tsunade, Sasuke to Oro, but I digress.

*rushed, gotta go to work now!, ignore any errors or repeats*

Put yourself in his shoes. You are a little boy, innocent and naive to everything. You are taught not only to be proud of your family name, but to strive to rival or surpass the strength of the clan's finest, your brother, the one you look up to. You then come home to find that your entire family has been brutally murdered by your brother, the one you respected and looked up to, and no one in the village really seems to show sympathy for it. Instead, they decide to whisper behind your back about it. You are alone. You have no real friends, because none of them care about who you are nearly as much as about what you are. How many of those girls do you really think knew his thoughts or feelings? How many do you think actually cared about him, aside from his coolness? The one thing you have left to live for is the purpose your brother left for you, and your world is consumed by it. You must achieve it, nothing else matters. Everything you believed in, everything you stood for or thought life was about, was just ripped right out from under your feet, and that one goal is the last thing you have to cling to.

Then you're assigned to Team 7 with a mindless fangirl who adores you for shallow reasons and pesters you, and a class clown who hates you for your success and annoys you. You ride it out, knowing that you have to cooperate to get stronger. But it's all for that one goal. And for the vast majority of your history with them, neither of them really come to know anything about you aside from what they want to see. They're making of you what they want, caring for who they think you are, never bothering to ask, only to assume.

Just by the time you have spent with them, you begin to care for these two as comrades, and perhaps even friends. But this class clown, this loser, this dropout, he begins to outgrow you. Your whole goal is strength, enough to avenge your loss. His growth dwarfs your own, makes you feel meager, makes you feel as though your goal is forever out of reach. You will realize that you are fading into the monotony of the rest of the village, something you never wanted to be a part of. You are forgetting your purpose. And for who? For these "friends" who know nothing about you? These "comrades" who care nothing for how you really feel?

The answer is clear. You have one purpose, and for that purpose, you need power. You must seek it out whatever the cost. So you leave. You are not a person, anymore. You are not a friend, or an ally. You are not a comrade. You are an avenger whose heart was cast into darkness from that fateful night and ever after. And only your mission matters.

Your quest for vengeance has come to an end, and your brother is dead. But you come to learn that he was just a pawn for a higher authority. You learn that your brother was tasked with murdering the rest of your family for the sake of the village. You are the last of your family, and everyone who loved you as a child has died, all at the order of the Leaf. Your life is a lie, your suffering was for a lie, and you had spent your growing years sheltered beneath the wing of the dragon that destroyed everything and everyone who mattered to you.

Now, I'm not saying that I agree with everything Sasuke thought, or that I would make all of the decisions he would. But I am saying I understand how he became who he is, and I am saying that he had every reason to abandon the Leaf and his comrades. Naruto and Sakura called themselves his friends. How so? They cared for him? Why? They didn't even know him. They only assumed that they did. And they represent the very foundation of those who betrayed him and ruined his life, who took everything from him. Almost all of the fans call him a jerk. He is justified in how he feels, and in what he has done.

[Strangelove]

I don't know about the lot of you, but given the recent manga releases and this new ending for the anime(cascade by unlimits), I've all but lost hope that NaruSaku will ever come to be
It just looks like all the evidence is pointing to Hinata, and with all of the world being NaruHina, I'm finding it hard to keep the faith.
I need to rally, someone prove me wrong pleaaaaaaase!

Huhhhh? Recent Manga? You mean Itachi fighting a dragon is a proof for NaruHina?

[Darth Krypt]

Huhhhh? Recent Manga? You mean Itachi fighting a dragon is a proof for NaruHina?

Most likely the scene where Hinata wanted to hold hands with Naruto. And he saw Hinata fans celebrating going, "OMG, she finally wanted to make some active interaction with Naruto. NH is sooo totally canon!" or something like that.

[kirabook]

If I were in Sasuke's shoes, I would wimp out and stay depressed probably for the rest of my life. Revenge isn't my thing. If I were in his shoes and I made some friends, I wouldn't betray them and leave my sense of security and normalness. Again, revenge isn't my thing.

Sasuke could see Naruto definitely wasn't a mindless fanboy, and Naruto wasn't as stupid as he first assumed either. Sakura still was a bit of a fangirl desperate for any attention from him, but much less. And you're missing something, since they were little, Naruto and Sasuke did understand something deep about each other, they were both alone. That's an important part of the series... or it was. People who are alone flock together like flies to poop.

One was the village's pariah and the other the village's pride, 2 extremes that actually have a lot in common. Their understanding was always silent, as we saw in their battle at the Valley of the End, but it was still there. Naruto did see more, Sakura not so much. Naruto didn't treat him like anything other than another person. He didn't treat him as someone who could do no wrong, he wasn't so much as envious as just doing his best to create some relationship, that being rivalry, and he didn't really detest Sasuke either.

Do you think it's easy trying to learn something about someone that thinks of you so lowly that they aren't worth their time and friendship? That's how Sasuke was majority of the time, that slowly changed, and I have no doubt that Sasuke would have told them more about himself with time. When I was 12, I didn't go telling my friends or classmates my life story, not unless something dramatic happened and I needed a shoulder to lean on. Something dramatic DID happen to Sasuke, but what did he do? Instead of talking about it, spilling his guts to the people he gained the mutual trust of, he exploded on Naruto, and got even more upset when Naruto showed his strength.


Sasuke's original decision to go to Oro was insane, and I will admit he probably wasn't in his right mind. He was consumed by darkness and all he cared about was revenge. I guess I can't expect a 12 year old to see the bigger picture in life. But I gave him a slide for that, I gave him the benefit of the doubt that he could turn around sometime. I was happy when Sasuke killed Orochimaru. He was most likely thinking ahead and probably planned to kill him all along. I liked that. But after that, it seemed like he never thought anything through.

When Sasuke found out the "truth" about Itachi, and then decided to defy his brothers wishes who gave up everything for him and went to destroy the place that his brother wanted to protect, he's just lost any justification. Yes, you can let your emotions run rampant every now and then, but that's all Sasuke seems to do anymore. He doesn't think, he just goes with what he feels with no control whatsoever. Anyone with a brain would understand that ALL of Konoha was not involved in the murder of his family. Konoha is full of oblivious idiots. If Sasuke goal was just to kill the council involved in getting Itachi to kill his family, then ok, I can understand.

Shouldn't he understand that? No matter how deranged you are, I think he would understand he's killing innocent people that probably don't even know who the "Uchiha" are. If he's willing to get his hands dirty anyway after understanding that, then no, I don't like him at all. I do understand how Sasuke initially fell, but there were so many logical opportunities for him to break out of his chain of stupidity. It feels like Sasuke is "evil" now for the sake of a plot device rather than true emotional pain nowadays.

I will probably never like Sasuke after he leave to Orochimaru, and no amount of understanding will make me like his character either. I understand him alright, and I think his Top of the Class title should go to Shikamaru.

*excuse the rambling and being terribly off topic*

But I can justify this! This is why I wouldn't want Sakura to go for Sasuke at all. If he can't even think big decisions through all the way as a ninja should, imagine small relationship situations. I'd be afraid for Sakura's life... -well, not really, but at the same time, indeed-

Edited by kirabook, 06 April 2012 - 02:17 PM.

[FoolishYoungling]

It is no secret Sakura never had a chance ever.

[Mojo NS]

after watching the ending i was like lkfdnbgoej owjibvwi\b w vowrb !!!
i mean seriously ?naruto is fighting with sasuke - hinata and sakura are waiting for them (this is how i thought it meant naruhina and sasusaku) so why are they even putting hinata there? i think kishi or the animators or whoever are overrating Hinata's character . forcing her in the picture . now fans are raging saying wow totally naruhina and sasusaku ! i was even about to cry :\
i feel the same as you

[PachucoDesigns]

At this point, I wouldn't be as affected (compared to my hyper 14 year old self when I joined) if Narusaku didn't become canon. Maybe because we haven't had a moment in a while, or I'm just simply losing interest, but that just me. :/

Maturing quickly, eh? Well, it could be that you're losing interest. It's been dormant for a while, so that's to be expected. Still, as the story reaches its climax, that decisive moment rolls around, too.

[Fenris]

I've thought..... Compared to this, and the last ending - it's sort of backwards. In this ending we have Hinata and Sakura waiting for them.. and in the last ending we have Sakura and Hinata standing in a circle surrounded by a bunch of villagers, and Naruto in between them. Naruto is facing Sakura with his back towards Hinata - as if choosing Sakura.

Edited by Fenris, 06 April 2012 - 02:49 PM.

[Anguyen92]

I have heard of that before and if Kishimoto trolls all of us with something like that, I will be seriously pissed. If Kishimoto has any sense, he should know better and have been better at storytelling.
SasuSaku would probably be the biggest asspull EVER, even more so than NaruHina which is also an asspull to an lessser extent. I pray Kishimoto doesn't do that. NaruSaku is the one that makes
the most sense and I wish others from rival pairings would acknowledge that.

You know what. If Kishi has the heart and the commitment and the metagame to go through with the other pairings, then I want to see him go all the way with it, and not just half-ass it in that front, and keep teasing us into thinking that NaruSaku is a certainty.

You know, part of me wants the other pairings to happen, just to see the whole system fall apart in that front, just to expose how inconstant the storytelling was in the pairings front, and just to get people to realize see how logically sound it would have been if NaruSaku was canon, again I'm saying this in a hypothetical sense.

Edited by Anguyen92, 06 April 2012 - 03:15 PM.

[Smiter]

To all those who are making the snipes, keep the personal comments out of this topic. I would not like to have to shut this one down, like we did with the debate thread. Anyone who persists with their arguments/insults will find themselves cooling their heels for a while.

Thank you. Now, let's get back on topic, and stick to the subject matter ONLY.