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From a writing standpoint, what exactly is the appeal of Naruto and Hinata?


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#1 ThroughWithLove

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Posted 24 February 2017 - 09:43 PM

I just don't understand it. I seriously don't. Even before the ending, I've always maintained that there is zero chemistry between these two characters and that any romantic/married interaction between them would either be OOC or simply add nothing to the story. Now seeing that we have the ending and the following installment (Boruto), it would seem that my initial assessments were on point. In every scene Naruto and Hinata are in together, their relationship is referred to as being "perfect." Characters are made to tell us that they are "perfect together." We are never shown 'why' they work so well together. They simply do and we are encouraged to blindly accept it. Even worse, I can't help but get the feeling that the Boruto writers are aware of this, which is why Naruto and Hinata's interactions with one another are kept to an absolute minimum (there's likely a similar justification for keeping Sasuke and Sakura apart so much in Boruto). And it makes perfect sense. Hinata is a flat character. She brings nothing to the table. Take away her love for Naruto and what do you have exactly? 

 

I'm reminded of the classic Disney movies (i.e. Cinderalla) where the lead character is in love with the prince/princess at first sight, knows little-to-nothing about said prince/princess and the marries said prince/princess at the end of the movie and lives "happily ever after." The movies rightfully end at these characters living "happily ever after" because any story afterwards is going to be dull and uninteresting without creating/inventing new characteristics for both the prince and princess characters to have. Or even worse, something like this would be the writer's logical conclusion: 

 

Now yes, I understand most fans' justification for preferring Naruto and Hinata together. Generally, it's a matter of "I would choose Hinata", "I hate Sakura" or anything along the lines of inserting oneself into Naruto's position, but that's not what a reader should do. Naruto wasn't designed to be a self-insert character along the lines of Kirito from Sword Art Online, but a character  (who though relatable) had his own wishes/desires from the getgo. From a writing standpoint, I just don't see any reason for him to give up on pursuing Sakura without the proper character development that would be needed to get him to make that kind of decision.

 

But this thread isn't a "Why NaruSaku should have happened" thread. It's a "what's the appeal of NaruHina from a writing standpoint" thread. And frankly, I don't see any. The characters don't play off each other as is the case with Naruto and Sakura (although that could've been changed had we gotten sufficient character development on Hinata's part) and Naruto just isn't allowed to be "Naruto" when Hinata is around. Whereas with Sakura, Naruto being Naruto is a source of endless gags and character development, Naruto cannot be Naruto around Hinata without deflating the entire scene they are in and Naruto's antics flying over her head. Brilliant case in point:

 

tumblr_neaafoy8tC1taq4j8o1_500.jpg

 

Which version would make a more interesting short story? Conflict is a good thing.  :wink:

 

As a result, the writers have no desire to showcase how "great" Naruto and HInata's marriage is (with good reason) and instead inadverdently take it to its logical conclusion. A husband who is never at home and hides from his wife and children. In any other story, tendencies like these would be interpreted as Naruto being unhappy with his marriage and possibly having an affair with someone at his office.  Things we know Naruto would never consider doing, but nonetheless things the writers have allowed as possibly interpretations all for the sake of pairing him together with Hinata without bothering to evolve her character beyond "Naruto-kun." 

 

*sigh*


Edited by ThroughWithLove, 24 February 2017 - 10:00 PM.

Posted Image

 

Behold! Akame ga Kill's True Canon Pairing!


#2 sushi.

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Posted 24 February 2017 - 10:04 PM

That comic is wrong. Tsunderes are gentle with the one they love, and it was spesified in the manga that Sakura was gentle with Naruto. Antis think Sakura is an angry shouting maschine, too bad for them. Makes me wonder do they watch anime at all because Sakura is one of the gentler tsunderes, but none of the others get bashed for being it.

 

:zaru:

 

-- As for your question, idk. Maybe it's that Hinata is that stereotypical pixie submissive girl. Or they just want to appeal to the west.


Edited by sushi., 24 February 2017 - 10:05 PM.

ナルサク


#3 Illnevergiveup3

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Posted 24 February 2017 - 10:12 PM

I just don't understand how one can write about Naruto and Hinata being together and not get sick to their stomach and just start throwing their furniture out the window.


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#4 ThroughWithLove

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Posted 24 February 2017 - 10:15 PM

That comic is wrong. Tsunderes are gentle with the one they love, and it was spesified in the manga that Sakura was gentle with Naruto. Antis think Sakura is an angry shouting maschine, too bad for them. Makes me wonder do they watch anime at all because Sakura is one of the gentler tsunderes, but none of the others get bashed for being it.

 

:zaru:

 

-- As for your question, idk. Maybe it's that Hinata is that stereotypical pixie submissive girl. Or they just want to appeal to the west.

 

Sakura is gentle with Naruto. Sometimes literally. Sometimes figuratively. Sometimes figuratively in the sense of tough love . . . the likes of which Naruto deep down understands, appreciates and even intentionally prods as far as my head-canon is concerned.  :P


Edited by ThroughWithLove, 24 February 2017 - 10:16 PM.

Posted Image

 

Behold! Akame ga Kill's True Canon Pairing!


#5 tricksie

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Posted 24 February 2017 - 10:28 PM

Good topic. And one I think about as an NS writer too. Why the appeal for NH?

 

I mean, I get it with SS — he's the super-tough, orphan prodigy and Sakura is his opposite as the scrappy girl who pulls herself up using her own strength. It's Zuko and Katara (and a million other pairings).

 

But NH? Without radically changing Hinata, it's just a flimsy fairytale romance. She wins the hero that she's too shy to speak to just by virtue of her goodness. She does nothing to act, to change and become his equal. Instead, he takes notice of her. The romance is strictly one-sided.

 

For writers (and readers) I think the decision to focus on NH is based in their personal preference rather than the existence of a compelling story or great chemistry between the two characters. NH could be the straight-up fairy tale (hero picks the shy girl, against all odds), it could be that they identify with Naruto as a child-like hero going for the blemish-free princess, or it could be that they identify with the super-shy girl who gets noticed by the cool boy.  

 

For me, to make NH a more interesting story, then Hinata would have to change. She would have to grow into someone worthy of being the main hero's counterpart, emotionally develop past her self-doubt to be a confident person, grow beyond her civilian duties to her family to become a powerful shinobi in her own right, and actively move toward seizing that love offered to her. And at the point that all these happen, it's clear that she's worthy to stand next to Naruto because she has finally become...Sakura. :love:



#6 Phantom_999

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Posted 24 February 2017 - 10:35 PM

I just don't understand it. I seriously don't. Even before the ending, I've always maintained that there is zero chemistry between these two characters and that any romantic/married interaction between them would either be OOC or simply add nothing to the story. Now seeing that we have the ending and the following installment (Boruto), it would seem that my initial assessments were on point. In every scene Naruto and Hinata are in together, their relationship is referred to as being "perfect." Characters are made to tell us that they are "perfect together." We are never shown 'why' they work so well together. They simply do and we are encouraged to blindly accept it. Even worse, I can't help but get the feeling that the Boruto writers are aware of this, which is why Naruto and Hinata's interactions with one another are kept to an absolute minimum (there's likely a similar justification for keeping Sasuke and Sakura apart so much in Boruto). And it makes perfect sense. Hinata is a flat character. She brings nothing to the table. Take away her love for Naruto and what do you have exactly? 

 

I'm reminded of the classic Disney movies (i.e. Cinderalla) where the lead character is in love with the prince/princess at first sight, knows little-to-nothing about said prince/princess and the marries said prince/princess at the end of the movie and lives "happily ever after." The movies rightfully end at these characters living "happily ever after" because any story afterwards is going to be dull and uninteresting without creating/inventing new characteristics for both the prince and princess characters to have. Or even worse, something like this would be the writer's logical conclusion: 

 

Now yes, I understand most fans' justification for preferring Naruto and Hinata together. Generally, it's a matter of "I would choose Hinata", "I hate Sakura" or anything along the lines of inserting oneself into Naruto's position, but that's not what a reader should do. Naruto wasn't designed to be a self-insert character along the lines of Kirito from Sword Art Online, but a character  (who though relatable) had his own wishes/desires from the getgo. From a writing standpoint, I just don't see any reason for him to give up on pursuing Sakura without the proper character development that would be needed to get him to make that kind of decision.

 

But this thread isn't a "Why NaruSaku should have happened" thread. It's a "what's the appeal of NaruHina from a writing standpoint" thread. And frankly, I don't see any. The characters don't play off each other as is the case with Naruto and Sakura (although that could've been changed had we gotten sufficient character development on Hinata's part) and Naruto just isn't allowed to be "Naruto" when Hinata is around. Whereas with Sakura, Naruto being Naruto is a source of endless gags and character development, Naruto cannot be Naruto around Hinata without deflating the entire scene they are in and Naruto's antics flying over her head. Brilliant case in point:

 

tumblr_neaafoy8tC1taq4j8o1_500.jpg

 

Which version would make a more interesting short story? Conflict is a good thing.  :wink:

 

As a result, the writers have no desire to showcase how "great" Naruto and HInata's marriage is (with good reason) and instead inadverdently take it to its logical conclusion. A husband who is never at home and hides from his wife and children. In any other story, tendencies like these would be interpreted as Naruto being unhappy with his marriage and possibly having an affair with someone at his office.  Things we know Naruto would never consider doing, but nonetheless things the writers have allowed as possibly interpretations all for the sake of pairing him together with Hinata without bothering to evolve her character beyond "Naruto-kun." 

 

*sigh*

 

There is no sense in the appeal of NaruHina from a writing standpoint. it is just wish fulfillment for beta males and shy girls scorned by the "nice guy". the ideal girl for any beta male is one that is passive submissive and would not emasculate him, which is why they are self inserting themselves to Naruto and don't like Sakura because she did not like him in the beginning and hated her tsundere personality. Forget the fact that Sakura was becoming much sweeter to Naruto and understanding him and his emotional pain better, not to mention showing an unshakable faith in him. she will always be labeled as a heartless b**** for not loving Naruto form the beginning and blushing at his goofy smiling face. Where as there are probably are Girls imagining themselves as Hinata being the shy quiet girl that will Get the nice guy and not lose him to some snooty haughty hoe :lmao: because that's what happened to them. I assume at least. But the point is NH is not a reasonable couple from a writing point of view at all with how it turned out it is just plain stupid idiotic bias from fans 


3fbe3276d61acb2079b56cd2212a341c14963200


#7 Wubbzy

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Posted 24 February 2017 - 10:43 PM

I would have to say, it is most likely because Hinata liked Naruto first. I heard the argument that since she always liked him, even when he was considered dead last, she should end up with him. And I guess there is some appeal to that, but I wholeheartedly agree with you that just because she liked him first, doesn't mean they will have the best chemistry, or any chemistry at all. 

 

This was my main gripe with NH, and why I couldn't support it during part 2. I just didn't see them going well together, because their personalities, and the way they act, just didn't go well. 

 

I don't really understand it either, though. So I'm probably not the best to answer, haha. 


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#8 BestSasuHinaSupporter

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Posted 24 February 2017 - 10:52 PM

I'm not a NaruHina shipper and NEVER will be, But let me explain from the conversations/debates/arguments i've had over the years with NaruHina fans to you all the most prominent reasons as to why NaruHina fans like the NaruHina pairing so much:

 

Well there's a lot of reasons really, here's a quick rundown of the ones off the top of my head, no particular order

 

  • NaruHina fans think Hinata is cute as a button (I do to) and NaruHina fans think we always root for the underdog. I mean, c'mon NaruHina fans think she's this cute little shy girl crushing on the guy that no-one likes, no-one wants, she's the only one who sees any value in him. NaruHina fans think It's sweet.

     
  • NaruHina fans think She's got the most believable and endearing love in the series. I don't wanna go into why I feel Sakura's enduring love feels tacked on but basically there's no real reason her, Ino or anyone else loves Sasuke. We haven't got a single reason why it's so. We have a slight reason Naruto loves Sakura but it's pretty flimsy (he gives it while she's freaking hitting on another guy...) but with Hinata we know exactly what Naruto means to her, why he means so much to her and we've seen her growth through him.

     
  • Mutual support, as above in part 1. Where she was the only one to see value in him, he was the only one to see value in her. Literally everyone else told her to Forfeit to Neji or to give up, or told Naruto to give up on her. Naruto was cheering for her and telling her she could change while she was getting beaten to within an inch of her life. Then when he showed his weakness to her before his fight to Neji she supported him and gave him the self belief he needed to win.

     
  • Building on that point, NaruHina fans think she is literally the only person he's ever shown self doubt/confidence to. His confession to her is far more open than he's with to anyone. He couldn't tell Sasuke that he's not really any good, he would never tell Sakura that he doesn't believe in himself, he could never admit to anyone how painful his failures are. There's a number of times through the series we see Naruto putting on an act/mask for his friends, where he's all happy and laughing then as soon as he's alone he's serious and thoughtful. His talk with Hinata is the only time he ever takes his mask off, she's the only one he let himself be vulnerable around.

     
  • NaruHina fans see Her growth through him, NaruHina fans think it's been inspiring seeing this girl who was weak, was useless to her clan, who couldn't reach any of her dreams saw his strength, followed his Nindo and chased him endlessly to finally be able to walk beside him.

     
  • As a meta point. Because she's nice and sweet and nice sweet girls never ever win. If you've watched much Anime or read much Manga you'll know that the "First Girl always wins" and that the "Violent Tsundere always wins". Literally from the first volume of Naruto you'd normally assume it'd be a Naruto alone or NaruSaku ending. Hinata changes that, girls like Hinata never, ever win. NaruHina fans think It's nice that she one, Because NaruHina fans think this is the first time in ages it looks like one may have a chance. It's nothing if not a nice change of pace.

     
  • NaruHina fans think Her confession was brilliant, both in terms of character and in terms of story. Very few Shonen do romance at all as anything more than the most minor of all possible sub plots. They have a designated love interest and ignore it or they just use stupid cliche conventions and interrupts to keep kitten going. Naruto doesn't do any of that and it has a confession right in the middle of the series, not at the end, not after some romantic moment, but literally in the heat of battle as she goes to sacrifice her life for him. It was a kittening amazing moment, you'd never expect it.

     
  • NaruHina fans see that She was willing to die for him, but more than that, she's willing to face anything for him. Compare the girl that's literally shaking at the thought of facing her cousin to the woman who's willing to face down Pain, who'll block the Jyuubei from Naruto without a second thought, who'll stand strong infront of the Shinobi Alliance Army and call them to her side to face down Madara.

     
  • And again NaruHina fans think she's just really sweet and nice. You can't help but want nice things for someone like Hinata. But for me Sasuke would be be something nice for her

     
  • NaruHina fans think Naruto and Hinata are the only ones who can understand each other. Hinata was weak and hated herself for her weakness, Naruto was weak and hated himself for his weakness. Where Hinata was about to give up she saw Naruto and saw "the right way", how he worked hard, he never gave up and even though he didn't really believe in himself he believed that one day he would. The whole Proud Failure bit is kittening brilliant, she doesn't want some genius Ninja, she wants him because he's what she wants to be, a Proud Failure rather than just a Failure. Hinata works as hard as anyone, she's not weak from lack of effort, she works hard following his example and is still weak, she still can't match up... But she, like him believes one day she'll be strong.

     
  • So I can appreciate that, I think at this point NaruHina fans are  mostly arguing taste and taste's subjective. If you like the kind'a girl Hinata is then great, if you don't then all good.

     
  • NaruHina fans think She's a foil but no more than the other girls are, none of them really get any kind of development at all Hinata at least gets a full character arc, we see her grow from a timid girl to a strong, brave woman. Having her idolise Naruto was a good way of juxtaposing both characters together, it's not some baseless fantasy like what Ino (and Sakura at least early on) had of Sasuke. It's based in their joint weakness. Through the reasons she likes him we learn about Naruto, we see how hard he's always worked, we see how easy he could have gone down the path she almost did, and to a lesser extent it ties in nicely with Shikamaru's conversation with his father about Naruto making people want to follow him, to be their best.

     
  • Flawless? She's shy to the point of ridiculousness. If you want more flaws she'd need to have more screen time, side characters in Naruto get almost none and women even less. I mean, what's Temari's flaws? What's Inos? What's Kushinas? Hinata's flaw is her lack of self confidence and her inherant weakness, keep in mind that she trains hard, yet she's still weak, her growth is about working through those flaws.

     
  • So again, sure she could do with a more nuanced personality but I mean... Even Sakura barely has anything in that way. What's Sakura's flaws? That she's got a hair-trigger anger? That's not really a flaw, that's part of her archetype as Tsundere (and just like Hinata's shyness, it's played up as endearing). Okay, so that she's got low chakra pool? I dunno, seriously, what's Sakura's flaws? She's the Heroine here, she's had far more development and panel time than Hinata.

     
  • The "Perfect woman a man desires" is actually again, part of her archetype. Hinata falls under the Yamato Nadeshiko type trope. But I mean, it's just an archetype, it's not any more relevant than if the series had an Ojousama, an Imuouto an Osana Najimie etcetc. Most of the characters in Naruto, or hell any manga are based around one archetype or another, they're then twisted and changed enough to be unique. I don't wanna keep bringing it back to a NaruHina vs NaruSaku thing but Sakura's the main heroine so she's the obvious comparison and she's an archetypical Tsundere.

     
  • If you don't like the archetype then fine, but it's how her character design is based so I mean, it's kind'a pointless to have a problem with her filling some of the roles of it. As for the character design bit, Sakura graduates to wearing a short vest and hot pants. Hinata gets big breats but she still wears layers and dresses down, Sakura is mentioned constantly as a peerless beauty, no-one ever talks about Hinata as anything except a plain girl.




     

 



#9 Wubbzy

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Posted 24 February 2017 - 11:12 PM

I'm not a NaruHina shipper and NEVER will be, But let me explain from the conversations/debates/arguments i've had over the years with NaruHina fans to you all the most prominent reasons as to why NaruHina fans like the NaruHina pairing so much:

 

Well there's a lot of reasons really, here's a quick rundown of the ones off the top of my head, no particular order

 

  • NaruHina fans think Hinata is cute as a button (I do to) and NaruHina fans think we always root for the underdog. I mean, c'mon NaruHina fans think she's this cute little shy girl crushing on the guy that no-one likes, no-one wants, she's the only one who sees any value in him. NaruHina fans think It's sweet.

     
  • NaruHina fans think She's got the most believable and endearing love in the series. I don't wanna go into why I feel Sakura's enduring love feels tacked on but basically there's no real reason her, Ino or anyone else loves Sasuke. We haven't got a single reason why it's so. We have a slight reason Naruto loves Sakura but it's pretty flimsy (he gives it while she's freaking hitting on another guy...) but with Hinata we know exactly what Naruto means to her, why he means so much to her and we've seen her growth through him.

     
  • Mutual support, as above in part 1. Where she was the only one to see value in him, he was the only one to see value in her. Literally everyone else told her to Forfeit to Neji or to give up, or told Naruto to give up on her. Naruto was cheering for her and telling her she could change while she was getting beaten to within an inch of her life. Then when he showed his weakness to her before his fight to Neji she supported him and gave him the self belief he needed to win.

     
  • Building on that point, NaruHina fans think she is literally the only person he's ever shown self doubt/confidence to. His confession to her is far more open than he's with to anyone. He couldn't tell Sasuke that he's not really any good, he would never tell Sakura that he doesn't believe in himself, he could never admit to anyone how painful his failures are. There's a number of times through the series we see Naruto putting on an act/mask for his friends, where he's all happy and laughing then as soon as he's alone he's serious and thoughtful. His talk with Hinata is the only time he ever takes his mask off, she's the only one he let himself be vulnerable around.

     
  • NaruHina fans see Her growth through him, NaruHina fans think it's been inspiring seeing this girl who was weak, was useless to her clan, who couldn't reach any of her dreams saw his strength, followed his Nindo and chased him endlessly to finally be able to walk beside him.

     
  • As a meta point. Because she's nice and sweet and nice sweet girls never ever win. If you've watched much Anime or read much Manga you'll know that the "First Girl always wins" and that the "Violent Tsundere always wins". Literally from the first volume of Naruto you'd normally assume it'd be a Naruto alone or NaruSaku ending. Hinata changes that, girls like Hinata never, ever win. NaruHina fans think It's nice that she one, Because NaruHina fans think this is the first time in ages it looks like one may have a chance. It's nothing if not a nice change of pace.

     
  • NaruHina fans think Her confession was brilliant, both in terms of character and in terms of story. Very few Shonen do romance at all as anything more than the most minor of all possible sub plots. They have a designated love interest and ignore it or they just use stupid cliche conventions and interrupts to keep kitten going. Naruto doesn't do any of that and it has a confession right in the middle of the series, not at the end, not after some romantic moment, but literally in the heat of battle as she goes to sacrifice her life for him. It was a kittening amazing moment, you'd never expect it.

     
  • NaruHina fans see that She was willing to die for him, but more than that, she's willing to face anything for him. Compare the girl that's literally shaking at the thought of facing her cousin to the woman who's willing to face down Pain, who'll block the Jyuubei from Naruto without a second thought, who'll stand strong infront of the Shinobi Alliance Army and call them to her side to face down Madara.

     
  • And again NaruHina fans think she's just really sweet and nice. You can't help but want nice things for someone like Hinata. But for me Sasuke would be be something nice for her

     
  • NaruHina fans think Naruto and Hinata are the only ones who can understand each other. Hinata was weak and hated herself for her weakness, Naruto was weak and hated himself for his weakness. Where Hinata was about to give up she saw Naruto and saw "the right way", how he worked hard, he never gave up and even though he didn't really believe in himself he believed that one day he would. The whole Proud Failure bit is kittening brilliant, she doesn't want some genius Ninja, she wants him because he's what she wants to be, a Proud Failure rather than just a Failure. Hinata works as hard as anyone, she's not weak from lack of effort, she works hard following his example and is still weak, she still can't match up... But she, like him believes one day she'll be strong.

     
  • So I can appreciate that, I think at this point NaruHina fans are  mostly arguing taste and taste's subjective. If you like the kind'a girl Hinata is then great, if you don't then all good.

     
  • NaruHina fans think She's a foil but no more than the other girls are, none of them really get any kind of development at all Hinata at least gets a full character arc, we see her grow from a timid girl to a strong, brave woman. Having her idolise Naruto was a good way of juxtaposing both characters together, it's not some baseless fantasy like what Ino (and Sakura at least early on) had of Sasuke. It's based in their joint weakness. Through the reasons she likes him we learn about Naruto, we see how hard he's always worked, we see how easy he could have gone down the path she almost did, and to a lesser extent it ties in nicely with Shikamaru's conversation with his father about Naruto making people want to follow him, to be their best.

     
  • Flawless? She's shy to the point of ridiculousness. If you want more flaws she'd need to have more screen time, side characters in Naruto get almost none and women even less. I mean, what's Temari's flaws? What's Inos? What's Kushinas? Hinata's flaw is her lack of self confidence and her inherant weakness, keep in mind that she trains hard, yet she's still weak, her growth is about working through those flaws.

     
  • So again, sure she could do with a more nuanced personality but I mean... Even Sakura barely has anything in that way. What's Sakura's flaws? That she's got a hair-trigger anger? That's not really a flaw, that's part of her archetype as Tsundere (and just like Hinata's shyness, it's played up as endearing). Okay, so that she's got low chakra pool? I dunno, seriously, what's Sakura's flaws? She's the Heroine here, she's had far more development and panel time than Hinata.

     
  • The "Perfect woman a man desires" is actually again, part of her archetype. Hinata falls under the Yamato Nadeshiko type trope. But I mean, it's just an archetype, it's not any more relevant than if the series had an Ojousama, an Imuouto an Osana Najimie etcetc. Most of the characters in Naruto, or hell any manga are based around one archetype or another, they're then twisted and changed enough to be unique. I don't wanna keep bringing it back to a NaruHina vs NaruSaku thing but Sakura's the main heroine so she's the obvious comparison and she's an archetypical Tsundere.

     
  • If you don't like the archetype then fine, but it's how her character design is based so I mean, it's kind'a pointless to have a problem with her filling some of the roles of it. As for the character design bit, Sakura graduates to wearing a short vest and hot pants. Hinata gets big breats but she still wears layers and dresses down, Sakura is mentioned constantly as a peerless beauty, no-one ever talks about Hinata as anything except a plain girl.

The part I bolded part of what you said, kinda got me confused. Sakura was literally the most hated character in the entire manga for the longest times because of all her flaws and how people perceived her as weak and useless, and unable to do anything. I can see what you're saying on why they like NH. But I just wanted to point this out. Sakura was the most human (and arguably made the most mistakes) throughout the entire manga. 

 

And I can't help but agree. That's why I liked NH in Part 1 (at least was neutral about it). However, when Part 2 happened, I just didn't see the chemistry between the two. I'd rather be shown chemistry, then be told it's there. Maybe it's because we didn't see them actually interacting together, and they didn't have enough development, but I would have liked to see them talking and actually be friends first before anything stemmed from that. I don't know, it just felt too forced for my taste. 


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#10 Aevrum

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Posted 25 February 2017 - 12:02 AM

Good topic. And one I think about as an NS writer too. Why the appeal for NH?
 
I mean, I get it with SS he's the super-tough, orphan prodigy and Sakura is his opposite as the scrappy girl who pulls herself up using her own strength. It's Zuko and Katara (and a million other pairings).
 
But NH? Without radically changing Hinata, it's just a flimsy fairytale romance. She wins the hero that she's too shy to speak to just by virtue of her goodness. She does nothing to act, to change and become his equal. Instead, he takes notice of her. The romance is strictly one-sided.
 
For writers (and readers) I think the decision to focus on NH is based in their personal preference rather than the existence of a compelling story or great chemistry between the two characters. NH could be the straight-up fairy tale (hero picks the shy girl, against all odds), it could be that they identify with Naruto as a child-like hero going for the blemish-free princess, or it could be that they identify with the super-shy girl who gets noticed by the cool boy.  
 
For me, to make NH a more interesting story, then Hinata would have to change. She would have to grow into someone worthy of being the main hero's counterpart, emotionally develop past her self-doubt to be a confident person, grow beyond her civilian duties to her family to become a powerful shinobi in her own right, and actively move toward seizing that love offered to her. And at the point that all these happen, it's clear that she's worthy to stand next to Naruto because she has finally become...Sakura. :love:


Funny, with me it's quite the opposite.
Maybe it's because I'm male (and with a mostly strict traditional Asian (turkish) background), that I can actually see the charm in NH, but actually detest SS:

[Leaving the character chemistry aside, where both are terrible.]

I mean, if I would have been Sasuke, I would have really hated Sakura.
A quick self-insert: She knows nothing about me as a person, does not care about my emotional status and feelings and makes during the whole story no real effort to change that fact. Always after the own goal to claim her 'prize' and 'dream', shallowly infuriated with my looks; and throwing herself at me after years of not really even seeing one another and knowing, that I'm not interested. And not to forget, that she doesn't even has the excuse anymore, that she is a kid, like it was in Part 1.

There is no way I would want to share my life with such a girl.
How could that be appealing to any male reader/watcher? And I can't really imagine this shallow Sakura here to be appealing to any female.

In contrast, NH is (a little bit) better.
It has SOME of the same problems in a weaker form (Hinata is again shallowly all about the man and is shown to be selfish about her love later in the manga in some scenes, like the Pain attack and the war), but she is much more 'defensive' in her approach. She knows, that she is selfish and doesn't know Naruto very much, which was stated many many times in the Manga, but would accept any decision Naruto makes, regarding his 'love-life', and wants to know him better.

The point which makes NH acceptable from my perspective is know, that it is clear, that there is no way, that you can have the love of your life (Sakura), and you are back in reality. And the first thing you see, is that friendly girl, that would never hurt you like SHE did and with whome you can live a humble and normal life, after everything you went through.

There is a saying in turkish, which states, "The most important things [in a relationship] are fondness, respect and comprehension [,the rest will come with time]", which I see as mostly given here.

Love is a thing, that has to develop out of these traits, which makes Hinata's building love throughout the years explainable, contrary to Sakura's wannabe love towards Sasuke.
(That's also why I see Naruto's affection towards Sakura soo much better than Hinata's to him, or Sakura's to Sasuke: At first, he simply states that he "like[s] her" [and does not throw the word 'love' around himself like other characters during the story; love is such a strong emotion and should not be used inflationary like preteens do it, only because you find someone good-looking]. Afterwards we get already in the same chapter, the other two main points at the bench: His respect for her and his comprehension, beside his fondness)

But that of course also means: You have to accept, that Naruto loves/loved Sakura and she broke his heart, to find NH appealing.
But I don't understand at the same time, how anyone found it appealing, BEFORE we were shown that Sakura was too addicted to Sasuke, at the last third of the manga.
I, myself, never ever even considered NH as a possibility, when I watched the Anime Part 1 and early Shippuden.

#11 Bail o' Lies

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Posted 25 February 2017 - 01:19 AM

I may write something long later but the short version is: "There was no appeal from a writing perceptive. nH was an insert revenge fantasy for the supporters against girls from highschool that for boys friendzoned them and for girls stole the man that was rightfully theirs."



#12 Aevrum

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Posted 25 February 2017 - 01:43 AM

I know you only stated other opinions, but I had to respond at these points^^:

 

 

 

NaruHina fans think Hinata is cute as a button (I do to) and NaruHina fans think we always root for the underdog. I mean, c'mon NaruHina fans think she's this cute little shy girl crushing on the guy that no-one likes, no-one wants, she's the only one who sees any value in him. NaruHina fans think It's sweet.

 

 

Isn't Naruto also the 'underdog' in NS and the whole manga (till he becomes ridiculously a semi-god)? And Sakura that girl everyone bullied, that seeks confirmation chasing the prodigy?

 

 

 

 

NaruHina fans think She's got the most believable and endearing love in the series. I don't wanna go into why I feel Sakura's enduring love feels tacked on but basically there's no real reason her, Ino or anyone else loves Sasuke. We haven't got a single reason why it's so. We have a slight reason Naruto loves Sakura but it's pretty flimsy (he gives it while she's freaking hitting on another guy...) but with Hinata we know exactly what Naruto means to her, why he means so much to her and we've seen her growth through him.

 

 

That's actually my biggest problem with NH: It's all talk and no action and that from the beginning. If he really means something to her, why didn't she do something during the academy days? You would think, after witnessing his struggle and observing him, she would be inclined to help him out and try to cheer him up - but no, she is satisfied with watching, comforting herself with her shyness. Later she takes his nindo and(, if it was not hypocritical enough, after not helping him) does nothing to progress on this 'ninja way'. Always thinking about how she will be like Naruto, but at the end doing nothing and not growing at all.

 

  • Mutual support, as above in part 1. Where she was the only one to see value in him, he was the only one to see value in her. Literally everyone else told her to Forfeit to Neji or to give up, or told Naruto to give up on her. Naruto was cheering for her and telling her she could change while she was getting beaten to within an inch of her life. Then when he showed his weakness to her before his fight to Neji she supported him and gave him the self belief he needed to win.

I watched the whole Anime a few months ago, after not being interested in Naruto for several years, and watched it with 'pro-NH-goggles', because they became canon. But Naruto's cheering for Hinata was as anti-NH as a scene can be. It featured a totally kitten Naruto, who didn't care about Hinata's well being and that she nearly died, and only wanted to prove Neiji wrong, to feel vindicated in his narrow-minded world-view. She was seriously wounded and he still used his power over her, to make her continue with the fight. The bload oath was pretty nice, but also overshadowed by the fact that HE was the cause for all this. 

 

But I have to agree with the 'proud failure' part, that was really great.

 

  • Building on that point, NaruHina fans think she is literally the only person he's ever shown self doubt/confidence to. His confession to her is far more open than he's with to anyone. He couldn't tell Sasuke that he's not really any good, he would never tell Sakura that he doesn't believe in himself, he could never admit to anyone how painful his failures are. There's a number of times through the series we see Naruto putting on an act/mask for his friends, where he's all happy and laughing then as soon as he's alone he's serious and thoughtful. His talk with Hinata is the only time he ever takes his mask off, she's the only one he let himself be vulnerable around.

That's simply not true. One look from chapter 1 to the end of the wave arc paints a whole other picture.

 

  • NaruHina fans see Her growth through him, NaruHina fans think it's been inspiring seeing this girl who was weak, was useless to her clan, who couldn't reach any of her dreams saw his strength, followed his Nindo and chased him endlessly to finally be able to walk beside him.

See above. She has done nothing and was not able to walk beside him, no matter how much she talked.

 

  • As a meta point. Because she's nice and sweet and nice sweet girls never ever win. If you've watched much Anime or read much Manga you'll know that the "First Girl always wins" and that the "Violent Tsundere always wins". Literally from the first volume of Naruto you'd normally assume it'd be a Naruto alone or NaruSaku ending. Hinata changes that, girls like Hinata never, ever win. NaruHina fans think It's nice that she one, Because NaruHina fans think this is the first time in ages it looks like one may have a chance. It's nothing if not a nice change of pace.

I have actually no right talking about this, but this is silly^^.

 

 

  • NaruHina fans think Her confession was brilliant, both in terms of character and in terms of story. Very few Shonen do romance at all as anything more than the most minor of all possible sub plots. They have a designated love interest and ignore it or they just use stupid cliche conventions and interrupts to keep kitten going. Naruto doesn't do any of that and it has a confession right in the middle of the series, not at the end, not after some romantic moment, but literally in the heat of battle as she goes to sacrifice her life for him. It was a kittening amazing moment, you'd never expect it.

I think it was as cliche, as a confession can really be in a battle format. Plus it destroyed what I liked about NH, that she didn't shove her feelings down Naruto's throat. Here she jumps planless into the action to simply just die after confessing, because she knows he doesn't love her back and, seriously, why should she live after 'losing' her 'Naruto-Kun'? What a waste of story-telling-potential.

 

  • NaruHina fans see that She was willing to die for him, but more than that, she's willing to face anything for him. Compare the girl that's literally shaking at the thought of facing her cousin to the woman who's willing to face down Pain, who'll block the Jyuubei from Naruto without a second thought, who'll stand strong infront of the Shinobi Alliance Army and call them to her side to face down Madara.

See above and again hypocrisy at it's finest. Guilt-tripping Naruto together with her cousin, that he has to also fight for 'her', during the kittening war. If she had stayed true to her words in part 1, she would have been stronger and Neiji wouldn't have had to die, so that that scene wouldn't even have happened.

 

  • And again NaruHina fans think she's just really sweet and nice. You can't help but want nice things for someone like Hinata. But for me Sasuke would be be something nice for her

Okay, I think this doesn't need a comment, I guess other characters don't deserve nice things^^

 

  • NaruHina fans think Naruto and Hinata are the only ones who can understand each other. Hinata was weak and hated herself for her weakness, Naruto was weak and hated himself for his weakness. Where Hinata was about to give up she saw Naruto and saw "the right way", how he worked hard, he never gave up and even though he didn't really believe in himself he believed that one day he would. The whole Proud Failure bit is kittening brilliant, she doesn't want some genius Ninja, she wants him because he's what she wants to be, a Proud Failure rather than just a Failure. Hinata works as hard as anyone, she's not weak from lack of effort, she works hard following his example and is still weak, she still can't match up... But she, like him believes one day she'll be strong.

All the things above, plus: Naruto doesn't understand her a bit, he was never really weak and didn't hate himself, and we were literally shown, how she brings her father and Neiji tea instead of training, while thinking about how she will get better. It's a joke.

 

  • NaruHina fans think She's a foil but no more than the other girls are, none of them really get any kind of development at all Hinata at least gets a full character arc, we see her grow from a timid girl to a strong, brave woman. Having her idolise Naruto was a good way of juxtaposing both characters together, it's not some baseless fantasy like what Ino (and Sakura at least early on) had of Sasuke. It's based in their joint weakness. Through the reasons she likes him we learn about Naruto, we see how hard he's always worked, we see how easy he could have gone down the path she almost did, and to a lesser extent it ties in nicely with Shikamaru's conversation with his father about Naruto making people want to follow him, to be their best.

This is a joke right? Is there really someone thinking like this? What path?^^ She had, again, no growth and hers was the biggest fantasy: She idolized Naruto, he was everything she wished to be. She didn't really understand him - he was her fountain of inspiration, you have to give nothing back. And what makes it better: Her motivations, in their foundations, were always idol-romantical. How she faints, like teens seeing their idolized pop-star on stage. That's totally unhealthy.

 

  • Flawless? She's shy to the point of ridiculousness. If you want more flaws she'd need to have more screen time, side characters in Naruto get almost none and women even less. I mean, what's Temari's flaws? What's Inos? What's Kushinas? Hinata's flaw is her lack of self confidence and her inherant weakness, keep in mind that she trains hard, yet she's still weak, her growth is about working through those flaws.

Every female character in Naruto is super flawed. The difference is: Hinata does the least in the end to grow out of them, she gets actually worse.

 

  • So again, sure she could do with a more nuanced personality but I mean... Even Sakura barely has anything in that way. What's Sakura's flaws? That she's got a hair-trigger anger? That's not really a flaw, that's part of her archetype as Tsundere (and just like Hinata's shyness, it's played up as endearing). Okay, so that she's got low chakra pool? I dunno, seriously, what's Sakura's flaws? She's the Heroine here, she's had far more development and panel time than Hinata.

Not worth adressing^^

 

  • The "Perfect woman a man desires" is actually again, part of her archetype. Hinata falls under the Yamato Nadeshiko type trope. But I mean, it's just an archetype, it's not any more relevant than if the series had an Ojousama, an Imuouto an Osana Najimie etcetc. Most of the characters in Naruto, or hell any manga are based around one archetype or another, they're then twisted and changed enough to be unique. I don't wanna keep bringing it back to a NaruHina vs NaruSaku thing but Sakura's the main heroine so she's the obvious comparison and she's an archetypical Tsundere.

Fair point, again a thing of 'taste'.

 

 

 

Wow, that went pretty anti now^^ I of course focused on the negative points, but my conclusion is this:

NH had a super solid foundation in part 1 to build on (but [sadly, in retrospect?] nowhere near NS or SS emotions-wise), but it got totally destroyed in all it's outstanding features in part 2, only to still become canon.


Edited by Aevrum, 25 February 2017 - 01:54 AM.


#13 ThroughWithLove

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Posted 25 February 2017 - 02:12 AM

I'm not a NaruHina shipper and NEVER will be, But let me explain from the conversations/debates/arguments i've had over the years with NaruHina fans to you all the most prominent reasons as to why NaruHina fans like the NaruHina pairing so much:

 

Well there's a lot of reasons really, here's a quick rundown of the ones off the top of my head, no particular order

 

  • NaruHina fans think Hinata is cute as a button (I do to) and NaruHina fans think we always root for the underdog. I mean, c'mon NaruHina fans think she's this cute little shy girl crushing on the guy that no-one likes, no-one wants, she's the only one who sees any value in him. NaruHina fans think It's sweet.

     
  • NaruHina fans think She's got the most believable and endearing love in the series. I don't wanna go into why I feel Sakura's enduring love feels tacked on but basically there's no real reason her, Ino or anyone else loves Sasuke. We haven't got a single reason why it's so. We have a slight reason Naruto loves Sakura but it's pretty flimsy (he gives it while she's freaking hitting on another guy...) but with Hinata we know exactly what Naruto means to her, why he means so much to her and we've seen her growth through him.

     
  • Mutual support, as above in part 1. Where she was the only one to see value in him, he was the only one to see value in her. Literally everyone else told her to Forfeit to Neji or to give up, or told Naruto to give up on her. Naruto was cheering for her and telling her she could change while she was getting beaten to within an inch of her life. Then when he showed his weakness to her before his fight to Neji she supported him and gave him the self belief he needed to win.

     
  • Building on that point, NaruHina fans think she is literally the only person he's ever shown self doubt/confidence to. His confession to her is far more open than he's with to anyone. He couldn't tell Sasuke that he's not really any good, he would never tell Sakura that he doesn't believe in himself, he could never admit to anyone how painful his failures are. There's a number of times through the series we see Naruto putting on an act/mask for his friends, where he's all happy and laughing then as soon as he's alone he's serious and thoughtful. His talk with Hinata is the only time he ever takes his mask off, she's the only one he let himself be vulnerable around.

     
  • NaruHina fans see Her growth through him, NaruHina fans think it's been inspiring seeing this girl who was weak, was useless to her clan, who couldn't reach any of her dreams saw his strength, followed his Nindo and chased him endlessly to finally be able to walk beside him.

     
  • As a meta point. Because she's nice and sweet and nice sweet girls never ever win. If you've watched much Anime or read much Manga you'll know that the "First Girl always wins" and that the "Violent Tsundere always wins". Literally from the first volume of Naruto you'd normally assume it'd be a Naruto alone or NaruSaku ending. Hinata changes that, girls like Hinata never, ever win. NaruHina fans think It's nice that she one, Because NaruHina fans think this is the first time in ages it looks like one may have a chance. It's nothing if not a nice change of pace.

     
  • NaruHina fans think Her confession was brilliant, both in terms of character and in terms of story. Very few Shonen do romance at all as anything more than the most minor of all possible sub plots. They have a designated love interest and ignore it or they just use stupid cliche conventions and interrupts to keep kitten going. Naruto doesn't do any of that and it has a confession right in the middle of the series, not at the end, not after some romantic moment, but literally in the heat of battle as she goes to sacrifice her life for him. It was a kittening amazing moment, you'd never expect it.

     
  • NaruHina fans see that She was willing to die for him, but more than that, she's willing to face anything for him. Compare the girl that's literally shaking at the thought of facing her cousin to the woman who's willing to face down Pain, who'll block the Jyuubei from Naruto without a second thought, who'll stand strong infront of the Shinobi Alliance Army and call them to her side to face down Madara.

     
  • And again NaruHina fans think she's just really sweet and nice. You can't help but want nice things for someone like Hinata. But for me Sasuke would be be something nice for her

     
  • NaruHina fans think Naruto and Hinata are the only ones who can understand each other. Hinata was weak and hated herself for her weakness, Naruto was weak and hated himself for his weakness. Where Hinata was about to give up she saw Naruto and saw "the right way", how he worked hard, he never gave up and even though he didn't really believe in himself he believed that one day he would. The whole Proud Failure bit is kittening brilliant, she doesn't want some genius Ninja, she wants him because he's what she wants to be, a Proud Failure rather than just a Failure. Hinata works as hard as anyone, she's not weak from lack of effort, she works hard following his example and is still weak, she still can't match up... But she, like him believes one day she'll be strong.

     
  • So I can appreciate that, I think at this point NaruHina fans are  mostly arguing taste and taste's subjective. If you like the kind'a girl Hinata is then great, if you don't then all good.

     
  • NaruHina fans think She's a foil but no more than the other girls are, none of them really get any kind of development at all Hinata at least gets a full character arc, we see her grow from a timid girl to a strong, brave woman. Having her idolise Naruto was a good way of juxtaposing both characters together, it's not some baseless fantasy like what Ino (and Sakura at least early on) had of Sasuke. It's based in their joint weakness. Through the reasons she likes him we learn about Naruto, we see how hard he's always worked, we see how easy he could have gone down the path she almost did, and to a lesser extent it ties in nicely with Shikamaru's conversation with his father about Naruto making people want to follow him, to be their best.

     
  • Flawless? She's shy to the point of ridiculousness. If you want more flaws she'd need to have more screen time, side characters in Naruto get almost none and women even less. I mean, what's Temari's flaws? What's Inos? What's Kushinas? Hinata's flaw is her lack of self confidence and her inherant weakness, keep in mind that she trains hard, yet she's still weak, her growth is about working through those flaws.

     
  • So again, sure she could do with a more nuanced personality but I mean... Even Sakura barely has anything in that way. What's Sakura's flaws? That she's got a hair-trigger anger? That's not really a flaw, that's part of her archetype as Tsundere (and just like Hinata's shyness, it's played up as endearing). Okay, so that she's got low chakra pool? I dunno, seriously, what's Sakura's flaws? She's the Heroine here, she's had far more development and panel time than Hinata.

     
  • The "Perfect woman a man desires" is actually again, part of her archetype. Hinata falls under the Yamato Nadeshiko type trope. But I mean, it's just an archetype, it's not any more relevant than if the series had an Ojousama, an Imuouto an Osana Najimie etcetc. Most of the characters in Naruto, or hell any manga are based around one archetype or another, they're then twisted and changed enough to be unique. I don't wanna keep bringing it back to a NaruHina vs NaruSaku thing but Sakura's the main heroine so she's the obvious comparison and she's an archetypical Tsundere.

     
  • If you don't like the archetype then fine, but it's how her character design is based so I mean, it's kind'a pointless to have a problem with her filling some of the roles of it. As for the character design bit, Sakura graduates to wearing a short vest and hot pants. Hinata gets big breats but she still wears layers and dresses down, Sakura is mentioned constantly as a peerless beauty, no-one ever talks about Hinata as anything except a plain girl.




     

 

 

I'm glad you brought these points up and thankyou for mentioning them as they remind me of a point I had initially intended to make in the OP. Each of the points you raise here are either premised on headcanon (i.e. Naruto and Hinata are the only ones who can understand each other) or ideas that have nothing to do with the writing (i.e. Hinata is as cute as a button). Or to put it another way, not much to draw from the actual source material. Yes, Hinata loved Naruto and Naruto did cheer for her during the chuunin exams, but the question is what the appeal is of them being together from a writing standpoint. When we look to the source material, not a single one of those points can be extrapolated (and sadly, not even from the post-ending material). Naruto and Hinata work well together not for any of those reasons, but because the writers say they do . . . end of story. 

 

Don't get the wrong idea. All of those points would make a great platform in a fanfic. Even better if the fanfic writer does as tricksie says and makes Hinata "grow into someone worthy of being the main hero's counterpart, emotionally develop past her self-doubt to be a confident person, grow beyond her civilian duties to her family to become a powerful shinobi in her own right, and actively move toward seizing that love offered to her." But Kishimoto didn't do any of that. Like it or not, throughout 99% of the manga, he left her on the wayside and made certain to consistently tell us that Naruto was in love with Sakura. Of course, Kishi now tells us that he simply didn't have time to write any romance being that this is a battle manga and all. And that would make perfect sense if not for the fact that the author admits to spending a lot of time writing romance . . . for the sake of red herrings. :no:

 

Let me include an example to better illustrate my point. People might rag me for this, but I'm a big fan of Belle x Gaston from Beauty in the Beauty. Might sound crazy, but with the right setup, this relationship not only works, but is as appealing as hell. https://www.fanficti.../1/Picture-This . For Belle x Gaston, I could easily make a laundry list of reasons for why I like this pairing. Even so, had Belle suddenly fallen in love with Gaston in the movie Beauty and Beast, it would have been a disaster for obvious reasons. Hell, I think Malfoy and Hermoine make a good couple, but if we were to have suddenly seen them get together in the final Harry Potter book, it would've been absurd.  From the standpoint of writing a solid narrative, the pairing you might have a preference towards is not necessarily the one that is best fits and compliments the story. With Naruto and Hinata, you have two characters getting together despite romantic interest consistently professed by the title character. You have two characters getting together despite the author's deliberate efforts to make readers believe that there was something festering between Naruto and his professed romantic interest (now deemed a red herring). You have two characters getting together despite the author's deliberate use and themes and parallels favoring Naruto and his professed romantic interest (now deemed 'red herrings').  You have two characters getting together despite despite Naruto's interactions with his professed romantic interest being tied to his central post-timeskip motivation (POA). Putting Naruto and Hinata together involves putting the narrative at odds with itself, undoing a great deal of what was already established and involves taking a piss on chekov's gun. A lot of fans get irritated when I say this, but it's bad writing.

 

But Kishi didn't have to put himself in this position. He could've easily have made Hinata a teammate on Squad 7 from the getgo. He could've alternatively simply brought her on missions in any number of fashions (i.e. making her an honorary team 7 member). He could have put her on the first Sasuke retrieval team as opposed to effing Chouji or Kiba. He had an infinite opportunities to give Hinata character development and flesh out a serious and solid relationship between herself and Naruto without crossing the "it's a battle manga!" excuse. No one forced him to develop a relationship between Naruto and a character who is supposedly no more important than Kiba. But he didn't do it. And I'll tell you why he didn't do it: Because up until a certain point in the final arc, he never intended for Naruto and Hinata to get together. When you think of what he could have done as opposed to wasting reader's time with all of the "red herrings", it's the only logical explanation.


Edited by ThroughWithLove, 25 February 2017 - 02:16 AM.

Posted Image

 

Behold! Akame ga Kill's True Canon Pairing!


#14 harry4e

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Posted 25 February 2017 - 11:35 AM

Well the few fanfics I've tried to read have Hinata as a OC, she's either a nicer clone of Sakura or she does a full flip and becomes a strong independent woman who stands beside Naruto as a genius who was just needed to get over her confidence issues, usually making the Hyuuga out to be complete monsters.

 

Hinata is not an interesting character, she's dull, and the most one dimensional from all the secondary characters in the series, not even two dimensional, her mantra starts and finishes with Naruto, it's why when you see someone have her depicted as a Yandere, you can see it happening because that's all she cares for.

 

Kishi might state that he always planned for her to be the main heroine, but it's shown in his manga he doesn't care for these types, look at the other characters he gave any spotlight, Tsunade, Kushina, Temari, Karin, even Konan, they were all independent women with (with the exception of Kanon) a strong stubborn streak. The only female that had any similar traits to Hinata was Mikoto, which made sense as her husband was a prick, and seeing him married to a strong independent type would not make sense...one of the reasons why Sakura and Sasuke both look like Mary Sues when together, they don't fit well together.

 

Someone who actually watched the second movie and read the accompanying manga can confirm this but have we seen Naruto and Hinata actually talk to each other since Neji died?


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#15 rocci

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Posted 25 February 2017 - 11:42 AM

I can understand the appeal of nh and why most people like and prefer it than NS.
I think nh has bigger claim if she's naruto childhood friend, too bad kishi potray her as a stalker.

#16 VoodooFX

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Posted 25 February 2017 - 01:53 PM

"what's the appeal of NaruHina from a writing standpoint"

 

Yeah, it's ..... oh, I got nothin' :)


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#17 Luna

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Posted 25 February 2017 - 02:18 PM

 

I'm glad you brought these points up and thankyou for mentioning them as they remind me of a point I had initially intended to make in the OP. Each of the points you raise here are either premised on headcanon (i.e. Naruto and Hinata are the only ones who can understand each other) or ideas that have nothing to do with the writing (i.e. Hinata is as cute as a button). Or to put it another way, not much to draw from the actual source material. Yes, Hinata loved Naruto and Naruto did cheer for her during the chuunin exams, but the question is what the appeal is of them being together from a writing standpoint. When we look to the source material, not a single one of those points can be extrapolated (and sadly, not even from the post-ending material). Naruto and Hinata work well together not for any of those reasons, but because the writers say they do . . . end of story. 

 

Don't get the wrong idea. All of those points would make a great platform in a fanfic. Even better if the fanfic writer does as tricksie says and makes Hinata "grow into someone worthy of being the main hero's counterpart, emotionally develop past her self-doubt to be a confident person, grow beyond her civilian duties to her family to become a powerful shinobi in her own right, and actively move toward seizing that love offered to her." But Kishimoto didn't do any of that. Like it or not, throughout 99% of the manga, he left her on the wayside and made certain to consistently tell us that Naruto was in love with Sakura. Of course, Kishi now tells us that he simply didn't have time to write any romance being that this is a battle manga and all. And that would make perfect sense if not for the fact that the author admits to spending a lot of time writing romance . . . for the sake of red herrings. :no:

 

Let me include an example to better illustrate my point. People might rag me for this, but I'm a big fan of Belle x Gaston from Beauty in the Beauty. Might sound crazy, but with the right setup, this relationship not only works, but is as appealing as hell. https://www.fanficti.../1/Picture-This . For Belle x Gaston, I could easily make a laundry list of reasons for why I like this pairing. Even so, had Belle suddenly fallen in love with Gaston in the movie Beauty and Beast, it would have been a disaster for obvious reasons. Hell, I think Malfoy and Hermoine make a good couple, but if we were to have suddenly seen them get together in the final Harry Potter book, it would've been absurd.  From the standpoint of writing a solid narrative, the pairing you might have a preference towards is not necessarily the one that is best fits and compliments the story. With Naruto and Hinata, you have two characters getting together despite romantic interest consistently professed by the title character. You have two characters getting together despite the author's deliberate efforts to make readers believe that there was something festering between Naruto and his professed romantic interest (now deemed a red herring). You have two characters getting together despite the author's deliberate use and themes and parallels favoring Naruto and his professed romantic interest (now deemed 'red herrings').  You have two characters getting together despite despite Naruto's interactions with his professed romantic interest being tied to his central post-timeskip motivation (POA). Putting Naruto and Hinata together involves putting the narrative at odds with itself, undoing a great deal of what was already established and involves taking a piss on chekov's gun. A lot of fans get irritated when I say this, but it's bad writing.

 

But Kishi didn't have to put himself in this position. He could've easily have made Hinata a teammate on Squad 7 from the getgo. He could've alternatively simply brought her on missions in any number of fashions (i.e. making her an honorary team 7 member). He could have put her on the first Sasuke retrieval team as opposed to effing Chouji or Kiba. He had an infinite opportunities to give Hinata character development and flesh out a serious and solid relationship between herself and Naruto without crossing the "it's a battle manga!" excuse. No one forced him to develop a relationship between Naruto and a character who is supposedly no more important than Kiba. But he didn't do it. And I'll tell you why he didn't do it: Because up until a certain point in the final arc, he never intended for Naruto and Hinata to get together. When you think of what he could have done as opposed to wasting reader's time with all of the "red herrings", it's the only logical explanation.

 

I'm glad you wrote that bit about Draco and Hermione which is one of my fav pairings on the HP fandom. I love Harry and Hermione too but I always thought Draco and Hermione as a couple would have much more to offer than Ron and Hermione. From a writing standpoint Dramione could be amazing. Two people from different worlds, one prejudiced and the other not. It's like star-crossed lovers, if you know what I mean. I would type more but I'm on my phone. 



 


#18 rikakim94

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Posted 25 February 2017 - 02:21 PM

I remember seeing that comic way back then I HATE how they exaggerated sakuras tsundere traits she isn't that bad. Only the anime made her that bad, In the part 2 manga she started to hit naruto less and be less aggressive with him. 


Edited by rikakim94, 25 February 2017 - 02:24 PM.


#19 ThroughWithLove

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Posted 25 February 2017 - 03:13 PM

Good topic. And one I think about as an NS writer too. Why the appeal for NH?

 

I mean, I get it with SS — he's the super-tough, orphan prodigy and Sakura is his opposite as the scrappy girl who pulls herself up using her own strength. It's Zuko and Katara (and a million other pairings).

 

But NH? Without radically changing Hinata, it's just a flimsy fairytale romance. She wins the hero that she's too shy to speak to just by virtue of her goodness. She does nothing to act, to change and become his equal. Instead, he takes notice of her. The romance is strictly one-sided.

 

For writers (and readers) I think the decision to focus on NH is based in their personal preference rather than the existence of a compelling story or great chemistry between the two characters. NH could be the straight-up fairy tale (hero picks the shy girl, against all odds), it could be that they identify with Naruto as a child-like hero going for the blemish-free princess, or it could be that they identify with the super-shy girl who gets noticed by the cool boy.  

 

For me, to make NH a more interesting story, then Hinata would have to change. She would have to grow into someone worthy of being the main hero's counterpart, emotionally develop past her self-doubt to be a confident person, grow beyond her civilian duties to her family to become a powerful shinobi in her own right, and actively move toward seizing that love offered to her. And at the point that all these happen, it's clear that she's worthy to stand next to Naruto because she has finally become...Sakura. :love:

 

Agreed.

 

Though in the case of SS, Zuko and Katara at least have the defense of having an entire episode of interacting with one another to build off of. SS doesn't even have that.

 

To me, for SS to work, both Sasuke and Sakura would need an ample amount of character development. The random headpoke scene at the end doesn't cut it and contrary to Kakashi's nonsense in 693, love does need a reason. Sakura needs a reason to be attracted to Sasuke and Sasuke needs one to be attracted to Sakura. Even with Bulma and Vegeta in DBZ, perhaps one of the most random pairing ever, Toriyama at least had Trunks provide a reason to Goku as to why they got together. This is why Sasuke and Sakura's moments together are kept to an absolute minimum in Boruto and why Sasuke keeps being sent off on these decade long trips. The writers have no idea how they interact, fear alienating viewers/readers by making them do something OOC and have no desire to spend the time it would take to develop Sasuke enough for him to have even a simple non-expositional conversation with his wife. :lmao:  So they take the lazy way out and make it to where Sasuke is gone all the time. Like NH, whenever you read and SS fanfic, both characters have a ton of new characteristics never seen in the source material.

 

 

 

I remember seeing that comic way back then I HATE how they exaggerated sakuras tsundere traits she isn't that bad. Only the anime made her that bad, In the part 2 manga she started to hit naruto less and be less aggressive with him. 

 
I know many NS fans take issue with that comic, but I for one don't have a problem with it. Sakura is rough with Naruto all the time, often played to a comedic effect. No different than Nami is with Luffy, ChiChi is with Goku or how Anna is with Yoh (Shaman King). Sakura's tsundere's elements are good thing; she's always been hot blooded, which makes their interactions a lot more interesting to read.
 
If the cockroach scenario were to go the way it's portrayed with Hinata, it'd be boring; she deflates all the tension in a nigh-mary sue fashion. I'd rather read about the short story where Sakura wrecks the house completely than read one where Hinata instantly solves the problem by calling Shino. There's no conflict or tension in the latter. As I said before, conflict is a good thing. It's one of the reasons NS is simply better in my eyes. Writers wouldn't need to hide them from each other in order to make up for the fact that they have no idea how to credibly write an extended interaction between the two. NS practically writes itself. 

Edited by ThroughWithLove, 25 February 2017 - 03:38 PM.

Posted Image

 

Behold! Akame ga Kill's True Canon Pairing!


#20 Nostradamus

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Posted 25 February 2017 - 06:16 PM

From a writing point of view? None.

From a business point of view? It was obvious. Or at least that's what they thought when choosing this current route.

Keep in mind that this wasn't chosen for the story, but for the money.


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These men are united now by a common cause. But when this battle is finished they will fall to fighting amongst themselves about how best to ensure control. In time it will lead to war. You will see.





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