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#21 Tsuki Hoshino

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Posted 13 December 2017 - 02:15 AM

Agreed, Sasuke needs a mustache to go with that poncho.

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#22 Azor Ahai

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Posted 13 December 2017 - 02:33 AM

Agreed, Sasuke needs a mustache to go with that poncho.

 

Don't forget a monocle.

 

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Edited by Azor Ahai, 13 December 2017 - 02:36 AM.

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#23 Yyubie

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Posted 13 December 2017 - 02:39 AM

Someone here ever watch movie named Constantine??

There's a scene where Mammon walk across the plains passing a herd of cows , the cow fall , died and turn to dust one by one , the grass and trees wither and died when he pass them (everything close to him died instantly). I've been looking for that gif / image in google and want to post it here. THAT is the best thing i can describe about Sasuke.


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#24 Tsuki Hoshino

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Posted 13 December 2017 - 02:46 AM

Despite the fact that Constantine the movie was a major deviation from the comics, I really liked it.and yea that does sound like Sasuke.

Except no one around him dies in the traditional sense, they just lose all their senses and are reduced to a zombie like nitwit who can only think about him and his wants and needs rather then their own.

Edited by Tsuki Hoshino, 13 December 2017 - 02:46 AM.

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#25 Azor Ahai

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Posted 13 December 2017 - 02:46 AM

Someone here ever watch movie named Constantine??

There's a scene where Mammon walk across the plains passing a herd of cows , the cow fall , died and turn to dust one by one , the grass and trees wither and died when he pass them (everything close to him died instantly). I've been looking for that gif / image in google and want to post it here. THAT is the best thing i can describe about Sasuke.

 Don't think I've ever seen that movie :<


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#26 Derock

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Posted 13 December 2017 - 02:52 AM

Oh Sasuke... Masashi's somehow "favorite" character.

 

Let me back up and say that early Part 1, he was okay. Though he has that inferior AND superior complexes that make me want to facepalm. He was heading towards a villain path that would have make him at least an interesting upgrade for his character...

 

...but after the Pain Arc. Oh boy. After the his fight with Itachi, which reminded everyone that dragged on like almost over 10 chapters, I was hoping for some sort of balance. Hit the Land of Iron arc... holy crap, stuff were about to be interesting but then suddenly dropped. Routes changed which made Sasuke very-very wishy-washy. It got worse when he was reunited with Itachi against Kabuto. And then the damn power ups! If Naruto catched up, Sasuke has to add more to his arsenal. That was what I getting because somehow Masashi doesn't want Naruto to one up Sasuke despite the fact that the former is the titular character (that somehow til this day was heavily ignored). I also want to point out that not only he had to get more stuff but the entire clan as well. But that's another story that needs a heavy rant to discuss.


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#27 Tsuki Hoshino

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Posted 13 December 2017 - 03:24 AM

"Oh Naruto, the main character is from this new Clan I just introduced? Let's talk more about the Uchiha!!!!" :zaru:

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#28 Bryon_Konoha_Ninja

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Posted 13 December 2017 - 03:40 AM

Oh Sasuke... Masashi's somehow "favorite" character.

 

Let me back up and say that early Part 1, he was okay. Though he has that inferior AND superior complexes that make me want to facepalm. He was heading towards a villain path that would have make him at least an interesting upgrade for his character...

 

...but after the Pain Arc. Oh boy. After the his fight with Itachi, which reminded everyone that dragged on like almost over 10 chapters, I was hoping for some sort of balance. Hit the Land of Iron arc... holy crap, stuff were about to be interesting but then suddenly dropped. Routes changed which made Sasuke very-very wishy-washy. It got worse when he was reunited with Itachi against Kabuto. And then the damn power ups! If Naruto catched up, Sasuke has to add more to his arsenal. That was what I getting because somehow Masashi doesn't want Naruto to one up Sasuke despite the fact that the former is the titular character (that somehow til this day was heavily ignored). I also want to point out that not only he had to get more stuff but the entire clan as well. But that's another story that needs a heavy rant to discuss.

 

You sure nailed it a lot of how I feel, Derock. I mean, seriously, Sasuke's biggest weakness to me has always been his inferiority and superiority complexes, which prevented him from really getting stronger. Even after he "beat" Orochimaru, you could tell Sasuke seemed weaker, considering how he seemed to effortlessly handle Naruto, Sakura, Sai, and Tenzo/Yamato, but at the same time, Naruto was out of it too. And when he faces Deidara, we see his other weakness; his fear of death, which shows even as driven as he was to simply surpass Itachi that he was afraid to risk as much as he could to do it.

 

The power-ups thing also irked me too! At least in Dragon Ball Z, it made sense when we saw Vegeta eventually go Super Saiyan, since Future Trunks showed us the others could do it too, and not just Goku. Same with Vegeta getting Super Saiyan 2 in the Buu Saga, since it just showed even if he gave up on fighting, he still kept up his training to allow him to do it, so it made sense, but in Naruto, it never did.



#29 DrK

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Posted 13 December 2017 - 05:59 AM

The power-ups thing also irked me too! At least in Dragon Ball Z, it made sense when we saw Vegeta eventually go Super Saiyan, since Future Trunks showed us the others could do it too, and not just Goku. Same with Vegeta getting Super Saiyan 2 in the Buu Saga, since it just showed even if he gave up on fighting, he still kept up his training to allow him to do it, so it made sense, but in Naruto, it never did.

Yeah. Though I didn't like how the original SSJ form which was so badly needed at the time ended up being reduced to a toy for babies. And Sasuke was scared of dying because it would mean he could never be with his true love Naruto Karin Sakura. The canon ending makes this an obvious inference that can be drawn.


Edited by DrK, 13 December 2017 - 06:11 AM.


#30 Nostradamus

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Posted 13 December 2017 - 01:06 PM

Yeah. Though I didn't like how the original SSJ form which was so badly needed at the time ended up being reduced to a toy for babies. And Sasuke was scared of dying because it would mean he could never be with his true love Naruto Karin Sakura. The canon ending makes this an obvious inference that can be drawn.

Then you don't wanna hear me rant about SSJ Caulifla and Kale. :wallbash:


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#31 Azor Ahai

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Posted 13 December 2017 - 03:04 PM

The problem with Sasuke was its blandness and overall man child personality that bordered on the psychotic.


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#32 James S Cassidy

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Posted 13 December 2017 - 07:02 PM

 

You don't need to say you hate Sasuke as a character if you already hate how the Creator has always written him :excited: just saying. :P After all if you hate the writing for the character than you already hate the character, but you CAN hate the character though at least TOLERATE the writing for them

Well, this is where you are wrong and didn't think deeply on this oneor never listen to the podcasts.

I hate Sasuke as a character since the beginning because I hate his character trope. "I am an emo, introvert, who is so moody, but all the girls think I am cool even though I hate women." I don't like those character types because they are so cliche and stupid. Why do they always depict women just flocking to guys like this? Not just one or two women, but almost every single woman in the series. Why? He offers nothing, he doesn't give them attention, but some how every woman wants to bone him because "he looks cool?" I mean, come on, even if that were the case in the beginning it doesn't take THAT long for someone to change their mind about him when he shows even a more true to self version in front of them. As soon as you break the "fantasy" that they are, then that should be it. Sakura, as soon as she saw his real self, should have dropped him faster than a bag of potatoes down a staircase.

And this is when he is written correctly. When his character is actually in line with what you are going for and that what he is supposed to be to the story. The anti-thesis to the main character. The main character is an extreme extrovert who is loud and abnoxious at times, the rival is the opposite...a extreme introvert who is quiet, only uses word when ncessary, and lives as a loner with maybe only one focus in mind.

However, Kishimoto hasn't always written Sasuke correctly and this is where the "Sasuke is a plot convenience comes from."

Of course, Kishimoto himself even betrays his own writing he establishes, by having the introvert be open with other people, and estalbishing bonds with them and something that goes against the character trope because...we just can't have Sasuke going off on his own. Then you make all these plot points about him and estalbish a kind of change in him, but then never sticks to those changes when it matters the most.

Oh look Sasuke wants to destroy Konoha. He is almost there, he is at the city limits, he can blow it up right now if he wants to annnnnnnnnnd plot convenience he sees Itachi's left shoe running through the forest and decides to go after him instead. I mean, how many of you here hate the "Save Martha" scene from Batman v Superman saying how stupid of a plot point it is? (When if you really think about it is genius, but opinions aside). That is basically Sasuke in a nutshell. One little hint of Itachi and he starts to freak out. "Why did you say that name?"

And then the series has the gall to say "Only Naruto can truly change Sasuke's view" when up to this point Naruto failed to change Sasuke on multiple occasions and it was actually everyone else except Naruto who has changed his mind. Itachi, Orochimaru, the Hokage, and even Obito. Sasuke stopped trying to detsroy the village after talking with Itachi....not Naruto. How much different would it have been if Naruto came back from the war to see Sasuke standing over bodies and a destroyed Konoha with Naruto look on with horror? Wouldn't that make a real difference.

"Sasuke needs to be saved and redeemed." From what? He hasn't done anything according to the most of the fandom. How can he be redeemed when he has never done anything evil? And anything he did supposedly be "evil" with people either hand wave it or "It happened to Sakura and she is pathetic so it doesn't count." I love how some of the fanbase say that Sauske needs redemption because he is evil, but also say that Sasuke is not evil or never did any evil acts. Then it is not a redemption...that's more like Salvation.

 

So what is Sasuke? He is supposed to be the rival to Naruto, but in what way?

Is he Naruto's villain? No, because he is more like an opposition and Naruto never sees Sauske as a "bad guy." Sauske is not Madara.
Is he Naruto's anti-thesis? Not really because he doesn't challenge Naruto on that level. He doesn't prove how wrong Naruto's views are only that he questions why Naruto has such views.
Is he Naruto's darker half? Sort of, I mean we get that allusion to it by Naruto saying how they could have switched places, but while Sasuke did lose his family, he had so much more than Naruto ever had. Sasuke had a family at one point which is more than what Naruto could say, he was loved by the entire village, he was looked up to by the village, all the girls loved him and not one saw him as "the monster," and he had natural talent and was pratically given most of his hax powers by his bloodline since the beginning. Naruto got the short end of the stick on most of it. Sure he eventually got power boosts thanks to bloodlines and prophecies, but this came much later while Sasuke has been getting them since the beginning.

I don't know what Sasuke is anymore. I can't even call Sasuke Naruto's rival because Sasuke never really competed with Naruto. He always thought he was superior with no questions. Compare Sasuke with Vegeta and you can see a clear cut difference. He was more mad at Naruto for gaining powers he never thought he should have.

 


Edited by James S Cassidy, 13 December 2017 - 07:03 PM.

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#33 RulesofNature

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Posted 13 December 2017 - 09:01 PM

I think the problem isn't Sasuke. The problem is how the writing lost it's focus as time went on.

 

Part I of the manga was more or less tightly written, focusing mostly around Naruto. The series had a good grasp of itself and it's characters, with Sasuke acting as a foil to Naruto. But it starts to spread out a bit during part I. It stops just being about Naruto's quest to be the greatest ninja in the village, but also his quest to bring Sasuke back. Orochimaru wasn't THE villain of the series as the even more powerful threat of Akatsuki is teased. And then shortly after the timeskip we also began following Sasuke's actively seeking revenge.

 

One of the things I felt about the writing was the manga was made to keep going as long as possible. It couldn't just progress to it's logical conclusion, it had to set up more plot threads to follow. In addition, there was this sense that the manga was being written in service of the anime. You know, Kishi was introducing characters and stuff that weren't fleshed out in the manga itself but who could serve as the focus of a filler arc. Even the ending was crafted with the purpose of setting up Boruto.

 

Sasuke was originally introduced by editoral request for a rival character. It just leaves the impression that he wasn't supposed to be as important as he ended up being, but as time went on his prominence in the story rose. It was something that came to Kishi as the series went on, but he never had the best grasp of what the end game for Sasuke should be. Throw in stuff like "Itachi was a good guy all along. He massacred his clan, including helpless children, in order to protect the Konoha" later on to cash in on Itachi's popularity, and everything starts falling apart with Sasuke at the middle of it.


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#34 James S Cassidy

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Posted 13 December 2017 - 10:11 PM

I think the problem isn't Sasuke. The problem is how the writing lost it's focus as time went on.

I love your post and enjoyed the reading of it. I am cutting down to save space for this, but I have to ask, why does Sasuke get a pass or an excuse for his character due to Kishimoto lack of writing, but Sakura does not? At least this is logic I see among the communities.

Now we here on the Naruto fandom sometimes have this idealogy that these characters are real people. We think they move and breath on their own and have their own thoughts and treat them as though they are real people in this world. Nothing really wrong with this, but I find that the Naruto fandom in general can't really seem to decide whether or not to apply certain logics to certain areas and are purposely altering their applications of reality to whatever they want to justify or condemn certains actions of what Kishimoto does with his fictional character. Analyzer did this alot so you guys can look to her, but she is not  the only one. I actually do it to because to me these are like real people. We want them to be real people and in some way they are if they are a avatars to real life examples.

This has a purpose, but stick with me cause this might get long.

So we look at Sasuke as a character. Myself, I despise him. I hate Sasuke. I hate him as a character type and I hate how Sasuke abused basically a writing privledge to justify things that in reality make no sense, but in the Naruto world is supposed to because "The plot demanded it." (In example: Sasuke had ample chances to destroy Konoha while the man army is away and it seems in reality like a great tactical advantage given that he would face no opposition. However, he didn't go through with it despite actually having the chance because the plot demands that Naruto and Sasuke fight and it would make sense for Naruto to defend against Sasuke with going through with the destruction so we have this...weird plot device that seems extremely convenient and unrealistic outcome that occurs where Sasuke all of sudden says "I don't want to detroy Konoha" especially when he hears a story that might actually say that he is in the right to do so. Arguably, but this is for another debate.)

And I find this rather...confusing. Even among her on the NS fandom.

Let me break this down:

Naruto:
Now Naruto has changed quite a bit and we all have our viewpoints of it, but a general consensus her is that Kishimoto has destroyed Naruto as a character. He pandered to a pairing fanbase and caused massive plot holes, retcons, and the like just to have Naruto end up with a character who throughout most of the story never even had a glancing thought about. Unless she was standing right in front of him, she never crossed his mind.
Conclusion: We blamed this on Kishimoto lack of writing skills and possibly pressure editoral aspects that might have pushed something beyond what Kishimoto had intended. Although this is only a theory with plenty of evidence to support, but nothing is conclusive entirely.

Some excuses I hear in favor of Narutos support in change is that Naruto grows up and we never stay the same. Naruto is Hokage and has to focus on Hokage business which takes massive leader skills and we get told this explains his behavior. There are many excuses I hear, but one thing I see masively defended is that Naruto and Hinata were meant to bewith each other and that was intended since the beginning and that everything ELSE was avariable. So some have this idealogy that NH was the canon and iot was everything else that had to change and Kishimoto poorly scripted it because he is bad at writing romance.

Sasuke:
Sasuke is a horrible case of "not sure what to do with him" syndrome. Sasuke is just basically all over the place. First he is a renegade, then he is a villain, then he is a renegade again, then he is a terrorist, then he is a renegade, then he is a freedom fighter, and then he goes back to be a villain and finally ends up being a renegade and then reduced to "plot device." I always saw Sasuke a plot demands character. If the plot needs him to be a villain, all of a sudden he is a villain. If the plot needs him to be a good guy, he is a good guy. If the plot needs him to be a war monger, he becomes a war monger. Everything Sasuke becomes, dictates, thinks, or puts into action is because the plot needed a character to do this to further the plot. Now favoritism or no, everything just seemed to fall too easily in place for Sasuke didn't it? Whatever was needed, Sauske provided. Now going back to thinking these characters are real stems from we believe that these characters would make decisions that might even go against the plot. This creates I think great drama. Do you expect Sasuke to be evil or do expect him to be good? Sasuke then turns and says: "Nah, I am just going to kill the guilty and murder people who do wrong like ninja Punisher." So instead of following a set dynamic by plot standards, to make it seem like he is basically going against what is expected towards him. Imagine if Sasuke says "I don't want to destory Konoha because it is not the city that is the problem...it is its government. I want  to break that down and rebuild it to be better." So now Sasuke is in a grey area other than just being the typical villain or typical good guy. He is an anti-hero who uses evil methods to do good things.
Conclusion: Kishimoto failed to grasp this concept of grey areas because he as trying too hard to make symnpathetic villains rather than justifable anti-heroes. What is the bad guy was right? What if the person everyone says is the bad guy is actually the good guy the whole time? This is something you see in Borderlands video game with Handsome Jack vs the Vault Dwellers. Jack is actually the hero and it is everyone else who is the villain. This is further confirmed in Borderlands the Pre-sequel where Jack was the hero trying to save the planet and everyone treated him like kitten to the point that he realized that the vault hunters are the real villains. We play the bad guy in the game. We blindly follow certain people because they tell us to, but in the end they mercessly kills anyone who just so much as disagrees with them...like Jack did. Like, imagine if all of a sudden Kakashi just stabbed Naruto in the back literally and metaphorically because he claims that Naruto is corrupted and vile and trying to control the world....(I would argue Naruto is, but again this is for another debate.) Would you say that Kakashi is the good guy or bad guy? The answer? Depends on whose side you are on and this is something Kishimoto could have played with with Sasuke. He had a great opportunity to do this, but it all came down to "Naruto and Sasuke had to fight each other." So Sasuke's charater is forced to be something regardless if it is within character because he had to fight Naruto.

I think some of us might even agree...Sasuke was right.

The excuses against are the same as Naruto's. According to some, Sasuke was meant to be Naruto's rival and Sakura's lover...and it was Kishimoto's fault for again not being good enough to write romance correctly.

Now we get to Sakura...and all of a sudden it is a WHOLE new ball park.

Sakura:
Sakura is a horrible case of character development gone awry  because she ends doing a 360. Everything that she had done in the past 15 years and 693 chapters all get thrown down the drain because her character was pushed to be with Sasuke. I would dare say that Sakura was a thrown away character because Hinata was pushed to the front over character biased. So much more that we all know.
Conclusion: Kishimoto failed to grasp the concept of what a heroine is and failed to grasp the concept of character development and potential. This could all be a result of character and pairing favortism by staff and fanbase that lead to problems existing where she was pushed out and another female character was pushed in. This is probably the first time I have seen this happen in an manga story. I have never seen anything like this occur in a story. Not even Twilight, as bad as it is, ever just threw away a character because the fanbase wanted something different...and they did have a Team Edward vs Team Jacob pairing war. Imagine if at the final chapter of the Twilight Saga they just threw Edward away and had Jacob be the main squeeze. Though I have never read the story itself, I did read a synapsis of it to see what the story is about and not even Stephanie Meyer is that low-brow to just change an entire concept because people loved Jacob more than Edward.

 

Excuses? None. They hold Sakura to the highest degree of criticism and bashing. "Sakura is so useless. Sakura is such a kitten. Sakura is such a kittening twat. Sakurs should be named Suckera. She should have been killed. Sasuke should have stabbed her and went with Karin" and so on and so forth. Nope, Kishimoto didn't use bad writing here, he purposely made Sakura the worthless character that she is or at least...this is what people seem to put down.

This is especially true if you point out faults in Hinata.
"Hinata is uselsss" She is not useless. You're not just reading it correctly.
"Hinata is so weak" She is not weak. She can totally beat Sakura.
"Hinata is a simple minded character who doesn't care about anyone." She cares about Naruto. She cared about Naruto more than anyone even before he was famous.

"Naruto and HInata have no development together in the manga" Well, Kishimoto is bad at romance so you can't blame him for it.

So, why does Naruto, Sasuke, Hinata, and almost every single characater in this story can excuse for their behavior with chalking it up to "Kishimoto is a bad writer and bad at writing romance," but Sakura gets the full force of criticism of her character when she is just as much a product of the the same force that made the others. Why is that? Why does every other character get a pass, but Sakura?

I get told that I can't hate on Sasuke and Hinata because their flaws are because of bad writing. Well, Can't this also be applied to all the Sakura haters? "You can't hate on Sakura because her flaws are because of bad writing" I get told that my hate for Hinata is unjustified and that "It is pathetic to be triggered by a fictional character," but these same people who say this are the ones that constantly bash Sakura, wishing death upon her, and hate her to the very core of their being.

This is the biggest question I have for anyone and anything. Why is Sakura being treated the worst when she is just as much a product of bad writing as any of the other characters? In fact, I even propose constantly that the reason why Naruto, Sasuke, and Sakura suffered so much was because Hinata HAD to get center swage. Because Hinata had to be the heroine, Sakura was kicked out. Because Hinata had to be the focus, Sasuke was removed from the picture. Because Hinata had to get what she deserved, Naruto's character was low tier to Hinata's desires.

Everything that is wrong with this series can be explained just be admitting that "Hinata had to take the center stage on the biggest pedastal." Even now, with Boruto and the like, the entire point is to make Hinata look good even vicariously through her children. How many want to bet that Salad is going to take second teir to Brotuo every single time. Salad will never be equal or at anytime upstage Boruto in anyway. Boruto has to be more powerful, smarter, faster, and better. Even his eye ability will be greater than the Rinnegan and have so many powers that the Sharingan will lose all meaning.

All because "Hinata has to be the best no matter what the cost."

P.S. As long as people continue to hate on Sakura without remorse or reason beyond "I hate her," then I will forever hate Hinata because "She corrupted Naruto and the manga for her own selfish desires."


 


Edited by James S Cassidy, 13 December 2017 - 10:12 PM.

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#35 Tsuki Hoshino

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Posted 13 December 2017 - 10:55 PM

I personally don't see a problem with hating a fictional character. So long as it's based on sound evidential fact. "SAKURA IS SELFISH AND ABUSIVE." isn't a fact present in canon.

Sasuke being a kitten is. :zaru:

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#36 RulesofNature

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Posted 13 December 2017 - 11:06 PM

Naruto gets a pass because the manga wanted the audience to sympathize with him. People became emotionally invested in him and they wanted to see him succeed. Ditto with Hinata, who in part one could be summed up as the girl who is nice to Naruto and gets the ever-loving crap beat out of her by Neji. Sasuke gets a pass because people saw him as the cool rival character.

 

The emotions of the reader cloud their judgement and understanding of the story. It's how you end up with people idolizing characters like Travis Touchdown (No More Heroes) despite the fact that despite being a lightsaber-wielding assassin, Travis is a creepy otaku who enjoys killing, can be lead around by his Richard, and blows entire fortunes on worthless crap. People see Tekkadan (Gundam IBO) as these badass heroes who got screwed over by the writing, failing to grasp that their morality ended up being self-destructive and something that would be called out in pretty much any other Gundam series. It's why people will unironically quote Tyler Durden as life advice, or how Dune Messiah was controversial because it showed a darker side of Paul after people put him on a pedestal despite that darker side being fully present in Dune. Or you get the people who worship Big Boss both in and out of universe because of games like Snake Eater and Phantom Pain, never minding that he was the villain of the original games and rejects his beliefs before dying in 4.

 

It's easier to lead people through their heart than by their minds. People already had their impressions of the cast during Part 1, and they stuck to them. People hated Sakura early on and continued to do so, ignoring her growth and leveling up. People thought Hinata was the underdog who would prove herself just like Naruto, so they continue to believe she is OP PLZ NERF despite the mountain of evidence to the contrary. People don't want to admit the continued existence of the ninja system undermines Naruto's promises to reform it, instead they focus on the fact he has become Hokage. Doesn't matter that he's become another cog in this system and tells his son to endure the loneliness, he has the funny hat.


Edited by RulesofNature, 13 December 2017 - 11:10 PM.

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#37 Bryon_Konoha_Ninja

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Posted 13 December 2017 - 11:47 PM

Naruto gets a pass because the manga wanted the audience to sympathize with him. People became emotionally invested in him and they wanted to see him succeed. Ditto with Hinata, who in part one could be summed up as the girl who is nice to Naruto and gets the ever-loving crap beat out of her by Neji. Sasuke gets a pass because people saw him as the cool rival character.

 

The emotions of the reader cloud their judgement and understanding of the story. It's how you end up with people idolizing characters like Travis Touchdown (No More Heroes) despite the fact that despite being a lightsaber-wielding assassin, Travis is a creepy otaku who enjoys killing, can be lead around by his Richard, and blows entire fortunes on worthless crap. People see Tekkadan (Gundam IBO) as these badass heroes who got screwed over by the writing, failing to grasp that their morality ended up being self-destructive and something that would be called out in pretty much any other Gundam series. It's why people will unironically quote Tyler Durden as life advice, or how Dune Messiah was controversial because it showed a darker side of Paul after people put him on a pedestal despite that darker side being fully present in Dune. Or you get the people who worship Big Boss both in and out of universe because of games like Snake Eater and Phantom Pain, never minding that he was the villain of the original games and rejects his beliefs before dying in 4.

 

It's easier to lead people through their heart than by their minds. People already had their impressions of the cast during Part 1, and they stuck to them. People hated Sakura early on and continued to do so, ignoring her growth and leveling up. People thought Hinata was the underdog who would prove herself just like Naruto, so they continue to believe she is OP PLZ NERF despite the mountain of evidence to the contrary. People don't want to admit the continued existence of the ninja system undermines Naruto's promises to reform it, instead they focus on the fact he has become Hokage. Doesn't matter that he's become another cog in this system and tells his son to endure the loneliness, he has the funny hat.

 

Damn, dude, this is another great post!



#38 Phantom_999

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Posted 14 December 2017 - 12:32 AM

@James: Well I don't think deeply half the time, yes :smile: Not unless I want to.

 


I love your post and enjoyed the reading of it. I am cutting down to save space for this, but I have to ask, why does Sasuke get a pass or an excuse for his character due to Kishimoto lack of writing, but Sakura does not? At least this is logic I see among the communities.
 
Now we here on the Naruto fandom sometimes have this idealogy that these characters are real people. We think they move and breath on their own and have their own thoughts and treat them as though they are real people in this world. Nothing really wrong with this, but I find that the Naruto fandom in general can't really seem to decide whether or not to apply certain logics to certain areas and are purposely altering their applications of reality to whatever they want to justify or condemn certains actions of what Kishimoto does with his fictional character. Analyzer did this alot so you guys can look to her, but she is not  the only one. I actually do it to because to me these are like real people. We want them to be real people and in some way they are if they are a avatars to real life examples.
 
This has a purpose, but stick with me cause this might get long.
 
So we look at Sasuke as a character. Myself, I despise him. I hate Sasuke. I hate him as a character type and I hate how Sasuke abused basically a writing privledge to justify things that in reality make no sense, but in the Naruto world is supposed to because "The plot demanded it." (In example: Sasuke had ample chances to destroy Konoha while the man army is away and it seems in reality like a great tactical advantage given that he would face no opposition. However, he didn't go through with it despite actually having the chance because the plot demands that Naruto and Sasuke fight and it would make sense for Naruto to defend against Sasuke with going through with the destruction so we have this...weird plot device that seems extremely convenient and unrealistic outcome that occurs where Sasuke all of sudden says "I don't want to detroy Konoha" especially when he hears a story that might actually say that he is in the right to do so. Arguably, but this is for another debate.)
 
And I find this rather...confusing. Even among her on the NS fandom.
 
Let me break this down:
 
Naruto:
Now Naruto has changed quite a bit and we all have our viewpoints of it, but a general consensus her is that Kishimoto has destroyed Naruto as a character. He pandered to a pairing fanbase and caused massive plot holes, retcons, and the like just to have Naruto end up with a character who throughout most of the story never even had a glancing thought about. Unless she was standing right in front of him, she never crossed his mind.
Conclusion: We blamed this on Kishimoto lack of writing skills and possibly pressure editoral aspects that might have pushed something beyond what Kishimoto had intended. Although this is only a theory with plenty of evidence to support, but nothing is conclusive entirely.
 
Some excuses I hear in favor of Narutos support in change is that Naruto grows up and we never stay the same. Naruto is Hokage and has to focus on Hokage business which takes massive leader skills and we get told this explains his behavior. There are many excuses I hear, but one thing I see masively defended is that Naruto and Hinata were meant to bewith each other and that was intended since the beginning and that everything ELSE was avariable. So some have this idealogy that NH was the canon and iot was everything else that had to change and Kishimoto poorly scripted it because he is bad at writing romance.
 
Sasuke:
Sasuke is a horrible case of "not sure what to do with him" syndrome. Sasuke is just basically all over the place. First he is a renegade, then he is a villain, then he is a renegade again, then he is a terrorist, then he is a renegade, then he is a freedom fighter, and then he goes back to be a villain and finally ends up being a renegade and then reduced to "plot device." I always saw Sasuke a plot demands character. If the plot needs him to be a villain, all of a sudden he is a villain. If the plot needs him to be a good guy, he is a good guy. If the plot needs him to be a war monger, he becomes a war monger. Everything Sasuke becomes, dictates, thinks, or puts into action is because the plot needed a character to do this to further the plot. Now favoritism or no, everything just seemed to fall too easily in place for Sasuke didn't it? Whatever was needed, Sauske provided. Now going back to thinking these characters are real stems from we believe that these characters would make decisions that might even go against the plot. This creates I think great drama. Do you expect Sasuke to be evil or do expect him to be good? Sasuke then turns and says: "Nah, I am just going to kill the guilty and murder people who do wrong like ninja Punisher." So instead of following a set dynamic by plot standards, to make it seem like he is basically going against what is expected towards him. Imagine if Sasuke says "I don't want to destory Konoha because it is not the city that is the problem...it is its government. I want  to break that down and rebuild it to be better." So now Sasuke is in a grey area other than just being the typical villain or typical good guy. He is an anti-hero who uses evil methods to do good things.
Conclusion: Kishimoto failed to grasp this concept of grey areas because he as trying too hard to make symnpathetic villains rather than justifable anti-heroes. What is the bad guy was right? What if the person everyone says is the bad guy is actually the good guy the whole time? This is something you see in Borderlands video game with Handsome Jack vs the Vault Dwellers. Jack is actually the hero and it is everyone else who is the villain. This is further confirmed in Borderlands the Pre-sequel where Jack was the hero trying to save the planet and everyone treated him like kitten to the point that he realized that the vault hunters are the real villains. We play the bad guy in the game. We blindly follow certain people because they tell us to, but in the end they mercessly kills anyone who just so much as disagrees with them...like Jack did. Like, imagine if all of a sudden Kakashi just stabbed Naruto in the back literally and metaphorically because he claims that Naruto is corrupted and vile and trying to control the world....(I would argue Naruto is, but again this is for another debate.) Would you say that Kakashi is the good guy or bad guy? The answer? Depends on whose side you are on and this is something Kishimoto could have played with with Sasuke. He had a great opportunity to do this, but it all came down to "Naruto and Sasuke had to fight each other." So Sasuke's charater is forced to be something regardless if it is within character because he had to fight Naruto.
 
I think some of us might even agree...Sasuke was right.
 
The excuses against are the same as Naruto's. According to some, Sasuke was meant to be Naruto's rival and Sakura's lover...and it was Kishimoto's fault for again not being good enough to write romance correctly.
 
Now we get to Sakura...and all of a sudden it is a WHOLE new ball park.
 
Sakura:
Sakura is a horrible case of character development gone awry  because she ends doing a 360. Everything that she had done in the past 15 years and 693 chapters all get thrown down the drain because her character was pushed to be with Sasuke. I would dare say that Sakura was a thrown away character because Hinata was pushed to the front over character biased. So much more that we all know.
Conclusion: Kishimoto failed to grasp the concept of what a heroine is and failed to grasp the concept of character development and potential. This could all be a result of character and pairing favortism by staff and fanbase that lead to problems existing where she was pushed out and another female character was pushed in. This is probably the first time I have seen this happen in an manga story. I have never seen anything like this occur in a story. Not even Twilight, as bad as it is, ever just threw away a character because the fanbase wanted something different...and they did have a Team Edward vs Team Jacob pairing war. Imagine if at the final chapter of the Twilight Saga they just threw Edward away and had Jacob be the main squeeze. Though I have never read the story itself, I did read a synapsis of it to see what the story is about and not even Stephanie Meyer is that low-brow to just change an entire concept because people loved Jacob more than Edward.
 
Excuses? None. They hold Sakura to the highest degree of criticism and bashing. "Sakura is so useless. Sakura is such a kitten. Sakura is such a kittening twat. Sakurs should be named Suckera. She should have been killed. Sasuke should have stabbed her and went with Karin" and so on and so forth. Nope, Kishimoto didn't use bad writing here, he purposely made Sakura the worthless character that she is or at least...this is what people seem to put down.
 
This is especially true if you point out faults in Hinata.
"Hinata is uselsss" She is not useless. You're not just reading it correctly.
"Hinata is so weak" She is not weak. She can totally beat Sakura.
"Hinata is a simple minded character who doesn't care about anyone." She cares about Naruto. She cared about Naruto more than anyone even before he was famous.
"Naruto and HInata have no development together in the manga" Well, Kishimoto is bad at romance so you can't blame him for it.
 
So, why does Naruto, Sasuke, Hinata, and almost every single characater in this story can excuse for their behavior with chalking it up to "Kishimoto is a bad writer and bad at writing romance," but Sakura gets the full force of criticism of her character when she is just as much a product of the the same force that made the others. Why is that? Why does every other character get a pass, but Sakura?
 
I get told that I can't hate on Sasuke and Hinata because their flaws are because of bad writing. Well, Can't this also be applied to all the Sakura haters? "You can't hate on Sakura because her flaws are because of bad writing" I get told that my hate for Hinata is unjustified and that "It is pathetic to be triggered by a fictional character," but these same people who say this are the ones that constantly bash Sakura, wishing death upon her, and hate her to the very core of their being.
 
This is the biggest question I have for anyone and anything. Why is Sakura being treated the worst when she is just as much a product of bad writing as any of the other characters? In fact, I even propose constantly that the reason why Naruto, Sasuke, and Sakura suffered so much was because Hinata HAD to get center swage. Because Hinata had to be the heroine, Sakura was kicked out. Because Hinata had to be the focus, Sasuke was removed from the picture. Because Hinata had to get what she deserved, Naruto's character was low tier to Hinata's desires.
 
Everything that is wrong with this series can be explained just be admitting that "Hinata had to take the center stage on the biggest pedastal." Even now, with Boruto and the like, the entire point is to make Hinata look good even vicariously through her children. How many want to bet that Salad is going to take second teir to Brotuo every single time. Salad will never be equal or at anytime upstage Boruto in anyway. Boruto has to be more powerful, smarter, faster, and better. Even his eye ability will be greater than the Rinnegan and have so many powers that the Sharingan will lose all meaning.
 
All because "Hinata has to be the best no matter what the cost."
 
P.S. As long as people continue to hate on Sakura without remorse or reason beyond "I hate her," then I will forever hate Hinata because "She corrupted Naruto and the manga for her own selfish desires."
 
Actually that is something that I notice. characters of a fiction a lot of the time (more often than not actually) are not treated as individuals but as wish fulfillment and are seen as he audience WANTS to see. That is why there are so many double standards when it comes to characters in a fiction, ergo they blindly praise a character that they are completely enamored with on his/her good or admirable qualities and ignore their flaws whereas a character that they hate they blow their negative qualities out of proportion and feel there is nothing good to say about them. No-one is immune to this. It is just that some look at things more objectively than others, and so look at strengths AND flaws.
 
I'll do a personal analysis on some characters later to illustrate

Edited by Phantom_999, 14 December 2017 - 01:30 AM.

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#39 DrK

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Posted 14 December 2017 - 01:11 AM

ergo they blindly praise a character that they are completely enamored with on his/her good or admirable qualities and ignore their flaws

 

Very few people were like this about Sakura. After the ending, probably literally zero people are like this about Sakura. Because her admirable qualities were retconned and her flaws were brought back to the forefront.

 

So the manga was ruined because people are able to be blind to Hinata's flaws but not Sakura's flaws. Also because Kishimoto is a hack.


Edited by DrK, 14 December 2017 - 01:11 AM.


#40 Phantom_999

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Posted 14 December 2017 - 01:29 AM

Actually you can say ALL characters were subjected to that in "that movie" if not already by the manga's end since it all had to be about Hinata getting her p-kitten. :zaru:


Edited by Phantom_999, 14 December 2017 - 01:29 AM.

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