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#7801 FoolishYoungling

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Posted 09 April 2018 - 06:22 AM

@AHK

 

You got me on that Doflamingo thing. That plot armor was more than enough to let Luffy get 10 minutes. But Luffy has to face his counter. No pirate king needs to be running behind trees to get his haki back while his navigator makes the opponent's defense go away. As for Sanji being on par with Zoro, I never said that. I'm not that kind of Sanji fan. I know Zoro's swords will always be better than Sanji's legs.

 

The whole Jinbei or Sanji argument is up for debate for the next few years. Nobody knows for sure except Oda and some of his editors what the power ranking will look like in the future. Sanji has always been the 3rd strongest on the crew, fighting the 3rd strongest, and being placed on the left to Luffy's hand, with Zoro at the right. Jinbei could break that up, or not get nearly as many powerups as the rest of the crew, as Jinbei nearly peaked as captain of the sun pirates. Who knows?

 

Lastly, the captain isn't way ahead. Mihawks isn't even Zoro's endgame. Unless Mihawk teams up with Blackbeard or something. Mihawk is a top 6 pirate, ranking somewhere right behind Shanks. Zoro surpassing him will put him at Yonko level, and then continuing on to get the One Piece and maybe something after will only get him stronger. I'm not saying Zoro will be the 2nd strongest pirate, but he'll be top 5 among them all. That's close to Pirate King. A lot of people are close. Garp, Shiki, and Whitebeard to name a few that we know from Roger's era.


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#7802 AHK

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Posted 11 April 2018 - 07:59 PM

@AHK

 

You got me on that Doflamingo thing. That plot armor was more than enough to let Luffy get 10 minutes. But Luffy has to face his counter. No pirate king needs to be running behind trees to get his haki back while his navigator makes the opponent's defense go away. As for Sanji being on par with Zoro, I never said that. I'm not that kind of Sanji fan. I know Zoro's swords will always be better than Sanji's legs.

 

The whole Jinbei or Sanji argument is up for debate for the next few years. Nobody knows for sure except Oda and some of his editors what the power ranking will look like in the future. Sanji has always been the 3rd strongest on the crew, fighting the 3rd strongest, and being placed on the left to Luffy's hand, with Zoro at the right. Jinbei could break that up, or not get nearly as many powerups as the rest of the crew, as Jinbei nearly peaked as captain of the sun pirates. Who knows?

 

Lastly, the captain isn't way ahead. Mihawks isn't even Zoro's endgame. Unless Mihawk teams up with Blackbeard or something. Mihawk is a top 6 pirate, ranking somewhere right behind Shanks. Zoro surpassing him will put him at Yonko level, and then continuing on to get the One Piece and maybe something after will only get him stronger. I'm not saying Zoro will be the 2nd strongest pirate, but he'll be top 5 among them all. That's close to Pirate King. A lot of people are close. Garp, Shiki, and Whitebeard to name a few that we know from Roger's era.

He did face his counter, he fought Katakuri. Katakuri was also a direct counter to Luffy, just in a different way. Cracker's advantage was simply one of time. Luffy was stronger than Cracker, Cracker simply fights by stalling. That's why Nami was so relevant. It wasn't because Luffy was too weak, it was to counter the time that Cracker was trying to waste. Nami's role was to make the limitless army irrelevant by making them soft enough for Luffy to eat so that he could continue to fight without much worry regarding the time constraint. He was more than strong enough to beat Cracker and would have clobbered him had Cracker fought straight up. I was referring to the part where you mentioned that Zoro and Sanji should be close to Luffy. That does two things, scales Sanji to Zoro, and Zoro and Sanji to Luffy, both of which are fallacious.

 

Sanji's only been the third strongest because no one came along that was stronger. That doesn't mean that he can't be surpassed. Sanji is not Luffy's left hand in anything other than strength, which ties back into what I just said, and is frankly irrelevant. Sanji isn't as important as your statement tried to make him seem such that he can't be surpassed in strength. There's nothing to suggest that Jinbe has hit his peak, and that he can't get stronger. In fact, we know he's going to get plenty stronger, as he's devoted himself to Luffy just as everyone else has.

 

The captain is miles ahead. Always. This is something that has been commented on and shown numerous times. The crew's reaction to Luffy on TB. The difference between Lucci and the rest of CP9 when their strength was measured. The difference between an old, dying WB and Marco. The captains are significantly stronger. Hell, you can look at the marines for further confirmation. The difference between the Admirals and the VA's (not counting Garp, because he isn't a true VA) is massive. Again, Mihawk is the culmination of Zoro's dream. Mihawk might not even be, and probably isn't, a top 10 fighter period. By the time Zoro fights Mihawk, Luffy will have already fought an array of people within the top 10. The gap is huge. Zoro might end up being one of the top 10 by the time the series is all said and done, but there will exist a significant gap between him and Luffy at that point.


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#7803 BlueStarSaber

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Posted 11 April 2018 - 08:14 PM

For all we know jinbei might now regarded as the second strongest straw hat given how he was a former warlord

#7804 sushi.

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Posted 11 April 2018 - 08:21 PM

For all we know jinbei might now regarded as the second strongest straw hat given how he was a former warlord

Warlords aren't *that* strong except Mihawk, but Jinbe is powerful. I wouldn't assume anything before Zoro and Sanji have a real battle, and who knows maybe Jinbe got stronger too PT.

Edited by sushi., 12 April 2018 - 07:47 PM.

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#7805 rocci

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Posted 12 April 2018 - 11:25 AM

Sanji Will always number 3 in term of streght. He just lack feat in post Time skip because be doesn't get any (true) battle.

#7806 AHK

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 06:16 PM

Luffy aside, Jinbe has either had or been part of like the three best moments this arc:

 

spoiler
Loved this scene. His relationship with Luffy is one of the reasons I love Jinbe so much. The respect they have for each other is awesome. I also love how this scene unequivocally confirms Jinbe as a SH, as if there was any doubt. And yet there are still people talking about how Jinbe is going to die. :laughcry:

 

Warlords aren't *that* strong except Mihawk, but Jinbe is powerful. I wouldn't assume anything before Zoro and Sanji have a real battle, and who knows maybe Jinbe got stronger too PT.

What? Jinbe isn't that strong? Doflamingo isn't that strong? Hancock isn't that strong?

 

Sanji Will always number 3 in term of streght. He just lack feat in post Time skip because be doesn't get any (true) battle.

You have no idea if that's true or not. In fact, there's more evidence than not to suggest that's false. Sanji doesn't have the be the third strongest, and there isn't anything to suggest that he would always be. He isn't Zoro, so his position isn't locked in like that.


Edited by AHK, 16 April 2018 - 06:18 PM.

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#7807 sushi.

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 08:15 PM

^Being a shichibukai doesn't indicate that a person is superstrong.

I realize my comment sounded contradictory-because I said Jinbe was strong, I just wouldn't assume anything of his previous position because there's a big power difference between the members.

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#7808 FoolishYoungling

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 10:20 PM

Jinbei is slightly ahead of Zoro and ahead by Sanji by a good bit. With that being said, both Sanji and Zoro are half of Jinbei's age. They'll both grow in strength way more. Jinbei has already mastered his fishman karate.

 

As for those panels AHK posted. I got shook when Luffy said he was Jinbei's captain and put on the cloak. Holy crap Luffy...


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#7809 LuckyChi7

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Posted 17 April 2018 - 12:50 AM

I know I haven't anything here in a longtime, but I got to say Whole Cake Island has been the best arc in the new world saga thus far, and seeing it's finale or finale to come is gonna be amazing for sure. 

 

I guess that means, I should start prepping up a day for The One Piece Podcast: Whole Cake Island Arc which I've been keeping in the back of my mind for the last year. 

 

 

Also been rewatching the anime from the beginning to remincis the glory of east blue saga, and ofcourse LuNa

 

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#7810 AHK

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Posted 17 April 2018 - 04:39 PM

Jinbei is slightly ahead of Zoro and ahead by Sanji by a good bit. With that being said, both Sanji and Zoro are half of Jinbei's age. They'll both grow in strength way more. Jinbei has already mastered his fishman karate.

 

As for those panels AHK posted. I got shook when Luffy said he was Jinbei's captain and put on the cloak. Holy crap Luffy...

There is literally no justification for the bold. There is nothing that has presented in this story that suggests that Jinbe can't grow stronger at the same clip that Zoro and Sanji will. Zoro will obviously eclipse him, but there really is nothing that shows Sanji will ever be stronger than or as strong as Jinbe.


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#7811 FoolishYoungling

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Posted 17 April 2018 - 09:05 PM

Except for the fact that it is hard to take him out of the monster trio. Most see endgame Sanji being able to go toe to toe with admirals and beat them. No clue where endgame Jinbei is at. He has had like 20 years to get to his current level of power. Took Zoro and Sanji about 3.

 

How much of an increase to his bounty did he get for leaving the shichibukai after so many years? He was 76 million 12 years ago. Years later, he joined the shichibukai at 250 million. After around 10 years, he jumped to 400 million. There is no way he ends up with a higher bounty than Zoro or Sanji at endgame, seeing how those 2 have progressed much faster. Sanji will be at 400+ million worthy in like 50-100 more chapters. Sure Jinbei will be getting a nice jump from this arc (guessing 500-550). So if after Wano (Jinbei showing up late) Jinbei is only 100 million above Sanji, and let's say 50 million below Zoro, how will Sanji not jump him? 3 years for Sanji to get 400+, and 12+ years for Jinbei to get 500+.


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#7812 AHK

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Posted 18 April 2018 - 06:49 PM

Except for the fact that it is hard to take him out of the monster trio. Most see endgame Sanji being able to go toe to toe with admirals and beat them. No clue where endgame Jinbei is at. He has had like 20 years to get to his current level of power. Took Zoro and Sanji about 3.

 

How much of an increase to his bounty did he get for leaving the shichibukai after so many years? He was 76 million 12 years ago. Years later, he joined the shichibukai at 250 million. After around 10 years, he jumped to 400 million. There is no way he ends up with a higher bounty than Zoro or Sanji at endgame, seeing how those 2 have progressed much faster. Sanji will be at 400+ million worthy in like 50-100 more chapters. Sure Jinbei will be getting a nice jump from this arc (guessing 500-550). So if after Wano (Jinbei showing up late) Jinbei is only 100 million above Sanji, and let's say 50 million below Zoro, how will Sanji not jump him? 3 years for Sanji to get 400+, and 12+ years for Jinbei to get 500+.

It really isn't that hard, given that the monster trio is more of a fan thing than anything else. It doesn't matter where "most" see Sanji, most obviously referring to his fans, and who his fans think he'd be able to fight effectively.

 

So no you're resorting to using bounties as evidence, while knowing that bounties in reality mean nothing in regards to strength? Luffy was tabbed at only 500 million, and showed that he's worth far more than that when he beat both Cracker and Katakuri. Also,  you seem to forget that after 400 million, it takes a lot for them to move you upward. There is no reason to suggest that Sanji would grow any faster than Jinbe would, especially now that Jinbe is actually going to be fighting for something, whereas before he really wasn't.

 

So do you have any real reason that Jinbe can't progress as fast and won't be just as strong or stronger that isn't speculation based on nothing?


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#7813 FoolishYoungling

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Posted 18 April 2018 - 07:47 PM

Yes bounties matter if you have fought. 99% of the time, bounties are spot on determining power level, unless they had the bounty locked. Of course when you compare the bounties the Straw Hats have against their opponents, they beat the higher bounties. The fact that 250 million to 400 million took him about 10 years isn't evidence to you? Idk anybody to be that active, rise to that high of a number, to just go and end up 3x stronger over the course of like 1-3 years. I mean, Jinbei has been in how many battles? What does he have to master that he hasn't already got as good at as he could at? Most of the increase to Jinbei's bounty to come is strength he just hasn't had to show to the world yet. In 1 month of 3 key battles, Luffy got 2x stronger because his peak is pirate king. Zoro and Sanji still have a distance to go with battle strategy and haki, and the minute they get a big key fight in Wano, they should grow incredibly in strength. That's how Zoro ends up at Yonko level, and maybe Sanji too.

 

No telling how many battles Jinbei has had, and here he is after 12-25 years, and only a little past 400 million right now. With what we've seen from Jinbei in Whole Cake, he should be a little over 500, not 400. But then again, we've not seen Sanji or Zoro fight a real full fight challenge since time skip either. Jinbei fought Ace for DAYS. That alone is a huge resume of experience fighting. With Zoro fighting people like Jack in Wano (not saying that has to be his fight, or that he would win), the Zoro vs Jinbei debate dies. Then consider how much stronger Zoro grows from those opponents.

 

Now think about Sanji, who has always been a little behind Zoro. Only reason he is about 150 million over him right now is because he fought Pica while they didn't know what Sanji was doing. We know Jinbei won't be around at first, so that means Sanji gets to fight a bigger opponent. With fighting them comes that giant powerup. If he could actually fight Daifuku instead of run, win or lose, no telling how much he would grow, but it would be by a lot. So if Sanji, who has always been right behind Zoro, grows as fast as Zoro (who is at 320, about to be at least 2x higher after Wano), there is no way Jinbei shows up to Wano without only being a fragment stronger than Sanji, at most. If Jinbei is a fragment stronger than a 21 year old Sanji with 3 years of experience, NO WAY he is stronger than a Sanji endgame.

 

The minute Sanji is pushed to his limits and forced to use up every bit of haki, those legs will become unbelievably strong. For reference, the strongest legs belong to Sai (maybe?), whose kick can one day, or already can destroy an entire island. When Sanji's legs/armament haki reach that level, to the point where he can do that without that families technique being passed down, what can fishman karate do against that? And of course Sanji is already the 2nd fastest Straw Hat, only behind Brooks, who might only be 1st as a gag to his speed on water. I'm not saying endgame Jinbei isn't stupid strong, but it doesn't make sense for him to all of a sudden grow fast after so many years of experience and fights brought him this far.

 

Also would reference you to this https://www.reddit.c...fthand_men_sbs/ even though I understand if you don't care for it because the french version isn't on the internet.

 

Idk if it will happen, but I hope Luffy names some commanders. Jinbei, Zoro, and Sanji. Ranking will sort itself out with time, but it would just make the group seem more Yonko-ish.


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#7814 AHK

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Posted 18 April 2018 - 08:58 PM

Yes bounties matter if you have fought. 99% of the time, bounties are spot on determining power level, unless they had the bounty locked. Of course when you compare the bounties the Straw Hats have against their opponents, they beat the higher bounties. The fact that 250 million to 400 million took him about 10 years isn't evidence to you? Idk anybody to be that active, rise to that high of a number, to just go and end up 3x stronger over the course of like 1-3 years. I mean, Jinbei has been in how many battles? What does he have to master that he hasn't already got as good at as he could at? Most of the increase to Jinbei's bounty to come is strength he just hasn't had to show to the world yet. In 1 month of 3 key battles, Luffy got 2x stronger because his peak is pirate king. Zoro and Sanji still have a distance to go with battle strategy and haki, and the minute they get a big key fight in Wano, they should grow incredibly in strength. That's how Zoro ends up at Yonko level, and maybe Sanji too.

 

No telling how many battles Jinbei has had, and here he is after 12-25 years, and only a little past 400 million right now. With what we've seen from Jinbei in Whole Cake, he should be a little over 500, not 400. But then again, we've not seen Sanji or Zoro fight a real full fight challenge since time skip either. Jinbei fought Ace for DAYS. That alone is a huge resume of experience fighting. With Zoro fighting people like Jack in Wano (not saying that has to be his fight, or that he would win), the Zoro vs Jinbei debate dies. Then consider how much stronger Zoro grows from those opponents.

 

Now think about Sanji, who has always been a little behind Zoro. Only reason he is about 150 million over him right now is because he fought Pica while they didn't know what Sanji was doing. We know Jinbei won't be around at first, so that means Sanji gets to fight a bigger opponent. With fighting them comes that giant powerup. If he could actually fight Daifuku instead of run, win or lose, no telling how much he would grow, but it would be by a lot. So if Sanji, who has always been right behind Zoro, grows as fast as Zoro (who is at 320, about to be at least 2x higher after Wano), there is no way Jinbei shows up to Wano without only being a fragment stronger than Sanji, at most. If Jinbei is a fragment stronger than a 21 year old Sanji with 3 years of experience, NO WAY he is stronger than a Sanji endgame.

 

The minute Sanji is pushed to his limits and forced to use up every bit of haki, those legs will become unbelievably strong. For reference, the strongest legs belong to Sai (maybe?), whose kick can one day, or already can destroy an entire island. When Sanji's legs/armament haki reach that level, to the point where he can do that without that families technique being passed down, what can fishman karate do against that? And of course Sanji is already the 2nd fastest Straw Hat, only behind Brooks, who might only be 1st as a gag to his speed on water. I'm not saying endgame Jinbei isn't stupid strong, but it doesn't make sense for him to all of a sudden grow fast after so many years of experience and fights brought him this far.

 

Also would reference you to this https://www.reddit.c...fthand_men_sbs/ even though I understand if you don't care for it because the french version isn't on the internet.

 

Idk if it will happen, but I hope Luffy names some commanders. Jinbei, Zoro, and Sanji. Ranking will sort itself out with time, but it would just make the group seem more Yonko-ish.

Again, bounties don't really matter and aren't really indicative of much besides having a general idea or where they are. And no, Jinbe's bounty going from 250 to 400+ million after ten years really doesn't mean anything. His bounty was frozen at 250. The only thing they were taking into account was his departure from the WG. That's what they were considering. Also LOL at the idea that Zoro and Sanji will be on Yonko level after Wano. And you're still refusing to take into account that Jinbe would be getting stronger right there too, and he'd be fighting people on par or stronger than those Sanji would be fighting.

 

Sanji is not "a little behind Zoro". At one point he was, but it's patently clear that he's not. Stop trying to tie Sanji to Zoro in order to make Sanji seem stronger. Again, you're basing your point on absolutely nothing. It's just speculation, and in other cases, false interpretation in regards to the bounties, and that bit about Sanji's speed.

 

In regards to that, you're absolutely wrong. The idea that Sanji is the second fastest SH was just a ridiculous lie by Sanji's fanbase in order to give him something. The SBS was referring to a 50 meter race. It said that Brook was the fastest, and that Zoro would place 5th simply because he'd get lost. It obviously wasn't as serious as people made it out to be, and if you actually think that anybody on the crew is faster than Luffy, then there's really no point bothering anymore. If you're trying to take a statement about a 50 meter race that far out of context to try and make Sanji look better, then we're just going to end up talking in circles because that's nothing more than fanboyism. It's the same garbage Sanji fans tried to pull about the CoO specialization, where they tried to say that Sanji had better CoO than Luffy because he specialized in it, and then that nonsense got destroyed. Luffy's performance against Katakuri proved both of those wrong.


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#7815 FoolishYoungling

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Posted 18 April 2018 - 10:41 PM

When did I say they were Yonko level after Wano? I said Zoro would at least double his bounty from Wano. 640+ million isn't even close to Yonko. And yes Sanji is close to him. They still have those bro fights, but of course Zoro is a level above. I'm saying that Sanji is still close to Zoro. Sanji has fought against 4 guys stronger than Hody (who Zoro fought before he took another 50,000 drugs) and Pica. Lost 2 and couldn't fight Daifuku more than just keeping him at bay while everyone kept on with the escape plan. Not counting the one against Judge because Sanji didn't go all out, and was stopped from attacking due to the guys he didn't want to let sacrifice themselves.

 

Sanji has kept fighting with Zoro in their grudge matches, so I have no reason to believe Zoro is more than a little stronger. I mean, he's only fought a 10% Hody and a Pica that just fought by hiding. Seeing as how Pica was Doflamingo's right hand man and how the Hody fight was underwater, both those feats are incredible. Still, Sanji has lost, but fought much tougher challenges. He just got done 1 hitting two big mom pirates, Bobbin and Raisin. Sanji couldn't take a kick from Vergo like 2 months ago. Then a month ago his haki could challenge Doflamingo (not his speed though), and now his haki can counter Daifuku's, but probably not beat.

 

The growth is definitely happening, and it's happening very fast. Oda just doesn't have time to show it. I mean, how does it make sense for Sanji to go from cracking his leg against Vergo to kicking away that genie's attack? It's not like he fought Vergo to his limits like Luffy has being doing with strong opponents.


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#7816 LuckyChi7

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Posted 19 April 2018 - 05:13 AM

So what do you guys think will happen in the next chapter?

Ive got a few predictions actually..

1. Jinbe and the boys vs Big Mom Pirates
2. Something on Pudding and Sanji
3. Whole Cake Island Arc ends this chapter.

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#7817 FoolishYoungling

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Posted 19 April 2018 - 11:44 AM

1. We don't see Jinbei for another 50 chapters (unless he gets like 1 panel this chapter) Tough prediction because he could just as easily get a handful of panels this chapter, but I like to think Oda makes us say "WAIT! IS HE OKAY!?"

 

2. Sanji and Pudding conversation is revealed. Something like a don't forget about me and a kiss.

 

3. Last panel is Zoro. Would be the perfect welcome to the arc changing. LET'S GO BABY!!! WANOOOOO!!!! Oh wait... what about Reverie? Crap... Okay Reverie first...


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#7818 LuckyChi7

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Posted 19 April 2018 - 12:12 PM

1. We don't see Jinbei for another 50 chapters (unless he gets like 1 panel this chapter) Tough prediction because he could just as easily get a handful of panels this chapter, but I like to think Oda makes us say "WAIT! IS HE OKAY!?"

 

2. Sanji and Pudding conversation is revealed. Something like a don't forget about me and a kiss.

 

3. Last panel is Zoro. Would be the perfect welcome to the arc changing. LET'S GO BABY!!! WANOOOOO!!!! Oh wait... what about Reverie? Crap... Okay Reverie first...

 

That does seems like Oda would do  with Jinbe right now.   

 

As for Sanji and Pudding I could definitely see that happening, and it's been quite a long time, but I do wonder if what gets revealed between the two becomes something similar to what it was for Ussop and Kaya during the East Blue Saga. 

 

Seeing Zoro  would be pretty amazing actually, but I think Reveire could also be the thing that we get for the time being. I just checked through the wiki and unless Volume 85 is like 12-13 chapters.. I could see  Reviere arc lasting atleast an entire volume and then we hit Wano towards the end. That and a reunion with Vivi and the strawhats would be a nice treat it's been so long. 

 

I guess for now we'll just have to wait and see.     


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#7819 LuckyChi7

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Posted 20 April 2018 - 10:25 AM

Wow I just read the latest chapter, and wow that was done pretty well... best arc of the new world thus far.

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#7820 FoolishYoungling

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Posted 20 April 2018 - 11:41 AM

PUDDING WHY!?!?!?


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