31585 replies to this topic

[Yyubie]

WOW finally he said it .... TSUNDERE = VIOLENT

From a wolf in sheep cloak, turn into HULK

[TouKen4Life3g]

That's odd, because last time I saw about tsundere, I see like couple of them being top 3.

[Niky]

That's odd, because last time I saw about tsundere, I see like couple of them being top 3.

 

The tsundere female type is NOT a problem as long as she is horny for the male protagonist (read: average male reader's avatar)...

[NeonRanger]

I just think that Sakura is a mishandled tsundere trope, a failed potential character. The love triangle pretty much screwed her over in the end. 

[TouKen4Life3g]

I just think that Sakura is a mishandled tsundere trope, a failed potential character. The love triangle pretty much screwed her over in the end. 

She literally started off with all terrible traits you can have for a girl character.

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

 

You think 100% Asians hate the violent branch of tsundere? Then how do you explain many stories have good written violent female lead/side characters like Kanami Chidori (Full Metal Panic) and Shana (Shakugan no Shana)? If 100% of the Asian population hates this type of tsundere characters, the market would not make any profit and many authors would be discourage to write and include these characters into their works, especially, from the main character role 

Or look at how much people like Louise from Zero no Tsukaima and she's one of the most extreme tsunderes I can immediately recall.

[db84x]

That's odd, because last time I saw about tsundere, I see like couple of them being top 3.

 

Violent Tsundere is different with sweet tsundere

 

 

You think 100% Asians hate the violent branch of tsundere? Then how do you explain many stories have good written violent female lead/side characters like Kanami Chidori (Full Metal Panic) and Shana (Shakugan no Shana)? If 100% of the Asian population hates this type of tsundere characters, the market would not make any profit and many authors would be discourage to write and include these characters into their works, especially, from the main character role 

 

Usually they enter seinen market, since seinen audience have more tolerance with violent tsundere

 

Or look at how much people like Louise from Zero no Tsukaima and she's one of the most extreme tsunderes I can immediately recall.

 

Zero no Tsukaima lucky not enter shounen market (it seinen), all of us know how sensitive Asian shounen audience with violent tsundere.

Edited by db84x, 21 March 2016 - 02:32 PM.

[TouKen4Life3g]

I'm pretty sure it's acceptable in all else, so long people understand and if they don't, well, deal with it. Readers can't do anything but endure the writer's approach. I most likely miss some of the conversation nor I care that much, but is this a reason to justify the hate on Sakura?

Edited by TouKen4Life3g, 21 March 2016 - 02:22 PM.

[NeonRanger]

I think the reason why Sakura gets so much hate for her trope is because of how she acts around Sasuke. No one expects Sakura to treat Sasuke the same way as she acts around Naruto, but her devotion towards Sasuke had reached a point to where we needed a reason on why she cares for him so much, even if NS was canon in reverse. Before it was brushed off as a crush, but then, after the Five Kage Arc, Sasuke threatening the village and killing everyone, and the War Arc, the fact that she still cared about him enough to make a second confession isn't appealing at all. 

 

The way Kishi developed Team 7 is kind of the reason why we have one of the worst shipping wars. We have our reasons for shipping NS, but I see why one would support NH, in shallow reasons. One can find Sakura's treatment towards Naruto in comparison to Sasuke as unfair, and prefer NH because Hinata never hits or "uses" Naruto. Hinata also almost died for him twice. Sakura is still in love with the person who attempted to kill her three times. It's shallow, but it's a understandable reason. 

 

A lot of people like the tsundere trope, but it's rare to find that trope used with a love triangle (+Hinata) similar to Naruto.

 

The way Kishi made most of his characters (excluding main) too sympathetic or included unnecessary plot-lines made people root for different characters and their happiness/ support them more rather than the main cast. One would see Sakura's tsundere personality as annoying compared to Hinata and vice versa. He also focused too much on SNS having a strong bond rather than the reason in why their bond existed (his reason was too loose) and neglected Sakura's struggles. People see Sakura as spoiled because we don't have a backstory on Sakura while they see Hinata/Neji as survivors from their abusive clan, because that's what we were given extra by SP. 

 

I feel like based on how they are presented, people will make their judgement. People aren't going to like Sakura's treatment of Naruto if her character is still suck between him or the person who tried to kill her when it some to who will she save first.    

[Nostradamus]

Sakura was hated because she was in Hinata's way. Simple as that.

[Bail o' Lies]

Sakura was hated because she was in Hinata's way. Simple as that.

Pretty much. From what we've been hearing obsessive hinata love in the fanbase is more a western problem than in Japan. Sakura was and is well loved in Japan. And the reason why the west likes her more is because the girls imagine themselves as these shy girl that no one notice. Who deserve the man they always wanted handed to them. They simply see Sakura as the girl the guy they want girlfriend who has stolen their man, and should be punished for it. While guys think themselves nice guys who see Sakura as the those girls that wouldn't have sex with them despite them being such nice guys.

 

Edit: Neon you got to remember this. The fans that sent the letter tell kishimoto that they hated sakura weren't normal fans, they were nH fans. And the reason they sent those letters -that slowly force kishi to abandon Sakura- was that they were terrified of Sakura's confession to Naruto. Hinata had her confession 50 or so chapters before yet nothing came of it by that point. The arc that it happened in ended with Sakura hugging Naruto instead of hinata. So when they saw Sakura confess to Naruto they were terrified that their fantasy of hinata ending up with Naruto would come to an end. Because deep down they know Naruto has feeling for Sakura and if she showed him any romantic interest hinata wouldn't stand a chance. So they immediately declare Sakura's confession false as soon as they heard it and sent as many death threat letter to kishi as possible. Which were used by his editors to help them convince him to make hinata more important and by the end nH as the final pairing.

Edited by Bail o' Lies, 21 March 2016 - 09:50 PM.

[MangaReader]

Sakura was hated because she was in Hinata's way. Simple as that.

That became the thing after Hinata was introduced to the manga... Before that it was she bullied Naruto, she was rude to him, she didn't like his presence, she thought he was a troublemaker bent solely on ruining her life. They felt she was worthless in battle because she had no techniques. Unfortunately reading comprehension was lacking in the fandom, because it was meant to showcase Naruto's ability to change the people around him.

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

I think the reason why Sakura gets so much hate for her trope is because of how she acts around Sasuke. No one expects Sakura to treat Sasuke the same way as she acts around Naruto, but her devotion towards Sasuke had reached a point to where we needed a reason on why she cares for him so much, even if NS was canon in reverse. Before it was brushed off as a crush, but then, after the Five Kage Arc, Sasuke threatening the village and killing everyone, and the War Arc, the fact that she still cared about him enough to make a second confession isn't appealing at all. 

 

The way Kishi developed Team 7 is kind of the reason why we have one of the worst shipping wars. We have our reasons for shipping NS, but I see why one would support NH, in shallow reasons. One can find Sakura's treatment towards Naruto in comparison to Sasuke as unfair, and prefer NH because Hinata never hits or "uses" Naruto. Hinata also almost died for him twice. Sakura is still in love with the person who attempted to kill her three times. It's shallow, but it's a understandable reason. 

 

A lot of people like the tsundere trope, but it's rare to find that trope used with a love triangle (+Hinata) similar to Naruto.

 

The way Kishi made most of his characters (excluding main) too sympathetic or included unnecessary plot-lines made people root for different characters and their happiness/ support them more rather than the main cast. One would see Sakura's tsundere personality as annoying compared to Hinata and vice versa. He also focused too much on SNS having a strong bond rather than the reason in why their bond existed (his reason was too loose) and neglected Sakura's struggles. People see Sakura as spoiled because we don't have a backstory on Sakura while they see Hinata/Neji as survivors from their abusive clan, because that's what we were given extra by SP. 

 

I feel like based on how they are presented, people will make their judgement. People aren't going to like Sakura's treatment of Naruto if her character is still suck between him or the person who tried to kill her when it some to who will she save first.    

Eh, Hinata nearly died for herself due to lack of faith in Naruto despite what she says.

And the funny thing is that Hinata DOES "use" Naruto (still does even), but just not in the same sense as Sakura is made out to. Hinata used Naruto's own mental beatdowns by others (being told to give up, that he's a loser, and so on) as a way to leech off his "will to never give up" in order to make herself feel "inspired" so she can think she can do the same.

 

Pretty much. From what we've been hearing obsessive hinata love in the fanbase is more a western problem than in Japan. Sakura was and is well loved in Japan. And the reason why the west likes her more is because the girls imagine themselves as these shy girl that no one notice. Who deserve the man they always wanted handed to them. They simply see Sakura as the girl the guy they want girlfriend who has stolen their man, and should be punished for it. While guys think themselves nice guys who see Sakura as the those girls that wouldn't have sex with them despite them being such nice guys.

 

Edit: Neon you got to remember this. The fans that sent the letter tell kishimoto that they hated sakura weren't normal fans, they were nH fans. And the reason they sent those letters -that slowly force kishi to abandon Sakura- was that they were terrified of Sakura's confession to Naruto. Hinata had her confession 50 or so chapters before yet nothing came of it by that point. The arc that it happened in ended with Sakura hugging Naruto instead of hinata. So when they saw Sakura confess to Naruto they were terrified that their fantasy of hinata ending up with Naruto would come to an end. Because deep down they know Naruto has feeling for Sakura and if she showed him any romantic interest hinata wouldn't stand a chance. So they immediately declare Sakura's confession false as soon as they heard it and sent as many death threat letter to kishi as possible. Which were used by his editors to help them convince him to make hinata more important and by the end nH as the final pairing.

1.) Like I keep saying, I'm willing to bet that a bunch of the beta male otaku who claim to love how "shy" and "devoted" Hinata is to Naruto would find such a girl in real life to be just like how Naruto thought of her - dark, weird, and/or creepy. In terms of females who claim to "relate" to Hinata are also more than likely only doing so in the most loose of generalizations like being shy, but otherwise have little in common with her. I mean, i can relate to Hinata in that sense otherwise. Aside from being male and not female, believe it or not, I am quite shy outside the computer, but other than that, I have absolutely nothing in common with Hinata. I don't have any sort of abusive family or members who despise me for misplaced reasons, I don't stalk any females I may find attractive and/or inspirational and if they happen to be in a relationship, I wouldn't think them "stolen from me", I don't stutter or faint when talking to people, and I certainly would not go throwing my life away for a childish crush on someone I know virtually nothing about besides what I may have stumbled across finding out about.

 

If I see or hear of someone who does do a bunch of those things, then I would advise them to seek serious psychiatric help and Hinata would be no different.


2.) Sadly, when the confession and hand holding scenes were shown, I initially believed it really was simply Kishimoto throwing those rabid fans a bone to distract them so he can get to the real developed pairing...
 

 

That became the thing after Hinata was introduced to the manga... Before that it was she bullied Naruto, she was rude to him, she didn't like his presence, she thought he was a troublemaker bent solely on ruining her life. They felt she was worthless in battle because she had no techniques. Unfortunately reading comprehension was lacking in the fandom, because it was meant to showcase Naruto's ability to change the people around him.

Which only goes to show how much they completely ignored the manga.

And being "worthless" may have been true initially (due to her lack of dedication to training and Kakashi not being much help in that regard either), the fact that she, as far as we know, came from a strictly civilian family with no shinobi experience at all, is really what also prompted Hiruzen to mention how Sakura may be the weakest of the team at the time, but that she also had great potential (possibly the greatest). It's because she really was a blank slate that could be developed in various ways. Let's face it, Sakura was the only blank slate among the rookies. Every other rookie in one way or another pretty much had their shinobi career path decided the day they were born, which usually involved them simply carrying on their clan's traditional techniques and fighting styles and using them similarly to their predecessors. Even Lee's path was really predestined due to his whacked chakra system and even Naruto (being a chakra powerhouse using power techniques and such) due to being a Jinchuriki (though I'm sure he could have possibly gone down different paths if he actually had better teachers).

I's because Sakura was so "weak", "worthless", and had no big flashy techniques or clan connections and such in part one that her being so strong and skilled in early part two has that much more an impact compared to everyone else, including Naruto and Sasuke. Pretty much everyone else was "the same" but just merely better at using techniques that we've seen before, with the only new things simply being variants of those techniques. We may have seen Tsunade's chakra-enhanced strength before, but for someone like Sakura to have mastered it at her age while also performing such highly advanced medical techniques like making an antidote for Sasori's poison, a master of poison and poison-making, within minutes and saving Kankuro's life when, at any other time, would have died only shows just how far she had come once she did have a sensei who took her training very seriously. (Sasuke's performance was also obviously far better with Orochimaru making sure he was strong, which only further reflects just how poorly Jiraiya trained Naruto by comparison to either of the other two.)

[Liu bie]

I glad and proud that I have 2 years without watch the Last and not to  see the series completely.

[Nostradamus]

@Neon Small correction. Hinata didn't almost die for Naruto, she nearly died herself. Nothing Hinata has ever done was for Naruto or anyone else. It has always been about herself. What she wants. And this is instantly noticeable not just from her actions throughout the manga but also in what the NH fans consider the greatest moment in the manga, her confession. Her entire confession is all about herself.

And on the other side you have Sakura's confession towards Naruto. The only thing one must do is to look at both confession and the answer to which of the two girls really loves Naruto, becomes apparent.

[Bail o' Lies]

Eh, Hinata nearly died for herself due to lack of faith in Naruto despite what she says.

And the funny thing is that Hinata DOES "use" Naruto (still does even), but just not in the same sense as Sakura is made out to. Hinata used Naruto's own mental beatdowns by others (being told to give up, that he's a loser, and so on) as a way to leech off his "will to never give up" in order to make herself feel "inspired" so she can think she can do the same.

Yep. Here a problem with hinata's feeling for Naruto. With her confession in the manga originally and what I thought/hoped for years was. That hinata only notice and started started developing feeling for Naruto very recently by the start of the manga. Because it was better that way. But the anime, the last and the fans wanted hinata to be in-love with him from the very start, and to be obsessively in love with him for years.

 

They thought it would better because that means that she loved him all along. The problem with that is it means since Naruto had no one before the start of the manga. That means that Hinata despite being "in love with Naruto". Left him completely alone to like you said to leech off Naruto's determination to inspire herself. Shyness can work as an excuse for the short term, and if she wasn't in love with him from the start you can also say she was conflicted about her feeling she didn't fully understand. But after years of apparently being in love with him and even after confessing to him still leaving him alone for two years after the war. There is no excuse.

 

1.) Like I keep saying, I'm willing to bet that a bunch of the beta male otaku who claim to love how "shy" and "devoted" Hinata is to Naruto would find such a girl in real life to be just like how Naruto thought of her - dark, weird, and/or creepy. In terms of females who claim to "relate" to Hinata are also more than likely only doing so in the most loose of generalizations like being shy, but otherwise have little in common with her. I mean, i can relate to Hinata in that sense otherwise. Aside from being male and not female, believe it or not, I am quite shy outside the computer, but other than that, I have absolutely nothing in common with Hinata. I don't have any sort of abusive family or members who despise me for misplaced reasons, I don't stalk any females I may find attractive and/or inspirational and if they happen to be in a relationship, I wouldn't think them "stolen from me", I don't stutter or faint when talking to people, and I certainly would not go throwing my life away for a childish crush on someone I know virtually nothing about besides what I may have stumbled across finding out about.

 

If I see or hear of someone who does do a bunch of those things, then I would advise them to seek serious psychiatric help and Hinata would be no different.

2.) Sadly, when the confession and hand holding scenes were shown, I initially believed it really was simply Kishimoto throwing those rabid fans a bone to distract them so he can get to the real developed pairing...

2) The Confession was probably something his new editors convinced him to do. Which was then countered with the Hug and then the confession among other thing. Including Kushina saying that naruto should try to find a girl like her instead of one of those weird ones. The hand holding probably was to appease those rabid fans that were sending him those letters. That was counter by Sakura's speech and Minato asking if she was Naruto girlfriend, Naruto saying more or less, Minato saying Sakura reminding him of his wife, and him asking her to take care of Naruto.

 

1) The problem is that they are entitled brats. We think that Sakura and Naruto should have ended up together because they would have made a great couple, and that was the story was clearly aiming for anyway. They believe that Hinata deserves Naruto because she such as perfect girl and her backstory is so sad, and that Naruto deserves an obedient wife like Hinata not a "bossy kitten" like Sakura because he's an underdog with a sad background.

Which only goes to show how much they completely ignored the manga.

And being "worthless" may have been true initially (due to her lack of dedication to training and Kakashi not being much help in that regard either), the fact that she, as far as we know, came from a strictly civilian family with no shinobi experience at all, is really what also prompted Hiruzen to mention how Sakura may be the weakest of the team at the time, but that she also had great potential (possibly the greatest). It's because she really was a blank slate that could be developed in various ways. Let's face it, Sakura was the only blank slate among the rookies. Every other rookie in one way or another pretty much had their shinobi career path decided the day they were born, which usually involved them simply carrying on their clan's traditional techniques and fighting styles and using them similarly to their predecessors. Even Lee's path was really predestined due to his whacked chakra system and even Naruto (being a chakra powerhouse using power techniques and such) due to being a Jinchuriki (though I'm sure he could have possibly gone down different paths if he actually had better teachers).

I's because Sakura was so "weak", "worthless", and had no big flashy techniques or clan connections and such in part one that her being so strong and skilled in early part two has that much more an impact compared to everyone else, including Naruto and Sasuke. Pretty much everyone else was "the same" but just merely better at using techniques that we've seen before, with the only new things simply being variants of those techniques. We may have seen Tsunade's chakra-enhanced strength before, but for someone like Sakura to have mastered it at her age while also performing such highly advanced medical techniques like making an antidote for Sasori's poison, a master of poison and poison-making, within minutes and saving Kankuro's life when, at any other time, would have died only shows just how far she had come once she did have a sensei who took her training very seriously. (Sasuke's performance was also obviously far better with Orochimaru making sure he was strong, which only further reflects just how poorly Jiraiya trained Naruto by comparison to either of the other two.)

Sakura did have a good story and character development going on. Most people started to warm up to her because of those things. But you have a negative first impression and you be surprised how much people care about the superficial in everything.

Edited by Bail o' Lies, 22 March 2016 - 06:03 AM.

[Yyubie]

But according to PRO ENDING fans, we are the faulty one because we read the manga wrong

And i have to admit, sometimes i wonder it myself .... did i really read the manga wrong?? God only knows what the answer is .....

[Bail o' Lies]

But according to PRO ENDING fans, we are the faulty one because we read the manga wrong

And i have to admit, sometimes i wonder it myself .... did i really read the manga wrong?? God only knows what the answer is .....

No, you didn't read the manga wrong. If you did. Why even from the most neutral perspective does chapter 700 feel like a failure instead of a success? I'm not talking about the entire manga. I'm just talking look at the chapter on it's own. Naruto is a terrible father that ignores his family and tells his son endure it and if you're lonely because i'm not around the village is your family. Sasuke is not around to raise Salad which leads her to feeling a connection with bolt. And so on. Why would kishi if this is what he always wanted write his ending like that? Why not make it the happiest ending possible to the point it's completely saccharine?

Edited by Bail o' Lies, 22 March 2016 - 10:39 AM.

[NeonRanger]

The point I'm trying to make is that Kishi complied to the Sakura haters while outside forces (SP, CC2) threw Hinata a bone here and there to spike up Hinata fans. Before Sakura haters acknowledged the Sasori fight; now, they only laugh at this because look where she end up. The only thing we had before the War Arc was the Sasori fight. Kishi made it clear that he can write women if he tried. What happen to Sakura is that Kishi simply started hating her too just like any other anti.

 

People were warming up to Sakura but for some reason first impression was everything. And instead of ignoring it or proving haters wrong, Kishi just have them more fuel. Even some anti-Sakura fans were surprised with 693, and showed sympathy for Sakura in Gaiden.

 

I already know about the confession being selfish, but tell that to a NH fan. Not only that but both confessions (S and H) were kitten. Only Sakura's confession was genuine, but it was used in a kitten arc that only damaged her character because no proper conclusion. The confession would have been fine if Sasuke for once isn't mentioned but he was, then Naruto became all about Sasuke and it damaged the POAL because of Sasuke. This was just as bad as Naruto hyperventilating because of Sasuke. It makes you not surprised by the amount of SNS shippers in the fandom. And I don't like most SNS shippers because there are just as much Sasuke apologists then SS.

[Bail o' Lies]

I don't think Kishi grew to hate Sakura. As much as it was he felt he was forced to give up on her because his editors and those letters gave him the impression she was too hated to be the heroine. He still tried to make her likable. To try to win over the fans that hated her till very close to the end. But was still forced to give her up and go with hinata by the end. Also he based Sakura a lot off his wife by part two. That going to affect how he views her. And I don't think Sakura failure caused him to suddenly start hating his wife. The reason he kept trying with Sakura for so long was because she was based off his wife.

 

SS people are girls that imagine themselves having sex with Sasuke. So they do care enough about their insert (Sakura) to at least feel sad about her sorry state in the gaiden. Then again they were mainly concerned about whether or not those two had sex. SNS on the other hand. Are people that are complete obsessed with Sasuke and just use Naruto. So it can be two hot guys having sex. So they think Sasuke perfect and everything he does is perfect and so on.

Edited by Bail o' Lies, 23 March 2016 - 05:38 AM.