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November 5, 2014 had to really be something in the Kishimoto Household


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#21 T XD

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Posted 23 August 2017 - 10:27 AM

Considering this leads up to a joke, I wouldn't take that part too seriously.

You still see that Sakura wasn't modeled after his wife ?
 



#22 Konoha'sCrimsonFox

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Posted 23 August 2017 - 10:42 AM

You still see that Sakura wasn't modeled after his wife ?
 

 

Obviously Pro Enders either choose to ignore it or don't know about Oda made a comment to Kishi at Kishi's wedding that his wife looks like Sakura.


Edited by Konoha'sCrimsonFox, 23 August 2017 - 10:43 AM.

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#23 T XD

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Posted 23 August 2017 - 11:07 AM

Obviously Pro Enders either choose to ignore it or don't know about Oda made a comment to Kishi at Kishi's wedding that his wife looks like Sakura.

Unfortunately, Analyzer-sensei will not accept that in her class when she finishes her break in an hour.



#24 Analyzer

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Posted 23 August 2017 - 01:20 PM

 

Obviously Pro Enders either choose to ignore it or don't know about Oda made a comment to Kishi at Kishi's wedding that his wife looks like Sakura.

 

Unfortunately, Analyzer-sensei will not accept that in her class when she finishes her break in an hour.

 

I think that's cute actually. 



#25 ThroughWithLove

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Posted 23 August 2017 - 06:27 PM

Since we're all in full agreement (including Analyzer) that Kishimoto modeled Sakura after his wife, the question to be asked is why he would make that character design decision in a story where the main character is modeled after himself. And no matter how much denial certain people would like to exhibit, there is only one compelling answer. :thumb:


Edited by ThroughWithLove, 23 August 2017 - 06:53 PM.

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#26 Analyzer

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Posted 23 August 2017 - 07:09 PM

Certain person will entertain:

 

I personally would not make any jumps like that. Real Life != Fiction, and while it certainly inspires it, the variables are so largely different, and Naruto is not an exact copy of Kishimoto, naturally. But that's my opinion. (Entertaining the OP: As he knew the ending for a time, wouldn't this have happened way earlier?)

 

That said, an NS ending with that sort of beginning planned out as the two of them more or less inspired and partially molded into these characters is a romantic idea that would have been neat to see come true. Plus, as many here can agree, it's the more liked bond of the ones Naruto formed. 


Edited by Analyzer, 23 August 2017 - 07:14 PM.


#27 ThroughWithLove

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Posted 23 August 2017 - 07:16 PM

This "exact copy" phrasing is a misnomer. Obviously, Kishimoto can't do the rasengan, run up trees, or make 1000 copies of himself. And obviously he doesn't have a homoerotic brotherly relationship with anyone. At least to our knowledge. :confused:  Naruto, however at his core, is inspired by Kishimoto's own life experiences. 


Edited by ThroughWithLove, 23 August 2017 - 07:16 PM.

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#28 Analyzer

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Posted 23 August 2017 - 07:25 PM

I was not referencing Naruto's fantasy abilities for clarification, though your statement is true both for Naruto the story and aspects of the character, it's common as I said for writers to draw from personal experience, I just would not make too much of it. I recall the piece of the Eight Gates with Madara was partially influenced by his father's death at the time, wasn't it?


Edited by Analyzer, 23 August 2017 - 07:30 PM.


#29 sushi.

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Posted 23 August 2017 - 07:33 PM

This "exact copy" phrasing is a misnomer. Obviously, Kishimoto can't do the rasengan, run up trees, or make 1000 copies of himself. And obviously he doesn't have a homoerotic brotherly relationship with anyone. At least to our knowledge. :confused:  Naruto, however at his core, is inspired by Kishimoto's own life experiences. 

Yeah it doesn't really matter Kishi's intentions, comparing Sakura to his wife is not good business for his so called planned since the beginning pairing. He mocked the endgame ship, to put it bluntly. You can't beat around that. If he really felt at peace with NH he would've said Sakura was like his high school crush. In his response he says his wife isn't like Hinata because his wife is a strong character so it sounds like Hinata is weak too.

While I don't think Sakura was based on his wife as a whole he must have based certain attributes on her.

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#30 ThroughWithLove

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Posted 23 August 2017 - 08:59 PM

Yeah it doesn't really matter Kishi's intentions, comparing Sakura to his wife is not good business for his so called planned since the beginning pairing. He mocked the endgame ship, to put it bluntly. You can't beat around that. If he really felt at peace with NH he would've said Sakura was like his high school crush. In his response he says his wife isn't like Hinata because his wife is a strong character so it sounds like Hinata is weak too.

While I don't think Sakura was based on his wife as a whole he must have based certain attributes on her.

 

For his wife to get upset about the issue and for him to assure her that his wife was modeled after Hinata, I think his wife certainly saw enough attributes and similarities in the characters to say WTF!  :lmao: And in light of that, I think it's pretty obvious where this story was headed prior to the certain point (Kage Summit being the earliest and the war arc being the latest).

 

 

 

I was not referencing Naruto's fantasy abilities for clarification, though your statement is true both for Naruto the story and aspects of the character, it's common as I said for writers to draw from personal experience, I just would not make too much of it. I recall the piece of the Eight Gates with Madara was partially influenced by his father's death at the time, wasn't it?

 

I interpret things in their totality. And Kishimoto's anectdote as well as his wife's reaction is one of many pieces of the NS puzzle that was eventually pushed aside.


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#31 Konoha'sCrimsonFox

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Posted 24 August 2017 - 12:45 AM

What was obvious is that Shuiesha, SP and half of Kishi's staff claimed that NH was meant to be from the beginning. Any logic behind is only plausible if Sakura's character was not designed be an importance to the story nor to Naruto's life. Sakura was one of those characters that was so post to be consider a fodder and easily replace because she was like any other villager while Hinata was the only person of Naruto's generation that cared for him. It seems like Hinata was promised to SP and Shueisha to be the one to take the main female roll. Things went awry when Kishi had other ideas when he started imputing himself into the story. He mentioned it like two times in all the interviews that Naruto and Sasuke's relationship is like that of Kishi and his brother Seishi's relationship. The post chapter 700 he made it clear that he was like Naruto while Seishi is like Sasuke.

 

 I believe Kishi was so post to pull the plug on Sakura's character is the second bench scene instead of chapter 693. Sasuke either takes her with him or she abandons her village to pursue Sasuke and becomes a rogue kunoichi and that's the end of her character. Then Hinata fills in the roll to become the heroine at the start of Shippuden. Now all these are tied up with the many contradicting interviews. NH was planned from the beginning, the middle blah blah blah. All his blabbering was just keypoints where he should have pull Sakura's plug and develop NH. And now you get the point why Kishi is so attached to Team 7 and never went with Hinata. Unlike Sakura, he has no attachment to Hinata and that's why he failed to lived up to Hinata's fandom's expectations. Even Sakura got more panels than Hinata in the Naruto Gaiden. Pity isn't it.


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#32 Analyzer

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Posted 24 August 2017 - 12:51 PM

What was obvious is that Shuiesha, SP and half of Kishi's staff claimed that NH was meant to be from the beginning. Any logic behind is only plausible if Sakura's character was not designed be an importance to the story nor to Naruto's life. Sakura was one of those characters that was so post to be consider a fodder and easily replace because she was like any other villager while Hinata was the only person of Naruto's generation that cared for him. It seems like Hinata was promised to SP and Shueisha to be the one to take the main female roll. Things went awry when Kishi had other ideas when he started imputing himself into the story. He mentioned it like two times in all the interviews that Naruto and Sasuke's relationship is like that of Kishi and his brother Seishi's relationship. The post chapter 700 he made it clear that he was like Naruto while Seishi is like Sasuke.

 

 I believe Kishi was so post to pull the plug on Sakura's character is the second bench scene instead of chapter 693. Sasuke either takes her with him or she abandons her village to pursue Sasuke and becomes a rogue kunoichi and that's the end of her character. Then Hinata fills in the roll to become the heroine at the start of Shippuden. Now all these are tied up with the many contradicting interviews. NH was planned from the beginning, the middle blah blah blah. All his blabbering was just keypoints where he should have pull Sakura's plug and develop NH. And now you get the point why Kishi is so attached to Team 7 and never went with Hinata. Unlike Sakura, he has no attachment to Hinata and that's why he failed to lived up to Hinata's fandom's expectations. Even Sakura got more panels than Hinata in the Naruto Gaiden. Pity isn't it.

 

Or maybe it's not a conspiracy theory and it was as they said it was.

 

You know that's a much easier point of view to work with than the other one. The interviews more or less line up, particularly after you take in account translating a language barrier. 

 

SP is irrelevant as they have nothing to do with the manga's beginnings, that they are mentioned as part of this conspiracy is odd. Sakura being important to Naruto's character or story is irrelevant to another character being the love-interest, as not all strong platonic relationships between men and women must be romantic.

 

Why were they supposed to pull the plug on Sakura's character at the bench scene? While that development would be nice, the character would still exist in the manga, because Sasuke's re-introductions would have to deal with her too. 

 

And obviously Hinata would have less panels than Sakura in Gaiden, it wasn't about her. This is inverted in the Boruto movie. 

 

Sorry, I just don't see this theory holding much water. 



#33 Gravenimage

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Posted 24 August 2017 - 01:54 PM

If I was Kishi's wife I would have divorce his ass a long time ago.


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#34 BlackShirtGuy

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Posted 24 August 2017 - 02:27 PM

Bottomline of all this beign: NH wasn't planned from the start.

I mean, if it was I don't think Kishi's wife would've have reacted the way she did, she would be more dissapointed than angry, yeah you could argue that perhaps Kishi didn't told the ending beforehand to his own family but considered how much he LOVES to talk about pairings (as we see in his interviews) and defended Sakura's character pre-ending, I would find it odd that the conversation with her wife about NS didn't came up and Kishi said something else than what he's been saying since the manga ending. Didn't he said his wife helped him with developing Minato and Kushina, and then came off saying that was all a red  herring?  That's a dead giveaway  that something DID indeed happened.

Analyzer: ThAt'S  cOnSpIrAcY tHeOrYiNg... 
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“There are many types of monsters in this world, monsters who will not show themselves and who cause trouble. Monsters who abduct children, monsters who devour dreams, monsters who suck blood, and, monsters who always tell lies. Lying monsters are a real nuisance, they are much more cunning than other monsters. They pose as humans, even though they have no understanding of the human heart. They eat, even though they've never experienced hunger. They study even though the have no interest in academics. They seek friendship even though they do not know how to love. If I were to encounter such a monster, I would likely be eaten by it, because in truth, I am that monster.”   -L. Lawliet

 

#35 ThroughWithLove

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Posted 24 August 2017 - 02:47 PM

 

Or maybe it's not a conspiracy theory and it was as they said it was.

 

Or maybe, just maybe, it's not a conspiracy theory and that this is the hundred and umpteenth example of a plot line that got abandoned in this manga after being introduced. Maybe, just maybe, Kishimoto and Studio Pierott are much like every other studio and production company on the planet and are aware of successful concepts like promotion and puffery and, like every other studio and production company, aren't above stretching the truth to greater hype up and coming products (i.e. similar to Marvel touting that X character is DEAD forever and that things will NEVER be the same for the 1000th time :lmao:). Maybe, just maybe, Kishimoto is like the rest of us and is a flawed human being who is simply trying to make a living. Maybe, just maybe, the author intended to have the character similar to himself get with the character similar to his wife. Maybe, just maybe, we don't see Hinata much throughout the manga because the author didn't have any long term plans on what to do with her character. Maybe (and I realize this one is a huge stretch, but bare with me . . .), just maybe, the author wasn't actively setting the tone for NaruHina as he wrote the Zabuza arc.  Bare in mind, these are all just maybes. Maybe.  :chuckle:


Edited by ThroughWithLove, 24 August 2017 - 02:50 PM.

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#36 Analyzer

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Posted 24 August 2017 - 03:03 PM

 

Or maybe, just maybe, it's not a conspiracy theory and that this is the hundred and umpteenth example of a plot line that got abandoned in this manga after being introduced. Maybe, just maybe, Kishimoto and Studio Pierott are much like every other studio and production company on the planet and are aware of successful concepts like promotion and puffery and, like every other studio and production company, aren't above stretching the truth to greater hype up and coming products (i.e. similar to Marvel touting that X character is DEAD forever and that things will NEVER be the same for the 1000th time :lmao:). Maybe, just maybe, Kishimoto is like the rest of us and is a flawed human being who is simply trying to make a living. Maybe, just maybe, the author intended to have the character similar to himself get with the character similar to his wife. Maybe, just maybe, we don't see Hinata much throughout the manga because the author didn't have any long term plans on what to do with her character. Maybe (and I realize this one is a huge stretch, but bare with me . . .), just maybe, the author wasn't actively setting the tone for NaruHina as he wrote the Zabuza arc.  Bare in mind, these are all just maybes. Maybe.  :chuckle:

 

Bottomline of all this beign: NH wasn't planned from the start.

I mean, if it was I don't think Kishi's wife would've have reacted the way she did, she would be more dissapointed than angry, yeah you could argue that perhaps Kishi didn't told the ending beforehand to his own family but considered how much he LOVES to talk about pairings (as we see in his interviews) and defended Sakura's character pre-ending, I would find it odd that the conversation with her wife about NS didn't came up and Kishi said something else than what he's been saying since the manga ending. Didn't he said his wife helped him with developing Minato and Kushina, and then came off saying that was all a red  herring?  That's a dead giveaway  that something DID indeed happened.

Analyzer: ThAt'S  cOnSpIrAcY tHeOrYiNg... 
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Neither one of these work well in their foundations because 1: Kishimoto says it was planned, 2: You see it in the second major arc, 3: @ThroughwithLove, The Essay Author uses a specific quote to set up his context of what he works with, and demonstrate show it equates that quote's meaning, before illustrating his other points. 4: @Blackshirt, yes, you are theorizing again. 

 

To make your arguments work, you have to 1: Selectively ignore parts of the manga that go against what you are saying. 2: Selectively Ignore the Author's words that go against what you are saying. 3: Ignore any post manga material that further cements an explanation for those who didn't get it. 4: Interpret things from their original meaning into the "correct" meaning. 



#37 ThroughWithLove

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Posted 24 August 2017 - 03:26 PM

 

 

Neither one of these work well in their foundations because 1: Kishimoto says it was planned, 2: You see it in the second major arc, 3: @ThroughwithLove, The Essay Author uses a specific quote to set up his context of what he works with, and demonstrate show it equates that quote's meaning, before illustrating his other points. 4: @Blackshirt, yes, you are theorizing again. 

 

To make your arguments work, you have to 1: Selectively ignore parts of the manga that go against what you are saying. 2: Selectively Ignore the Author's words that go against what you are saying. 3: Ignore any post manga material that further cements an explanation for those who didn't get it. 4: Interpret things from their original meaning into the "correct" meaning. 

 

Everything you've said here simply disregards everything I've said without any attempt at justification. 

 

1. Authors/Studios/Production Companies lie. Quite frequently at that. Am I believe to some DC comics writer when he assures me that X character is going to stay dead forever? Should I have believed the writers of Code Geass when they assured me that the main character's sister, Nunnally, was dead only to reveal that she was alive four episodes later? Should I have believed Kishimoto when he assured me that the next stage of the manga was going to be "Kakashi's year?" Perhaps these writers have a bridge to sell me as well. Just because something is said in an interview does not mean that we should examine it in a vacuum. And in our case, even if we do look at it in a vacuum, terms like middle and early don't mean the same thing, so we run into credibility issues no matter what.

 

2. According to you perhaps, but as we can see from our various conversations, no one else here is willing to substitute headcanon (i.e. Naruto has loved Hinata all along) with actual events and statements.

 

3. The author makes statements like this:

 

  • "The first one, and the one I now hold up as legitimately the first real sign NaruHina would be canon, at least once NaruHina was shown to be even a thing, is the scene with Haku. I posted this earlier."
  • "Essentially, Haku’s line more or less foreshadows exactly what Hinata is: “You said you wanted to become the best Ninja in your village and have everyone acknowledge you. Now, if someone who acknowledged you from the bottom of your heart appeared, wouldn’t that someone become the most important person to you?” I have heard dissent on this, namely that others could fit this. However, both the wording and the fact only one character fits it so soon after it is uttered leads me to mark this really as a truly important moment for Naruto and Hinata’s relationship."
And I'm glad we agree that these kinds of statements are nonsense (with you simply disputing their existence instead), but it doesn't alter the fact the essays you recommend we read to better understand the manga engage in this kind of reasoning. Suggesting that the Zabuza arc was meant and designed to foreshadow NaruHina is perhaps the most biased pairing goggles suggestion I've ever seen. If that's your idea of "selectively ignoring parts of the manga", perhaps you're the one who is thinking in terms of conspiracy theories. Just a thought.

Edited by ThroughWithLove, 24 August 2017 - 03:29 PM.

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#38 lupina

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Posted 24 August 2017 - 03:42 PM

The first one who aknowledged Naruto from the bottom of his heart ... wasn't that Konohamaru?


Edited by lupina, 24 August 2017 - 03:44 PM.

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#39 sushi.

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Posted 24 August 2017 - 03:47 PM

The first one who aknowledged Naruto from the bottom of his heart ... wasn't that Konohamaru?

Or Iruka. Not sure but we don't know Hinata's spot since she was silent about it. And that is very significant because when fighting Gaara Naruto remembers those who acknowledged him and Hinata isn't even there.

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#40 ThroughWithLove

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Posted 24 August 2017 - 03:55 PM

If headcanon essays are what we need to be looking at, here is a good one: http://heronite.live....com/11107.html

 

That one is full of headcanon (and frankly bias, which I don't intend as offense to its author) too, but it nonetheless makes for a good read. :yes:


Edited by ThroughWithLove, 24 August 2017 - 03:56 PM.

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