54175 replies to this topic

[Bail o' Lies]

Chi-Chi always been hated. The reason people don't hate Bulma is because most American know her from Z not Dragonball.

[Phantom_999]

Hmm, Interesting. Well then, with that in mind I suppose It might be time to take a new, fresh approach the the argument the pro-Hinata section throws out. Give me some time to think

Edited by Phantom_999, 29 January 2019 - 07:20 PM.

[KClaws_2]

I think the splits about the same. Unless things have changed, the last time I was into DBZ, people s*** on Chi-Chi a lot. She got a lot of crap for trying to keep Gohan away from the adventures and to keep him safe and people took the bits clearly meant for comedy seriously. Tsundere-esque characters are a bit more divisive here in the west than in Japan.

Chi-Chi is s*** on a lot by the fans. There's a youtube video titled "Chi-Chi doesn't care about Goku", showing the scene after Vegeta left Earth where Chi-Chi sprinted over Goku to hold Gohan. Uh, haven't you guys heard of Maternal Instinct? Plus, Goku was a grown man who CHOSE to get himself hurt. Gohan was maybe 6 years old at most at the time. Even accounting for how strong he became, every decent mother I know of would attend to their potentially injured children first. 

As for not letting Gohan be what he wanted to be...again, not getting the point of Gohan's character. Gohan would NEVER have become this badass Vegeta light if Chi-Chi demanded he train with Goku 6 days a week. They plainly show Gohan does not LIKE to fight. Yes, he had the potential to surpass his father up till Super, but he lacked his father's drive. 

I think that scene where Vegeta told Goku Sayajins are naturally attracted to fierce and strong-willed women was specifically written to shut those fans up. 

 

And you know how GokuXChi-Chi has affected DragonBall ever since it happened? As far as I can tell, not at all. Even with the anti-tsundere trend, it's still going strong with DBS Broly making a killing at the box office (at least compared to most anime films released in the US)

And Naru also is attacked by Love Hina fans. The series is still considered a classic. I don't think that would be the case if NO ONE liked her, because obviously some people do.

And these NH extremists like to claim that Naruto would have lost lots of money if Naruto ended up with Sakura. Then why wasn't it before that time? The anime and games had a lot of content that suggested NS prior to where we are now, and they were making money. As Namenesh had pointed out several times, the manga sales saw a steep decline AFTER Neji's death.

If the US was really the reason we got the ending we did, Sheishua messed up big time. Naruto is no more popular than most other typical anime released here, it's all a drop in the ocean. Had they went with NS, I'd imagine they would still have a fair share of the Western fanbase, plenty of the Asian fanbase and more than enough of their own fanbase.

 

In conclusion, shippping/endgame pairings have little to no impact on how a series performs. But a lot of terrible plot points surrounding the couples (character playing cupid, false love, etc) can.

[RulesofNature]

Umm, KClaws? Love Hina isn't viewed as a classic so much anymore. It's often attacked for it's misandry. Times have changed and the idea we're supposed to laugh at a man being abused by a bunch of women doesn't work as well as it used to.

[Phantom_999]

Agreed. Although, even with that in mind I wonder why a lot series are still so popular for having prominent misandry vibes in them. Like Anime fans may shout misandry or misogyny all they want in anime or other types of media but those series are still popular and sell well so I don't know. And to elaborate more on the comedy of Love Hina  and other like minded manga/anime series. The idea is that it is funny that a man is being beat up by a woman because a woman is not physically stronger than a man so the man is a pansy/wimp for taking physical abuse from a "delicate and soft woman". So that is actually insulting to both men and women. Men are not masculine and tough if they can't handle violence by a woman (not to mention you open a whole other can of worms if a man tries to retaliate or defend himself) and A woman is "weaker" than a man so that is she has power over him physically and is beating him up is not supposed to be taken seriously. there are other problems with this mind set that I don't feel like delving into at the moment but I'll get back to it later.

 

Back on point, the whole Sakura is abusive to Naruto and so she doesn't deserve him debacle is idiotic and hypocritical on the NH fans part because I bring up AGAIN, how Hinata once threw Boruto and the new (short haired jack-@$$) Naruto out of their home for arguing and disturbing the daughter when she is sick and Fans applauded and cheered when she did that saying that "Oh she is such a strong and no- nonsense type of woman!!!!" or How about the when the daughter knocked out her father when she was crying bloody murder on her brother for wrecking her teddy bear/whatever stuffed toy it was. Fans enjoy it when THEY do that but Sakura doing it apparently makes her a demoness from hell. Double standards much?

Edited by Phantom_999, 30 January 2019 - 07:39 PM.

[dl316bh]

The "misandry" talking point is new, but otherwise nothings changed. I've never been into Love Hina, but hanging around fandoms naturally saw it brought up and even over a decade ago, plenty of people would kitten about the slapstick humor and the guy getting nailed. I don't know about whether it's ever been considered a classic, though.

[DrK]

Chi-Chi is s*** on a lot by the fans. There's a youtube video titled "Chi-Chi doesn't care about Goku", showing the scene after Vegeta left Earth where Chi-Chi sprinted over Goku to hold Gohan. Uh, haven't you guys heard of Maternal Instinct? Plus, Goku was a grown man who CHOSE to get himself hurt. Gohan was maybe 6 years old at most at the time. Even accounting for how strong he became, every decent mother I know of would attend to their potentially injured children first. 

It feels like you're adding a ton of context to that scene which didn't really exist. Like if it had been the Cell Games it makes perfect sense that she would disregard Goku. But that happened in the Saiyan saga. There was none of that bitterness over "Gohan having to fight to save the world when that's Goku's job",yet. He had been dead and it was Piccolo who decided that Gohan should fight. And Gohan wasn't strong at all last time she saw him. You're meant to laugh at her behavior, not award her mom points. Toriyama drew her as looking almost psychotic in that scene rather than actually worried about Gohan (and Goku, who had done nothing to merit her disregard yet)

 

And it is precisely that which I dislike about her character. She became a punchline when she was a normal person in DB.

[dl316bh]

Wasn't that also the first time she saw him after he'd been missing for months because Piccolo basically kidnapped him for training? Or was it at a later point? I haven't seen the Saiyan Saga in about fifteen years. If so, it makes sense she'd go to Gohan first.

[James S Cassidy]

I am not a CC fan personally. But the reasons I don't care for her have little to do with the exaggerated violence/screaming. CC and Sakura have something in common in that the actually controversial things about them are overshadowed by people hating on a common anime trope played for humor.

 

Like you aren't going to find a lot of people on YouTube comments and the like saying: "I don't respect Sakura because she married a man who hurt her and who still doesn't care about her," yet there's plenty of "I hate Sakura because she's a dumb b*tch"

There is still the variable of
"I hate the fact that Sakura is obsessive, but don't want her to get over what makes her obsessive in the first place."

Translated:
"I hate the fact that she is obsessed over Sasuke, but don't want her to get over her love for Sasuke and move on to someone else...say Naruto."

[DrK]

Wasn't that also the first time she saw him after he'd been missing for months because Piccolo basically kidnapped him for training? Or was it at a later point? I haven't seen the Saiyan Saga in about fifteen years. If so, it makes sense she'd go to Gohan first.

I don't know if I can agree that the scene as presented "makes sense", but you are correct. Yet it wasn't a case of her checking on Gohan first. She doesn't go to Goku at all, because it's funnier that way, Chi Chi's maternality being used as a source of dark comedy. But dark comedy has the result of it being harder or even impossible to take the character seriously. In DB, she's a serious character... The grown-up version of her anyway.

[Phantom_999]

There is still the variable of
"I hate the fact that Sakura is obsessive, but don't want her to get over what makes her obsessive in the first place."

Translated:
"I hate the fact that she is obsessed over Sasuke, but don't want her to get over her love for Sasuke and move on to someone else...say Naruto."

 

Yup, this is the train of thought for these Sakura haters. "She is the useless, squeaky, obsessive fan girl of Sasuke that she was at the start of the series" and they were adamant about that view point and never let go of it until they were proven right. When Sakura shows signs of not being what they want her to be, develops her maturity level and grow closer to Naruto they are dumbfounded and scream their self righteous and single note views on her even louder because she MUST be that useless squeaky, obsessive fan girl of Sasuke. The reason being, Naruto must be with his "huge bon-bon goodies goddess Hinata Hyuga", or they are just sick of "idiot main character getting getting strong-willed tsundere girlfriend." 

 

Either way they did not change their views on Sakura and they hounded that view until they were proven right. Not to mention that apparently for this series the characters feelings and growth don't matter unless it suits their agenda. Sakura becomes strong and takes out an Akatsuki member (Albeit with some help), One shot's one of Pain's Centipede monster, tales out a legion of Ten Tails clones in one strike, and shows to be a top notch healer? All irrelevant, she is still a useless b***h. Hinata attempts to impress Naruto, only thinks about protecting Naruto, and is never even remotely a functional fighter unless Naruto is within viewing distance of her? "OMG she is so strong, so perfect, so selfless!!!! that is why she must be Naruto's WAIFU!!!!!!!!!" Naruto's entire story? Doesn't matter unless the mates with the "sexy delicious megami-sama" Hinata. Sasuke? As long as he gets that "hoe" Sakura Haruno out of the way for Naruto to get his "silver medal" Hinata, it is all whatever, you love him or you hate him.

 

Ultimately they wouldn't shut up about it either way, so why not go for the couple that actually has development as has been pushed for in the story, as you have said already? Why not not go for the couple that does not need a retcon movie that destroys the very canon story the series was built on because all the development that they would ever need was already given in the entire run of the series? I've already stated this before, the NH and SS marriages reflect what was always the horribly one sided affair and dynamic between the couples. Naruto barely acknowledges Hinata exists in his life and only gives her any thought if someone tells him to or she just so happens to be in sight. Whenever he talks to her, it is "just a matter of fact" in context of the situation they are in, or in a friendly, platonic manner that SO MANY Anti-NS debaters accuse him of being with Sakura (HA)  . Sasuke always ignored Sakura or degraded her self worth because she has nothing to do with his goals, and he doesn't even get why she had feelings for him in the first place. He outright said that to Naruto and Kakashi after he gave Sakura a particularly cruel illusion to put her out of consciousness. How could think that relationships like that are romantic or even functional after all that?

Edited by Phantom_999, 17 February 2019 - 03:37 AM.

[Derock]

 

Yup, this is the train of thought for these Sakura haters. "She is the useless, squeaky, obsessive fan girl of Sasuke that she was at the start of the series" and they were adamant about that view point and never let go of it until they were proven right. When Sakura shows signs of not being what they want her to be, develops her maturity level and grow closer to Naruto they are dumbfounded and scream their self righteous and single note views on her even louder because she MUST be that useless squeaky, obsessive fan girl of Sasuke. The reason being, Naruto must be with his "huge bon-bon goodies goddess Hinata Hyuga", or they are just sick of "idiot main character getting getting strong-willed tsundere girlfriend." 

 

Either way they did not change their views on Sakura and they hounded that view until they were proven right. Not to mention that apparently for this series the characters feelings and growth don't matter unless it suits their agenda. Sakura becomes strong and takes out an Akatsuki member (Albeit with some help), One shot's one of Pain's Centipede monster, tales out a legion of Ten Tails clones in one strike, and shows to be a top notch healer? All irrelevant, she is still a useless b***h. Hinata attempts to impress Naruto, only thinks about protecting Naruto, and is never even remotely a functional fighter unless Naruto is within viewing distance of her? "OMG she is so strong, so perfect, that is why she must be Naruto's WAIFU!!!!!!!!!" Naruto's entire story? Doesn't matter unless the mates with the "sexy delicious goddess" Hinata. Sasuke? As long as he gets that "hoe" Sakura Haruno out of the way for Naruto to get his "silver medal" Hinata, it is all whatever, you love him or you hate him.

 

Ultimately they wouldn't shut up about it either way, so why not go for the couple that actually has development as has been pushed for in the story, as you have said already? Why not not go for the couple that does not need a retcon movie that destroys the very canon story the series was built on because all the development that they would ever need was already given in the entire run of the series? I've already stated this before, the NH and SS marriages reflect what was always the one sided affair and dynamic between the couples. Naruto barely acknowledges Hinata exists in his life and only gives her any thought if someone tells him to or she just so happens to be in sight. Whenever he talks to her, it is "just a matter of fact" in context of the situation they are in, or in a friendly, platonic manner that SO MANY Anti-NS debaters accuse him of being with Sakura (HA)  . Sasuke always ignored Sakura or degraded her self worth because she has nothing to do with his goals, and he doesn't even get why she had feelings for him in the first place. He outright said that to Naruto and Kakashi after he have Sakura a particularly cruel illusion to put her out of consciousness. How could think that relationships like that are romantic or even functional after all that?

 

What's funny about the bolded because I think fans are still in the "fandom"-land when multi and non-canon shipping is involved. Don't why Sakura is considered a "hoe" when all of that stuff is NOT even canon. Just plain crack.

 

I don't know about you guys (I'm going OOC mod for a second), but now-at-days, I'm viewing Hinata as that the "somehow sidepiece/side hoe that became main piece" with some unnecessary help and in not in a good way. And the man (Naruto) is/was dead set in her grasp ala target to get what SHE wants, (and fellas, there's a common statement which is true but it is too raunchy here to type, us men CAN get stupid when sex is the main topic). If this girl's a real person, I'm ready to go Black Twitter (which I don't use) on her. I know that this is a totally different view because this is the West but the East does get some influences since everything, everyone and their mama's business is up on the internet. With social media and reality TV the norm today, as I said before the East can be influential which may cause the whole fiasco with this franchise in regards to shipping.  And I think those fans has those views in their mindset while posting.

[LuckyChi7]

The common misconception people have when they compare Naruto to Goku and Hinata to Chi-Chi in terms of romance and the canon moment in the series.  

 

Exhibit A  - Goku never really outright stated he had feelings  

 

Exhibit B  -  Naruto had feelings for Sakura since childhood 

 

Exihibit C - Chi-Chi had an attraction to Goku since childhood & was promised she'd be his wife  <- yes I know he thought a bride meant food, but that's what makes him our lovable protagonist. 

 

Exhibit D  -  Hinata had an  attraction to Naruto, and told Naruto how she felt in the Pain Arc  <- Issue here is Naruto forgot about till well you know.. 

 

 

 

Not mention this probably one of my favorite moments for Goku (outside of combat): 

 

 

 

 

Once again even Toriyama knows how to handle romance pretty well (you'd think Kishi would follow his guru's path guess he didn't) 

[catsi563]

In Defense of Kishimoto sesei he was following a fairly basic romantic formula for most anime

 

MC has crush which turns to love on MF

 

MF has unrequited crush on unobtainable lancer

moe side character has unrequited secret crush on MC

 

MC and MF grow closer over many chapters as MF finally realizes lancer is not to be and MC has always cared

moe SC confesses her love to MC and then sacrafices herself in some grand gesture dying or barely surviving and falling into the background to do some important work

MC and MF finally confess and get together at the end 

its formulaic but he was following it and doing it fairly well, as ive said elsehwere I think he just gave up somewhere along the way and let people take control from him 

[James S Cassidy]

Yup, this is the train of thought for these Sakura haters. "She is the useless, squeaky, obsessive fan girl of Sasuke that she was at the start of the series" and they were adamant about that view point and never let go of it until they were proven right. When Sakura shows signs of not being what they want her to be, develops her maturity level and grow closer to Naruto they are dumbfounded and scream their self righteous and single note views on her even louder because she MUST be that useless squeaky, obsessive fan girl of Sasuke. The reason being, Naruto must be with his "huge bon-bon goodies goddess Hinata Hyuga", or they are just sick of "idiot main character getting getting strong-willed tsundere girlfriend."

It is mind boggling that the very thing they hate about Sakura is only that way BECAUSE they desired her to be that way. That's like feeding someone tons and tons of cakes and candies just so you can purposely make fun of them for being fat.

Or even worse when some people purposely set me up for failure just so they can say how bad I am and how better they are in comparison.

 

Ultimately they wouldn't shut up about it either way, so why not go for the couple that actually has development as has been pushed for in the story, as you have said already? Why not not go for the couple that does not need a retcon movie that destroys the very canon story the series was built on because all the development that they would ever need was already given in the entire run of the series? I've already stated this before, the NH and SS marriages reflect what was always the one sided affair and dynamic between the couples. Naruto barely acknowledges Hinata exists in his life and only gives her any thought if someone tells him to or she just so happens to be in sight. Whenever he talks to her, it is "just a matter of fact" in context of the situation they are in, or in a friendly, platonic manner that SO MANY Anti-NS debaters accuse him of being with Sakura (HA)  . Sasuke always ignored Sakura or degraded her self worth because she has nothing to do with his goals, and he doesn't even get why she had feelings for him in the first place. He outright said that to Naruto and Kakashi after he have Sakura a particularly cruel illusion to put her out of consciousness. How could think that relationships like that are romantic or even functional after all that?

 

 

Whenever a company or media tries to "please the fans," they always end up in failure. When you do exactly what the fans demand you lose because some people will complain even if they get exactly what they wanted. Also, it is still a question I never quite get a good answer to. What was the point of Naruto the Last if NH already had enough support in the canon in the first place? They just can't answer this question which deep down they know that Naruto the Last and the Hinata worshiping really was baiting them to buy their crap. This is why NH has no real value to the point that even some NH fans don't want apart of it. The only way you can enjoy it is if you are so die-hard that this is all you think about.

It doesn't feel like a victory...it feels more like catering. You didn't earn it. Someone else gave it to you. This is why they pretend it is something it is not. This is why when the truth hits them they reject it entirely because they can't understand that they didn't earn that respect. People are just catering to you for your money.

As in the words of Pretty Woman
"Stores are never nice to people, they are nice to credit cards" and you see it on an everyday basis where people would never look at you twice, but as soon as they learn you have money or something of value that they want...all of a sudden they are super nice to you and want to suck on your feet. Heck, they believe Kishimoto really had an interest in NH which, if you really look at the interviews, shows that he didn't care for pairings at all. The only thing he was really adamant about is the dynamic relationship between Naruto and Sasuke.

As for the Anti-NSers, I always find it laughable when they pull the whole "Naruto and Sakura see each other as brother and sister or as teammates." So is that why Naruto asked Sakura on date...because he saw her as a sister.

Like these "reasons" are just downright insulting
"Naruto always loved Hinata. He just didn't know it yet."
"Naruto saw Sakura as a teammate and a sister."
"Naruto and Sakura are practically cousins and cousins should never date."

This reminds me of a discussion about Boruto and Salad. If Boruto is Naruto's kid would that make him the reincarnation of Asura? Would this make Salad the reincarnation of Indra? Does that mean that BorutoXSalad cannot happen cause they really would be technically brother and sister or is their something I am missing that somehow it doesn't apply to them?"

Someone once gave me the argument that "It makes sense that Naruto and Hinata got together because since Sakura has no clan traits, the goal is to make the strongest ninja of all time and mixing Uzumaki and Hyuga blood would achieve that."

OMG, this argument is just....where to begin? Okay, so first off....are you admitting that Naruto does not love Hinata truthfully and was just trying to find a means to create the strongest child? Does that mean that Naruto is just using Hinata as an experiment to cross breed to make the "perfect being?" Wow, I didn't know Naruto was a Nazi. Second, if this was the case, why didn't Sasuke try to procreate with Hinata instead? Kishimoto confirmed that if an Uchiha and a Hyuga crossbreed the child would have one byakugan and one Sharingan, so wouldn't Sasuke want to go for that as well?

Damn, this remaining fandom is just disgusting.

"[Shinachiku] NS kid would have no special abilities, so he would be a weak child ninja."

No BS this is an actual argument I got.

I nearly banged my head against the wall.
So we know that the original premise (before it was abandoned with prophecies and reincarnations) of Naruto was that people with no natural talent can succeed if they worked hard enough. Not only would this be totally emphasized with Shinachiku, but it put his son as the ultimate epitome of that premise. Shina would be so hard working that it would make Rock Lee look like a Tai-Bo video. (No offense to Rock Lee. He is my boy.)

But Shinachiku would have different talents. He could inherit his father's massive chakra reserve combined with his Mother's natural affinity for absolute chakra control. There would no jutsu outside of Kekkei Genkai that he could not master with a little hardwork.

Shinachiku would be like All-Might in a way in which he can master all-for-one so naturally. His natural talent is to be able to pick up anything without the use of copying techniques. He would be like Ikki Kurogane who doesn't have an overpowered Blazer, but uses their own opponents weakness against them.

Shinachiku would essentially be "Chivalry of a failed Ninja," which sounds pretty bad ass and FAR more entertaining idea than Boruto "I am so broken that the plot revolves around me" Uzumaki who is just handed everything on a silver platter because "He is the son of a Uzumaki and Hyuga."

Tell me that wouldn't be an awesome premise?
 

 

In Defense of Kishimoto sesei he was following a fairly basic romantic formula for most anime

 

MC has crush which turns to love on MF

 

MF has unrequited crush on unobtainable lancer

moe side character has unrequited secret crush on MC

 

MC and MF grow closer over many chapters as MF finally realizes lancer is not to be and MC has always cared

moe SC confesses her love to MC and then sacrafices herself in some grand gesture dying or barely surviving and falling into the background to do some important work

MC and MF finally confess and get together at the end 

its formulaic but he was following it and doing it fairly well, as ive said elsehwere I think he just gave up somewhere along the way and let people take control from him 

Which is a fine writing formula and easy to manage, but issues arrived when they tried to switch all of that from Sakura to Hinata. Many fans will say that he wanted to something different. He didn't. All they did was used the same formula, but tried to change the MF from one to the other.

It used to be that Sakura was the first girl Naruto knew and liked, but they tried to retcon it to Hinata was the first girl he met and liked and it makes no sense especially when you try to go back and read what is already there. It makes Naruto really look like a scumbag like he purposely ignored her.

Dragonball Super Broly movie is doing this now.
Since they retconed essentially Goku's origin story, it creates horrible retcons that kind of blow apart the already established canon tH``at Dragonball and Dragonball Z had

 

Edited by James S Cassidy, 31 January 2019 - 07:13 PM.

[Phantom_999]

The common misconception people have when they compare Naruto to Goku and Hinata to Chi-Chi in terms of romance and the canon moment in the series.  
 
Exhibit A  - Goku never really outright stated he had feelings  
 
Exhibit B  -  Naruto had feelings for Sakura since childhood 
 
Exihibit C - Chi-Chi had an attraction to Goku since childhood & was promised she'd be his wife  <- yes I know he thought a bride meant food, but that's what makes him our lovable protagonist. 
 
Exhibit D  -  Hinata had an  attraction to Naruto, and told Naruto how she felt in the Pain Arc  <- Issue here is Naruto forgot about till well you know.. 
 
 
 
Not mention this probably one of my favorite moments for Goku (outside of combat): 
 

 
 
 
Once again even Toriyama knows how to handle romance pretty well (you'd think Kishi would follow his guru's path guess he didn't) 

 
 
There is no real comparison between Hinata and Chi-Chi it is just the fact that the MC is getting together with a girl that was not the main heroine and the fact that Naruto is heavily inspired by Dragon Ball. but that is where the comparisons end truth be told, because Goku is the arch-typical "shonen chaste hero" that gave no thoughts to romance an only cared about training and getting stronger. He was so disinterested in it that he could get together with Launch off screen and no one would bat an eye because again Goku is chaste and a-romantic for the most part and he had no hints of sttraction to anyone. Naruto on the other hand always showed interest in Sakura and Sakura in turn was becoming becoming closer to Naruto and was showing all the typical traits and attitude of the shonen love interest (which again if it was Hinata, then maybe show that instead since Naruto does understand what he feels romantically) which is comforting him when he's down, patching him up when he's injured, and ESPECIALLY supporting his aspirations. Not to mention Sasuke is showing to not be right for her because he both ignores her on a regular basis and degrades her when he doesn't, so again Sakura is shown time and time again in the story that any romance with Sasuke would not be healthy or stable for her but here we are.
 

What's funny about the bolded because I think fans are still in the "fandom"-land when multi and non-canon shipping is involved. Don't why Sakura is considered a "hoe" when all of that stuff is NOT even canon. Just plain crack.
 
I don't know about you guys (I'm going OOC mod for a second), but now-at-days, I'm viewing Hinata as that the "somehow sidepiece/side hoe that became main piece" with some unnecessary help and in not in a good way. And the man (Naruto) is/was dead set in her grasp ala target to get what SHE wants, (and fellas, there's a common statement which is true but it is too raunchy here to type, us men CAN get stupid when sex is the main topic). If this girl's a real person, I'm ready to go Black Twitter (which I don't use) on her. I know that this is a totally different view because this is the West but the East does get some influences since everything, everyone and their mama's business is up on the internet. With social media and reality TV the norm today, as I said before the East can be influential which may cause the whole fiasco with this franchise in regards to shipping.  And I think those fans has those views in their mindset while posting.

 
Yeah I know I don't mean anything by that and neither do they. That term is just mindlessly used on Sakura to make Hinata look better and in the same vein, when fans compare Sakura to Karin that same term is used on Karin too so they just love using the term "hoe" at the drop of a hat. I'm just just being my satirical and sarcastic self. lol

Edited by Phantom_999, 14 June 2019 - 10:22 PM.

[Derock]

Whenever a company or media tries to "please the fans," they always end up in failure. When you do exactly what the fans demand you lose because some people will complain even if they get exactly what they wanted. Also, it is still a question I never quite get a good answer to. What was the point of Naruto the Last if NH already had enough support in the canon in the first place? They just can't answer this question which deep down they know that Naruto the Last and the Hinata worshiping really was baiting them to buy their crap. This is why NH has no real value to the point that even some NH fans don't want apart of it. The only way you can enjoy it is if you are so die-hard that this is all you think about.

It doesn't feel like a victory...it feels more like catering. You didn't earn it. Someone else gave it to you. This is why they pretend it is something it is not. This is why when the truth hits them they reject it entirely because they can't understand that they didn't earn that respect. People are just catering to you for your money.

 

Which is a fine writing formula and easy to manage, but issues arrived when they tried to switch all of that from Sakura to Hinata. Many fans will say that he wanted to something different. He didn't. All they did was used the same formula, but tried to change the MF from one to the other.

It used to be that Sakura was the first girl Naruto knew and liked, but they tried to retcon it to Hinata was the first girl he met and liked and it makes no sense especially when you try to go back and read what is already there. It makes Naruto really look like a scumbag like he purposely ignored her.

Dragonball Super Broly movie is doing this now.
Since they retconed essentially Goku's origin story, it creates horrible retcons that kind of blow apart the already established canon tH``at Dragonball and Dragonball Z had

 

 

First paragraph: Sadly I do agree with that statement. Not just happened in Naruto, but also any media franchise. I had seen this in Sonic the Hedgehog, especially with the recent games (exclude Mania). Recently, Soul Calibur VI is getting flack today with the recent balance patch and many players hated it because the team added more buffs to characters such as Seong Mina and Ivy (but they were understandable changes, especially for Mina because they want to fix her CLOSE RANGE abilities, not overall as her long-range attacks were already good) and many Siegfried and Nightmare players were extremely angry when they had certain tactics that can send opponents out of the ring due to a glitch/bug and the team caught it. I stated this earlier, its fine to accept some suggestions/ideas from fans but DON'T accept everything! Then, as you stated James, it becomes catering.

 

 

 

As in the words of Pretty Woman
"Stores are never nice to people, they are nice to credit cards" and you see it on an everyday basis where people would never look at you twice, but as soon as they learn you have money or something of value that they want...all of a sudden they are super nice to you and want to suck on your feet. Heck, they believe Kishimoto really had an interest in NH which, if you really look at the interviews, shows that he didn't care for pairings at all. The only thing he was really adamant about is the dynamic relationship between Naruto and Sasuke.
As for the Anti-NSers, I always find it laughable when they pull the whole "Naruto and Sakura see each other as brother and sister or as teammates." So is that why Naruto asked Sakura on date...because he saw her as a sister.

Like these "reasons" are just downright insulting
"Naruto always loved Hinata. He just didn't know it yet."
"Naruto saw Sakura as a teammate and a sister."
"Naruto and Sakura are practically cousins and cousins should never date."

This reminds me of a discussion about Boruto and Salad. If Boruto is Naruto's kid would that make him the reincarnation of Asura? Would this make Salad the reincarnation of Indra? Does that mean that BorutoXSalad cannot happen cause they really would be technically brother and sister or is their something I am missing that somehow it doesn't apply to them?"

Someone once gave me the argument that "It makes sense that Naruto and Hinata got together because since Sakura has no clan traits, the goal is to make the strongest ninja of all time and mixing Uzumaki and Hyuga blood would achieve that."

OMG, this argument is just....where to begin? Okay, so first off....are you admitting that Naruto does not love Hinata truthfully and was just trying to find a means to create the strongest child? Does that mean that Naruto is just using Hinata as an experiment to cross breed to make the "perfect being?" Wow, I didn't know Naruto was a Nazi. Second, if this was the case, why didn't Sasuke try to procreate with Hinata instead? Kishimoto confirmed that if an Uchiha and a Hyuga crossbreed the child would have one byakugan and one Sharingan, so wouldn't Sasuke want to go for that as well?

Damn, this remaining fandom is just disgusting.

 

Honestly, the whole Anti-NS community need to take SEVERAL seats. Most of the arguments are tiring and some doesn't make sense. Like the first one you stated, I wonder what is the person who said that smoking because that doesn't make any freaking sense in literature. Unless Naruto has a some sort of power to see who's his lover in the future stated somewhere, I would've end the conversation immediately.

 

The "Naruto and Sakura = siblings" statement is so outdated. I kept saying this in the past, unless one of the two said it EXACTLY to the other or to another person regarding that said person during a conversation (Perfect example was in Harry Potter in Book 7, he did stated he viewed Hermione like a sister. And people went up in arms about that), then the argument is moot. Remember the NS hug? Oh boy, the Antis were up in arms, saying its a platonic/sibling hug when the chapter first came out. Problem was, do we even do that to our siblings? HELL NO! Unless something incestuous going on in your family... Same thing with the cousins argument, which its not valid because if that was the case, Sakura's family would've taken care of Naruto back in the beginning of the series.

 

That bolded statement, wow. They really want a Mary-Sue/Gary-Stu character to dominate the franchise. I got nothing to say but shake my head in disappointment.

 

 

 

Dragonball Super Broly movie is doing this now.
Since they retconed essentially Goku's origin story, it creates horrible retcons that kind of blow apart the already established canon tH``at Dragonball and Dragonball Z had

 

Well, Dragonball is now in some sort of Western comicbook type and beyond canon now at days. Reason I said that because its not just Super you worried about changing stuff, you have Xenoverse games doing their own thing and then Dragon Ball Heroes has their media included in the franchise: manga, anime and all. Plus it takes place within Super as it focused on both Future Trunks and Mai.

[James S Cassidy]

That bolded statement, wow. They really want a Mary-Sue/Gary-Stu character to dominate the franchise. I got nothing to say but shake my head in disappointment.

Yeah I am not kidding.

 

 

Well, Dragonball is now in some sort of Western comicbook type and beyond canon now at days. Reason I said that because its not just Super you worried about changing stuff, you have Xenoverse games doing their own thing and then Dragon Ball Heroes has their media included in the franchise: manga, anime and all. Plus it takes place within Super as it focused on both Future Trunks and Mai.

 

Yeah. You start to realize they are actually turning Goku into Superman. I mean, they are almost identical.

Xenoverse....ugh. I am just so confused on canon I just don't know anymore. It used to be so simple Manga = canon Anime = non-canon based on canon events.

Now it is
Manga = Canon up to a point, then non-canon, then canon again, then somewhat canon, then retcon canon

Anime = Non-canon up to a point, then canon, then non-canon, then somewhat canon, then retcons even more
Games = Non-canon, but then adds a canon element that doesn't exist anywhere else

Movies = Non-canon, but then canon after a point, only to be slightly retconed in the anime.

[Phantom_999]

It is mind boggling that the very thing they hate about Sakura is only that way BECAUSE they desired her to be that way. That's like feeding someone tons and tons of cakes and candies just so you can purposely make fun of them for being fat.

Or even worse when some people purposely set me up for failure just so they can say how bad I am and how better they are in comparison.

 

 

Whenever a company or media tries to "please the fans," they always end up in failure. When you do exactly what the fans demand you lose because some people will complain even if they get exactly what they wanted. Also, it is still a question I never quite get a good answer to. What was the point of Naruto the Last if NH already had enough support in the canon in the first place? They just can't answer this question which deep down they know that Naruto the Last and the Hinata worshiping really was baiting them to buy their crap. This is why NH has no real value to the point that even some NH fans don't want apart of it. The only way you can enjoy it is if you are so die-hard that this is all you think about.

It doesn't feel like a victory...it feels more like catering. You didn't earn it. Someone else gave it to you. This is why they pretend it is something it is not. This is why when the truth hits them they reject it entirely because they can't understand that they didn't earn that respect. People are just catering to you for your money.

As in the words of Pretty Woman
"Stores are never nice to people, they are nice to credit cards" and you see it on an everyday basis where people would never look at you twice, but as soon as they learn you have money or something of value that they want...all of a sudden they are super nice to you and want to suck on your feet. Heck, they believe Kishimoto really had an interest in NH which, if you really look at the interviews, shows that he didn't care for pairings at all. The only thing he was really adamant about is the dynamic relationship between Naruto and Sasuke.

As for the Anti-NSers, I always find it laughable when they pull the whole "Naruto and Sakura see each other as brother and sister or as teammates." So is that why Naruto asked Sakura on date...because he saw her as a sister.

Like these "reasons" are just downright insulting
"Naruto always loved Hinata. He just didn't know it yet."
"Naruto saw Sakura as a teammate and a sister."
"Naruto and Sakura are practically cousins and cousins should never date."

This reminds me of a discussion about Boruto and Salad. If Boruto is Naruto's kid would that make him the reincarnation of Asura? Would this make Salad the reincarnation of Indra? Does that mean that BorutoXSalad cannot happen cause they really would be technically brother and sister or is their something I am missing that somehow it doesn't apply to them?"

Someone once gave me the argument that "It makes sense that Naruto and Hinata got together because since Sakura has no clan traits, the goal is to make the strongest ninja of all time and mixing Uzumaki and Hyuga blood would achieve that."

OMG, this argument is just....where to begin? Okay, so first off....are you admitting that Naruto does not love Hinata truthfully and was just trying to find a means to create the strongest child? Does that mean that Naruto is just using Hinata as an experiment to cross breed to make the "perfect being?" Wow, I didn't know Naruto was a Nazi. Second, if this was the case, why didn't Sasuke try to procreate with Hinata instead? Kishimoto confirmed that if an Uchiha and a Hyuga crossbreed the child would have one byakugan and one Sharingan, so wouldn't Sasuke want to go for that as well?

Damn, this remaining fandom is just disgusting.

"[Shinachiku] NS kid would have no special abilities, so he would be a weak child ninja."

No BS this is an actual argument I got.

I nearly banged my head against the wall.
So we know that the original premise (before it was abandoned with prophecies and reincarnations) of Naruto was that people with no natural talent can succeed if they worked hard enough. Not only would this be totally emphasized with Shinachiku, but it put his son as the ultimate epitome of that premise. Shina would be so hard working that it would make Rock Lee look like a Tai-Bo video. (No offense to Rock Lee. He is my boy.)

But Shinachiku would have different talents. He could inherit his father's massive chakra reserve combined with his Mother's natural affinity for absolute chakra control. There would no jutsu outside of Kekkei Genkai that he could not master with a little hardwork.

Shinachiku would be like All-Might in a way in which he can master all-for-one so naturally. His natural talent is to be able to pick up anything without the use of copying techniques. He would be like Ikki Kurogane who doesn't have an overpowered Blazer, but uses their own opponents weakness against them.

Shinachiku would essentially be "Chivalry of a failed Ninja," which sounds pretty bad ass and FAR more entertaining idea than Boruto "I am so broken that the plot revolves around me" Uzumaki who is just handed everything on a silver platter because "He is the son of a Uzumaki and Hyuga."

Tell me that wouldn't be an awesome premise?
 

 

Which is a fine writing formula and easy to manage, but issues arrived when they tried to switch all of that from Sakura to Hinata. Many fans will say that he wanted to something different. He didn't. All they did was used the same formula, but tried to change the MF from one to the other.

It used to be that Sakura was the first girl Naruto knew and liked, but they tried to retcon it to Hinata was the first girl he met and liked and it makes no sense especially when you try to go back and read what is already there. It makes Naruto really look like a scumbag like he purposely ignored her.

Dragonball Super Broly movie is doing this now.
Since they retconed essentially Goku's origin story, it creates horrible retcons that kind of blow apart the already established canon tH``at Dragonball and Dragonball Z had

 

 

      Okay they shot themselves in the foot there. So Naruto only saw Hinata as a breeding machine to give him strong children to be better than Sasuke's offspring? And here I thought it was because he was SO IN LOVE WITH HINATA WHEN HE FIRST MET HER but didn't realize it yet. So he is using her just as much as he was using Sakura,  or *GASPS* EVEN MORE SO.¯\_(ツ)_/¯  

Edited by Phantom_999, 31 January 2019 - 11:45 PM.

[DrK]

I like the "story wise", because it's obviously much better "story wise" to abandon the 2nd or 3rd most significant narrative thread than it is to make a child more or less capable than they are genetically dispositioned to be.