98 replies to this topic

[BestSasuHinaSupporter]

Take into account NaruSaku was far more popular than NaruHina in Japan, so the movie not only had to support the main romantic bond of the series (Naruto + Hinata) but to get rid of every single doubt that supported any other ship around.

 

In this case, the heroine through the series (Sakura) was the one who made this clear, and I don't appreciate that because shippingwars are annoying... but I'm kinda against one of the reasons they used for that:

"Once a girl falls in love it's really hard for her to change her mind"
 

Damm! I hate that quote, it's just horrible. I'm sure I've heard victims of abusive relationships use it before... who the hell was the scriptwriter in that part?

 

In my opinion Bleach did better in Rukia's wedding novel (killing the loser pairing options and theories) than Naruto with The Last.

The difference is the two previous manga panels were harmless, but that moment in The Last made me (and lot of people) felt uncomfortable... mostly because of the horrible message they were sending.

 

"I was just a trophy to you (Naruto is a sexist pig now, thanks Sakura) and I must love this person forever because I don't have other choice, and the same goes for Hinata. Once a girl falls in love is condemned to be after that person forever no matter what happens"

 

This is fantastic! (sarcasm) The Last made SasuSaku and NaruHina look like some kind of curse. To hell with the manga development.
 

Again, Kubo Tite did far better in Rukia's novel... both authors had to convince a bunch of radical shippers that there was nothing between the hero and the heroine, but Kishi approved on this mess and Kubo just knew how to properly differentiate between a soulsister and the woman you love.

Tsunade never stated her feelings for Dan were because of a curse, like Sakura did XD

She just loved him, he died tragically and there was absolutely no character similar to him (which was actually the type she was interested into)... the only man who wanted canonically to date Tsunade is Jiraiya (Dan's complete opposite), so he didn't stand a chance for years.

 

Ino loved Sasuke, until she met another guy who could fulfill her bishounen fantasy.

Lee loved Sakura, until... uhm... he found out he could get his dakimakura pregnant?

There are characters that weren't cursed like Sakura and Hinata. They grew, meet other people that fulfilled their fantasies and moved on BECAUSE THAT'S NORMAL.

 

The manga never stated feelings couldn't change, in fact the whole story is about feelings towards other changing (respect, friendship, hatred...)

The only thing at fault here is The Last.

Edited by BestSasuHinaSupporter, 01 March 2017 - 04:21 PM.

[sushi.]

I think NH is an idea that a lot of people can insert themselves in, but they don't care about the actual characters. Especially boys use themselves as a self-insert because they'd like to woo Hinata and therefore Naruto should too.

[ThroughWithLove]

So in reading this thread, here's what I gather as the general consensus:

 

When it comes to NaruHina, there is no appeal from a writing standpoint. People who prefer it prefer for reasons alien to telling a good story. NaruSaku supporters, on the other hand, were invested in actual storytelling and thus were befuddled when the most logical path in the story was not the result. That those of us here weren't simply "shippers", but wanted good storytelling. On that note, the author failed miserably.

 

 

 

OK since some people are complaining about people not being objective enough about Hinata and nH. I'll see if I can write an objective analyzes of nH from a writing stand point.

 

OK the backgrounds of the characters relationship at the start of the story: Naruto was an orphan since the day he was born and was alone for the first 12 years of his life. He was a pariah that everyone for the most part hated and simply wished to ignore. To gain the attention he had been denied he started pulling pranks. Eventually he came upon a dream to become hokage seeing it as the ultimate status in the village which would make everyone forced to notice him. So he decides to train and dedicate his life to this goal.

 

Hinata is heiress of the most powerful clan in the village, but she is so weak willed that she is closed to being disinherited by her father in favor of her younger sister. One day while crying about her situation she stumbles upon Naruto the dead last in the class that everyone hates training rigorously. The fact that a loser like him that even she is above in the class is training so hard surprises her. Then it inspires her that if even the failure of the class is working hard, and not giving up why should see. This leads her to being to admire him for his determination, which led to feeling of even deeper affection, but despite these feelings of deeper affection she has never truly interacted with Naruto before the start of the manga. In other despite her developing a crush towards Naruto she left him alone for the first 12 years of his life, again despite developing feeling for him during that time.

 

Start of the manga: Because Hinata has never interacted with Naruto while they at the academy in any meaningful way. Therefor cancelling out her chance at an early start with forming a connection with him. He instead develops feelings for another girl named Sakura, who he is put on the same team with. Also unlike Hinata he does pursue Sakura and make it obvious his feeling for her as well as clearly showing that he has been doing this since before the story started. In the chapter the girl Sakura is introduce we are also introduced to her crush Sasuke, who Naruto resent for being popular and for having Sakura affection, despite not desiring either. Also in Sakura's introduction chapter Naruto transforms into Sasuke to flirt with her in order to figure out how he can win her affection. He is successful at making her fall more in love for Sasuke. Hinata is not given an appearance until the third arc of the story. Also the arc is where she has a majority of her appearances in the first half of the story.

 

From their introduction and initial appearances at the start of the story: Naruto has two desire a desire for recognition which he feels he will get by becoming hokage, and his desire to win Sakura's affection. Sakura has a desire for Sasuke's affectation especially after "he" flirted with her. Hinata did not appear in the beginning of the story.

 

Hypothesis from initial introduction: Naruto will continue to work on his path toward becoming hokage hopefully learning some important lessons along the way. He will also like eventually win Sakura's affection seeing as Sasuke has no interest in her, and he was successful in his initial attempts.  Thought that case will probably screw him over for a time.

 

Continuing through part one of the story:

 

 

Note: Sorry just got a bad head ache I'll try and finishes this throughout the day.

 

When are you gonna continue this post? Was looking forward to reading the rest!

Edited by ThroughWithLove, 01 March 2017 - 05:50 PM.

[James S Cassidy]

 

So in reading this thread, here's what I gather as the general consensus:

 

When it comes to NaruHina, there is no appeal from a writing standpoint. People who prefer it prefer for reasons alien to telling a good story. NaruSaku supporters, on the other hand, were invested in actual storytelling and thus were befuddled when the most logical path in the story was not the result. That those of us here weren't simply "shippers", but wanted good storytelling. On that note, the author failed miserably

 

Exactly. We didn't read Naruto because we love NS. We loved NS because we read Naruto. Some of us were even NH fans until the story convinced us to see otherwise. This is why everything lately or in the past 2 years feels like a massive betrayal. Not only did they not care, but they even insulted us.

And believe me, there are plenty of NH, SS, and so many more shipping fans to absolutely agree with us.

 

 

When Hinata's criticisms include references to her body as some sort of unfair tool which manipulated fans into making a choice over waifus or plot, it's sexist.

Both Sakura and Hinata end up as boring characters by the end despite their potential. Some NS fans will defend Sakura to the death, but do some mental gymnastics to equate being curvy with being temptation for fanservice and the downfall of the series which lays the blame on her and not producers who never wanted to wrap the series up in a satisfying way so they could continue to milk their cash cow.

Which is what I am not doing at all, but rather complaining that the OTHER people did and this is why we got the ending we got and why I blame her for it.

Just because I am a male that criticizes a females personality trait or in this case, the fictional rewritten history of a female character.....it does not make a person sexist.. And if people do get offended by that....then maybe they are not as strong as they think. You can't live through life by easily being offended by everything. I could say "I am offended by people who wear crocks with socks," but people won't care. There are more important things to be offended by than just "You criticized a female character."
 
But this is all besides the point of the original topic of "Is it hypocritical of NS fans to criticize Hinata and yet say criticizing Sakura is wrong?" And the answer I give is "no" it is not hypocritical of me to do so because I keep in mind that the entire recent plot and even some of the major problems with the series was all a direct purposeful thing to get Naruto and Hinata together so Hinata fans can be happy.

Especially when SS is more of a byproduct and was never intended to keep the SS fans happy. They are making characters, including Sakura, look bad so Hinata can look better. Which is true.

I'll repeat this because everyone should keep this in mind:
Everything wrong with the story, characters, retcons, and even degraded development was a byproduct of making Hinata more important to the plot and for NH to get together. We know it is so much unnatural writing and we know it is forced. So if anything Sakura cannot be criticized for her mistakes anymore passed chapter 698 because they are forced on her character to make Hinata look better instead of Hinata standing on her own. Pre-698 Sakura and Post-698 Sakura are two completely different people.

It's like pretending to be stupid so your friend can look smarter. If everyone started calling you stupid, and you try to explain to them that you are not and it was all a ploy, they end up not believing you. I feel this is the same with this fandom.

They bash Sakura into the ground, but never do they realize that everything was all changed JUST to suit Hinata.

So it is rather easy for me to say that I am not being a hypocrite with what I am doing because let's be honest, was anything rewritten in this series to make Sakura look better or to suit Sakura's need or fandom? No, they didn't care about Sakura....and they care even less now if they ever cared at all.
 

It does nothing to convince a fan of Hinata or NH that we are not just throwing a tantrum because we didn't get our way.

You actually think they listen or pay attention?

I am not trying to convince them of anything anymore. They won't believe it no matter what and say you are throwing a temper tantrum just for even CRITICIZING the ending and the movie and such. These people don't accept anything beyond "Hinata is great and NH rules." These are the people who watched Hinata trip on a rock, giving up on Naruto's life, and still call her brave and amazing.

BUT.....it is a lot of fun to watch them lose their cool when you diss their precious queen Hinata. That's the difference. They get mad at every little negative things about Hinata. I don't get mad when they diss Sakura because to me every character beyond ch 698 are not the same as the people before.

So I'd say at this point....if you're going to get crapped on no matter what you do by these people....have a little fun.





 

Edited by James S Cassidy, 01 March 2017 - 08:43 PM.

[Konoha'sCrimsonFox]

They can't show Naruto's confession to Sakura cause Naruto loved Sakura and wanted to confess in the manga.

If he confessed in the manga, NS would have happened, the Last would not retcon anything and the Last would have not happened either which is why they've gone with : Naruto loved Sakura because of rivalry with Sasuke.

 

Naruto confessing his love to Sakura off-screen, not shown and saying the love was because of the rivalry with Sasuke is the only way for NH in the Last happening. 

 

It was implied by Kishi's interview in TL movie pamphlet that both Naruto and Sakura saw each other in a romantic light. All this was pass to play part of the false hope and mislead of the NS fanbase, this is why SP and Shuiesha allowed it during TL. 

[sushi.]

I don't think Saku-chan was attacking you personally James.

I think if you're sexist it depends on how you criticize Hinata. For example a lot of people protect Sakura from harassment because of her small boobs, and the same people bully Hinata for her big boobs.

[Saku-chan]

I never called anyone in here sexist.

If you read my post I say that it's fine to criticize Hinata as a character as long as it's not going down the, "She's a terrible character because her boobs are big and her submissive personality makes her appealing to beta otaku." This mindset can reinforce attitudes that a woman is at fault for the actions of others regarding her appearance. That's my main gripe with Hinata bashing. As long as we aren't doing that, I say criticize her character all you want.

[T XD]

 

It was implied by Kishi's interview in TL movie pamphlet that both Naruto and Sakura saw each other in a romantic light. All this was pass to play part of the false hope and mislead of the NS fanbase, this is why SP and Shuiesha allowed it during TL. 

How else will they bring money to their pockets if not putting some mislead to the audience.

Edited by T XD, 02 March 2017 - 09:34 AM.

[Phantom_999]

I never called anyone in here sexist.

If you read my post I say that it's fine to criticize Hinata as a character as long as it's not going down the, "She's a terrible character because her boobs are big and her submissive personality makes her appealing to beta otaku." This mindset can reinforce attitudes that a woman is at fault for the actions of others regarding her appearance. That's my main gripe with Hinata bashing. As long as we aren't doing that, I say criticize her character all you want.

 

Well, unfortunate as it is, it's the truth that she is "beta male otaku bait". Can aynone here explain her relevance to the story otherwise, one that is NOT overhyping her character by the fanboy fanatics of  SP? We've had countless discussion on Hinata's character before, she has little impact on the story. She could be replaced with another character and the story's flow wouldn't alter. She was just a sole Naruto fangirl to make up for the the 100+ fangirls that Sasuke has.

 

Now, am I saying Hinata is a bad character? No. Am I saying she is an irrelevant character, who so happens to be every Otaku's fantasy waifu? Definitely. Anyone who is a social shut in would want a person that would cook and clean for him/her and NEVER question what they do, which Hinata fits that bill perfectly. I, in general just have no patience and little tolerance for such a mindset personally, because I see such need dependence as  THE BANE of any healthy relationship

Edited by Phantom_999, 02 March 2017 - 07:52 PM.

[Konohakitten]

You know guys, I really tried to understand what this topic is about yesterday. Like I truly wanted to push my feelings aside so that I could try and understand what people see in NH, so I went and watched the last 3 episodes of Naruto. Now these are supposed to be "pre-wedding day" episodes,and in all reality I wanted to see the happy little couple because I wanted to see what in the world SP was going to do with them, but guess what, they were no where to been seen!! I was honestly dissapointed, because I thought we were going to get to see Naruto and Hinata getting everything ready themselves. In my head I thought SP was going to use these episodes as an opportunity to build the bond between the engaged couple, but nope, I gave them wayyyy to much credit. Instead these episodes, which had their moments, are literally a bunch of gag jokes relating to Naruto's friends finding him and Hinata a wedding gift. Now while some of them were funny, particularly the one with Shikamaru and Temari, most were just bland, and out right horrible, AKA an episode where Neji's spirit is dragged in for the sake of laughs.

 

Now after I was done watching said material I still had nothing to change my opinion. There was no new material to support this ship, instead these episodes did nothing to help boost the NH realationship. All they showed is that Naruto's friends have no idea what this "couple" has in common, because all their gift ideas were orientated on what they personally liked, example, dumbbells from Lee, and a kunai from Tenten, or gifts they all felt married people needed, such as a romantic dinner, and a honeymoon. There were no " Hinata and Naruto love doing this because they both....." lines because they literally have nothing in common. 

 

All we have for development outside of the manga is The Last, and from those events we have, a relationship that went from awkward interactions, to pity, to marriage, and this all happen in a matter of days in "movie" time. That's it, and from a writing point, or any point for that matter, it's ridiculous that people support it. However with this evidence I saw where NH does win, and that's in it's ability to touch so many people in different ways. This ship was written so that literally anyone could plug themselves into each person. In my experience most NH fans that I encountered where men, and they put themselves in Naruto's shoes. They wanted Hinata because she's "perfect" waifu material. What little female NH shippers I encountered thought the pairing was cute, and that it was admirable that a shy girl could win the hero's heart.

 

Either way this ship is based, purely on shippers delusions. It's different for everyone, since canonly there are only a few panels and movie for NH development, so shippers just insert their feelings and impressions to fill in the gaps. They themselves fabricate moments, they see "emotions, bonds, and even love" when there is nothing to begin with. I had a guy tell me the other day that NH had a spiritual bond from the moment Hinata was introduced, and I was like, where do these people get these ideas from, and the answer is that so much imagination and fluff has been poured into this ship that people believe it all to be true when in reality there's nothing to back it up. You add in the creator, who keeps putting his foot in his mouth time, and time again, and the fandom only get's gas added to the train wreak that is Naruto.

Edited by Konohakitten, 03 March 2017 - 12:07 AM.

[Bail o' Lies]

You know guys, I really tried to understand what this topic is about yesterday. Like I truly wanted to push my feelings aside so that I could try and understand what people see in NH, so I went and watched the last 3 episodes of Naruto. Now these are supposed to be "pre-wedding day" episodes,and in all reality I wanted to see the happy little couple because I wanted to see what in the world SP was going to do with them, but guess what, they were no where to been seen!! I was honestly dissapointed, because I thought we were going to get to see Naruto and Hinata getting everything ready themselves. In my head I thought SP was going to use these episodes as an opportunity to build the bond between the engaged couple, but nope, I gave them wayyyy to much credit. Instead these episodes, which had their moments, are literally a bunch of gag jokes relating to Naruto's friends finding him and Hinata a wedding gift. Now while some of them were funny, particularly the one with Shikamaru and Temari, most were just bland, and out right horrible, AKA an episode where Neji's spirit is dragged in for the sake of laughs.

 

Now after I was done watching said material I still had nothing to change my opinion. There was no new material to support this ship, instead these episodes did nothing to help boost the NH realationship. All they showed is that Naruto's friends have no idea what this "couple" has in common, because all their gift ideas were orientated on what they personally liked, example, dumbbells from Lee, and a kunai from Tenten, or gifts they all felt married people needed, such as a romantic dinner, and a honeymoon. There were no " Hinata and Naruto love doing this because they both....." lines because they literally have nothing in common. 

 

All we have for development outside of the manga is The Last, and from those events we have, a relationship that went from awkward interactions, to pity, to marriage, and this all happen in a matter of days in "movie" time. That's it, and from a writing point, or any point for that matter, it's ridiculous that people support it. However with this evidence I saw where NH does win, and that's in it's ability to touch so many people in different ways. This ship was written so that literally anyone could plug themselves into each person. In my experience most NH fans that I encountered where men, and they put themselves in Naruto's shoes. They wanted Hinata because she's "perfect" waifu material. What little female NH shippers I encountered thought the pairing was cute, and that it was admirable that a shy girl could win the hero's heart.

 

Either way this ship is based, purely on shippers delusions. It's different for everyone, since canonly there are only a few panels and movie for NH development, so shippers just insert their feelings and impressions to fill in the gaps. They themselves fabricate moments, they see "emotions, bonds, and even love" when there is nothing to begin with. I had a guy tell me the other day that NH had a spiritual bond from the moment Hinata was introduced, and I was like, where do these people get these ideas from, and the answer is that so much imagination and fluff has been poured into this ship that people believe it all to be true when in reality there's nothing to back it up. You add in the creator, who keeps putting his foot in his mouth time, and time again, and the fandom only get's gas added to the train wreak that is Naruto.

The light novel wasn't about Naruto and Hinata spending time together on their perfect wedding day, from what I recall. It was their friends preparing for their perfect wedding day. Particularly getting them gifts cause apparently in Japan you are suppose to scramble around thinking up gifts that the last minute using government money.

 

Haven't I've been saying that this is about the fans inserting themselves into Naruto/Hinata's shoes, then it is about the story? Hinata barely has an outline of a personalty so guy can mold her into his perfect women, and they just ignore anything Naruto's character because it doesn't matter to them either other then an outline they insert themselves into. Vice versa for girls.

 

The problem is this topic is very strict surprisingly if you think about it, but can also be vague enough that people actually miss it. From a "writing standpoint" nH from how it is written, it can only be a "pairing the spare" couple because of how little they interact and how little development they actually get from each other interacting throughout the story. While from a "writing  perspective into the pairings potential" a story about the shy girl managing to get the class clown to notice her and they both fall in love is not a bad idea, especially with the beginning from the chunin exam arc, but nothing is done with it until they are forced together at the last minute.

Edited by Bail o' Lies, 03 March 2017 - 12:58 AM.

[James S Cassidy]

I don't think Saku-chan was attacking you personally James.

I think if you're sexist it depends on how you criticize Hinata. For example a lot of people protect Sakura from harassment because of her small boobs, and the same people bully Hinata for her big boobs.

 

I never called anyone in here sexist.

If you read my post I say that it's fine to criticize Hinata as a character as long as it's not going down the, "She's a terrible character because her boobs are big and her submissive personality makes her appealing to beta otaku." This mindset can reinforce attitudes that a woman is at fault for the actions of others regarding her appearance. That's my main gripe with Hinata bashing. As long as we aren't doing that, I say criticize her character all you want.

Then why bring it up at all? If no one here is being sexist nor you are calling anyone here sexist, then every single one of your post was unnecessary. Not one person here was bashing Hinata out of sexism, but rather bashing on Hinata because the character herself is a sexist representation. And, if you are saying what you are saying is true, then why take like 3 or 4 posts to wait to say "Not referring to you, but rather in general." That should have been thrown in somewhere on the second post...considering that I feel like even sneezing in a person's direction can be taken as sexist or whatever in this day and age, but that is a debate for the political thread and won't go into it any deeper than that.

It gets even more confusing with lines like this:

When Hinata's criticisms include references to her body as some sort of unfair tool which manipulated fans into making a choice over waifus or plot, it's sexist.

Perhaps "criticisms" is the wrong word to use here due to the fact it is mostly used as a word to demean, disprove, and judge as bad. Which is how I took it the wrong way. So this sentence is saying "Looking down on Hinata because of her body is sexist." However, as you said their no person here is doing that, I am thinking you mean the opposite. So probably a better word here needs to be used.

"Praise," maybe? Maybe even "assessment." This is why people say "positive criticism" so as to not confuse it with the real meaning of the word.

Now I was the first to bring up sexism, I admit, but like I said I was referring to the radical fans of her and not anyone in particular here. Mostly looking at how some of the so called pro-enders of today will look at Hinata as nothing more than a object. To them, sexism = favoritism.

I also find it a little weird that you focus more on the sexism comment than the other comment of the hypocritical Hinata bashing. So does that mean you agree with my assessment or do you feel something different?

I am curious on your opinion of that. Because honestly, as much as I hate the changes of every single character if this series now, I keep in the back of mind that all of this....is a direct result of the studios saying "We have to make Hinata important" whether this be through her bloodline or something else. Although they seem to fail miserably at it, it feels like this is their main goal the whole time which is why the other characters cannot be at fault for their characters being damaged. 

Can you really hate on a characters who was directly changed for the sake of another character on purpose? I think this is something most fans forget when criticizing the characters.

To any pro-enders I say with confidence: "Hinata ruined the Naruto series"

Edited by James S Cassidy, 03 March 2017 - 02:40 PM.

[sushi.]

It should be obvious when one says 'Hinata bashing is often sexist', it's meant in general. I shouldn't have to ask anyone not to misunderstand.

I didn't clearify it any more than that. Saying I'm not talking about people here would be wrong, because I don't know if the people I'm talking avout are here. But I doubt none of our 7000 members have done it at least once. I saw some posts long ago but don't remember any names, and pointing fingers is besides the point. Anyone who bashes Hinata in a sexist way will recognize themselves in my post, and those who don't can scroll down.

Even if I was targeting a member here, why did you feel like it was you James?

[Phantom_999]

You know guys, I really tried to understand what this topic is about yesterday. Like I truly wanted to push my feelings aside so that I could try and understand what people see in NH, so I went and watched the last 3 episodes of Naruto. Now these are supposed to be "pre-wedding day" episodes,and in all reality I wanted to see the happy little couple because I wanted to see what in the world SP was going to do with them, but guess what, they were no where to been seen!! I was honestly dissapointed, because I thought we were going to get to see Naruto and Hinata getting everything ready themselves. In my head I thought SP was going to use these episodes as an opportunity to build the bond between the engaged couple, but nope, I gave them wayyyy to much credit. Instead these episodes, which had their moments, are literally a bunch of gag jokes relating to Naruto's friends finding him and Hinata a wedding gift. Now while some of them were funny, particularly the one with Shikamaru and Temari, most were just bland, and out right horrible, AKA an episode where Neji's spirit is dragged in for the sake of laughs.

 

Now after I was done watching said material I still had nothing to change my opinion. There was no new material to support this ship, instead these episodes did nothing to help boost the NH realationship. All they showed is that Naruto's friends have no idea what this "couple" has in common, because all their gift ideas were orientated on what they personally liked, example, dumbbells from Lee, and a kunai from Tenten, or gifts they all felt married people needed, such as a romantic dinner, and a honeymoon. There were no " Hinata and Naruto love doing this because they both....." lines because they literally have nothing in common. 

 

All we have for development outside of the manga is The Last, and from those events we have, a relationship that went from awkward interactions, to pity, to marriage, and this all happen in a matter of days in "movie" time. That's it, and from a writing point, or any point for that matter, it's ridiculous that people support it. However with this evidence I saw where NH does win, and that's in it's ability to touch so many people in different ways. This ship was written so that literally anyone could plug themselves into each person. In my experience most NH fans that I encountered where men, and they put themselves in Naruto's shoes. They wanted Hinata because she's "perfect" waifu material. What little female NH shippers I encountered thought the pairing was cute, and that it was admirable that a shy girl could win the hero's heart.

 

Either way this ship is based, purely on shippers delusions. It's different for everyone, since canonly there are only a few panels and movie for NH development, so shippers just insert their feelings and impressions to fill in the gaps. They themselves fabricate moments, they see "emotions, bonds, and even love" when there is nothing to begin with. I had a guy tell me the other day that NH had a spiritual bond from the moment Hinata was introduced, and I was like, where do these people get these ideas from, and the answer is that so much imagination and fluff has been poured into this ship that people believe it all to be true when in reality there's nothing to back it up. You add in the creator, who keeps putting his foot in his mouth time, and time again, and the fandom only get's gas added to the train wreak that is Naruto.

 

Ah, I'm sorry that you had to experience that......

[Lid]

You know guys, I really tried to understand what this topic is about yesterday. Like I truly wanted to push my feelings aside so that I could try and understand what people see in NH, so I went and watched the last 3 episodes of Naruto. Now these are supposed to be "pre-wedding day" episodes,and in all reality I wanted to see the happy little couple because I wanted to see what in the world SP was going to do with them, but guess what, they were no where to been seen!! I was honestly dissapointed, because I thought we were going to get to see Naruto and Hinata getting everything ready themselves. In my head I thought SP was going to use these episodes as an opportunity to build the bond between the engaged couple, but nope, I gave them wayyyy to much credit. Instead these episodes, which had their moments, are literally a bunch of gag jokes relating to Naruto's friends finding him and Hinata a wedding gift. Now while some of them were funny, particularly the one with Shikamaru and Temari, most were just bland, and out right horrible, AKA an episode where Neji's spirit is dragged in for the sake of laughs.

 

Now after I was done watching said material I still had nothing to change my opinion. There was no new material to support this ship, instead these episodes did nothing to help boost the NH realationship. All they showed is that Naruto's friends have no idea what this "couple" has in common, because all their gift ideas were orientated on what they personally liked, example, dumbbells from Lee, and a kunai from Tenten, or gifts they all felt married people needed, such as a romantic dinner, and a honeymoon. There were no " Hinata and Naruto love doing this because they both....." lines because they literally have nothing in common. 

 

All we have for development outside of the manga is The Last, and from those events we have, a relationship that went from awkward interactions, to pity, to marriage, and this all happen in a matter of days in "movie" time. That's it, and from a writing point, or any point for that matter, it's ridiculous that people support it. However with this evidence I saw where NH does win, and that's in it's ability to touch so many people in different ways. This ship was written so that literally anyone could plug themselves into each person. In my experience most NH fans that I encountered where men, and they put themselves in Naruto's shoes. They wanted Hinata because she's "perfect" waifu material. What little female NH shippers I encountered thought the pairing was cute, and that it was admirable that a shy girl could win the hero's heart.

 

Either way this ship is based, purely on shippers delusions. It's different for everyone, since canonly there are only a few panels and movie for NH development, so shippers just insert their feelings and impressions to fill in the gaps. They themselves fabricate moments, they see "emotions, bonds, and even love" when there is nothing to begin with. I had a guy tell me the other day that NH had a spiritual bond from the moment Hinata was introduced, and I was like, where do these people get these ideas from, and the answer is that so much imagination and fluff has been poured into this ship that people believe it all to be true when in reality there's nothing to back it up. You add in the creator, who keeps putting his foot in his mouth time, and time again, and the fandom only get's gas added to the train wreak that is Naruto.

 

Fantastic post KonohaKitten.

 

Here's something I wrote for a thread about a year back or so and I think it's somewhat relevant here.

 

 

Upon looking back on the series, I noticed something about all of the NaruHina 'moments' from beginning to end. It's that they were all very grandiose and were set up to be epic.

 

The Chunin exam thing with Neji, Hinata saving Naruto during Pein, her holding Naruto's hand in the war arc. All these moments were during huge events, making the scope of NaruHina at the time much bigger.

 

I'm starting to think this is why Kishimoto (and the fans of that pairing) felt somewhat satisfied with what "development" the pair received.

 

My problem, and I think it's the same for many of us, is that while there were a bunch of grandiose NaruHina moments, there was never any simple dialogue sequences between the two.

 

It really goes back to the old saying of less is more. For example, if Kishimoto wanted some solid development, it should have been Hinata who spoke with Naruto after Jiraiya died. Have the two connect and speak with each other. Simple dialogue sequences like that could have gone such a long way.

 

I think this is why many of us NS people gravitated toward Naruto and Sakura. While NaruSaku had some big moments, (the part where he saved her from Gaara, for example,) there were also a lot of just simple times of them talking or being teammates.

 

Looking back, I think those simple moments of them eating at the ramen shop together produced a deeper looking connection than Hinata confessing to Naruto during a huge battle.

 

 

 

The reason I posted that in this thread is because it, in my view, shows the flaw in the writing around NaruHina. This was a pairing built on all of these types of major moments in the series, such as Hinata's confession during the Pein fight, but there's nothing in between them.

 

In my view, the appeal of NaruHina is that it's easy. It was a simple solution to "the hero needs a love interest." So, instead of having to develop an entire relationship over the course of a manga with multiple moments of dialogue and nuanced approaches, Kishi could simply insert a female into some of the intense sequences to make the relationship seem more real than it really was.

 

I've argued and have always maintained the point that I wouldn't have a problem with NaruHina if Hinata was actually a more developed character and had more interaction with Naruto. There's nothing wrong with having a more shy character get with the lead protagonist. But by taking the lazy way out, not having the proper development and just shoving Hinata in here and there, the entire thing feels superficial.

 

I also think many people have nailed the appeal of this type of writing to the readers in describing it as a sort of fairy tale story.

Edited by Lid, 04 March 2017 - 04:59 PM.

[NeonRanger]

We always address the flaws in NH and Hinata, but I feel like we should also address the flaws in NS and especially Sakura. We should ask ourselves what made NH more appealing than NS. Or why people like Hinata more than Sakura. We always list the shallow reasons on why someone would ship NH and SS (and even SNS), but there are people who genuinely find an appeal towards the ship that they couldn't find in NaruSaku.

 

NH and SS also call us problematic as well: they also either see NaruSaku fans as misogynistic men who believe that Naruto deserves Sakura as a reward after everything he's done, or women who fetishizes and self-insert themselves at the thought of a guy like Naruto willing to put her happiness and wellbeing over his own because he genuinely loves her. We know not all of us are like that. Every shipping fandom has their problematic shippers. Same with character favourites. Lumping the loud minority (and even majority) of shippers and character bias for the most shallow of reasons are are just one of the reasons why the Naruto fandom is known as being the most closed-minded fandom. Years before, it was some NaruSaku amv YouTuber that convinced me into acknowledging NaruSaku, without bashing SS or Sasuke to get her point across. The debates were tolerable back than. And yeah problems here and there, but I remember a time where NaruSaku experience a whole lot of growth with convincing shippers as well as newcomers. Nowadays, just try convine anyone the Sakura is still the heroine of the manga without being blocked or harassed. I still question at what point in time did people decided to close their ears instead of, at least!, acknowledging what we interpret from the manga. 

 

Anyway, there are genuine SasuSaku and NaruHina shippers, whether they make up the minority, majority, or whatever. There are NaruHina and SasuSalu shippers who are anti-ending (plot), but still continue to ship them because they found something appealing or like about that they couldn't see in NaruSaku. There are neutral, both anti and pro-ending fans, and anti-NaruSaku fans who do find a flaw within NaruSaku that preventing them being a pro-supporter (one of the many being Sakura herself). An example I can give are SNS fans: a lot of shippers can only ship and see SNS as the most logical ship in the manga, and they are not wrong. We can argue as much as we want about how Naruto cares for Sakura, but, canon-wise, if you ask him to take a bullet to save either Sasuke or Sakura, it's pretty obvious who he'd choose. Naruto went against his POAL in Sakura's face; how Sasuke became more important the POAL he had given towards Sakura. SNS are not wrong when they say that everyone ships SNS; so far you have both English and Japanese VA's, SP (fan-service), and Kishimoto himself. It is the largest paring in Naruto because of how emphasized it was. One of the reasons why SNS fans never cared for or acknowledge NaruSaku or NaruHina; they genuinely don't care which of the two became canon because they know, in canon, that both Sakura and Hinata are only second place in Naruto's eyes compared to Sasuke. This is before the ending. After they realize SS also became canon, The Last, and SNS pretty much replaced and NH now being shoved in their face, do they realize that NS would have been more credible. But before that, the only thing SNS cared more about was an open ending, and not being given a heterosexual romance at all. SNS shippers are also make a up part of the Sakura hate (NH, neutral fans, antis).  Canon-wise, Sakura had no major part within SNS, she was a legit third wheel, especially with Sasuke himself. They also have issues with her ignorance when it comes to SNS (her attempting to kill Sasuke even though Naruto cares about him). This is getting to long, so I will quickly finish...

 

The major issue is how the writing became flawed to where people couldn't keep an interest in overall characters or particular ships because for most fans, based on their expectations and interpretations, it was ruined or not what they expected. From a writing standpoint, I see NS being credible and logical, but at the same time, I can also see why one would ship NH find it appealing. 

 

Honestly, I feel like one should just avoid love triangles (rectangles) point blank. With Fairy Tail, the writing is bad, but the parings are clear, and still gain a large popularity. I'm mean, if you don't know what you're doing. 

 

Edit: forgot my point with SNS. There are genuine shippers like SNS, that find their ship more logical then other couples such as NaruSaku. SNS wouldn't have been as popular in a romantic aspect if Kishi made it clear that Naruto cares for Sakura or Hinata romantically. Kishi made it very clear out of both Sasuke and Sakura, who is the most important in Naruto's heart. Same with Sasuke when comes to Naruto and Sakura. Every ship outside of SNS is second place, no matter what. This is goes the same for NH and SS for their reasons on why they ship them. The writing never made anything crystal clear. We had to look for  NH, NS, and SS on a lot on vague statements. These vague confirmations is why the Naruto shipping base is so divided in the romantic aspect of the writing. 

Edited by NeonRanger, 04 March 2017 - 08:50 PM.

[ThroughWithLove]

We always address the flaws in NH and Hinata, but I feel like we should also address the flaws in NS and especially Sakura. We should ask ourselves what made NH more appealing than NS. Or why people like Hinata more than Sakura. We always list the shallow reasons on why someone would ship NH and SS (and even SNS), but there are people who genuinely find an appeal towards the ship that they couldn't find in NaruSaku.

 

 

Someone actually made a thread for that here, but I didn't see any instance of anyone actually listing a conceptual flaw with NS. Every flaw boiled down to flaws in the characters (which just about every agreed with). 

 

As for what made NH more appealing, that's what this thread is about, but I can't think of a single compelling storytelling premised reason for why NH is appealing, much less more appealing than NS. I think that SasuHIna supporter guy/gal did a good job summarizing the general NH fan justifications, but as discussed throughout the thread, they're all premised on headcanon (i.e. no one understands Naruto/Hinata better than Naruto/Hinata) or justifications that otherwise have nothing to do with storytelling (i.e. they're really cute together).

 

And don't get the wrong idea. I'm sure there are a lot of people who legitimately find NH more appealing than NS. Heck, I legitimately find finding Draco/Hermoine more appealing than Ron/Hermoine. But this thread is about what functions best from the standpoint of storytelling. And my preferred Harry Potter pairing comes up short from that standpoint.

 

NH and SS also call us problematic as well: they also either see NaruSaku fans as misogynistic men who believe that Naruto deserves Sakura as a reward after everything he's done, or women who fetishizes and self-insert themselves at the thought of a guy like Naruto willing to put her happiness and wellbeing over his own because he genuinely loves her. We know not all of us are like that. Every shipping fandom has their problematic shippers. Same with character favourites. Lumping the loud minority (and even majority) of shippers and character bias for the most shallow of reasons are are just one of the reasons why the Naruto fandom is known as being the most closed-minded fandom. Years before, it was some NaruSaku amv YouTuber that convinced me into acknowledging NaruSaku, without bashing SS or Sasuke to get her point across. The debates were tolerable back than. And yeah problems here and there, but I remember a time where NaruSaku experience a whole lot of growth with convincing shippers as well as newcomers. Nowadays, just try convine anyone the Sakura is still the heroine of the manga without being blocked or harassed. I still question at what point in time did people decided to close their ears instead of, at least!, acknowledging what we interpret from the manga. 

 

 

And my response to this misogynistic allegation would be that the story was about Naruto and that his wants/aspirations ought to have taken precedent over any other character's. If the story was about Hinata, then I would say that her wants/aspirations ought to have taken precedent over any other character's. When keeping in mind who the main character is, protestations of sexism are meaningless.

 

As to the main character deserving to have his wants/aspirations fulfilled as a 'reward', that doesn't necessarily have to happen.  Chekov's gun merely demands the author do something with what he bothered putting in the proverbial cooking pot. Since chapter 3, the author has gone out of his way to make Naruto's interest in Sakura more than a gag and an actual character motivation. In part 1, this is brought to its crescendo when he makes the famous POAL. If the authored bothered going through all of this, it needs to serve a purpose. Maybe that purpose is Naruto and Sakura getting together in the end. Or maybe that purpose is simply a tool to allow Naruto to further understand the importance of bonds (and thus ultimately give up on Sakura for the sake of her own happiness). Either way, there has to be some purpose or else you're just wasting the reader's time.

 

As to self-insert women who fetishize  weak-willed men doing whatever they want, that's a new one to me!    There could very well be women in this community who think like that. Heck, I'm confident that there are some crazies out there who may have preferred NS for nonsense reasons. But it's all besides the point as one can definitively demonstrate how NS makes sense from a storytelling standpoint whereas one cannot compellingly do so for NH. Don't believe me? Just watch Boruto. Just watch the current Naruto fillers. Take a good look at every single interaction between Naruto and Hinata and you'll see what I mean. Take a good look at every single interaction between Sasuke and Sakura and you'll see exactly what I mean. Unless you invent completely new characteristics, there's no chemistry in either pair.

 

You mention the act of lumping in the loud minority of NH fans with the majority. I disagree. As far as sexism accusations go, that might be the case. But as far as the general premise that NH fans cannot definitively demonstrate how NH makes sense from a storytelling standpoint, I say this about the vocal minority and the silent majority. This is not to insult them, however.  Different readers are welcome to have different tastes and interests. The only person I'm bashing here is the actual author.

 

 

 

Honestly, I feel like one should just avoid love triangles (rectangles) point blank. With Fairy Tail, the writing is bad, but the parings are clear, and still gain a large popularity. I'm mean, if you don't know what you're doing. 

 

I think love triangles can work when done with an actual purpose outside of simply keeping readers interested in an otherwise declining story. Here, I believe the love triangle dynamic ought to have been used as a tool for character development on all sides (especially Sakura's). Personally, I would have had Hinata killed off against Pain (perma-death). Afterwards, I would have had Naruto guilt-tripping himself about this for a number of chapters afterwards before finally finding his resolve.

 

At any rate, I'm not really a "shipper" in the conventional sense. When I come into a series, I tend to ship the story. Needless to say, my ship died in this series long before the ending.

Edited by ThroughWithLove, 04 March 2017 - 09:50 PM.

[gamma]

I saw the filler as well & lmao...

 

As I was watching it, I got increasingly bored so I started to skip around to find out where tf our main hero & heroine Naruto and his otaku hug pillow Hinata were. And they were essentially nowhere in sight. Which I think, only proved one thing to me personally: they're just so effin' boring together that they can't even pull a lax conversation with one another...

 

I had wanted them to have significant scenes with each other to see how they both brought out the other's character, mainly Hinata's. See how they made plans, chat about the clothing they'll be wearing, try on some funny clothes & tease one another about it perhaps(?), etc. just to showcase their "chemistry", what made it unique and to generally see how in love they were. SP had a nice opportunity to meddle with NaruHina deeper and to add some spice to their bland relationship, no matter how OOC it might have been because really, everyone feels a little OOC at this point.

[VoodooFX]

I saw the filler as well & lmao...

 

As I was watching it, I got increasingly bored so I started to skip around to find out where tf our main hero & heroine Naruto and his otaku hug pillow Hinata were. And they were essentially nowhere in sight. Which I think, only proved one thing to me personally: they're just so effin' boring together that they can't even pull a lax conversation with one another...

 

I had wanted them to have significant scenes with each other to see how they both brought out the other's character, mainly Hinata's. See how they made plans, chat about the clothing they'll be wearing, try on some funny clothes & tease one another about it perhaps(?), etc. just to showcase their "chemistry", what made it unique and to generally see how in love they were. SP had a nice opportunity to meddle with NaruHina deeper and to add some spice to their bland relationship, no matter how OOC it might have been because really, everyone feels a little OOC at this point.

 

I commend you and every other soul, who still has the stomach to watch this in animated form.

[Konohakitten]

 

Ah, I'm sorry that you had to experience that......

 

Well at least the animation was some what okay 

 

 

Fantastic post KonohaKitten.

 

Here's something I wrote for a thread about a year back or so and I think it's somewhat relevant here.

 

 

 

The reason I posted that in this thread is because it, in my view, shows the flaw in the writing around NaruHina. This was a pairing built on all of these types of major moments in the series, such as Hinata's confession during the Pein fight, but there's nothing in between them.

 

In my view, the appeal of NaruHina is that it's easy. It was a simple solution to "the hero needs a love interest." So, instead of having to develop an entire relationship over the course of a manga with multiple moments of dialogue and nuanced approaches, Kishi could simply insert a female into some of the intense sequences to make the relationship seem more real than it really was.

 

I've argued and have always maintained the point that I wouldn't have a problem with NaruHina if Hinata was actually a more developed character and had more interaction with Naruto. There's nothing wrong with having a more shy character get with the lead protagonist. But by taking the lazy way out, not having the proper development and just shoving Hinata in here and there, the entire thing feels superficial.

 

I also think many people have nailed the appeal of this type of writing to the readers in describing it as a sort of fairy tale story.

 

Thanks Lid, I think your responses from a year ago fits perfectly in here. I too agree that NH moments were, as you put it, "major moments in the series," however the rest of Naruto's bonding, via conversation and just over all spending time with the opposite sex,is with Sakura. This is were I find it amazing that most SS and NH fans are blind as to why NS shippers were upset in the end. NH is literally an arranged marriage, plain and simple. Their moments and movie were too little too late, and the relationship that had firm foundations, NS, was tossed out the window for a toxic ship instead. When we look at the Naruto pairing this way it's still mind boggling as to why fans are alright with the way things turned out. It seriously makes me think that most shippers have never been in a long term healthy relationship before.

 

 

I saw the filler as well & lmao...

 

As I was watching it, I got increasingly bored so I started to skip around to find out where tf our main hero & heroine Naruto and his otaku hug pillow Hinata were. And they were essentially nowhere in sight. Which I think, only proved one thing to me personally: they're just so effin' boring together that they can't even pull a lax conversation with one another...

 

I had wanted them to have significant scenes with each other to see how they both brought out the other's character, mainly Hinata's. See how they made plans, chat about the clothing they'll be wearing, try on some funny clothes & tease one another about it perhaps(?), etc. just to showcase their "chemistry", what made it unique and to generally see how in love they were. SP had a nice opportunity to meddle with NaruHina deeper and to add some spice to their bland relationship, no matter how OOC it might have been because really, everyone feels a little OOC at this point.

 

I felt the same way. It look's like all SP can do is provide retcon development, like flash backs and needless fluff in the past, but when it come's to scenes with Naruto and Hinata while they're officially a couple we get nothing.....because there is NOTHING!! I too wanted to see them interact. I really wanted to have something that I could watch and say, awe that was kinda of cute, but nope all I got was over the top animation that looked like it was drawn by kids most of the time 

Edited by Konohakitten, 07 March 2017 - 06:14 AM.