211 replies to this topic

[ThroughWithLove]

I recently read this part of the manga again and I never really understood just how badly this section was written until the recent circus show in the debate thread (this thread is not a debate thread by the way). I won't address any attempts at revisionist history in this thread either. Just a heads up.    Lets review just why this is so bad chapter by chapter.

 

Chapter 457:

 

Admittedly, it starts off promising. In a nutshell, Sai has been contemplating Naruto's recent actions. He took a savage beating from Karui and it reminds him of a prior conversation he had with our loudmouthed knuckleheaded hero. With but a single glance, he realizes Naruto likes Sakura. A fact which Naruto confirms with the embarrassed look on his face. We learn just why Naruto is always smiling in her direction. This then prompts Sai to ask if Naruto has told her how he feels. To which Naruto answers, his back turned, that he could not due to not having kept his promise to her.

 

This is surprisingly good writing because it lets the reader know that that promise Naruto made over 200 chapters ago still weighs on his mind and was not something the author just tossed in there for no real reason; that combined with the way he smiles at Sakura all the time, he made the promise because of his love for her. Let that sink in: Naruto promised Sakura he would bring back the person she was in love despite his love for her. 

 

Recalling the beating Naruto just took, Sai decides that he's not just going to sit around and do nothing; he's going to take action.

 

 

He decides to visit Sakura for some reason only to leave off with an ominous "Sakura, I need to talk to you."

 

 

Chapter 458:

 

 

ada

 

 

 

Again, we have ourselves some surprisingly good writing. For the longest time, this side of Naruto's character was something that was merely alluded to us. The bench scene, the hospital scene with Tsunade, the fight with Gaara. These are all prime examples of Naruto truly and deeply caring about Sakura and Sai, a man whose personal arc has been about  learning and understanding human emotions, is able to brings it all to the forefront. What's more, we see Naruto's smile on full parade. As Sai as told us and Naruto has confirmed, it's his love for Sakura that compels him to make that face. With Sai finally piecing everything together and putting it all on the table, we get the sense that the author is preparing to really get the heart of Naruto's character.

 

 

Sai proceeds to really lay the down the hammer.

 

 

 

And there we have it. Sasuke may cause Naruto pain, but so does Sakura. Because of Naruto's love for her, he is determined to shoulder that pain, all that while giving a smile which we finally understand the true meaning to. Sakura, knowing her teammate better than anyone, sees the truth in Sai's words and finds herself at a heartshaking realization.

 

And so the chapter ends and we have the potential for some well needed character development from both Naruto and Sakura lying around the corner. Ideas that have been hinted at or glanced upon finally seem to be making their way to forefront. So how could this possibly turn out being one of the worst written sections of the entire 700 manga?

 

 

CHAPTER 459

 

 

 

 

 

And there we have it folks. The first real sign that things are about to go south. For some strange reason, Shizune makes the following idiotic observation. Naruto's not doing it because he promised Sakura? He wants to save Sasuke himself too? Well gee Shizune, what gave that away? Was it the part of the previous chapter where Sai says "Sasuke causes Naruto pain?" At no point in the previous chapter is any notion of Naruto NOT equally wanting to save Sasuke for himself even alluded to. Sasuke causes Naruto pain and Sai is the very first person to bring attention to this, so why is this piece of dialogue from Shizune even here? I have a theory about this, but I'll get back to it later. For now, lets just make note of the fact that Shizune redundantly calls attention to this as its really going to show you just how asinine later parts of this section of the manga truly are.

 

 

Yet another odd piece of dialogue here. Are Sai and Shizune taking stupid pills all of the sudden? Everyone relies on Naruto too much? No Sai, that was not your point. That was NEVER your point. Your conversation with Sakura in the previous chapter was about Sasuke and Sakura. You said THEY caused Naruto pain. You mentioned NOBODY else. Otherwise, why even bother confronting just Sakura in this chapter? Pay close attention to Sai's sudden goal-post-shifting as this is NOT the last time he does this.

 

 

There he goes again, acting like he came there to say that everyone relies on Naruto too much. This is not the same Sai from the previous chapter. It's as if someone decided to completely rewrite his reasons for starting this conversation in the first place.

 

 

 

 

 

 

So Shikamaru and most of the rookie 9 decide it's high time to kill Sasuke. They take it upon themselves to do it. Shikamaru comes to ask for Sakura's blessing as well as insist that he's going to go through with it either way. He also wants to tell Naruto, but Sakura insist she will tell him instead. This has good and bad points to it:

 

Good: It ups the tension and makes Sakura relevant. She hasn't been relevant to the story in nearly 200 chapters at this point, so her being at the middle and forefront in potentially being faced with killing Sasuke as well as being forced to respond to these newfound revevalations about Naruto's feelings is great. The sheer potential of this happening anyway.

 

Bad: Sakura thinking she has caused Naruto the most pain. This is not true and she knows it's not. All Sai told her was that both she and Sasuke cause him pain. Now this may not seem like a big deal at first, but it's paving the way for the stupidity that comes in 469 and 470.

 

CHAPTER 467

 

 

Traveling at the speed of plot, Sakura begins heading to the Land of Iron. Notwithstanding the overly convenient timing, we clearly see that Sakura has something on her mind. As if whatever she's about to do is serious and well thought out. Knowing him better than anyone else, she knows just what needs to be said to her longest and most faithful friend, right?

 

 

 

CHAPTER 468

 

 

And just like that, within the span of one chapter, she's right where she needs to be at the right and exact time. Wonder what she has to say. Find out next time on DRAAAGON BALL Z!!!

 

 

CHAPTER 469

 

 

Naruto is blushing! Yamato is shocked (hopefully, the readers are too distracted by the weird face to remember what he said in chapter 297).

 

 

And just like that, it immediately falls apart. This page has ZERO ZERO ZERO payoff for anyone who has been paying attention. We know the rookie 9 (or most of them) plan to kill Sakura and we know Sakura knows this. We've seen no catharsis, no grand revelation, nothing from Sakura that would lead her to say any of this. And so right off the bat, it's obvious the author plans to headfake the readers in some fashion. Naruto nonetheless blushes for a total of . . .

 

 

 

 

One page before common sense kicks in. Again, Sakura just blurts obviously false nonsense. Nothing about her sounds sincere. And her, the smart one and Naruto's closest companion, actually believes that Naruto is going to buy any of this. Like Sai and Shizune, it seems Sakura also gets a prescription for stupid pills in this arc.

 

And yet again, Yamato reacts in a fashion that screams of begging readers to forget what he said in chapter 297.

 

 

 

Sick and tired of the continuous BS, Naruto finally decides to call Sakura out on it. But maybe . . . just maybe, things aren't as they seem. Maybe Naruto is under the effects of a genjutsu. Maybe Sakura is under the effects of a genjutsu. Surely she would not lie about her feelings to someone who she has just been told loves her to the point of pain. That would be stupid and despicable. What's more, it would in no way absolve Naruto of the pain he's going to feel when he finds out Sasuke has been killed.

 

 

CHAPTER 470

 

 

 

 

 

Sakura flat out denies lying about her feelings and even gets visibly angry about it. This is something I've always found curious. Why is she getting angry if everything she is saying is a lie? It almost makes her sound sincere, despite all of the stupidity that preceded this. Almost. We still have the fact that Sakura has been told that Sasuke causes Naruto pain, so he'd clearly continue pursuing Sasuke regardless of his promise to her were she really paying any attention to Sai or Shizune's words. So what part of Sakura honestly thought this whole thing would not blow up in her face? 

 

 

Disregard the stupid justifications for Sasuke's asinine selfish criminal behavior and the continuing trend to always excuse Sasuke's behavior no matter what. Pay close attention to the dialogue on the bottom left panel. Naruto tells Sakura "It doesn't have anything to do with my promise to you." Wait, what? So in addition to Sai, Shizune and Sakura, Naruto is also now taking stupid pills (and notably and ironically lying to himself). Damn right it has to do with your promise to Sakura, which is why you brought it up when Sai asked you if you've told Sakura how you feel about her. What is going on here? Sai, Sakura and now Naruto. Within mere chapters of each other , their character motivations and personalities are actively being rewritten. What gets said in a few chapters earlier is flipped on its head a few chapters later. What the hell, Kishi?

 

 

Chapter 473

 

 

 

My reaction is the same as Naruto's, but obviously for different reasons.

 

Chapter 474

 

 

 

 

 

And now we reach what is arguably the dumbest part in this entire merry go round of stupidity. In reality, Sakura was supposed to tell Naruto that the other leaf ninjas have decided upon themselves to kill his precious Sasuke. Pay extra close attention as we learn Sakura's motivation in confessing to Naruto.

 

 

 

So she knew how Naruto would react, but decided to tell him anyway for . . . reasons? What the hell does he telling Naruto she loves him accomplish if she knows it won't accomplish anything. It is a complete and total waste of time. If she wants to kill Sasuke, then have her go kill Sasuke. Going and confessing to Naruto accomplishes absolutely nothing besides facilitating pointless drama. Put those plot speed boots and Sasuke detecting powers to good use and head directly for Sasuke. By killing him yourself, Naruto is no longer burden by his promise and your objectives are accomplished. So what the hell? Why didn't Sakura do this? She thinks Naruto is going to hate her forever anyway, right?

 

 

 

So what does the confession accomplish besides wasting our time?

 

Then there's this gem below:

 

 

Once again, Sai backpedals on us. First he wants to let Sakura know that she and Sasuke cause Naruto pain. Then he wants to let her know that everyone relies a bit too much on Naruto. Now he's been reduced to a screw up who should have kept his d_mn mouth shut so he implicitly apologizes talking nonsense to Sakura and setting her on this path in the first place. Way to go Sai. In just a few chapters, you've gone from a catalyst for some serious character development for Naruto and Sakura to a worthless buffoon who is only good for backpedaling exposition.

 

CONCLUSION

 

I won't cover the remainder of the arc other than to say that this whole false confession goes nowhere.  Naruto and Sakura's highlighted behavior throughout these chapters and pages I've posted are never referenced again. For the remainder of the manga, it's as if none of it ever happened. And it may as well not have happened since there was no need for Sakura to confess here as a means of fulfulling her objectives. We could've skipped straight to her pursuing Sasuke and Naruto finding out as a result of Sai coming to warn him or something.

 

But I suspect there's a reason things were written in this fashion. Remember earlier when I mentioned having a theory about Shizune's idiotic observation despite there being nothing in Sai's comments to suggest otherwise? I think chapter 457 and 458 pissed off A LOT of the usual suspects (i.e. the ones Kishimoto apparently takes the time to watch their videos). And so Shizune's comment was a way of appeasing the parts of the peanut gallery who refuse to read even on a third grade level (NO NO NO, Naruto wants to save Sasuke for himself as well!) . It's possible that 457 and 458 were initially going to pave the way for something else. Perhaps something along these lines:

 

 

But that's not what we got. What we got was the heroine playing with Naruto's feelings despite knowing full well it wouldn't accomplish anything (thus legitimizing most of the complaints towards her character), the hero and heroine behaving in the dumbest and most inconsistent fashion we had ever seen up until that point (it gets topped during chapters 484 - 487) and a complete and utter waste of time that screams of pointless drama. A premonition of things to come for the following story arc no doubt.

Edited by ThroughWithLove, 29 September 2017 - 11:57 PM.

[NarutoUzumaki01]

Well, I would understand, if there was no confession at all or it ended up resolving Naruto's feeling in any way, but Kishimoto just badly needed Sakura's character to have another dive in popularity, so he did this scene. As far as writing something more complicating that two people fighting each other with magic bs, Kishimoto always failed. In first part of Naruto and 2nd part till Itachi's death, plot was handled by his editor, that's why after Pain's arc many people noticed how plot, characters and story was all over the place. 

[BlackShirtGuy]

Inb4 Analyzer vandalize this post /Sarcasm

Seriously this "arc" was the most poorly executed excuse of pointless drama I've seen, you hit pretty much every point in this.
What's the point of telling Naruto that if Sakura KNOWS he would react like that?
What's the point of deciding between everyone to kill Sasuke if you are gonna let Sakura go alone and practically commit suicide(I thought she was suppoused to be the "SMART" one of team 7)?
What's the point of even TALKING to Naruto at all? , by now, everyone pretty much knows how much he's obsessed with Sasuke, that would only create more trouble since they would have to defeat him AND Sasuke to boot.
Why don't just lie to Naruto about Sasuke's whereabouts if you are gonna lie to him anyways? That way he won't intervene, yeah Sasuke is an Uchiha but I'm pretty sure Sakura, Lee,Kiba and Sai can take Sasuke on easily.
What's the point of referencing the STUPID GODDAMN PROMISE THAT NEVER WAS RESOLVED if you are gonna have the MAIN FLIPPING CHARACTER says that "This was never about the promise"? essentially saying I only made that promise to have you stop cryiing, there were nothing more than empty words.

"I hate people who lie to themselves" - Short Haired Jackass, AKA:Boruto's Dad , AKA: 7th Hokage,

[TouKen4Life3g]

I ranted this in the chat room. Its really something that I still cant believe it happened.

Edited by TouKen4Life3g, 30 September 2017 - 02:18 AM.

[NarutoUzumaki01]

I ranted this in the chat room. Its really something that I still cant believe it happened.

Chat room?

[Yyubie]

The most thing i hatted from this arc is Sakura become frail girl , it's the beginning of her regressing back to her 12 years old pathetic fan girl. Unable to kill Sasuke , no no she can't even fight him. When they reunited at Orochimaru base during the tenchi bridge arc Sakura ready to punch and send him fly :

I mean just look at her expression and determination , i think this is her at her peak , a TRUE strong willed heroine. She no longer become weak and frail whenever Sasuke around. No hesitation. But then after this they never meet again until the land of iron and then she become like this :

Okay she is a little bit hesitant , but this surely will close the deal and become the last prove. He tried to kill her , and on top of that hes lying and attempt to kill her from her back. So surely after this there will be no longer doubt or hesitation. But STILLLL :

I was like WHHHHHYYYYY????? I F-ing hate the land of iron arc. It's a joke ...

 

Edit : I mean AT LEAST FIGHT!!! , no wonder Sasuke always called her useless , BECAUSE OF THIS!! because Sakura never fight or do anything except cry in front of him. She can at least fight and show him that shes a grown up girl no longer useless or weak. This is sad ... whenever Sasuke insult her she just accept and cry or look pathetic .... at least to say something "NO I'M NO LONGER THE KUNOICHI YOU ONCE KNEW" or something like that , Why when Naruto or Sai insult you even thought it was a joke you can punch of them BUT WHEN SASUKE SERIOUSLY INSULT AND DEGRADE YOU , YOU JUST CRY AND ACCEPT???

 

Man now i'm releasing my frustration about this ..../sigh.

Edited by Yyubie, 30 September 2017 - 02:33 AM.

[NarutoUzumaki01]

The most thing i hatted from this arc is Sakura become frail girl , it's the beginning of her regressing back to her 12 years old pathetic fan girl. Unable to kill Sasuke , no no she can't even fight him. When they reunited at Orochimaru base during the tenchi bridge arc Sakura ready to punch and send him fly :

I mean just look at her expression and determination , i think this is her at her peak , a TRUE strong willed heroine. She no longer become weak and frail whenever Sasuke around. No hesitation. But then after this they never meet again until the land of iron and then she become like this :

Okay she is a little bit hesitant , but this surely will close the deal and become the last prove. He tried to kill her , and on top of that hes lying and attempt to kill her from her back. So surely after this there will be no longer doubt or hesitation. But STILLLL :

I was like WHHHHHYYYYY????? I F-ing hate the land of iron arc. It's a joke ...
 
Edit : I mean AT LEAST FIGHT!!! , no wonder Sasuke always called her useless , BECAUSE OF THIS!! because Sakura never fight or do anything except cry in front of him. She can at least fight and show him that shes a grown up girl no longer useless or weak. This is sad ... whenever Sasuke insult her she just accept and cry or look pathetic .... at least to say something "NO I'M NO LONGER THE KUNOICHI YOU ONCE KNEW" or something like that , Why when Naruto or Sai insult you even thought it was a joke you can punch of them BUT WHEN SASUKE SERIOUSLY INSULT AND DEGRADE YOU , YOU JUST CRY AND ACCEPT???
 
Man now i'm releasing my frustration about this ..../sigh.

Consistent writing,

It's

[Derock]

You know what's even funny? When CyberConnect2 did the arc for Ultimate Ninja Storm 3 (was it 3, I can't remember), Sakura actually fought Sasuke (2 fights, second fight with Kakashi) and Masashi actually praised them for making it even better than his manga version.

[hinataiscreepy]

There was a whole color spread that hinted at some kind of confrontation between Sakura and Karui. Covers and color spreads are usually hints of things to come.  Despite being on that cover , the cloud ninjas ended up having no real consequences or roles to the arc. Moreover, Rock Lee and Co DID NOTHING except talking and sleeping. Characters introduced in a story arc that end up doing nothing are red flags of  bad writing.   This is where I felt the story was taking a turn for the worse by the sheer bad writing with no flow or logic filled with character regression.

Edited by hinataiscreepy, 30 September 2017 - 05:32 AM.

[TouKen4Life3g]

About Shizune's line, it remind me of 614. Not essentially due to a line, rather how it segues to the next chapter. Naruto looks pissed and ready for payback. Then, 615 regressed that and have Naruto in panic state. What happened to badass Naruto?

[NarutoUzumaki01]

About Shizune's line, it remind me of 614. Not essentially due to a line, rather how it segues to the next chapter. Naruto looks pissed and ready for payback. Then, 615 regressed that and have Naruto in panic state. What happened to badass Naruto?

That Naruto died in fight with Pain.

[Illnevergiveup3]

Masashi is a pussy. That's all there is to it.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

Masashi is a pussy. That's all there is to it.

 

I hear that. And not to mention in the confession scene, he also makes Kakashi come off like a hypocrite since he doesn't WANT to believe the truth about Itachi, even when back in Part 1 when he told Naruto to see underneath the underneath, I.E. to question things. But when it comes to something like that, he refuses to do it, or even to let Naruto at times be his own kind of ninja.

[Illnevergiveup3]

 

I hear that. And not to mention in the confession scene, he also makes Kakashi come off like a hypocrite since he doesn't WANT to believe the truth about Itachi, even when back in Part 1 when he told Naruto to see underneath the underneath, I.E. to question things. But when it comes to something like that, he refuses to do it, or even to let Naruto at times be his own kind of ninja.

 

I also always wondered why in God's creation would Sai turn around tell Naruto that Sakura-Chan is going to go and kill Sasuke because she loves him so much. Where did he even retrieve that information from? Like ThroughWithLove pointed out, the basis of the whole Land of Iron Arc started with Sai realizing that Naruto loves her so much to the point of willingly putting himself through pain for her and letting her know about Naruto loving her and her causing him pain along with Sasuke. How Sai all of sudden changed to people depending on Naruto too much and her going to kill Sasuke because she loves him so much and wants to stop him from sinking lower when it was clear that she was going to kill him to relieve Naruto's burden and because she was willing to put Naruto first boggles my mind. Kishimoto is a pussy point, blank, period. Letting others dictate the direction of his story.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

 

I also always wondered why in God's creation would Sai turn around tell Naruto that Sakura-Chan is going to go and kill Sasuke because she loves him so much. Where did he even retrieve that information from? Like ThroughWithLove pointed out, the basis of the whole Land of Iron Arc started with Sai realizing that Naruto loves her so much to the point of willingly putting himself through pain for her and letting her know about Naruto loving her and her causing him pain along with Sasuke. How Sai all of sudden changed to people depending on Naruto too much and her going to kill Sasuke because she loves him so much and wants to stop him from sinking lower when it was clear that she was going to kill him to relieve Naruto's burden and because she was willing to put Naruto first boggles my mind. Kishimoto is a pussy point, blank, period. Letting others dictate the direction of his story.

 

I imagine Sai thought of that from what Naruto said, even if Naruto couldn't see how at that point Sakura's feelings for Sasuke had changed in many ways. But it just shows how inconsistent from week to week Kishimoto began to seriously get as Naruto dragged on.

[rikakim94]

Naruto and sakuras obsession towards sasuke is what really killed the ship. Why can't both realize that sasuke is a not a good friend he tried to kill people, Treated his teammates like crap and etc. Not all action that your friend do is forgivable.

 

Also why didn't kakashi try to stop sakura from going on a suicide mission? Thats his student that he trained and known as a kid. Same goes for naruto and sakuras violent bickering after the confession why didnt he try to stop that before it got out of hand?

 

He is such a terrible mentor. 

Edited by rikakim94, 30 September 2017 - 04:41 PM.

[hinataiscreepy]

Naruto and sakuras obsession towards sasuke is what really killed the ship. Why can't both realize that sasuke is a not a good friend he tried to kill people, Treated his teammates like crap and etc. Not all action that your friend do is forgivable.

 

Also why didn't kakashi try to stop sakura from going on a suicide mission? Thats his student that he trained and known as a kid. Same goes for naruto and sakuras violent bickering after the confession why didnt he try to stop that before it got out of hand?

 

He is such a terrible mentor. 

 

Unfortunately, i got a good friend who thinks this is true love and friendship.

 

He doesn't realize that in real life there is a LINE you don't cross with your friends and relatives.

[Lid]

CONCLUSION

 

I won't cover the remainder of the arc other than to say that this whole false confession goes nowhere.  Naruto and Sakura's highlighted behavior throughout these chapters and pages I've posted are never referenced again. For the remainder of the manga, it's as if none of it ever happened. And it may as well not have happened since there was no need for Sakura to confess here as a means of fulfulling her objectives. We could've skipped straight to her pursuing Sasuke and Naruto finding out as a result of Sai coming to warn him or something.

 

The underline point is the biggest thing here. Not only was the whole confession and to a larger extent both characters feelings poorly shown by the writer, but on top of that, this was NEVER resolved! Would it really have been too much for Naruto and Sakura to at least have a conversation about what was discussed and their feelings in a single chapter?

[NarutoUzumaki01]

 

Unfortunately, i got a good friend who thinks this is true love and friendship.

 it means that they will be your friend even after murder attemps made by you on them 

[Qia]

What I'm curious about, and will always be curious about is: 

1. Sakura's thoughts during the matter. We got to see into Naruto's and Kiba's, but not really what she was thinking. In fact, all we really got was other's opinions about the whole thing. 

2. How she brought it up to Naruto, to begin with. Like...did she just say it as soon as he got down? It may not be significant but....I've always thought that if she was trying to trick him it would have been better to take him aside first? 

Edited by Qia, 30 September 2017 - 10:35 PM.