Young Kubrick

Happy new year, I know we're a few days in and it doesn't feel like things are going very well, but I sincerely hope this new year and this new decade brings everyone here success in whatever they're looking to accomplish

None. I honestly don't even like the concept of tropes because even if a story element is overused, it can still be good if done properly. Plus, it's gotten to the point that even if someone creates something that isn't a trope, it will now become a trope.

 

No offense to anyone in this thread, but when I see people complain about tropes, it's usually them trying to act pretentious by naming off tropes to slam someone's writing when they couldn't write themselves out of a paper bag. 

That's not what I'm trying to do. I mean yeah, people complain about stupid stuff acting like it's criticism, it happens all the time. (CinemaSins, quite a bit of Doug Walker's stuff, dudebros, anyone who says something that involves minorities/women/LGBT people is "SJW propaganda", etc). And like Commander said, they exist for a reason: they've been proven to be effective, and more often then not they work. But there are honestly things that are done that you personally just don't like for whatever reason. Or even things that you may like, or not take issue with that you get burned out on. That's what I'm trying to say.

And yeah even stuff that falls under that has and can be done effectively. Like I said when talking about the twist in horror that the supernatural turns out to just be in the protagonist's head, I've seen it in things I like and done well, I just personally don't like that twist

With all of this, I definitely feel that in many ways Kakashi not only failed Sakura, but Sakura being on Team 7 was detrimental to her already challenged self-esteem. And it could have easily been the exact opposite, which is the most frustrating thing about not only this case but many of the series' low points. There's a choice being made to write things a certain way, and it's one thing when you write yourself in a corner and you don't know what to do, so you come up with whatever, but if a scenario can easily be written better and go down a different path why not do that instead of making a huge creative misstep?

I've seen these moments, and how they're even aware of the fact that Naruto and Sakura like each other almost to the point of breaking the fourth wall. On the one hand it's definitely a tease but maybe it could be showing something? Like I dunno, maybe it could be foreshadowing as later on they might have them get together by having them both get a divorce or maybe they're alone one night and "things" happen. Problem with that theory however, is that that would imply that the people behind Boruto are good at writing, which-as they have proven-they are not. And honestly, even if they did do that would that save the series as it has become? I honestly don't know

I've been meaning to be active on here but have been absent for a bit too. But nowhere near that long

I can't speak for everyone but I've been ok. Not much has been going on: the biggest thing is there was a NaruSaku fanzine that was made and put out. I actually contributed to it

Crap, I'm sorry that this happened

 

Yeah, I'm starting to feel like mainstream anime is a death sentence unless there's somehow great control over it.

Which kind of goes into what I'm saying. That the mainstream anime that get the most attention are the ones that cater to people's crude and base senses. Fanservice, unrealistic characters that can act like a total perv and/or jerk with little to no consequence, and fight scenes that although may be intense well-choreographed and epic are between characters that are written so mediocre that we have no investment in them at all so we don't care, all take precedence over story and character development

Again my hypothesis that it's the studios doing this to cater to Western audiences is just that: a hypothesis that I can't exactly prove. After all a lot of times Japanese creators and studios well don't exactly have American fans at the top of their priorities. Like seriously how many games have come out over there but have never been brought over here? But as anime is becoming less of a niche and more commonplace in America, and American film studios have even taken their stab at making movies based off of anime series. Movies that are not too bad I might add. (Course I also have to add that said movies are decent on their own but in terms of being adaptations they fail on so many levels and oh yeah white people...but I digress). So the idea that maybe they're looking to appeal to this crowd of American fans who don't exactly have the highest of tastes would just make sense from a business perspective

Like I said before I can't say this is a fact but this is the only logical conclusion I can come up with

Here's my theory on all this: what I've noticed is that some anime fans Americans and Westerners in particular from what I've seen favour these exact things. They seem to operate on literally the most basic sense. If you have stuff like this in a series they will sing its praises. It's like that's all they want. I've seen this all too much in the fandom so my idea is that maybe studios are trying to appeal to this lower common denominator especially in the West. And the fans excuse this just saying "it's escapism" in other words you don't need a good story realistically written characters that even in scenarios that could not logically happen behave in a way that feels real and a clear sense of direction so it's ok to make crap

I can't say objectively that this is the truth but from what I have seen amongst the fandom this is the only logical explanation I can come up with

Hey it's me. I joined some time ago but I haven't posted in a long time. I've been busy there's a lot of stuff going on a lot of drama and personal stuff...BUUUT I'm not going to bring everyone down with all the dirty details. Bottom line I'm back and while I was gone I got involved even more with the NS community via Tumblr and I'm looking forward to coming back here

 

Fuuck All Anti Sasuke People!


Uchiha Sasuke is a character whom I appreciate a lot and to analyze his personality was really interesting and so very complicated. However, I was confronted with a very interesting problem during this analysis. Contrary to Deidara, Sasori, Kakuzu or Hidan, I do not manage to analyze Sasuke with regard to his individual behavior. I found several points of view to analyze him, but all worked on a principle of confrontation with other characters to manage to encircle Sasuke’s personality. That I thought as a problem at first, turned out to be the most important and revealing point about Sasuke. I will let you discover this analysis, hoping that it will please you and hope that the many mistakes will not disrupt your reading.

 

To begin Sasuke’s analysis, I am going to begin with his childhood and especially with his relation with the person who had the most impact in his life : Uchiha Itachi. The brotherly bond establishes one of the three big links (with the conjugal bond and the parental bond) which structure the family. It plays a considerable role in the intrapsychic, emotional and social life of the subject. The hatred, the competition, the passion, the jealousy and love involve in the brotherly relation. I took the next quotations in a French public site of psychology and sociology. 


“The brotherly experience has a fundamental role in the construction of the personality by means of the process of differentiation of the sibship. The place of every child within the family system is very different: the first child sees himself as the love child, the second of the disappointment one.”

 

The disappointment? That reminded me of the relation between Fugaku and Sasuke. Fugaku was persuaded that his younger son would be exactly like Itachi, but finally, Sasuke progresses more slowly than Itachi and that disappoints him. Then, as regards the construction of the personality, it’s obvious that Sasuke became what Itachi made of him. All Itachi’s choices influenced Sasuke’s personality. Itachi said it :“It’s my fault if you are like that […]”

 

However, how could we understand this phenomenon between Itachi and Sasuke? Well, I suggest you going further into human psychology with Freud. 

 

Freud went deeper into the brotherly jealousy when he describes the normal jealousy in Œdipe or the brotherly complex. This complex contains in one hand the mourning and the suffering for the supposed lost object and in the other hand, a narcissistic humiliation bound to the hostile feelings to the rival (Itachi). Freud puts then in a report : the homosexuality and the strong brotherly jealousy, to the older brother in particular. (ItaSasu fans, it’s for you! ahaha) This jealousy can aggravate to arrive until the desire of his death. Then this rivalry can be overtaken and brother-rival is then transformed into an object of very deep love. Even if Sasuke doesn’t want Itachi’s death, when he was a child, Sasuke said that there was a tiny part of him who didn’t love his brother because he was really jealous of him. 


“The ban on the incest puts itself in the center of the brotherly relation (Totem and Taboo, in 1913). The incestuous feelings of the brother towards his brother can establish a dynamics conflicts. The brotherly link is constituted as well by tenderness as by sexuality (if we take into account the erotic games during the physical closeness of the sibship).”

 

The physical closeness? Well, the novel “Itachi Shinden” taught us that Itachi slept in the same room and the same bed as Sasuke. Then Sasuke made many hugs to Itachi when they were children. They were always very close.

 

Lacan, a French psychoanalyst, was particularly interested in the brotherly relation in his work on “The family complexes”. He studies the family complexes which have a fundamental role in the organization of the bonds and the psychic reality of the subject. He distinguishes three successive complexes: the complex of the weaning, the intrusion, and Œdipe.


“In the complex of the intrusion, the child is in front of his brother and observes him with a big curiosity. He imitates him in his movements, he tries to seduce him or to stand out by becoming a real show for him. It’s something more than a simple game : the child tries to socially position himself by love, by comparison to the other one, to his brother.” 

 

Another fact of seduction? It reminded me of the scene where Sasuke watches Itachi training with shurikens, then Itachi tells him to come back to home but Sasuke smiles to him and tells him : “Nii-san, look at me!” Then twist his ankle. Then as regards the observation, Itachi is a subject of fascination for Sasuke. He is in the shadow of this young man to whom everything successful! He is handsome, strong, smart, kind and appreciated by everyone. Sasuke is really frustrated because to become stronger than Itachi is doubtless the most difficult thing which he could undertake in his life and he feels that he is already late. But at the same time, he cannot stop himself to feel a big admiration to Itachi, an admiration which he will keep throughout his life.

 

 

For me, Sasuke is a teenager who has not yet managed to get rid of his childhood. And this childish behavior is visible only when that concerns Itachi. Sasuke idealizes his older brother just like a child would make it. Nobody has the right to speak ill of Itachi, or to criticize him because, for Sasuke, Itachi is the perfect man. For him, Itachi has no flaws and not only represents an ideal as a shinobi but also a male ideal. Besides, Sasuke has never stopped loving Itachi, even before he discovers the truth. I also think that Itachi was more than a brother for Sasuke but I will make an analysis on the relation between Itachi and Sasuke and there are MANY things to say! I will just finish with this sentence found in this study which reminded me Sasuke and Itachi :

 

“When there is premature death of a brother, remorse of the survivor become a part of the identity of the subject." 

Sasuke always wanted to surpass his limits to be capable of avenging his family but we fast realize that he also makes that by egocentricity, to surpass Naruto. Because like Deidara, Sasuke has an inferiority complex which had already begun when he was a child, with Itachi. And his frustration repeats itself with Naruto because Naruto puts himself ahead compare to Sasuke, just like Itachi was. Sasuke sees a part of Itachi in Naruto, where from the very strong relation between Naruto and Sasuke. Unconsciously in a lack of his older brother, Sasuke confronts Naruto. For me, that’s it the strength of the relation between Naruto and Sasuke. Even there, I will make an analysis just about them!

What defined Sasuke? Ah, the vengeance. It is not a very vast and not very interesting theme because he is very common in the characters of Naruto. But I found an interesting quotation in one of my French books who is entitled "The Red Moon” (Yes yes “Akatsuki”, aha), written by the talented Jean Lemieux : 

 

“What could be more illusory than the vengeance?”

This quotation takes all its sense when we think of Sasuke. For him, his vengeance in really been illusory. Indeed, Tobi said it to Sasuke, he wasn’t able to thwart Itachi’s illusions and all his vengeance rested only on a lie. Furthermore, the pleasure of the vengeance which promises the happiness and the delivery doesn’t last in reality, that a short moment and after the vengeance: there is nothing more, the nothingness. Exactly, many people blame Sasuke for having a change of heart, and for making stupid and immature decisions.

I think that when Itachi died, the vengeance has left an emptiness in Sasuke who finds himself aimless! Thus, he looks for unconscious ways to divert him from his pain and from this emptiness left by Itachi’s death. And these ways are : To join Akatsuki, destroy Konoha, become Hokage etc… 

 

Even if Sasuke shows nothing, he hates the solitude. And it sees itself : he goes out of his solitude with the team 7, then he goes with Orochimaru and Kabuto, once alone, there is a Hebi / Taka team. Sasuke was never really alone during his adventures. 

I finished this analysis at a point near, I was not able to speak about Sasuke without speaking about his relations. I really tried but except for the vengeance, I found nothing other who is really interesting to exploit in an analysis. Then, I said to myself that it was revealing. Sasuke alone wouldn’t have been the same man. Sasuke is a very influenceable young man and this is why I can explain his personality only through his relations with Itachi, Naruto, his parents etc… Sasuke is what he is today because his path has crossed some people who have changed him, who have given him a purpose, a dream, and many other things!
 

 

Thank you for having read this analysis,

 

I'm sorry but your emotions are completely blinding you from the point I was trying to make that Sasuke is a one-note character. I mean you did give a pretty well-thought out analysis of him in your opinion and it is really impressive how you related it to real life psychology. So huge huge props for that 

But as well-written as your analysis is you pretty much agreed that there's not much to him besides his thirst for vengeance worth talking about. I'm sorry but that's just it. There's nothing stopping you from keeping on loving Sasuke but you have to admit that much at least

Let me stop you right there. This is literally every single argument about Sasuke. EVERY. SINGLE. ONE. "Oh he lost everything". "Oh he endured a tragedy". You say that like it's not a well known fact. No one is denying that. Now look at all the points OP made. If you can say that everything Sasuke did in the points made is because of his horrible past-in more than just a psychological sense-than what we have here is (at least in what I'm seeing) a one-note character.

Seriously try to take the deaths of the Uchiha, and Sasuke's pain out of the equation for just a moment. What do you have? Yes his pain and suffering is his driving force, what makes him do what he does. But in Sasuke's case that driving force IS the character.

Other characters like Batman, Darth Vader, Spawn, etc. are also driven by pain and the need for vengeance and retribution and even wear it on their sleeves but they become something more than the pain that created them. Darth Vader is an example of as Nietzsche put it staring into the abyss long enough that it stares back and becoming the same monster he fought against, but also an example of redemption. Spawn-besides being ridiculously over-powered-is a character who decides to stop being a pawn in other's scheme and rebels. And among the many interpretations of Batman the most prominent-especially in the Nolan movies-is that he is a man who becomes an ideal. All of these characters are forged into something else by pain, anger, tragedy, but even though it all goes back to their tragedies, they become something more than their tragedies. Can you say the same about Sasuke?

OP said pretty much everything that needed to be said about Sasuke as a character. River literally said everything that I've thought and things I never even thought of. I mean having the story revolving around the relationship between Naruto and Sasuke is one thing, but this is how Sasuke is written? I mean Naruto isn't high art or anything but for the love of god is this the best Kishi could do? 

Anyway who else is hype for Rogue One?

I was honestly planning to make a thread about something along these lines. I love Naruto but somewhere the series just said "screw logic" and just came up with crap. All the boys grew up to be bad fathers, the girls became subservient housewives. Sakura is forced to raise a child that she had doubts she was the mother of. And Sasuke...oh god Sasuke...I don't even know where to begin everything wrong about Sasuke without going into a rage...

And about "true fans"...  If you ask me a "true fan" points out bs in a series and call out the writers/artists/creators for it. If you ask me that is the definition of a true fan: someone who likes a series but isn't so biased and emotionally blinded that they will see the cracks beneath the surface. The fans that treat even the slightest criticism of a series as a personal attack, and act like it's the best piece of fiction ever written ignore those cracks and because of that the cracks get bigger and sooner or later it's all going to fall apart. If you ask me they aren't "true fans"

Same feelings here plus my rage at the fact that Sasuke gets away with everything he did since his betrayal in part one just because he helped out in the final battle which he only did for his own reasons, not to help the Shinobi Alliance and everyone just seems to go along with it; no signs of protest or anything from the other Kage or shinobi. Kishi doesn't even try to hide his blatant favoritism of Sasuke by the War Arc.

On top of that, Kishi clearly tries to absolve the entire Uchiha Clan of any and all responsibility for their choices and actions, trying to paint them as 100% completely innocent victims, even inventing an incredibly stupid "Curse of Hatred" (they "love more than anyone so had to seal it off"), while seeming to try to put all of the blame on Konoha, and Tobirama in particular, and despite Tobirama's explanations, it seems to have worked with a chunk of the fan base who simply and blindly paint him as a heartless tyrant who endlessly persecuted the perfectly innocent Uchiha Clan and that if it weren't only for him, then the Uchiha would "never" have planned a coup and the massacre never would have happened and so on. That's not to say Tobirama didn't make his own mistakes that contributed to the problem, but he's hardly the only one to blame.

THIS! THIS! THIS IN EVERY SINGLE WAY!!!!

This is exactly what I'm saying. Everything Sasuke did got swept under the rug like "ok yeah he tried to kill Sakura, betrayed all his friends, was a total jerk to everyone but hey he helped us out this ONE time so he's definitely changed right? Let's just pretend nothing happened" WHAT THE FREAK!!!