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#1 HalfDemonInuyasha

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Posted 25 February 2019 - 10:21 PM

 

MSG/UC = Unicorn is pretty popular among casuals, so it makes sense to try and link them together. Kinda like how they tried to push  "Kira is just like Amuro" before the backlash against Destiny set in, with Kira being called out on being a naive, selt-righteous, hypocritical and a war monger in his own right in crossovers. Origin/G-Reco = Alpha and Omega of the UC timeline before the Moonlight Butterfly. Also, Char and Bellri can have a long debate about lolis vs. older sisters. Wing/Zeta =  Kamille is a terrorist who learns to keep his emotions in check, Heero is a terrorist who regains his emotions. 00/IBO = It's post Awakening Setsuna offering Mika, the flower that represents peace in his timeline. But Mika, in the 4th opening, is represented by the Japanese spider lily, a poisonous flower used to protect the dead from animals that is sometimes referred to as the hell flower.\

 

If anything MSG/UC is the weakest link in my opinion. But there is something interesting here, something that should give the pro-enders cause for concern. See the lack of SEED in all this stuff about the 40th? You know, despite SEED being incredibly popular back in it's heyday? Well, here's the deal. SEED wasn't beloved by the hardcore Gundam fanbase back then. and the Kira-wanking in Destiny only made matters worse. Gunpla, the franchise's main source of income, dropped 36% for Destiny because Gundam fans weren't supporting SEED while SEED fans didn't buy Gunpla. This is why they killed the Cosmic Era, and 00 was meant to win back Gundam fans as well as find non-SEED fans. 00 managed to outsell the Cosmic Era in terms of HG model kits according to old marketing materials for AGE.

 

Throw in the fact that Unicorn is now the Gundam for casuals, and you get why SEED isn't present.

 

Boruto has to compete against the likes of Black Clover and My Hero Academia in order to be one of the big shonen titles now, because those are the ones casual audiences are going for now. And the fan backlash has undoubtedly hurt Naruto's sales. I mean, the manga is the main source of the franchise's income and it has plummeted. What was it, 2 million copies of a volume sold their first week at the series' peak vs selling under 100k now? The name means nothing if future stories retroactively taint the old ones. It happened to something as big as SEED, so just because people are supporting the ending doesn't mean that the execs are happy with how things have played out.

I could see a slight Amuro comparison up until Kira got the first Freedom. After that, he was nothing like Amuro and just became as you / others described. Actually, when you think about it...he became pretty much what Naruto became to a degree (minus the war-monger part for Naruto). They both ended up coming down to, "Believe what I believe or I'll make you by force". Even Lacus noted their own hypocrisy during the last stretch of SEED - "We call for peace...but with weapons in our hands..." - She could see that what they were doing would not truly bring about peace because they were trying to force the Earth Alliance and ZAFT to the bargaining table with metaphorical guns to their heads.

As for Gunplas, it also doesn't help that a vast majority of mobile suit designs in SEED Destiny were either just updated rehashes of SEED mobile suits (especially ones like Impulse / Strike, Legend / Providence, Strike Freedom / Freedom, and Infinite Justice / Justice) and so it might feel like you were just getting "the same thing". or they were, even worse, pretty blatant "ripoffs" of Universal Century mobile suits (ZAKU Warrior, GOUF Ignited, DOM Trooper, Savior Gundam, Murasame, Akatsuki Gundam Destroy Gundam, etc.). At least SEED tried to be little original and only paid homage to the Universal Century designs, like with the mono-eye sensors of most ZAFT mobile suits.

 

Eh, feels refreshing to talk about something else (though I suppose we COULD make a Gundam thread).

 

I really can't hate Wing, if ONLY because it was the one show that opened me to the world of anime (I was already into DragonballZ, but I didn't have the urge to explore; what can I say, I was 15 at the time). At first, Wing BLEW MY MIND. So you can imagine my surprise when exploring Gundam fansites, Wing was CONSISTENTLY named as the worst series (at this time the latest one was Turn A).

 

Anyway, I eventually explored other Gundam series, and upon watching some of Wing again...it really doesn't hold up. Inconsistent damage (grunt pilots a Mobile Suit, it gets blown to smithereens. Gundam pilot uses same mobile suit, can take a beating for a bit), sometimes overly philosophical, quite a few plotholes, vague origin of the Gundams, and even then I thought Wufei was a complete kitten.

I'd say it definitely picks up in the 2nd half, but then again I think most Gundam series' really shine in their second halves.

The exception being Seed Destiny. I personally thought the first half was awesome, but by the 2nd half it CRASHED AND BURNED.

 

In fact, with Seed Destiny, my experience with that series is eerily similar to mine with Naruto. Both started out promising, if you're invested you're convinced all the plot points are going somewhere, but by the end they just fall flat on their faces and betray what they were promising in the first place. I and many other fans never wanted to see another Gundam series at the time, but I think 00 brought many back ( I still remember the Jesus Yamato vs Allah F Seiei memes). Whether the Naruto franchise can do such a thing for me, well, I'm waiting. Not getting my hopes up though.

 

As Rules mentioned, both Fudaka and Kishimoto didn't have a strong sense of where they wanted to take their respective series and only added in certain elements because they thought they were popular genre tropes without understanding how to properly use them. The similarities are really astonishing. I also heard because his wife was the chief writer, Fudaka often gave her breaks and that's why the Cosmic Era has so many clip show episodes (on MAHQ he's called "Clip'em All" Fudaka as opposed to "Kill'em All" Tomino). If the illness was the factor that got in the way, then I do sympathize with them, but at that point Fudaka should have gotten a writer in better health. Also heard his wife was a big fan of KiraXLacus, and that's why they became a GaryStuXMarySue couple as time went on.

 

If only Kishimoto's wife had that same power over him.

 

Lesson that should be taken from both of these is that you NEVER create a story based on popular tropes; you make what you think is a good story THEN you add any tropes that you think will suit your needs. Do it like the two above and in the end it's going to derail everything.

Yeah, I don't necessarily "hate" Gundam Wing. I just never saw what was SO great about it to some people. To this day, there are people who say it's one of the best Gundam series. To me, it was all flash, but no substance. Similar to SEED / SEED Destiny, it took a crap ton of extra material outside of the anime series' to (try to) explain things (in regards to both characters and tech, but whose canonicity is questionable at best) that should have been in the anime series itself.

Most of the characters themselves were just boring more than anything. Some started out okay. I even liked Relena early on, especially when she took it upon herself to try to kill Lady Une in revenge for her (adopted) father's death. That made her seem badass, but then as soon as she learns about her real heritage and tries to live out the whole "total pacifism" thing and then is used like a tool by Trieze....ugh, she just went completely down the tubes. In the end, Noin is probably the only character I liked all the way through. Others either went down the tubes, barely went anywhere, if at all, or didn't get enough attention to have any sort of impact one way or the other. Wing was also one of the series with TWO infamous clip-show episodes (to which both SEED and SEED Destiny also did). The sequel manga, Gundam Wing: Frozen Teardrops, was also poorly received from what I've read. In the end, similar to SEED, I mostly just like some of the mobile suit designs and love the soundtrack (SEED Destiny - mostly just the soundtrack).

Also similar to Naruto, there was (at least initially) a lot of pairing-goggled fans who only cared about who looked good with someone else. When I ask people why they like Kira/Lacus so much even though there was no real romantic development between them, one of the first things they say is almost always, "Because they look so cute together". Just like with NHers, they can't seem to ever provide any real development from within the series itself, and what they do try to point out is stuff that is very easily explained / debunked..

"Kira hugged Lacus after saying her father died!"....yeah, I'm pretty sure most friends would do such a thing if their friend told them their father died and started crying on the spot, male or female.

"They were together for the two years between SEED and SEED Destiny." ....yeah, hiding as internationally wanted terrorists / criminals and in such a situation, it's probably better to stick together.. If they (more Kira since, as I said, Lacus at least acknowledged their hypocrisy) truly believed what they did was right, they would have been out there preaching to the masses, not hiding away.

"Lacus said she was fond of Kira after being picked by Athrun!"...yeah, "fond" does not automatically mean "romantically attracted to". She could have just as easily just seeing him as a kindred spirit due to their beliefs, which again, does not automatically equate to "romantically attracted to".

...and so on. Athrun and Cagalli at least felt semi-real, but then they went and broke them up in SEED Destiny for...reasons... and then forcing Athrun together with...Meyrin Hawke...while also forcing Shinn and Lunamaria Hawke together...it was pretty much just having Lunamaria getting with Shinn (even though she initially had a crush on Athrun) and then just giving Athrun the leftovers.
 

 

Destiny's infamous use of clip shows, recycling of animation and stock footage comes from the fact that it was far behind schedule. See, this is how TV in Japan works. You're effectively renting the timeslot in order to air your show from the broadcaster, and have a requirement to fill it up. If you fail to do so for whatever reason, you lose it. Since episodes are completed only a couple of weeks before airing., they'll do whatever they can to not fall behind schedule. Not to mention, it looks bad on the part of the director for failing to properly manage the show. This may be a reason why we don't see shows air 50 episodes continuously anymore, alongside changing business models and Japan's economy.

 

Destiny abused this and even in Japan it was considered a joke before the HD Remaster (but is still considered a joke, especially Athrun memes). Fukuda talked about this on twitter after his wife died, saying that he often butted heads with producers. One side wanted the show to stay on schedule, the other was fighting for better quality. Granted, Fukuda never specified which side he was on but either way he didn't realize how bad it looks on his part. If he was arguing for quality, than he failed and caused the show to go behind schedule. If he was arguing for schedule, than he didn't care about the quality of his show. He also defended his wife's writing, saying she could get a script out in a single day when properly inspired and that at times her scripts were accepted without revision. For those who don't know, most episode scripts go through 3-4 versions to iron out the details.

 

Not to mention some members of staff weren't happy with the scripts. One animation director posted on his blog (said post was removed, but it was something referenced on Morosawa's wikipedia page) said that while he liked Fukuda's "pitiful" production, that if Morosawa couldn't write than she shouldn't. That the story wasn't drawing people in, people did not get the feelings behind the love story, that she couldn't maintain tone or atmosphere, and that scripts were written to reuse scenes. We have Kenichi Suzumura, Shinn's VA, saying that Shinn's development was derailed and he did not end up the way he was originally supposed to. Shinn in early promos was called the hero, but then he was turned into the villain because he opposed Kira.

 

Destiny, like Naruto, shows that it doesn't matter how big you were. If you screw up big enough, fans will take offense. The worst SEED haters I know were, once upon a time, diehard SEED fans before Destiny. Now, SEED has an anti-fandom.

 

PS: I really get the impression 00 was meant to tackle Destiny's views by proxy. S1 is showing a far less idealized version of Kira and co.'s actions, the fact it's often called a deconstruction of Gundam shows how off they were from the rest of the franchise. S2 has the subtext of taking control of Gundam away from the genetically engineered clone of E.A. Ray and returning Gundam to the ideals of it's bald creator. The movie is a CCA-level Newtype miracle, completing 00's attempt to reconstruct Gundam for the modern age.

 

Yeah, I remember also seeing Shinn advertised as the new protagonist and the way it started, he certainly looked promising, especially given we were seeing someone with a completely different PoV from Kira, and even hated him because of the death of his own family. From what I heard, he was also flip-flopped because it was still a time where people were high on Kira and so replacing him with someone else just didn't sit well with them. Similar to how Yu-Gi-Oh! GX having Judai / Jaden as the new main character rather than Yugi just got an immediate negative reaction on reflex from a lot of Yu-Gi-Oh! Shadow Games / Duel Monsters fans ("It's YU-GI-Oh!, so why isn't YUGI the main character?!", "This is too light-hearted! Why isn't it darker?!" and idiotic crap like that). Today, people seem to have accepted Judai, but back then? Hoo boy...

Funny thing is that there already is an anti-SEED Destiny series in the form of Mobile Suit Gundam: The 08th MS Team. Shiro and Aina, two "star-crossed lovers" who meet and fall for each other after some battlefield encounters, try to work to get at least their immediate colleagues to resolve their fighting peacefully, even going as far as to not kill enemy soldiers as much as they could, only to be laughed out of the room (literally in Shiro's case) because of how naive and unrealistic the ideals were (as well as leaders on both sides just plain hating each other, were corrupt, etc.). However, unlike SEED / SEED Destiny, where things more or less "worked out" in the end, 08th MS Team had Shiro and Aina suffer consequences for their decisions (Aina having to help kill her now-psychotic, genocidal brother, and Shiro  near-court martialled but sent on a near-suicide mission for redemption, his squad-mates being made to watch him and, if it looked like he was going to betray, kill him, etc.), fail completely in the end and, like Kira and Lacus, are shown to be in hiding while most others thought they were dead, because otherwise they would no doubt have been arrested and executed for betrayal, desertion, giving aid and comfort to the enemy, and so on, and Shiro having lost a leg.

Nothing they did mattered in the long run. The One Year War continued for two more weeks (by the end of the series, we learn Operation Star One was beginning - the attack on Zeon space fortress Solomon and then A Baoa Qu the week after) and costing thousands of more lives, and outside of their immediate friends and such, no one has probably heard of them and what they did. What leaders on both sides who did probably just buried it. And nothing they did would have any impact on future conflicts and war.


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#2 RulesofNature

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Posted 26 February 2019 - 07:05 PM

This part struck a cord with me because it seems like this is all what anyone does in their stories nowadays. Instead of writing a story that makes sense from cause to effect, they instead just do things that they think will give them browning points with the fandoms.

This is what it feels like with RWBY nowadays. They just keep changing stuff and ruining characters for the sake of "because the fans wanted it that way." "The audience doesn't care how Blake and Yang end up together so long as they do. Hell, we will change Yang's entire personality and retcon her story if we need to."

Naruto, RWBY, Gundam series, Dragonball Super, and more....it is less about telling a story and more about showing an agenda, get fan praise, and making it look pretty. Now even Marvel and DC are doing it.

Where the hell did these writers come from?

 

I don't find this to be the case with the last two Gundam shows.

 

With G-Reco, Tomino didn't want the audience to follow a simple story. He wanted them to experience the show, and to really think about it. In the show, each faction has set up it's own little narrative. Their own story that establishes themselves as the good guys, all while turning a blind eye to the contradictions. Ameria will talk about obtaining resources in order to expand through war for the good of it's people, never thinking about the massive resources they've used to create their army. The Capital Army wants maintain the system because it maintained peace for over 1000 years, but fail to see how the system is now causing wars to break out because it's outdated. Mask goes on about being the victim of racism, but uses Bellri's heritage to turn his former friend (and even that is questionable, considering people did point out Mask got chummy with Bell to get close to Bellri's high ranking mom) into the ultimate bad guy in his headcanon. Everyone is so worked up in these scenarios that they're not willing to try and talk to each other to work things out, whereas the protagonists journey to learn about the world around them and gain people from every faction.

 

G-Reco makes sense, if you piece the story together. And considering how people online retreat to their echo chambers and reinforce their beliefs when confronted, there's a very relevant message here.

 

Then you have IBO, which completely trolls it's audience. The show preys upon their emotions in order to get them to support the protagonists, even though real world politics would paint them in a completely different light. Tekkadan would be seen as exploiting kids for the very same reasons the show makes them look good. Kudelia and Makanai would be seen as corrupt war criminals over the first season, Dort would be seen as an act of terrorism by the workers. Naze would also be seen as exploiting the Turbines, and McGillis fought to bring about social Darwinism, not democracy. But because of how the show played out, people ended up cheering for them in what I can only call ignorance. They don't realize just how messed up the show is under it's shonen paint job, they miss a lot of character development and implications (or gloss over those implications) because the story never called attention to them. Doesn't help either that due to the biased reporting, they don't know about most of the show's controversies, reception or supplimentary materials/interviews that establish that they weren't being told the legit story. They were being sold a story that made Tekkadan look more heroic than they actually were, and now we have guys who want another war to happen so the people they don't like can be killed.

 

Both these shows respected the audience's intelligence, having faith that they would be able to figure these things out. While IBO appeared to be pandering to the folks who wanted a gritty gundam with a protagonist who doesn't cry about killing and how awful war is, those folks are the ones most upset about the ending they were given. They were both, in a sense, stories about how dangerous mindlessly following what you're told is; G-Reco from an outsider's perspective trying to figure everything out, IBO from the inside of one of those narratives. So, I have difficulty equating them to something like Naruto in this matter.


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#3 HalfDemonInuyasha

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Posted 27 February 2019 - 01:06 AM

I also liked how G-Reco was ballsy enough to put the final nail in the coffin on the Newtype mythology that Zeon Deikun and Char kept pushing for (as mentioned before, later Universal Century stories post-Char's Counterattack / Unicorn, like F91 and Victory, saw a very sharp decline in Newtypes and Newtype involvement) - if all of humanity left Earth and lived in space, then all of mankind would eventually evolve into Newtypes and mankind will come to "truly understand" each other and it would lead to the end of wars and Earth could recover and such. But now you have those who have lived out near Venus for generations and while they may be naturally living longer than humans did before, it came at the cost of just ruining their bodies, turning them into shriveled husks essentially, forcing them to wear bio-mechanical suits to appear normal and they now sought to RETURN to Earth (Project Reconguista) because they were just miserable out in space.

IIRC, not sure if it was true or not, but I heard that G-Reco was originally meant by Tomino to be its own unique story with some obvious "Gundam" homages, but it was Bandai who convinced him to make it into another "Gundam" series and that's why, within the series itself anyway, there was only very loose connections between it and the Universal Century - most of it having to be told to the viewers rather than able to be truly shown (and something that the theatrical release will at least partially address).

And yeah, with IBO, I thought it seemed pretty obvious that Tekkadan, while they may have been the main characters, they were not exactly "good guys" either (especially after teaming up with someone like McGillis at the end). After they took over and started doing stuff, I was asking myself at points, "How is this any different than those who previous controlled them aside from prettier words?" The series purposely made their bosses (and other antagonists) much more obvious scumbags to make the founders of Tekkadan look a lot better by comparison, then by having them NOT act exactly the same as them, but rather more idealistic-sounding, it attempts to fool the audience into overlooking their actions rather than stop and really look at and analyze them. Sure, the antagonists were far from saints, but to also say that Tekkadan and its allies are completely innocent and everything they did wasn't their fault and was only done because of (insert reason) is only showing that you also ended up being blinded by the idealism.

It's similar to how dictators throughout history gathered and brainwashed supporters with pretty, idealistic speeches that made those people feel good and "superior" so when that dictator eventually begins committing some of the worst atrocities in history, even ones that go completely against what they themselves preached and even if they cause those same supporters to suffer as a result, those supporters not only ignore it, but try to justify it.


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#4 RulesofNature

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Posted 27 February 2019 - 04:53 PM

G-Reco is really the culmination of Tomino calling out the audience for missing the point of Newtypes. 0079 uses them to symbolize the hope that the next generation won't repeat the same mistakes as their elders and find new ways to avoid war. In Zeta and ZZ we see people focus on them being superior in combat through the tragic usage of Cyber Newtypes, even erasing their identities to pursue this ideal. Not to mention, how Newtypes themselves could fall into the same ways of thinking as the previous generations. Char's Counterattack saw Char himself give in exploit Newtypes for his own goals, but this was countered by Amuro's faith in humanity triggering a miracle. In F91, Newtypes are considered another way of saying someone is a natural pilot and in Victory we have an attempt by the villains to use Newtype powers to forcibly pacify the world to take over.

 

In Turn A, there was no Newtypes. Just people trying to solve the issues through dialogue and communication. We have Newtypes in G-Reco, but their powers don't bring about any real change. Instead, it's left debatable if Mashna even was one or did she just go insane from the death of her lover. Instead, the protagonists end the series striving to solve the issues through communicating like normal people.

 

The combat powers of a Newtype aren't what's important. This is one of the things SEED failed to understand about Gundam. Hell, I'd argue that Kira is closer to Char at the end of Destiny. His side believes that his side HAS to lead humanity onto the proper path, demonstrating his own lack of faith in humanity. He doesn't believe mankind will sort it's crap out without him and his friends showing them the right way. Ironic considering he's fighting something called the Destiny plan, but not so much when you remember that what he refers to as the Freedom is, in reality, the Strike Freedom. As in, to attack freedom itself. This is completely the opposite of what Amuro believed at the end of CCA, and in retrospect makes Kira look like the fallen hero far more than Shinn.

 

And yeah. G-Reco originally wasn't intended to be a Gundam series but Tomino was convinced to make it one. He actually said a couple of months ago he hopes people don't judge it as a Gundam series, and instead look at it on it's own merits.

 

One of the more interesting things I remember was as it aired, people were convinced McGillis would turn on Tekkadan and be the final boss. They knew he was the baddie, but when things went into the toilet and McGillis didn't betray them there was a bunch of support for him all of a sudden.


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#5 RulesofNature

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Posted 04 March 2019 - 10:19 PM

Funny thing is that there already is an anti-SEED Destiny series in the form of Mobile Suit Gundam: The 08th MS Team. Shiro and Aina, two "star-crossed lovers" who meet and fall for each other after some battlefield encounters, try to work to get at least their immediate colleagues to resolve their fighting peacefully, even going as far as to not kill enemy soldiers as much as they could, only to be laughed out of the room (literally in Shiro's case) because of how naive and unrealistic the ideals were (as well as leaders on both sides just plain hating each other, were corrupt, etc.). However, unlike SEED / SEED Destiny, where things more or less "worked out" in the end, 08th MS Team had Shiro and Aina suffer consequences for their decisions (Aina having to help kill her now-psychotic, genocidal brother, and Shiro  near-court martialled but sent on a near-suicide mission for redemption, his squad-mates being made to watch him and, if it looked like he was going to betray, kill him, etc.), fail completely in the end and, like Kira and Lacus, are shown to be in hiding while most others thought they were dead, because otherwise they would no doubt have been arrested and executed for betrayal, desertion, giving aid and comfort to the enemy, and so on, and Shiro having lost a leg.

Nothing they did mattered in the long run. The One Year War continued for two more weeks (by the end of the series, we learn Operation Star One was beginning - the attack on Zeon space fortress Solomon and then A Baoa Qu the week after) and costing thousands of more lives, and outside of their immediate friends and such, no one has probably heard of them and what they did. What leaders on both sides who did probably just buried it. And nothing they did would have any impact on future conflicts and war.

 

I wouldn't say it's just the 08th MS Team. UC had some pretty clear morals and ideals, ones that Fukuda did not understand whatsoever. 00, in it's first season, just highlights how off SEED's idea of peace ended up being. If the heroes resolve to go around, shooting at everyone in order to make them stop fighting, they're not acting in a peaceful manner. That's called terrorism, Kira being a terrorist is not a smear. It's fact.

 

So, it's not so much 00 is trying to be the anti-SEED. What it's doing is highlighting how SEED, underneath all appearances, is the anti-Gundam.


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#6 Bail o' Lies

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Posted 25 June 2019 - 09:21 AM

I read some of the the Johnny Ridden manga recently and there this nice scene on a Zeon sub.

 

Where the Captain go on about how after ten years after the war they were pretty much abandon by Zeon, left drifting in the Earth's oceans, after the EFF took care of the zeon remnants on the land they were at first left alone/ignored because they were no longer a threat, but eventually support by the Federation's Navy in order to justify their budget. He also goes about how him as well as a lot of Zeon solider during the one year war grew up listening to Zeon Deikun's speeches, decided to follow those ideas of Zeon during their youth, but with peace their is time for reflection and ultimately most just want to return home after the war. Also the remaining Zeon navy on Earth hope to finally have purpose again by serving under the famous Crimson Lighting.

 

Overall the manga from what I read is good with some interesting conversation. Praises Johnny Ridden a bit too much, but works often enough.

 

He has amnesia due to injuries during the war, was given a cover identity in the EFF, and he doesn't immediately accept that he's Johnny Ridden instead wanting to retain the identity he has formed over the past ten years. He primarily wants to save a coworker and get on with his life instead of getting involved with the political bs that happening in the manga.

 

Some super virus that could kill off all plant life that apparently Ridden used to know it location to where it is hidden. There are three groups fighting over it. Char (this is right before CCA) wants it on the Earth to force everyone to migrate into space. One guy who was a general at Jaburo during the one year war ...I can't remember want to get rid of it I think. And One guy wants to use it to restart the colonization of space feeling that the conflicts that have happened in the UC are due to the colonist being resentful of being forced into space due to overpopulation.


Edited by Bail o' Lies, 03 July 2019 - 07:05 AM.


#7 TheFirstEvil100

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Posted 25 June 2019 - 09:35 PM

 

I wouldn't say it's just the 08th MS Team. UC had some pretty clear morals and ideals, ones that Fukuda did not understand whatsoever. 00, in it's first season, just highlights how off SEED's idea of peace ended up being. If the heroes resolve to go around, shooting at everyone in order to make them stop fighting, they're not acting in a peaceful manner. That's called terrorism, Kira being a terrorist is not a smear. It's fact.

 

So, it's not so much 00 is trying to be the anti-SEED. What it's doing is highlighting how SEED, underneath all appearances, is the anti-Gundam.

I agree I mean another problem with SEED is the hate fans give Flay who some of my friends say is the most human in the show, as she shows hate, something all humans do. And yet many other SEED fans hate her why because she is not like Lacus, a perfect person who knows what's right and wrong and how things need to me.

 

And many, and I mean many SEED fans love her thinking she and Kira were perfect for each other, you know despite only meeting each other just two kittening times.

 

Lacus is like the Hinata of SEED people see that the pink hair songtress can't do anything wrong.



#8 Bail o' Lies

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Posted 26 June 2019 - 01:08 AM

I got bored recently and decided to re-watch as many gundam shows as I can.

 

To be honest a problem at the core of SEED is that the coordinators aren't a good substitute for the newtypes. Newtypes are psychics born from a natural evolution caused by human leaving the earth with mind reading, empathy, and mind control abilities among others. The thing is that newtypes especially as they become more awakened to their power start behaving increasingly more bizarre and alien. Their power and behavior clearly weird out all the old-types they encounter which make them both suspicious and terrified of them.

 

There four from the stories I look at so far that really stand out:

 

Lalah Sune before her death was just Char's weird pet project to make sure he stayed in Kylla Zabi's favor and while he does care about her -even clearly falls in love with her before her death- she is still ultimately just another tool in his revenge plot. For Amuro, she was some random person that kept mentally contacting him during his fights out in space until their weird acid trip during their battle. But with her sudden death and the mental backlash she inflicted on the both of them. They then literally could not get over her death becoming haunted by it and obsessed with killing the other in order to get revenge.

 

Scriocco to be honest I haven't gotten to re-watching Zeta yet but from what I recall he uses his mind control power to make women obey him and gain control of the Titans. Ends the anime by destroying the mind of a person putting them into a coma.

 

Quess Paraya was a spoiled brat of a spoiled politician whose literal presence made two young men/boys obsessed with her to the point of throwing out everything else about themselves; so they could focus on having her to themselves.

 

That Buddhist monk from Thunderbolt was able to form a cult utterly devoted to him to the point he gained control of South East Asia using his newtype abilities.

 

Compared to the coordinators are just genetically modified human with more enhance bodies. There is no randomness to them appearing since their parents (or one of their grandparents) decided they wanted an enhanced baby so they gave their child some mods. So they are slightly more gifted than most people. Other then the moral argument against genetic modification their really shouldn't be much to this, but they are treated by the story the same way as if they were newtypes/mutants from X-Men. Though they don't act as alien as some newtype do -besides Lacus and Kira and that's more due to bad writing- just oppressed by their existence.


Edited by Bail o' Lies, 02 July 2019 - 06:33 AM.


#9 HalfDemonInuyasha

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Posted 26 June 2019 - 01:13 AM

Some super virus that could kill off all plant life that apparently Ridden used to know it location to where it is hidden. There are three groups fighting over it. Char (this is right before CCA) wants it on the Earth to force everyone to migrate into space. One guy who was a general at Jaburo during the one year war ...I can't remember want to get rid of it I think. And One guy wants to use it to restart the colonization of space feeling that the conflicts that have happened in the UC are due to the colonist being resentful of being forced into space due to overpopulation.

Sounds like the opposite of the Astaroth bio-weapon from Mobile Suit Gundam Side Story 0079: Rise from the Ashes.

 

"Astaroth was a bioweapon developed on Earth by the Principality of Zeon, that accelerated and encouraged the proliferation of plant growth at extremely high levels. It was a weapon of slow, irreversible destruction that was designed with the objective of transforming the Earth into a giant, uninhabitable forest. During the events of Mobile Suit Gundam Side Story 0079: Rise From The Ashes video game, the "Astaroth" sample is completed at California Base and then transported to the Hughenden fortress in Australia. During the EFF attack on the base, The H.L.V. carrying the virus sample was destroyed by the White Dingo Team.
 

Some speculate that "Astaroth" was a ploy used by Zeon pilot Visch Donahue to get the H.L.V. of his men and equipment launched safely from the Hughenden H.L.V. base, and the Federation's focus on destroying the virus and heavy fighting in other areas was distraction enough for Walter Curtis' Staircase to the Moon plan (involving Zeon forces to retreat and gather in Africa) to be successful."

 


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#10 Bail o' Lies

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Posted 26 June 2019 - 01:15 AM

Sounds like the opposite of the Astaroth bio-weapon from Mobile Suit Gundam Side Story 0079: Rise from the Ashes.

"Astaroth was a bioweapon developed on Earth by the Principality of Zeon, that accelerated and encouraged the proliferation of plant growth at extremely high levels. It was a weapon of slow, irreversible destruction that was designed with the objective of transforming the Earth into a giant, uninhabitable forest. During the events of Mobile Suit Gundam Side Story 0079: Rise From The Ashes video game, the "Astaroth" sample is completed at California Base and then transported to the Hughenden fortress in Australia. During the EFF attack on the base, The H.L.V. carrying the virus sample was destroyed by the White Dingo Team.

 

Some speculate that "Astaroth" was a ploy used by Zeon pilot Visch Donahue to get the H.L.V. of his men and equipment launched safely from the Hughenden H.L.V. base, and the Federation's focus on destroying the virus and heavy fighting in other areas was distraction enough for Walter Curtis' Staircase to the Moon plan (involving Zeon forces to retreat and gather in Africa) to be successful."

Wait. That is actually what they call the bio weapon in the manga. Apparently, Johnny Ridden MS squad the Chimera were tasked with guarding a Zabi treasure ship that had a sample of that in it. They were developing the weapon -actually first made to just help food growth in the colonies when Zeon Deikun was still alive- you're speaking of but they first made the one I'm talking about as an accident.


Edited by Bail o' Lies, 26 June 2019 - 10:15 AM.


#11 HalfDemonInuyasha

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Posted 26 June 2019 - 05:16 AM

Wait. That is actually what they call the bio weapon in the manga. Apparently Johnny Ridden MS squad the chimera's were tasked with guarding a Zabi treasure ship that had a sample of that in it. They were developing the weapon -actually first made to just help food growth in the colonies when Zeon Deikun was still alive- you speak of but they first made the one I'm talking about as an accident.

The more ya know. lol


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#12 Bail o' Lies

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Posted 26 June 2019 - 05:31 AM

The more ya know. lol

Your not wrong from what I can tell the writer probably played that game as well and probably thought, "wait, they made a bio-weapon that causes extreme growth? Wouldn't be easier for the opposite to happen?" Then went with it on to become a plot line in his manga. Its a reference I didn't catch because I am not that immersed in Gundam lore. For example, apparently a main character is a daughter of some Zeon major called Greenwood or something.


Edited by Bail o' Lies, 26 June 2019 - 06:16 AM.


#13 Bail o' Lies

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Posted 30 June 2019 - 02:51 AM

Well I got done watching the three gundam series that fight using Gunpla.

 

Gundam Build fighter: Its overall good, some of the episodes are hit or miss for me, but I can see why it led to at the very least a sequel and a spin off. Didn't find the main trio that interesting compared to the side characters. Didn't mind the other world kingdom as an excuse for the particles that make the plot possible since it was introduced early on. Liked the theme of they are taking this seriously because they love their hobby so much.

 

Try: Like the main cast, like the idea of team battles, but can see why this wasn't as successful as the first one. It is better to have four teams of three with interesting characters; than twelve teams of three with one character being interesting and the other two that first character's useless unimportant tag-a-longs. That's the problem that leads to is that most of the fights aren't really team battles with strategy or even team work, but where everyone mutual kills one another till only the Team Try fighter that getting focus this battle and their opponent are left for a slug match, and that if it isn't just a one sided match to show off how awesome team try fighter gundpla and their improvement to them are. Also the dub has a problem with Sekai's voice his accent keep slipping through during the second half of the anime to the point its is always noticeable and distracting.

 

Divers: The dub is good, like the characters, and it feels like the person that wrote this anime has played an mmo at least once in their life. The main problem is Sarah the sentient ai that consumes the series at the end. The thing is that she is the same as any other magical maiden ai whatever in anime where she is completely and utterly nicely bland which when put with the rest of the cast makes her one note and flat. They do the whole is an AI alive and what is life which would better if it wasn't for the circumstances and her barely there personality that most characters cut from the same mold have.


Edited by Bail o' Lies, 30 June 2019 - 09:00 AM.


#14 HalfDemonInuyasha

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Posted 01 July 2019 - 05:51 AM

I wish we got to see Sei vs. Sekai in Try or an OVA or something.


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#15 Bail o' Lies

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Posted 09 July 2019 - 11:24 AM

To be honest, after re-watching some Gundam shows IBO just seem like its trying to be a new gritty take on the formula or trying to deconstruct it in some ways.

 

"Humanity has moved into space, the governing system of the world is a corrupt failing apart mess, the world is on the brink of war if not already, and the most vital weapons in this war are mobile suits. In comes a young teenage boy -who is either a moody brat or a child soldier- whose world is up-ended by the conflict is thrown into a super prototype mobile suit -often with an advance system installed in it- called a GUNDAM.  Because this prototype mobile suit has caught the eye of the aggressors of the conflict; that want to destroy it. To survive the war he must join the other side of the conflict often the corrupt government under the command of a young inexperience ship Captain -who will often slap him when the character get too moody- with his friends who are most often useless tag-alongs. One of which will like be a childhood friend who has strong feeling for the pilot. There will also eventually be a princess the joins up with the crew at one point, she is often utterly idealist, she opposes the war, wants peace to be restored to the world, change the corrupt system through talking it out (while sending the GUNDAM after anyone who disagrees with her), and is disgusted that the pilot pilots such a deadly weapon to the point she calls him a monster with no feelings yet is also aroused by said pilot killing thousands in her name. Eventually, it is discovered the GUNDAM pilot is an new breed of human that have special abilities that allow them to pilot mobile suits better, also have some metaphysical aspect that tie into the anti-war theme of Gundam. As the GUNDAM pilot by that point will have gotten sick of the killing and instead of simply fighting for survival will instead fight to end the war. The villains will have several different archetypes but the most important ones are the power hungry dictator that rules the antagonists and the masked rival with a hidden agenda."

 

The setting: There was a war three hundred years ago that nearly destroyed humanity, but were saved by Gundam pilots who descendants have been ruling ever since in a corrupt decadent aristocracy. Currently? There is no war. As while the ruling government is corrupt causing the regular people to live in a hellhole. The ruling factions are content and have no desire for a war to break out, or at least one they cannot control. At best there are petty conflicts as the different organization vie for more control. As such the good guys are not an army of a government/Resistance Fighters like in other Gundam stories but instead a PMC. The gundam is not a prototypes but are ancient artifacts from 300 years ago, its advance system the AV which allows the pilot to merge with the mobile suit, but must be installed at a young age. So to get pilots for mobile suits you have to implant them in children leading to kidnapping of children by less scrupulous organizations that then treat them as non-human.

 

So the main characters are part of Tekkadan a rouge group of child soldiers that have taken over their old PMC, they live on Mars, and the Gundams they find are lost artifacts they cobble into working weapons. The antagonist is Gjallarhorn the organization that more or less rules humanity founded by the original Gundam pilots that are now an aristocracy.

 

Mika is the main gundam pilot in the same vein of the emotionless child soldier like from Gundam 00 and Wing. Unlike them however is he wasn't trained to lose his emotion by someone; he instead forces himself to be like that so he can be the best weapon he can for his best friend Orga's plans; to the point he willing to tap into the gundam at the cost of the feeling in his body for power to fulfill his commands. Which leads to at least one moment of crisis when he realizes that Orga has been playing it by ear and hasn't had a plan all along. Though for me he is still boring to watch.

 

Orga is the inexperience captain that is put in charge of the gundam. Except he is not in the military, he usurpers his position, and he is friends with the gundam pilot instead of being stranger force to work together. So instead of being given commands by some sort of higher up, he has to make them, and the responsibility weigh on him; especially when he has to keep sending out his best friend who slowly gives his body over to the gundam to fulfill his commands. As well as the fact that the crew he command consist entirely of his close friends that he realizes half way in the first season are his family. So he is pushed to keep them safe as well as to try and give them a better life by the end of it. With Mika pushing him even further. He comes up with good plans but he often fighting people with not a lot of combat experience.

 

Kudelia is the idealist sheltered princess who want to help change the world. Which makes her a pawn to powerful people that initially wanted to use her as a martyr for a controlled revolution to jack up prices, and deal with complaints about worker rights. she survive the assassination attempt as well as the story, but becomes a lot more pragmatic in how she tries to improve the world.

 

Fareed is a char that became so impressed with the gundam's power he decided to solely rely on them for his schemes. Eventually abandoning or losing his status, powerful friends, military power, intelligence, and sanity all because he believe the Gundam would be his instant win button.

 

Gaelio is sort of the char in the second season but he is more "what if Garma have lived after Char betrayed him," he would ruin all Char's plots.

 

Rustal is the evil dictator that is actually completely sane, and knows how to use his resources.

 

Beyond the standard messages a Gundam anime series ask; to me the main question the anime presents is: Can you win a war with only gundams?

 

The first season is yes, since honestly Tekkadan are pretty much breezing through it. Though that is because they have no enemies that are competent enough to defeat them. Gjallahorn members were either incompetent, unwilling to go all out against children, or Fareed was undermining them. They quickly fall under the protection of the only force that was a threat to them the space mafia. Beyond that one band of space pirates but only because they had a gundam. So, with everyone except the grunts in Gale horn helping them along they were able to win, and so were their sponsors. Then comes season two. Where they have flourish so much they have no become a nuisance to some of the power-players. Not only that, but they have become ambitious and decided to join up with Fareed on the deal that they would rule Mars once he won. Then throughout the season they lose the support they had from the last season till they are only left with Fareed...and his insane plan of getting himself a gundam to win. When they try backing out it too late and they are destroyed by someone that's actually competent. Though most of them that survived their PMC destruction were able to find happy lives where the weren't forced to fight, their apparent goal all along, which to me sort of states that if Tekkadan had disbanded after season one they would have been fine; it was their ambition that destroyed them.

 

Overall, its fine not the best of the Gundam anime I've seen so far. But it's not a standard Gundam anime, and treating it as such was a major problem based on the comments about it so far here and else where. Also the idea of a melee focus gundam series was interesting.


Edited by Bail o' Lies, 21 June 2021 - 02:13 PM.


#16 HalfDemonInuyasha

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Posted 09 July 2019 - 06:42 PM

I think one of the most interesting aspects of IBO in terms of the mechanics and tech is how, aside from the one excavated Hashmal mobile armor, there are no beam weapons used due to the fact that beam weapons are rendered pretty much completely ineffective due to the laminated armor mobile suits now have - with a mass production mobile suit being able to take the full force of the Hashmal's beam cannon without a scratch. Not even beam sabers, but all physical melee weapons, and even ships lacking beam cannons.


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#17 RulesofNature

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Posted 21 July 2019 - 08:30 PM

Can you put the answer to this in the gundam talks; "If they hate Orga that much what to they think of Fareed? The crazy char that convince himself that he only need a gundam to win."

 

Well, originally there was support for him in the fandom though a lot of it came from female fans that shipped him with Gaelio. But  a lot of backlash set in during the end of season one. Mika killing Carta the way he did wasn't seen as a "hell yeah Tekkadan" moment by a number of people which, combined with the controversy surrounding episode 3, had folks saying Mika was evil. McGillis role in setting it up was noted, and him trying to kill Gaelio while saying "I'm killing you in order to obtain more power, I'll take good care of your sister," turn the female viewers against him.

 

McGillis had virtually no support from the audience going into season two, and Tekkadans relationship with him only made them look worse. That said viewers were not amused when he revealed his real plan, with him secretly being an idiot (in their words) the whole time (though, I do have to point out it is one of those things where we're supposed to question Orga on. Why join in on a coup if you have no idea what the plan actually is?). The show confirming he was a social Darwinist didn't help either. He remained unpopular until the end, though Gaelio did suffer some backlash when McGillis's VA complained about how the head writer favored him due to liking Gaelio's VA.


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#18 Bail o' Lies

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Posted 22 July 2019 - 03:58 AM

Well, originally there was support for him in the fandom though a lot of it came from female fans that shipped him with Gaelio. But  a lot of backlash set in during the end of season one. Mika killing Carta the way he did wasn't seen as a "hell yeah Tekkadan" moment by a number of people which, combined with the controversy surrounding episode 3, had folks saying Mika was evil. McGillis role in setting it up was noted, and him trying to kill Gaelio while saying "I'm killing you in order to obtain more power, I'll take good care of your sister," turn the female viewers against him.

 

McGillis had virtually no support from the audience going into season two, and Tekkadans relationship with him only made them look worse. That said viewers were not amused when he revealed his real plan, with him secretly being an idiot (in their words) the whole time (though, I do have to point out it is one of those things where we're supposed to question Orga on. Why join in on a coup if you have no idea what the plan actually is?). The show confirming he was a social Darwinist didn't help either. He remained unpopular until the end, though Gaelio did suffer some backlash when McGillis's VA complained about how the head writer favored him due to liking Gaelio's VA.

For the head writer bit, if the writer was favoring one side not for story reason but because they like someone on that side yeah that's a problem.

 

As for Orga like I said his ambition for a better life for his men and his success made him both over-confident and reckless. From what I recall the second he learned what Fareed's plan was, he realized how stupid it was and quickly tried to surrender, but Rustal wasn't having any of it and felt he need to destroy Tekkaidan to show Gjallarhorn's power and restore it reputation. So, I always figure that Orga assumed Fareed had to have a solid plan if he was going to be doing something this ambitious; when he finally learned he didn't, it was too late.

 

As for the sister bit even at the time to me it came off as him showing what he really felt about Gaelio. He really did treasure his friendship but he needed to die for his plans are more important and to make up for it he will protect his sister as well as make sure she is happy in the marriage. Both as an apology for kill him, but mainly just because she is Gaelio's sister.


Edited by Bail o' Lies, 23 July 2019 - 03:24 AM.


#19 RulesofNature

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Posted 22 July 2019 - 09:49 AM

For the head writer bit, if the writer was favoring one side not for story reason but because they like someone on that side yeah that's a problem.

 

 

From the sounds of things, there wasn't much of a plan for the series other than getting to the director's planned ending. The animators have said they weren't even sure they were bringing Gaelio back for season two, and the director was the one pushing for Tekkadan's downfall, I think this is a case of a VA not liking the way the series was handled (he's not the only one), and lashing out.


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#20 HalfDemonInuyasha

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Posted 22 July 2019 - 08:42 PM

As for the sister bit even at the time to me it came off as him showing what he really felt about Gaelio. He really did treasure his friendship but he need to die for his plans are more important and to make up for it he will protect his sister as well as make sure she is happy in the marriage. Both as an apology for kill him, but mainly just because she is Gaelio's sister.

Sounds almost similar to Char with Garma. Char seemed to appreciate their friendship, but Garma simply had the "misfortune" of being born to the Zabi family, his target of vengeance that superseded that friendship.


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