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November 5, 2014 had to really be something in the Kishimoto Household


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#21 Gravenimage

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Posted 24 August 2017 - 01:54 PM

If I was Kishi's wife I would have divorce his ass a long time ago.


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#22 BlackShirtGuy

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Posted 24 August 2017 - 02:27 PM

Bottomline of all this beign: NH wasn't planned from the start.

I mean, if it was I don't think Kishi's wife would've have reacted the way she did, she would be more dissapointed than angry, yeah you could argue that perhaps Kishi didn't told the ending beforehand to his own family but considered how much he LOVES to talk about pairings (as we see in his interviews) and defended Sakura's character pre-ending, I would find it odd that the conversation with her wife about NS didn't came up and Kishi said something else than what he's been saying since the manga ending. Didn't he said his wife helped him with developing Minato and Kushina, and then came off saying that was all a red  herring?  That's a dead giveaway  that something DID indeed happened.

Analyzer: ThAt'S  cOnSpIrAcY tHeOrYiNg... 
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“There are many types of monsters in this world, monsters who will not show themselves and who cause trouble. Monsters who abduct children, monsters who devour dreams, monsters who suck blood, and, monsters who always tell lies. Lying monsters are a real nuisance, they are much more cunning than other monsters. They pose as humans, even though they have no understanding of the human heart. They eat, even though they've never experienced hunger. They study even though the have no interest in academics. They seek friendship even though they do not know how to love. If I were to encounter such a monster, I would likely be eaten by it, because in truth, I am that monster.”   -L. Lawliet

 

#23 ThroughWithLove

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Posted 24 August 2017 - 02:47 PM

 

Or maybe it's not a conspiracy theory and it was as they said it was.

 

Or maybe, just maybe, it's not a conspiracy theory and that this is the hundred and umpteenth example of a plot line that got abandoned in this manga after being introduced. Maybe, just maybe, Kishimoto and Studio Pierott are much like every other studio and production company on the planet and are aware of successful concepts like promotion and puffery and, like every other studio and production company, aren't above stretching the truth to greater hype up and coming products (i.e. similar to Marvel touting that X character is DEAD forever and that things will NEVER be the same for the 1000th time :lmao:). Maybe, just maybe, Kishimoto is like the rest of us and is a flawed human being who is simply trying to make a living. Maybe, just maybe, the author intended to have the character similar to himself get with the character similar to his wife. Maybe, just maybe, we don't see Hinata much throughout the manga because the author didn't have any long term plans on what to do with her character. Maybe (and I realize this one is a huge stretch, but bare with me . . .), just maybe, the author wasn't actively setting the tone for NaruHina as he wrote the Zabuza arc.  Bare in mind, these are all just maybes. Maybe.  :chuckle:


Edited by ThroughWithLove, 24 August 2017 - 02:50 PM.

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#24 ThroughWithLove

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Posted 24 August 2017 - 03:26 PM

 

 

Neither one of these work well in their foundations because 1: Kishimoto says it was planned, 2: You see it in the second major arc, 3: @ThroughwithLove, The Essay Author uses a specific quote to set up his context of what he works with, and demonstrate show it equates that quote's meaning, before illustrating his other points. 4: @Blackshirt, yes, you are theorizing again. 

 

To make your arguments work, you have to 1: Selectively ignore parts of the manga that go against what you are saying. 2: Selectively Ignore the Author's words that go against what you are saying. 3: Ignore any post manga material that further cements an explanation for those who didn't get it. 4: Interpret things from their original meaning into the "correct" meaning. 

 

Everything you've said here simply disregards everything I've said without any attempt at justification. 

 

1. Authors/Studios/Production Companies lie. Quite frequently at that. Am I believe to some DC comics writer when he assures me that X character is going to stay dead forever? Should I have believed the writers of Code Geass when they assured me that the main character's sister, Nunnally, was dead only to reveal that she was alive four episodes later? Should I have believed Kishimoto when he assured me that the next stage of the manga was going to be "Kakashi's year?" Perhaps these writers have a bridge to sell me as well. Just because something is said in an interview does not mean that we should examine it in a vacuum. And in our case, even if we do look at it in a vacuum, terms like middle and early don't mean the same thing, so we run into credibility issues no matter what.

 

2. According to you perhaps, but as we can see from our various conversations, no one else here is willing to substitute headcanon (i.e. Naruto has loved Hinata all along) with actual events and statements.

 

3. The author makes statements like this:

 

  • "The first one, and the one I now hold up as legitimately the first real sign NaruHina would be canon, at least once NaruHina was shown to be even a thing, is the scene with Haku. I posted this earlier."
  • "Essentially, Haku’s line more or less foreshadows exactly what Hinata is: “You said you wanted to become the best Ninja in your village and have everyone acknowledge you. Now, if someone who acknowledged you from the bottom of your heart appeared, wouldn’t that someone become the most important person to you?” I have heard dissent on this, namely that others could fit this. However, both the wording and the fact only one character fits it so soon after it is uttered leads me to mark this really as a truly important moment for Naruto and Hinata’s relationship."
And I'm glad we agree that these kinds of statements are nonsense (with you simply disputing their existence instead), but it doesn't alter the fact the essays you recommend we read to better understand the manga engage in this kind of reasoning. Suggesting that the Zabuza arc was meant and designed to foreshadow NaruHina is perhaps the most biased pairing goggles suggestion I've ever seen. If that's your idea of "selectively ignoring parts of the manga", perhaps you're the one who is thinking in terms of conspiracy theories. Just a thought.

Edited by ThroughWithLove, 24 August 2017 - 03:29 PM.

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#25 lupina

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Posted 24 August 2017 - 03:42 PM

The first one who aknowledged Naruto from the bottom of his heart ... wasn't that Konohamaru?


Edited by lupina, 24 August 2017 - 03:44 PM.

"We live in a world that is so quick to convince us to ignore our feelings. Feeling stressed? Get a massage. Feeling angry? Go to the bar with your friends and blow off steam. Feeling lonely? Meet someone in cyberspace and have a conversation on the computer. Depressed? Take a pill. Anxiety? Take 2 pills. Feeling happy? Well, by George, don’t talk about that because no one likes a bragger. Same with being sad, no one likes a Debbie Downer. But, heaven FORBID, that you actually TALK about your feelings and process them in a healthy way."
 
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#26 sushi.

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Posted 24 August 2017 - 03:47 PM

The first one who aknowledged Naruto from the bottom of his heart ... wasn't that Konohamaru?

Or Iruka. Not sure but we don't know Hinata's spot since she was silent about it. And that is very significant because when fighting Gaara Naruto remembers those who acknowledged him and Hinata isn't even there.

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#27 ThroughWithLove

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Posted 24 August 2017 - 03:55 PM

If headcanon essays are what we need to be looking at, here is a good one: http://heronite.live....com/11107.html

 

That one is full of headcanon (and frankly bias, which I don't intend as offense to its author) too, but it nonetheless makes for a good read. :yes:


Edited by ThroughWithLove, 24 August 2017 - 03:56 PM.

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#28 lupina

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Posted 24 August 2017 - 04:14 PM

The authors' Argument also fits for NS.

 

Correct me if I am wrong - but Narutos' goal was to earn Sasukes aknowledgement, right? Sasuke was the most important Person in Narutos life, despite him not aknowledging Naruto, right?

That would contradict what Haku said to Naruto completly, speaking of consistency ...


Edited by lupina, 24 August 2017 - 04:15 PM.

"We live in a world that is so quick to convince us to ignore our feelings. Feeling stressed? Get a massage. Feeling angry? Go to the bar with your friends and blow off steam. Feeling lonely? Meet someone in cyberspace and have a conversation on the computer. Depressed? Take a pill. Anxiety? Take 2 pills. Feeling happy? Well, by George, don’t talk about that because no one likes a bragger. Same with being sad, no one likes a Debbie Downer. But, heaven FORBID, that you actually TALK about your feelings and process them in a healthy way."
 
- Amy Cassidy

#29 ThroughWithLove

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Posted 24 August 2017 - 04:46 PM

Personally I would not point to the Zabuza Arc, however, the author's argument fits, shipping goggles or not. They demonstrate that the conditions set forth met the characters requirement as fact, and then from that basis of fact form an opinion. If this was the sole scene they used it would be ineffective. But the author moves on to further chart the course.

 

 

The author is wearing rose tinted shipping goggles if he's actually going to insist that the Zabuza arc was setting the tone for NaruHina based on Haku's words. Words that apply to a number of people when we see Naruto flashback to this during his fight with Gaara (one of whom is NOT Hinata). I think that's silly and I'm glad we at least agree on that. And of course it's important that Naruto's eventual love interest be someone who acknowledges them, but there was never anything to exclude Sakura from being such a candidate after chapter 3.

 


 

For your course, you have to say the author is lying. This is already problematic. You defend that they lie all the time, as a way to add a fact, but this is problematic too, as Kishi is rather consistent with the point of his words. Throwing out the interviews, going along with this, you are now saying NS was the plan. But the manga demonstratedly sinks it in the middle, and at other points. Ignoring this matches up with suggested timeframes of the interview, we look at the beginning. But considering the essay does a good job of establishing the beginning's course, ignoring the Zabuza elements even, what is there to establish this in the beginning, particularly considering early Sakura's thoughts?

 

I've heard your "Kishi is consistent" arguments before and have never found them persuasive. I don't believe middle and early mean the same thing. And I especially don't believe that a character you've openly acknowledged as the heroine can ever merely be a "Kiba level character." That's a gross misrepresentation of how the manga was presented. And I'm not sure I can agree NS gets demonstratedly (sic) sunk in the middle, given all of the following scenes with Kushina (which I'm supposed to believe are red herrings based on a litany of arguments after the fact). When I see inconsistencies like this, what is so problematic about thinking the author is lying?

 

And I have a number of problems with your cited essays, but I cited the Zabuza portions to as a means of symbolizing my overall problem with them. If you're looking for something that fleshes out your fandom, it's a good read and I give kudos to that guy for putting so much thought and time into writing those essays in a very creative fashion. If, on the other hand, you're looking for an objective analysis of the manga, you should look elsewhere. He makes leaps and jumps that you can't reach without a thick pair of pairing goggles. The essay I cited (and I know I'm going to get a lot of hate for this, but it's not my intention and I give Mizura ample kudos for taking the time to write it) does the exact same thing. However, if you're an NS fan, it makes for a good read all the same. :yes:

 

 

I.E., going back to the interview, if you are deeming parts dishonest, but selectively use others, you probably shouldn't use them at all, because authors "lie all the time". Do you see the problem with that stance? Your position falls apart with it, but the point of the essay does not.

 

Not at all. I see no problem with my stance and would repeat what I said earlier in this thread: I examine things in their totality. When I look at the totality of the circumstances for these interviews and the manga in general, I come to the conclusion that the author had a lot of plot lines he intended to delve upon initially but abandoned them at a later point for whatever reason. When we look upon all the evidence, the possibility and intention of NS at one point is a very consistent theme.

 

When we apply occam's razor, we reach this conclusion: The simplest explanation for all the evidence (interviews included) is that the author did not spend proportionally more time giving hints and nods to Sakura over Hinata for the purposes of some grand and masterful shakespearean red herring scheme and that he at one point had intended to have the character similar to himself eventually marry the character similar to his wife. The simplest explanation as to why the post-series interviews are inconsistent is because he's not telling the truth, he wants to promote the followup series as much as possible and is aware of how important the canon pairings are to a large number of readers. In other words, Kishimoto is just like most of the people in his industry. Pure. Simple. Straightforward.

 

 

That said, I'm not sure if I like part one any pairing that much, though obviously preferential NS over SS (Too angsty) as per the head cannon, mostly because they're 12 and NS was pretty shallow at first. (Part two NS is different, and the extraction of One Tails Arc was the first episodes I saw before going to read the manga, so obvious bias to part two).  

 

I disagree. In my eyes, ever since chapter 3, I saw NS as a framing device to enable readers to see the real Naruto (which Sakura does slowly over time) as well tell an interesting female coming of age story for Sakura. In other words, good storytelling. In my eyes, it wasn't about shipping or pairings. If that were the case, I probably would've picked something outright crazy, deviant and off-the cuff like NaruTsu. :lmao:

 

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If Kishi wanted to go the "shallow crush" route, he should have just made Sakura attractive (no forehead issues) and simply have Naruto fall head over heels for her due to her looks. That way, it's actually shallow and makes Hinata the all-the-more promising prospect upon being introduced.


Edited by ThroughWithLove, 24 August 2017 - 05:45 PM.

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#30 Qia

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Posted 24 August 2017 - 06:57 PM

I only have one thing to say about all of this. 

 

Me: "Your momma is so ugly she made One Direction go another direction."

Analyzer probably: "Actually, the group mutually decided to disband." 

tenor.gif


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#31 gamma

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Posted 24 August 2017 - 07:26 PM

I only have one thing to say about all of this. 

 

Me: "Your momma is so ugly she made One Direction go another direction."

Analyzer probably: "Actually, the group mutually decided to disband." 

tenor.gif

 

Lmfao, this is a win


Edited by gamma, 24 August 2017 - 07:28 PM.


#32 ThroughWithLove

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Posted 24 August 2017 - 08:57 PM

 

 

Sakura doesn't fit at chapter 3. She doesn't fit even in the Chuunin Exams, or much later. In the Chuunin Exams, she calls his dream impossible. The Chuunin Exams showed a great growth of those who acknowledged Naruto, Sakura included, but it does not fit the quote well. 

 

Lets dispense with the pairing goggles. I have no problem admitting that Hinata fits just fine ideally given that she acknowledges Naruto. All the same, Sakura slowly starts to as well from chapter 3 onwards upon getting told off by Sasuke. Trying to interpret what she said during the chuunin exams as a negative outlook on Naruto is as biased of an interpretation of that scene as you can get. She says the dream is impossible during the chuunin exams and says it stupid during the war arc. So if I am to accept your interpretation, she never believed in Naruto, which is demonstrably false. Her word choice is plainly presented as ironic given her actions are contrary to their meaning. What we have from you is an utter disregard for context.

 

 

 

While I would not use it as development, or a moment, it is an opinion with foundation, because at the time it is uttered, and what occurs afterwards, the pieces fit into place that the opinion cannot be said to be factual wrong either. 

 

It's one of those things (I assume we're talking about the Zabuza stuff by the way; would prefer you quote directly point for point . . .  :yes: ) that you can try to interpret regardless of what the author intended. To illustrate my point, this is an excellent yet classic example. Here, I don't believe that's what the author intended with the Zabuza arc and would point to the flashbacks Naruto had during his bout with Gaara as ample indication. Even if indirectly, there were a million different ways Hinata could've been squeezed into that. Hell, no need to even have Sakura be the one who is being crushed. Put Hinata there instead and we have ourselves some very solid NH development from Naruto and also credence to this notion that Naruto has unconsciously loved her all along.

 

 

 

Taking in context language barriers, it's very consistent that he says he planned it early on, thought of NS, but kept with NH, and decided on this in the middle. Remove it altogether, he still had decided on NH. I.E, the gist of the point is that he chose NH. No conspiracy editors told him to make the ending at the last minute NH. I.E., last minute change arguments fall flat. That the sinking of NS occurs around the middle is telling. He did consider NS at one point, we can both agree on that. But he decided to keep to his plan, or remove that if you wish, he said "No", and you have thus the False Confession. Your argument works so long as you ignore that sinking, as many choose to do, thus their failing I think, to understand the ending. 

 

 

Even if you want to dismiss the middle/early dispute as a result of language barriers (which, I don't see how you can as the two terms are in no way similar; if I go see The Dark Knight in theaters and I get to the movie during the part where the Joker gets captured, am I early?), the fact that he would ever say something along the lines that the proclaimed heroine character was in reality just a Kiba level character is a gross and indefensible misrepresentation of the manga. Once you start questioning why the author would make that kind of misrepresentation, my conclusions are inescapable. That's no conspiracy theory. That's just standard business. Don't believe me? See my examples in other works. If you're gonna throw around the conspiracy theory label, perhaps you can defend each and every instance of this activity throughout this profession. No? Then reductio ad absurdum.

 

Two words that are contextually the same are planned and decided. You can decide to take one story route at one point and go a different route at another. The two terms are mutually inclusive. So I don't really buy the distinction you're trying to get at. 

 

Also notably, Kishimoto married many years after Sakura's creation, which puts a hole in the theory that Sakura was created after her.

 

Hardly. We have no idea how long he had known his wife prior to 2003, but based on his wife's reaction, it's pretty clear she saw enough similarities between  Naruto/Sakura and Masashi/Herself to get the distinct impression that he was writing about them. And based on him being able to joke about her being modeled after Hinata (who we know was a concept character prior to the series' creation), I'd say they've been together since before 1999. :lmao:

 

 

 

I believe your error is seeing Chapter 3 as this framework for this larger narrative coming of age story for Sakura. The story really isn't about . . .

 

 

Let me stop you there. It's not an error to desire good storytelling. I told you why I was interested in NS, not what actually ended up happening. And I certainly don't see the manga in the fashion I wanted it to progress. And that's not just on account of the lost potential that was inherent in NS, but a great deal of other things ranging from the dumbing down of the fights (going from the high speed chess matches we got in the Zabuza arc to the rasengan spam we have by the end of the series) to the wasted potential of characters like of antagonists such as Orochimaru, Kabuto, Danzo, Itachi and Sasuke. So yes, big disappointments all around. And all a result of not planning ahead.

 

 

 

Lastly, the two crushes introduced in the chapter are shallow. Naruto introduces Sakura as a pretty girl that I like. She's pretty, and he wants to beat Sasuke. These two attributes fit in chapter 3. I don't think it even needs to be about someone else being a more promising prospect. Naruto chose her.

 

Nah, you're going with the retcon revisionist history version presented in the last; never had anything to do with wanting to beat Sasuke. I've shown you why that's false before. Feel free to continue at any time. And of course it needs to be about someone else being a more promising prospect. The idea is to illustrate Naruto's own coming of age as he goes from chasing girls for their looks to legitimately falling in love. That would be a good way to bring things full circle were the manga written as I described in the previous post.. Problem is that it wasn't.

 

 

 

Qia's remark is funny, mind, and I have probably pushed this away from serious waters enough, though that it is believed that NS was some introduced element that was abandoned is faulty, and that it was made into his own relationship also faulty, considering Sakura was created four years before he had his wife. 

 

 

I hear yah. Just the other day, I was talking to my dad about how he met my mom. And he said something like this:

 

"Well, I was on my way to work when I saw this pretty girl pumping gas at the gas station. I immediately got in my car, drove 100 mph to the nearest jewelry store, bought a wedding ring, drove right back to the gas station just as she was about to leave, knocked on her car door, got down on knee and asked for her hand in marriage. And fortunately, rather than dismiss me as a complete and total psychopath, she agreed. I then took out a big $50,000 same day loan from the bank, pulled some strings with the boys down at the catering company, pulled some strings with the girls down at the wedding dress shop and had a big wedding in my backyard all in time to watch Monday night football!" :lmao:


Edited by ThroughWithLove, 24 August 2017 - 09:40 PM.

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#33 ThroughWithLove

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Posted 25 August 2017 - 08:38 PM

Quoting with Green Text at points I am responding to. Direct Quote by Quote, slightly! 

 

 

Sounds good! But the easiest way to quote, IMO, is to simply hit the quote button on a post, delete everything but the part you're responding to, respond and then rinse/repeat for the next part. Of course, whichever way you prefer!  :yes:

 

 

 

 

Except the context of the two scenes are different. There has been zero argument that Sakura does not care about Naruto, she demonstratively does. But she does not fully acknowledge him as of the Chuunin Exams, that's growing, nor understand him, which is why she does raise her hand. Equating the two words with their separate contexts is the error here, rather than any disregard. But more specifically, the reason why Sakura fits is Sakura had already been met, and doe not fit the foreshadow aspect. 

 

The context of the two scenes are one in the same; she is helping Naruto both times. Why should we NOT interpret the CPR scene during the war arc as Sakura "not fully acknowledging him?" For the Chuunin exams, you cite Sakura's words , so what's the exact difference? Tell us the precise reason because I frankly don't see the difference.

 

I honestly don't see what difference Sakura having already been met really makes. The point is that she comes to acknowledge Naruto over time. What's more, Sakura ends up suiting Haku's words even further in light of what motivated Naruto to release all of his chakra, summon Gamabunta as well as score the finishing blow against Gaara.

 

 

The Author is saying he didn't see Sakura as that important. This is the author's point of view, of how -he- viewed character importance. It's not even a misrepresentation, because Naruto is the driving character, the protagonist. No, your conclusions are not inescapable. Instead of looking into why the execution of the manga fits that word, you are looking at why the author is wrong or lying. I.E., you are looking for a conspiracy that fits your modum, rather than use the outlined modum as a way to show how, for example, that this sort of view caused overshadowing of Sakura's role. 

 

Analyzer, if you want to try and demonstrate how Sakura is a "Kiba level character", you're welcome to, but you're basically going to be playing mental gymnastics (of which I'll take great pleasure in exploiting) as I hammer you on the author specifically referring to Sakura as the heroine, the author specifically going out of his way to try and make Sakura more popular, the plot significance Sakura has had in comparison to the other "Kiba level characters" and a quick rundown of the significance the other "Kiba level characters" had. Sakura is plainly not a Kiba level character. Be my guest, but it's gonna get ugly real fast. :no:

 

 

 

No, planned and decided are not contextually the same. For example, in my rough draft, I planned to have my two protagonists escape through the sewers. But in my final draft, I decided to have them instead escape through something else. Planned is pre-moment, I.E., planned from the beginning, decision is -the- moment, I.E., the middle. Make sense? 

 

Nah, makes no sense! The fallacy here is that NH did not happen in the early stages or the manga or the middle. It happened in the movie and it happened in chapter 700. So by your logic, the early and middle parts of Naruto are pre-moment, therefore not when Kishimoto decided; the early and middle parts showcase what Kishimoto planned. See what I did there?

 

By the way, I plan to go to the convenience store after I get done typing this post.

By the way, I've decided to go to the convenience store after I get done typing this post.

 

See what I did here? You can use the terms interchangeably. For example, you are more than capable of planning out what's going to be in your final draft. You're equally capable of deciding what's going to be in your rough draft. The point is that you are making a conscious and knowing decision about a following course of action.

 

 

The fact that Kishimoto is mentioning the entire wife reaction as a joke/point of humor makes the above weak, all we know for sure is that she liked NS. Nowhere is it suggested she saw enough similiarities between Naruto/Sakura and Mashashi/Herself. We don't know for sure how long they've been together, but that these two were suggested by editors and not Kishimoto makes it so that even if the guess was right, puts a hole in the theory. 

 

Nah, the joke/humor here is that even his wife was upset with him about the pairings, not that Kishimoto made up this random and crazy story for laughs. :lmao:

 

The suggestion that his wife saw similarities between herself and Sakura can be found in Kishimoto trying to assure his wife that she was based on Hinata instead. We also have circumstantial evidence affirming this suggestion, such as Eichiro Oda commenting that Kishi's wife is just like Sakura at their wedding.

 

The fact that Sasuke and Sakura were suggested by editors is irrelevant. This is consistent with Kishi not planning far ahead. To my understanding, the editor suggested that Naruto get a rival and a love interest.

 

 

 
I tackled this one already, and chapter 3 demonstratively confirms with this. Essentially your counter point is why didn't he choose anyone else, and it's simple, she's also pretty. This doesn't detract or go against anything the Last establishes, this answers your question on why it is her specifically. Chapter 3 demonstratively shows that Naruto is competing, disguising as Sasuke, and tieing him up. 

 

I've addressed these counter-arguments here.

 

1) Naruto legitimately likes Sakura and finds out why during his encounter with her: naruto-1564875.jpg

 

 

2) The reason Naruto disguised himself as Sasuke and tied him up in the first place had nothing to do with wanting to beat Sasuke. Naruto wanted to know how Sakura felt about him. You are asking us to plainly disregard the statements provided to us on panel . . . for reasons?

naruto-1564879.jpg

 

 

 

Technically naruto did come from age from shallow love to legitimately falling in love, so I don't see the issue. Also, that this is a shonen and Kishimoto did not want to do romance makes why the above story suggestion of yours did not happen. Nor do I believe this was needed to be done in full circle, he did do this: He had a family. It could have been with Sakura, I don't think it would have taken anything away to have done that way. But Kishimoto chose different, and I respect his choice. 

 

Saying "Kishimoto did not want to do romance" hardly constitutes an excuse since I'm not suggesting that he up and establish the romance at any point prior to the ending. All I'm saying is that he make Sakura attractive, make that the only reason Naruto is chasing after her, introduce Hinata and then give Hinata all the moments Sakura got (such as being captured by Gaara) in order to be emphasize the point and give legitimacy to the way you perceive NH. Naruto goes from being immature (chasing girls for their looks) to truly understanding love (loving Hinata for who she is).

 

 

One thing is for sure: If the author wants to write about a character having shallow love, the way to do this is NOT to make the two manga pages I posted above. Don't create pages like these either:

 

 

naruto-1961829.jpg

naruto-1961831.jpg

Or these:

naruto-412519.jpg

tumblr_inline_n4rqygySeX1sqtfpl.jpg

 

And don't do stuff like this either:

 

Narutochart.jpgoriginal.jpg

 

Tou_no_ShoGrafik.jpg

And especially don't do stuff like this:

 

 

Kushina-suggest.jpg

 

 

Always respect chekov's gun. Be honest with your readers and don't take them for granted. :thumb:


Edited by ThroughWithLove, 25 August 2017 - 08:41 PM.

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#34 rocci

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Posted 25 August 2017 - 10:25 PM

Sakura is not important in chapter3? Nice joke.

Want to know another joke?

Hinata sakurafication.

#35 Gravenimage

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Posted 26 August 2017 - 01:12 AM

The third Hokage was the first person to acknowledge Naruto then it was Iruka, followed by team seven and Konohamaru. So where does Hinata fit in all of this?


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#36 Qia

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Posted 26 August 2017 - 01:23 AM

The third Hokage was the first person to acknowledge Naruto then it was Iruka, followed by team seven and Konohamaru. So where does Hinata fit in all of this?

Actually wasn't Iruka first? Hence why Naruto thought the world of him? I think the 3rd was just responsible for looking after him.  


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#37 lupina

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Posted 26 August 2017 - 12:59 PM

 

 

And Hinata Sakurification isn't even funny, or true. 

 

Uhm ... 

 

- Childhood (Bullying)

- Outfit Style 

- Personality (Scary Mom)


"We live in a world that is so quick to convince us to ignore our feelings. Feeling stressed? Get a massage. Feeling angry? Go to the bar with your friends and blow off steam. Feeling lonely? Meet someone in cyberspace and have a conversation on the computer. Depressed? Take a pill. Anxiety? Take 2 pills. Feeling happy? Well, by George, don’t talk about that because no one likes a bragger. Same with being sad, no one likes a Debbie Downer. But, heaven FORBID, that you actually TALK about your feelings and process them in a healthy way."
 
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#38 ThroughWithLove

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Posted 26 August 2017 - 02:42 PM

 
Because one context Naruto was not -in- mortal peril, and the other was Sakura not believing that Naruto would make it through the question, so she helps by raising her hand, which would push Naruto -away- from his dream, though in context, allow him to preserve it. I.E., she did not believe he could become Hokage and continue. -That- is the difference. The Chuunin Exams were a credible step forward, and I think that point is being missed. 

 

 

I dunno . . . this sounds like mental gymnastics. According to Ibiki, were Naruto to fail in answering the question, he would never be able to become a chuunin. Sakura, specifically not wanting to see Naruto's dream crushed, raises her hand. Where, in that thought process, is the part where she does not believe he can ever become Hokage? What she doesn't believe in is his ability to answer the final question, which based on what she knows about him, was an accurate and intelligent belief. Were there to be a real final question, Naruto would not have been able to answer it as we see with the nine preceding questions. What we see is a lack of faith in his academic skills as opposed to his ability to become Hokage.

 

Moreover, when we really think about it, we see that this argument is self-defeating. If we follow this logic to its conclusion, then we can reach conclusions like Hinata not believing in him either, hence why she offers to help him cheat and potentially get him expelled. Mental gymanstics no doubt, but what's good for the goose is good for the gander, no? 

 

 

 
True, though the lack of immediate fitting is what constitutes one more so than the other.

 

Would disagree from a writing perspective. Sakura comes with the possibility of character development, which is preferable IMO over someone who has already reached the conclusion without any plot advancement. :thumb:

 

 

 
I think the error here is how you are taking "Kiba level character". In Kishimoto's opinion she was not that important in regards to the overall story, that was Naruto's place, and it circled Naruto. That's all there is to it, really. 

 

Heheh. So you're going with the "It's Kishimoto opinion" route instead of actually doing the mental gymnastics you need to do in order to defend what Kishi said. Smarter I guess, but inconsequential since we're dealing with an opinion that is objectively false. We have one of two conclusions to reach: Either Kishimoto does not know what a heroine is (and consequently also just randomly made her and the other members of team 7 plot integral enough not to realize that they are far and away from Kiba level characters from any standpoint) or he's lying. Apply occam's razor. Bada bing. Bada boom. 

 

 

 
It doesn't matter if NH doesn't happen from our point of view at this point or another. In regards to the context of the quote, Kishimoto was set on, I.E., commited to NH in the middle, and thus delivered more and more points. It happened visibly to readers at the end, but that was his plan. I.E., a writer can make a decision and commit to it, even if it's full revela is not at the end. They aren't the same, as deciding something is committing, while a plan can more or less change. Not sure how to make this more clear. 

 

Oh but it matters a great deal as you specifically phrased planned as being pre-moment and decided as being at-the-moment. And as far as I can the tell, the only at-the-moment part Kishi delves into is chapter 700. If, instead, we go with this "visibility" argument, the terms are rendered effectively interchangeable anyway as he is deciding and planning things that have yet to happen regardless. Initially, Kishimoto decided Naruto was going to wear a pair of goggles over his head at all times. We see this as he draws the goggles on Naruto's head in the first chapter. Afterwards, Kishimoto decided to stop drawing the goggles after realizing they were a pain to draw. See what I did there? This decided/planned distinction just doesn't hold. One is perfectly capable of changing their mind. Initially, Kishimoto decided that the Akatsuki rings were going to be of significance at some point, hence why he took the time to draw them and show Akatsuki members making sure to obtain them. All at-the-moment thinking. Later, Kishimoto decided to drop the entire idea because he thought we needed to hear more about the damn Uchiha bloodline.

 

 

 

Oda commented that his wife looks like Sakura, yes. But that Sakura came four years before his marriage and was an Editor's creation still hurts this theory a lot, even if you throw out the fact that they may have met or dated before her insertion. I.E, it can't be proven. The Love Interest part is not in the quote, but rival, yes. 

 

Nah, I think him being able to assure his wife that she was modeled after a character created in concept prior to the series' publishing is proof positive that he knew his wife prior to not only 2003, but 1999 as well. Burden of proof shifts to you. :lmao:

 

Sasuke and Sakura were editor's suggestions, not creations. And by suggestion, simply "add a rival and a love interest." So it's weak and misleading considering that Kishimoto still created both characters right down to thought process and personality.

 

I'm unfamiliar with the actual quote tbh, just random googlings and tumblrBS. Feel free to post it in its totality.

 

 

 

​Naruto got Sasuke out of the way and wanted to see if she acknowledged/cared. It's competitive, or rather, the competitive theory fits. 

 

In other words, had nothing to do with Sasuke initially. Sasuke was simply someone she was willing to talk to. If it were a competitive issue, he would've skipped right to the part of making Sasuke look bad from the getgo. Then we have all the later moments. Why the heck is Naruto troubled about telling Sakura how he feels about her when he's talking to Sai? Nah, this is what the "competitive" explanation is trying to do:

 

iStock_000019474446Medium.jpg

 

 

 
​Not sure if the above Kushina quote is relevant to anything. Possibilities were teased throughout, but within the manga itself, what happened makes sense. It's fair to be frustrated about it due to all of the above though. 

 

It's relevant in the sense of trying to portray a character whose love for another girl is shallow. I'm saying DON'T include ANY of the scenes I mentioned. And if you do include them, make sure they served an alternate purpose beyond desperately trying to keep readers from dropping your series and reading something else. Don't throw stuff in without any intention of following up on it (even if your plans end up changing in the future). Otherwise, you're wasting the readers' time. Which is in a nutshell . . . bad writing. Chekov's gun my friend. Chekov's gun. To respect it means to respect your reader's time. :yes:  


Edited by ThroughWithLove, 26 August 2017 - 02:48 PM.

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#39 lupina

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Posted 26 August 2017 - 03:28 PM

1. We never kew about Hinatas' bullying until "The Last", what makes it quite obvious why this was addet. To have a heart-wrenching scene (developement) between two characters in their childhood who are supposed to get married later on. Besides that, the reason why Hinata was supposed to get bullied was absolutely ridiculus. No one ever made a comment about the uncommon look on Hinatas eyes. And all of sudden, she was bullied because of that in her childhood? Come on. 

 

2. Before "The Last", Hinata always had a comfortable sporty style outfit. In "The Last", she suddenly wears hot pants, stockings, boots, a large stomach belt to highlight her "feminine parts" and a no sleeve shirt, similar to the Style Sakura always wore since Shippuden (and "The Last"). It it obvious that they were trying to make her more visually appealing as a love interest.

 

 

3. Again, we have never seen such behaviour of Hinata in the past. Never. It was addet later on, like alomost everything else. For obvious reasons. 


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#40 ThroughWithLove

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Posted 26 August 2017 - 08:57 PM

 

​It is ultimately the verbiage. Stupid and impossible do not equate, and with the larger context at play, and knowing that her acknowledgement is still developing, as is their friendship. The latter part is irrelevant, because the entire set-up was a test of resolve, I.E., he was asking it. Sakura is seeking to aid though, and keep him from not being a ninja anymore, but Naruto does not want that. Thus his adverse reaction before she can finish.

 

​The Hinata issue is different, she sees him in trouble and offers to help. They contrast almost,  help to push forward with risk, and aid that pushes back but seemingly preserves his status. I would not equate them, but at the same time, I will stress that I would also not lower Sakura's either, she -is- trying to help, regardless of her belief, and she does care as a friend. 

 

Both terms are used in the same fashion which is to contrast their meaning with what is actually being shown and described to us on screen. It is ironic for Sakura to continually call Naruto an idiot only to simultaneously show him care and affection. It is a way of saying that contrary to her rough and often times harsh demeanor, that is not how she really feels towards Naruto. We see this later on with a conversation with Sai where he makes the following observation:

 

naruto-5639.jpg

 

The Hinata example is no different and your alleged contrast is superficial. The point is that they are both trying to help Naruto. It is only when we take a thick layer of rose tinted pairing goggles that we reach different conclusions. If Hinata truly believed that Naruto could become Hokage, she wouldn't have helped him cheat and risked getting kicked out of the exam, right? She would have sat there confidently knowing that he had the test in the bag. And just like with Sakura, Naruto doesn't want Hinata's aid either. Come to think of it, where are we even getting the idea that Hinata believes he can become hokage? If we're really gonna go with your logic here, I don't even see where it's said. And if you're simply gonna say "she acknowledges him", I can point to you where it's said that Sakura acknowledges Naruto at this point in the series.

 

 

 

It has nothing to do with that. I.E., to Kishimoto, Sakura was just as important to him in his handling as Kiba. It is a perception thing. Sure, she's more powerful, and is next to Naruto more often and in plots, but that does not differentiate her importance in them, I.E., as a supporting character to Naruto ultimately. And this does hold true, as she supports Naruto. That is Kishimoot's view point, because he is moving forward with a sole driver. In greater analytical context we can bring up that she is the main heroine, but it does not conflict with the fact of Naruto being the primary driver, and all other characters supporting him. 

 

Okay, so then just to be clear here, it is in your view that every character not named Naruto is a Kiba level character, correct? C'mon, do you really want to defend this? :lmao:

 

 

 Yes, planned is pre-moment, you are preparing something to happen later. Decide is in-moment. So in your example, in chapter one, Naruto has goggles. Kishimoto decides they don't work, stops drawing them.

 

 

Kishimoto planned to stop drawing Goggles on Naruto after chapter one is different, it is not -in- moment. They may be used interchangeably, perhaps because pre-moment and in-the-moment can be extremely close and indistinctive, but that does not make that interchangeable use the correct diction, if we are talking strict grammaticism. 

 

So just to be clear here, one cannot make decisions about things prior to the moment they occur? As in, Kishimoto never decided to stop drawing the goggles on Naruto? He never decided to stop mentioning the Akatsuki rings? These were never actually decisions he made, right?

 

Again, we look to occam's razor. Either Kishimoto was, for reasons unknown, engaging in these rigorous and enigmatic word games as he was phrasing these interviews . . . or the interviews are simply inconsistent.

 

 

 

That he was saying this as a joke makes that not quite work (I.E., a clear marker of laughs), makes this quite not work. 

 

We already get the joke. It's "Haha, not only are there fans pissed about ending, but my own wife is pissed too! Hahaha, very funny." That's the joke; that's the punchline. The joke is not "Hahaha, I've got this random and crazy made-up anectdote I'd like to tell you! Watch as I make stuff up out of thin air! Hahaha, very funny!"

 

 

 But it's still very clear he is trying to get her attention from Sasuke. He wants to know her feelings to see if he has her acknowledgement. Competitive still fits.

 

The later moments are more or less handled by the Fake Confession, I'll leave it at that. 

 

Well of course he wants to get her attention from Sasuke. Can't exactly have a girlfriend who is in love with someone else. The issue is whether he'd still be interested in her if not for Sasuke. And based on what we see, the answer is a resounding yes. She's pretty (in his eyes anyway) and they've got something in common (wanting to be acknowledged). Has nothing to do with Sasuke or else the joke would extend not just to him wanting to ask Sakura on dates, but all sorts of girls. We'd see a Naruto trying to put the moves on Ino and every other Sasuke fangirl out there. So no, it doesn't fit.

 

The later moments are not handled by the Fake Confession as the Fake Confessions concerns Sakura's feelings, not Naruto's. The Sai flashback is never resolved, referenced, nor mentioned again. For the remainder of the manga, it's as if it never happened. Bad writing.

 

 

 

Perhaps the reader is putting too much into her words. That she fell for essentially the "Weird" guy, to summarize her first reaction, makes the following of these words the error. That Naruto tells his father before he goes he -hasn't- found someone yet I think is really telling of things. Not Chekov's gun, my friend. It is not a waste of time to entertain possibility, especially when the truth is well outlined.  

 

 

 

She fell for the guy who not only saved her in a princess carrying fashion, but also admired a physical trait about her that she was teased and mocked for having. Ring a bell? Add in all the other scenes and materials and I don't really believe the readers are at fault for drawing their conclusions. :ermm:

 

Naruto does not tell his father he hasn't found anyone yet, but by this point, NH is indisputably the end game anyway given that the movie is already in the final stages of production, so it's moot.

 

It's chekovs gun because each of the scenes I cited serve no purpose in the grand scheme of things. Remove them from the story and nothing changes (which is why they fail even if you try to classify them all as red herrings). In other words, waste of time. You say "well it's entertaining the possibility." Chekov doesn't care about "entertaining a possibility" and if that's not evident upon an initial reading, additionally readings will make that abundantly clear. These scenes are not some grand Shakespearean headfake  that has actual narrative function despite its misleading nature. This is a case of "Why the hell are these scenes even here?"  :headscratch:


Edited by ThroughWithLove, 26 August 2017 - 09:06 PM.

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