99 replies to this topic

[Nar123]

 

Once again, Nar, you sure know whatcha mean!

 

No prob

I like to debate 

[TouKen4Life3g]

Also for the record, if NS happen instead, it wouldn't mean Sakura is a great heroine. No offense guys. Just letting the OP know my position.

Edited by NaruSaku4Life3g, 07 April 2015 - 06:29 PM.

[Don'tMindME]

 

I will give you context then

 

+Naruto's character, emotional knowledge is a known factor that he has, it's present durign the whole manga, he is in touch with his emotions and empathizes easily with people, that's one thing that made him different to other shonen protagonists like Goku 

 

If you want proof, just look at Naruto's confrontation with Zabuza at the bridge, or with Gaara, or with Sasuke, or with Sakura during the POAL, his confrontation with Dark Naruto.

 

During the last this was just completely forgotten/ erased and they made Naruto's emotional knowledge that of a small kid, all of this because they had to find a excuse as to why did Naruto didn't addressed Hinata's blatant confession, the best way they could find was to make him an emotional retard that confused her love to love for food. This is a retcon that damaged one of the MC main characteristcs.

 

+How he is OOC?

Its simple, after Hinata is taken (and after a brief confrontation), Naruto simply gives up, he gives up on everything, the world, his friends, everything and all of this because he was down because Hinata basically rejected him

 

Now don't get me wrong, the error isn't on Naruto giving up per see,the error is on why he gave up like that, the excuse was too weak. A IC Naruto would do everything to go after Hinata and demand explanation like he did with Sasuke, not once he actually gave up on Sasuke not even during the times Sasuke was actually crazy 

 

That's why this scene makes him OOC and the japanes began to call him scumbag.

 

+ Hinata going back on her development

 

We all know HInata is pretty much a static character, her only development in part 2 is bound to Naruto, which is a shame. However the worst thing is that even this little development she had was screwed upon

 

Remember that at war arc she said she would begin to walk close to him and things like that, here she vowed she would stand by his side? Well in the movie mainly at the beginning what we saw was just the pitful Hinata from the beginning of part 2, incapable of handling herself around Naruto and going against her hinted foreshadowing

 

 

+Corrupted plot theme

You didn't ask me for this one but I will detail it anyway

The destiny plot theme was introduced in part 1 in the Neji vs Hinata fight, then it was corrupted in part 2 with all the chosen one, reincarnation BS. The last hurt this even more by making Hinata "the byakugan princess", the one destined to end Toneri's lame ambitions

*On Naruto's character

 

Naruto isn't a perfect person. He understands a lot about the pain of loss, loneliness, wanting to be accepted and he can relate to those with these issues butthat doesn't mean he is some master guru who understands everything. Naruto had never experienced real romantic love though, especially towards himself. If Naruto was such an emotional master he would've seen through Hinata years ago. 

Naruto himself stated that he doesn't know much when it comes to girls when he says that when saying goodbye to his father.

 

It still comes back though as he still is able to talk-no-jutsu Tenori at the end, because he is able to relate to him.

 

Everything else you said is a fair criticism, but I just don't see them as game breakers for me. Most of them are just how movies work. You need a down time when things are looking grim in the second act so they made Naruto get depressed. They needed to pull back Hinata's progress a bit because otherwise they are already halfway into the romance before the movie even starts. And the corrupt plotlines is something that happened ever since they started this destiny child crap back during the pain arc. 

Edited by Don'tMindME, 07 April 2015 - 06:41 PM.

[Don'tMindME]

Also for the record, if NS happen instead, it wouldn't mean Sakura is a great heroine. No offense guys. Just letting the OP know my position.

It also doesn't suddenly make Naruto a father who is always home for his kids (I've seen this one said a couple of times). Kishi put that stuff in there as a message to his own kids, and the Hokage position was always described to be very busy and time consuming. What girl Naruto ends up with wasn't going to change that.

Edited by Don'tMindME, 07 April 2015 - 06:46 PM.

[Don'tMindME]

Also for the record, if NS happen instead, it wouldn't mean Sakura is a great heroine. No offense guys. Just letting the OP know my position.

Just a bit more on Sakura's character. She needed to be more of her own person. All she ever did was react to either Naruto and Sasuke. And all her powers where just copied from Tsunade.

 

She needed her own destiny and ambitions outside of getting with Sasuke and keeping up with Naruto. All the medic stuff ever did was to give her something to do other then fight and solidified her place sitting in the back reacting to the mains.

 

Why couldn't she have made her own jutsu? Why didn't Asura and Indra have a sister? Why didn't Sakura have a destiny?  

Edited by Don'tMindME, 07 April 2015 - 06:53 PM.

[TouKen4Life3g]

For the record, let's not argue here. Take it elsewhere. I'm just waiting for the OP to respond back.

[Hiraishin]

*On Naruto's character
 
Naruto isn't a perfect person. He understands a lot about the pain of loss, loneliness, wanting to be accepted and he can relate to those with these issues butthat doesn't mean he is some master guru who understands everything. Naruto had never experienced real romantic love though, especially towards himself. If Naruto was such an emotional master he would've seen through Hinata years ago. 
Naruto himself stated that he doesn't know much when it comes to girls when he says that when saying goodbye to his father.

Bolded - yes he has. No retconning is gonna change that. And even if you've never experienced romantic love, I'm pretty sure you're not going to think it's the same as love for food (like what the kitten, is he a total moron?)

I mean, Naruto never had parents or siblings but he felt that being with Iruka was like having a father, and being with Sasuke was like having a brother. And, just because someone "doesn't know much" when it comes to girls doesn't mean they think love towards a girl is the same as love towards good. Why would it?

They made Naruto have the emotional intelligence of a kittening brick. That's not Naruto, by any means.

Also, I'm pretty sure Sakura wouldn't have let Naruto neglect his kids. And nobody's asking Naruto to be home at all times with his kid, but a little more time with them, and some more understanding would be great. It's peacetime, come on.

I agree with you about Sakura needing to be her own person, though. But I'm glad she wasn't a part of that reincarnation kitten.

Edited by Hiraishin, 07 April 2015 - 06:58 PM.

[sushi.]

Naruto never replied to Hinata's feelings because they didn't exist so they'd become canon. It was for her own growth and detanglement from Naruto, to walk beside him and become his equal etc. Shikamaru has said the exact same thing, because making good comrades along the way was a part of his journey to Hokage.

 

All I'm saying is Hinata's feelings were never relevant outside of Hinata's character, that's why Naruto never replied even after she blatantly told him what she felt.

[Don'tMindME]

Naruto never replied to Hinata's feelings because they didn't exist so they'd become canon. It was for her own growth and detanglement from Naruto, to walk beside him and become his equal etc. Shikamaru has said the exact same thing, because making good comrades along the way was a part of his journey to Hokage.

 

All I'm saying is Hinata's feelings were never relevant outside of Hinata's character, that's why Naruto never replied even after she blatantly told him what she felt.

I agree. HInata's feelings and love in general isn't something that's supposed to be relevant at all in the overall plot of the manga. It's a driving factor for 2 characters but it was never meant to take precedent over the greater themes of Naruto. Which is why it kinda why it bothers me to see people say pairings ruined Naruto, because it is for the most part ignored.

 

The only place romance is important is in The Last, but the movie is completely optional. You miss nothing in the story of Naruto by skipping it as Romance was never a large part.

[sushi.]

I agree. HInata's feelings and love in general isn't something that's supposed to be relevant at all in the overall plot of the manga. It's a driving factor for 2 characters but it was never meant to take precedent over the greater themes of Naruto. Which is why it kinda why it bothers me to see people say pairings ruined Naruto, because it is for the most part ignored.

 

The only place romance is important is in The Last, but the movie is completely optional. You miss nothing in the story of Naruto by skipping it as Romance was never a large part.

Hinata's feelings sure was a driving factor for Hinata, but are you seriously saying that her feelings drove Naruto too? Where? After the confession it was like it never happened. And since the beginning to 698, Naruto was continuously in love with Sakura. Sasuke was his brother, and she was his love interest. The two most important people in his life, and it should've remained that way. I liked the romance in Naruto romance is bonds, and bonds was one of the main themes. But the ending is all about romance, all about milking a dead cow. Of course people say the romance ruined the rest. It was a retcon and overshadowed everything else.

[Windking]

I could have lived with NH happening had it had the proper character development. NS was just too good of a story. But what really bruned my ass bad was this kitten right here...Like really? Everything he did, all the lives he ruined. Just for Kakashi to let him walk away scott free of it all? I really did expect him to die in the end. The death of the final uchiha to wash away all the sin in the world from his clan something like sacrificing himself to save naruto and just apologizing about it all Kishis all about his tragic stories why couldnt this one play out? Naruto promised he would bring back sasuske back, I was hoping it would be him in a casket.

 

But now Kishis Golden boy just had to get away with it all.

 

Edited by Windking, 07 April 2015 - 10:18 PM.

[goldenarms]

 

OP hasn't appeared again to discuss what he wanted to discuss so Idk

 

I'm here. Had to sleep, work, stuff like that.

 

And, man, there's a good amount of stuff here. I'm going to read through everything first before I post some of the things I want to talk about. I definitely got a few questions in mind, and I'm shaping those out on a separate txt file. Forum posting isn't like TFF, so I have to approach this differently.

Edited by goldenarms, 07 April 2015 - 11:07 PM.

[Don'tMindME]

Hinata's feelings sure was a driving factor for Hinata, but are you seriously saying that her feelings drove Naruto too? Where? After the confession it was like it never happened. And since the beginning to 698, Naruto was continuously in love with Sakura. Sasuke was his brother, and she was his love interest. The two most important people in his life, and it should've remained that way. I liked the romance in Naruto romance is bonds, and bonds was one of the main themes. But the ending is all about romance, all about milking a dead cow. Of course people say the romance ruined the rest. It was a retcon and overshadowed everything else.

Oh sorry no. I was talking how romantic feelings drove hinata and sakura, not naruto. Romance wasn't a driving factor for any male characters, except maybe Dan but he was already dead.

Edited by Don'tMindME, 07 April 2015 - 11:07 PM.

[rocci]

Oh sorry no. I was talking how romantic feelings drove hinata and sakura, not naruto. Romance wasn't a driving factor for any male characters, except maybe Dan but he was already dead.

Obito.

Poal for naruto.

[TouKen4Life3g]

Obito.

Poal for naruto.

End of story.

[Dario]

*On Naruto's character

 

Naruto isn't a perfect person. He understands a lot about the pain of loss, loneliness, wanting to be accepted and he can relate to those with these issues butthat doesn't mean he is some master guru who understands everything. Naruto had never experienced real romantic love though, especially towards himself. If Naruto was such an emotional master he would've seen through Hinata years ago. 

Naruto himself stated that he doesn't know much when it comes to girls when he says that when saying goodbye to his father.

 

l like how you talked about context before and now you're completely ignoring it in favor of some vague blanket statements about Naruto not being perfect or an "emotional master", because obviously you've got to be an emotional master to make the difference between romance and love for food. 

 

Anyway, here's some context for you:

 

-during the PoAL, he tells Sakura who's in tears after being rejected by Sasuke that he understands how she feels with a sad look on his face. This is blatantly telling the readers he's in love with Sakura like she's in love with Sasuke and knows the pain of romantic rejection.

-he asks his mother how she and his dad fell in love and blushes after being told the story. He knows about romantic couples.

-he blushes when Sai asks him if he likes Sakura and tells him he can't confess because he can't keep his promise. How anybody could think this very serious approach to romance fits with the Last's insultingly flippant "hurr it's not the same as liking ramen??" rationalization is beyond me.

-he gets incredibly pissed at Sakura lying to him about her feelings. Again if he had no idea what romantic love was he wouldn't have acted like that and the way he thinks love confessions are a big deal is completely at odds with him ignoring Hinata's.

 

So no, there's just no way in hell Naruto could realistically think a girl sacrificing her life for him while telling him she loves him meant that she likes him like her favorite food. It's simply absurd and makes Naruto come off as an alien who simply doesn't function like a human being. It destroys yet another key aspect of his characterization (his empathy) just like his 5 stars lineage destroyed his "don't lose to DNA" early theme or him collapsing in tears after failing half a dozen time during part 2 destroyed his perseverance and toughness. Naruto isn't perfect true and he doesn't need to be, but if you start destroying his original strong points, the things that made him endearing to a lot of people in the beginning, you just get a kitten character. Sadly that's what he became.

[harry4e]

Oh sorry no. I was talking how romantic feelings drove hinata and sakura, not naruto. Romance wasn't a driving factor for any male characters, except maybe Dan but he was already dead.

 

I'm not sure if I 100% agree with that statement, Minato's feelings for Kushina were shown as a driving force, he went on a solo rescue mission for her, he invented the Rasengan based on the Bijuu's main move, he saw Jinchuriki's as more than weapons because he was in love with one. And Obito almost destroyed the world for the girl he loved.

 

Naruto is the only person who was told in the entire series that the person they claimed to love was not reality, not even that he had mistaken like for love but he had no feelings for the girl in question at all, it was all just to win over Sasuke. No other charactors was ever told that their love was false, but we are told this about Naruto, and then expected to nod and not question it. They really want us to believe he took a chidori to the chest just to win the affection of a girl?

[Nar123]

 

Okay then 

 

 

*On Naruto's character

 

Naruto isn't a perfect person. He understands a lot about the pain of loss, loneliness, wanting to be accepted and he can relate to those with these issues butthat doesn't mean he is some master guru who understands everything. Naruto had never experienced real romantic love though, especially towards himself. If Naruto was such an emotional master he would've seen through Hinata years ago. 

Naruto himself stated that he doesn't know much when it comes to girls when he says that when saying goodbye to his father.

 

It still comes back though as he still is able to talk-no-jutsu Tenori at the end, because he is able to relate to him.

 

Everything else you said is a fair criticism, but I just don't see them as game breakers for me. Most of them are just how movies work. You need a down time when things are looking grim in the second act so they made Naruto get depressed. They needed to pull back Hinata's progress a bit because otherwise they are already halfway into the romance before the movie even starts. And the corrupt plotlines is something that happened ever since they started this destiny child crap back during the pain arc. 

 

 

+About Naruto's emotions

 

when did I call Naruto a perfect person? 

 

He understands about love too, after all it was Iruka's love and Team 7 companionship that saved him from becoming someone like Gaara, and that's why he could change Gaara, he showed Gaara that someone with more or less the same problems could turn out differently.

 

Funny you saying he never understood love, I mean that's why he could understand Sakura perfectly during the POAL huh? Or why he could understand what his mother felt for him and feel the same for her. Romantic love as you call it is just the the base emotion love with the addition of lust, thus calling Naruto never knew what romantic love is wrong since he felt both love ( for lot of people) and lust ( for Sakura, especially) 

 

Bringing Hinata to debunk the fact that Naruto is a person that knew his emotions makes no sense, Hinata was never that close to Naruto, he never had a reason to focus on her before, for him, she was just a friend and a leaf comrade. Just observe how Naruto is able to tell what Sakura felt during the POAL, or how he empathized with ruthless people like Zabuza and Gaara (making even the former cry).

Another example such as Hinata's is Shino, the poor guy isn't even noticed half the time by Naruto even though its a leaf comrade

 

Toneri is a one note villain, he was only used to pair NH at the last, even his VA admitted this, its useless to discuss about such a filler worthy character 

 

And where does the fact that Naruto says to his father that he doesn't know much about girls in a emotional moment discredit his knowledge anout emotions? You lost me there.

 

And last but not least, Naruto had feelings for Sakura, the story shows this clearly,  and he recognized it. He knew what love was and that makes his whole downgrade on the last a inexcusable retcon bringing him down to being dense level compared to that of Goku

 

+ You probably don't see as game breakers because maybe you didn't care about the characters or story in the first place? 

 

I mean, the problem isn't the down time, its how and why the down time starts, I already explained it was badly done and made Naruto OOC, also don't excuse Hinata's showcase of her lack of development with this argument of yours "otherwise they would be halfway through romance in the half of the movie" this is a suggestion which by no means can be confirmed, I actually think if they had left Hinata's development constant at least on the movie and made Naruto fall for her because of it and not because of a pity induced genjutsu then things would be quite a plus in the representation of their relationship 

 

About the corrupted plot line thing, well I already said it happened back in late part 2, but the last strenghtening it just make the matters worse, so its also no excuse 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It also doesn't suddenly make Naruto a father who is always home for his kids (I've seen this one said a couple of times). Kishi put that stuff in there as a message to his own kids, and the Hokage position was always described to be very busy and time consuming. What girl Naruto ends up with wasn't going to change that.

 

You talk as if there weren't hokage like Hashirama, Sarutobi or Tsunade who found time for their loved ones 

 

I mean, Hashirama spoiled Tsunade, Sarutobi found time to be an important part in the life of most shinobi in the village and Tsunade trained not only an apprentice but was also head of the hospital. It makes literary no sense for Naruto to be so busy in a time of peace

If KIshimoto had some twisted idea to self insert as Naruto in the last chapter not caring at all with coherent storytelling it just proves he is a worst writer than I thought

 

 

 

Just a bit more on Sakura's character. She needed to be more of her own person. All she ever did was react to either Naruto and Sasuke. And all her powers where just copied from Tsunade.

 

She needed her own destiny and ambitions outside of getting with Sasuke and keeping up with Naruto. All the medic stuff ever did was to give her something to do other then fight and solidified her place sitting in the back reacting to the mains.

 

Why couldn't she have made her own jutsu? Why didn't Asura and Indra have a sister? Why didn't Sakura have a destiny?  

 

At least Sakura didn't have a destiny, this would make things even worse for her character   .  This whole reincarnation thing had to be completely erased 

 

Otherwise I kind agree with your points

Out of the fact that if she was handled by a good writer Sakura still could turn out to be a good character with the intentions/ goals Kishi gave her in his original storyline

 

 

 

 

I agree. HInata's feelings and love in general isn't something that's supposed to be relevant at all in the overall plot of the manga. It's a driving factor for 2 characters but it was never meant to take precedent over the greater themes of Naruto. Which is why it kinda why it bothers me to see people say pairings ruined Naruto, because it is for the most part ignored.

 

The only place romance is important is in The Last, but the movie is completely optional. You miss nothing in the story of Naruto by skipping it as Romance was never a large part.

 

It's not completely optional, the last is canon, meaning its part of canon storyline and it should be analyzed as such ( this is why its such a bad movie, it craps on the whole manga canon) 

 

Romance is a important subplot in the manga, it is a drive( unfortunately) for one MC, Sakura, so it is indeed relevant and needed a good closure, it didn't had and contributed to the overall bad quality of the series.

 

And really pairings ignored? I'd say you didn't read Naruto at all, Kishi played with the pairings, pairing tease everywhere he was aware of its popularity and played with it, this much is clear. This playing around however was bad for this story because Kishi ended with a pairing such as NS with a fair development and chose to use NH, a underdeveloped pairing due to their lack of screentime in earlier arcs and the sudden aspects of their interactions, and SS, a pairing full of negative developoment and pointless one sided angst.

In short if Kishi's really bad at romance as he says he shouldn't have played it around in the first place, he should have did it like One Piece and ignored it entirely

 

And really, in what does it matter these "greater themes" if most of them were corrupted, changed or entirely forgotten?

Edited by Nar123, 08 April 2015 - 01:43 AM.

[Nar123]

l like how you talked about context before and now you're completely ignoring it in favor of some vague blanket statements about Naruto not being perfect or an "emotional master", because obviously you've got to be an emotional master to make the difference between romance and love for food. 

 

Anyway, here's some context for you:

 

-during the PoAL, he tells Sakura who's in tears after being rejected by Sasuke that he understands how she feels with a sad look on his face. This is blatantly telling the readers he's in love with Sakura like she's in love with Sasuke and knows the pain of romantic rejection.

-he asks his mother how she and his dad fell in love and blushes after being told the story. He knows about romantic couples.

-he blushes when Sai asks him if he likes Sakura and tells him he can't confess because he can't keep his promise. How anybody could think this very serious approach to romance fits with the Last's insultingly flippant "hurr it's not the same as liking ramen??" rationalization is beyond me.

-he gets incredibly pissed at Sakura lying to him about her feelings. Again if he had no idea what romantic love was he wouldn't have acted like that and the way he thinks love confessions are a big deal is completely at odds with him ignoring Hinata's.

 

So no, there's just no way in hell Naruto could realistically think a girl sacrificing her life for him while telling him she loves him meant that she likes him like her favorite food. It's simply absurd and makes Naruto come off as an alien who simply doesn't function like a human being. It destroys yet another key aspect of his characterization (his empathy) just like his 5 stars lineage destroyed his "don't lose to DNA" early theme or him collapsing in tears after failing half a dozen time during part 2 destroyed his perseverance and toughness. Naruto isn't perfect true and he doesn't need to be, but if you start destroying his original strong points, the things that made him endearing to a lot of people in the beginning, you just get a kitten character. Sadly that's what he became.

 

Thank you for this post, it was really well done

 

 

 

I could have lived with NH happening had it had the proper character development. NS was just too good of a story. But what really bruned my ass bad was this kitten right here...Like really? Everything he did, all the lives he ruined. Just for Kakashi to let him walk away scott free of it all? I really did expect him to die in the end. The death of the final uchiha to wash away all the sin in the world from his clan something like sacrificing himself to save naruto and just apologizing about it all Kishis all about his tragic stories why couldnt this one play out? Naruto promised he would bring back sasuske back, I was hoping it would be him in a casket.

 

But now Kishis Golden boy just had to get away with it all.

 

 

This pic is really funny

 

But seriously, Sasuke shouldn't die as it would further kill one of the story themes, that would be Naruto surpassing his masters 

 

Though even with that said, if KIshi was a good writer I can see how he could work up Sasuke's death as some kind of redemption for the sins he comitted with him entrusting the last of his goals into Naruto

 

What happened in the manga however was indeed bad even for his character his redemption and future goals should have been handled in a better manner, what they did to him was a disservice.

Sasuke's last goal was solid and made sense, as much as his methods were wrong, the shinobi world was rotten and was the cause of misery for a lot of people and a change was needed, of course at the same time Kishi also needed to convey to the readers that Sasuke really felt sorry for his actions earlier in the story (in which he failed).

I think the ideal ending for Sasuke would be him working together with Naruto to bring foward a new era, romance was never an aspect of his character so it shouldn't really be important.

 

 

Edited by Nar123, 08 April 2015 - 01:41 AM.

[Pix]

I would have been completely fine without Narusaku. Even now I still debate on whether they should have actually gotten together or not, specifically because of Sakura's viewpoint and her undeniable attachment to Sasuke.  

 

But for me, there was no grey area anymore. Especially once Kishimoto began to talk. That's when things really went downhill gradually.   

 

It's not just that Narusaku didn't get canon, and that's what a lot of people don't understand. It's that Sakura's importance was erased, A side character became a main character at the end of the series, the finale was rushed, a movie that didn't tie with canon at all was supposed to "end" the story, all underdeveloped couples became canon, the rudeness of his assistants, and kishimoto admitting that he barely wrote his own story. Not to mention that he's letting other people write his so called "canon" now, as we speak. 

 

So that's why I can't be a "moderate" fan anymore. I feel like we were all fooled by a guy and a company that executed a "legendary" story so horribly.