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Boruto...this kitten again episode 18


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#41 ThroughWithLove

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Posted 05 August 2017 - 06:57 PM

Naruto falling in love with Hinata due to unseen Sakura-like qualities is silly, but to its credit is at least an explanation free of retcons and thus an explanation more faithful to the source material than what we saw in The Last. Ridiculous I know. :lmao:


Edited by ThroughWithLove, 05 August 2017 - 06:57 PM.

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#42 ThroughWithLove

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Posted 05 August 2017 - 08:48 PM

Hmm . . . I'm not really aware of anyone besides yourself on this site who disputes the fact that the explanation of NH in The Last is premised on retcons, thus I don't really see who'd be the recepient of the joke---oh wait a minute. I see what you did there. You are telling me a joke. Awe shucks. The Last not being a retconned fueled mess? Hilarious stuff. Almost had me there for a second. We need to get you on standup. :lmao:


Edited by ThroughWithLove, 05 August 2017 - 08:50 PM.

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#43 ThroughWithLove

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Posted 06 August 2017 - 01:07 AM

 

You realize that the Last is not premised on retcons, right? What Retcons are in the Last? I bet most of what you -think- is a retcon is absolutely not.

 

The last time I gave you a chance on the subject of retcons, you ended up presenting a definition that, when reduced to absurdity, can be used to demonstrate that no work in existence has ever been retconned in any shape or fashion. That the concept of retcons in general is just some urban legend. I'll tell you what that though. If we can agree on a definition and you can avoid semantics (instant boredom for me), I might entertain the subject for a couple of posts. :wink:


Edited by ThroughWithLove, 06 August 2017 - 01:08 AM.

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#44 ThroughWithLove

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Posted 06 August 2017 - 01:41 AM

 

Right, how about you list your so called retcons first, and we'll see how it goes.

 

Unless we can agree on a solid definition first, I don't see the point. If my terms aren't satisfactory, we'll just have to agree to disagree.


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#45 ThroughWithLove

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Posted 06 August 2017 - 01:50 AM

 

This: A piece of new information that imposes a different interpretation. Note: The interpretation must be DIFFERENT.

 

I have no problems with this, though just for good measure, I'd like to add the first statement found on the wikipedia page for retcons: Retroactive continuity, or retcon for short,[1][2] is a literary device in which established facts in a fictional work are adjusted, ignored or contradicted by a subsequently published work otherwise intended to maintain continuity with the form.

 

Agreed?


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#46 ThroughWithLove

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Posted 06 August 2017 - 01:54 AM

 

This is synonymous wording, fine with this.

 

I'm a lawyer. I like being really specific. :P

 

Will list the relevant retcons after I get done watching the latest episode of Dragon Ball Super.


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#47 ThroughWithLove

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Posted 06 August 2017 - 04:08 AM

Once again, a retcon is (1) A piece of new information that imposes a different interpretation. Note: The interpretation must be DIFFERENT or (2) : a literary device in which established facts in a fictional work are adjusted, ignored or contradicted by a subsequently published work otherwise intended to maintain continuity with the form. These are the agreed definitions. I will cite to them at all times and trust there will be no attempts to modify them for the duration of this debate. 

 

 

Retcon #1. Naruto only said he loved Sakura because of his rivalry with Sasuke.

 

 

 

We're never told the precise reason Naruto likes Sakura, but a plain reading of the manga does not allow the notion that it is a result of wanting to "beat Sasuke." Therefore, this scene is a piece of new information that imposes a DIFFERENT interpretation; it is a literary device that adjusts, ignores and contradicts the established facts in the source material. Observe:

 

 

naruto-1564851.jpg

 

As we can see plainly, he liked her before the three were ever assigned to their three man team.  Moreover:

 

naruto-1198.jpg

 

We can plainly see that Sasuke is the object of affection of girls throughout the entire class. Yet Naruto is never once shown with any remote interest in any of these girls. If the goal is to beat Sasuke, then it follows that Naruto would be making an attempt at girls beyond just Sakura. But he doesn't do that. And that's on account of the fact that for his own reasons, he specifically likes Sakura for attributes and characteristics unique to Sakura alone. Hence the below page:

naruto-1564875.jpg

 

He doesn't realize why he likes the girls in his class. In fact, he doesn't have those kinds of feelings for them at all. He realizes why he likes Sakura specifically. Because he likes Sakura specifically and for his own reasons, the infamous parting moment in The Last is plainly a retcon.

 

 

Retcon #2: Naruto does not understand love

 

e718a361da6229618f854bd1e45e30c3a8a26216

 

f97a830d331621d0b2fb99a82de27aa0e143349d

 

Of course they're not the same and a plain reading of the original manga tells us that the title character is well aware of what romantic love is based on his own interactions and observations seen throughout the manga.Therefore, this scene is a piece of new information that imposes a DIFFERENT interpretation; it is a literary device that adjusts, ignores and contradicts the established facts in the source material. Observe:

 

naruto-412519.jpg

 

The title character gets flustered and embarrassed when confronted on his feelings for Sakura. A feeling we've clearly never seen him associate with ramen. Moreover, he understands the subtleties:

 

naruto-1568900.jpg

 

 

Note how he lectures Sai about "reading the situation." Moreover, Naruto is proficiently empathetic:

 

naruto-925154.jpg

 

Despite Sakura's confession of love, Naruto is immediately able to discern that she does not in fact have romantic love for him. If he didn't know what love was, he would not have been able to do this. What's more, the concept of "love = food" is paying homage to Dragon Ball

 

da1953b257b108606a41714b1d92dd9a.jpg

 

There, we learn that Goku, through his ignorance and child like naivete did not understand what marriage was and thought ChiChi was talking about food. In Dragon Ball, this make sense as Goku is generally portrayed as a hillbilly character with little to no understanding of the nuances of social norms and interpersonal relationships. Throughout this series, this is frequently played for laughs. To this day, it still gets played for laughs (i.e. Goku having no idea what a kiss is, despite having been married for decades). 

 

In Naruto, the concept makes no sense as Naruto is frequently shown to be aware of the nuances social norms and interpersonal relationships, hence his interaction Sai above regarding his own personal feelings as well as his interaction with Sakura regarding hers.

 

Now I'm fully aware of your counter-argument for this as I've seen you and similar minded folk made it before. In essence, you try and put forth the idea that Naruto is fully aware of other people's feelings, but has no awareness of his own. To this, I refer you back to the Sai scene I posted above. I'd also add this scene:

 

naruto-1961829.jpg

 

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And would pose the following question: What exactly is Naruto so sensitive about here?

 

Bottom-line: Naruto is not Goku. He has shown himself well aware of the nuances of interpersonal relationships and  love is no exception. This is why he tries to steal a kiss from Sakura. It is why he can't bring himself to tell Sakura how he feels (believing that he can't do so if he can't keep his promises). It is why he almost immediately falls in love with Hinata after seeing her genjutsu scarf memories or whatever despite only just having only recently found out about 'romantic love' apparently. He understands what love is just fine. Because Naruto is plainly and consistently shown to be aware of the ins and outs of interpersonal relationships (to a degree of proficiency at that), he understands love and thus the "Naruto does not know the difference between loving people and loving ramen scene" is a retcon.

 

 

 

And that'll do it for now . . .


Edited by ThroughWithLove, 06 August 2017 - 04:57 AM.

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#48 ThroughWithLove

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Posted 06 August 2017 - 06:29 AM

RE: Retcon #1. Naruto only said he loved Sakura because of his rivalry with Sasuke.

 

You start off by telling us that Sakura never said that the "rivalry" was the only reason Naruto said he loved her. You place your bets on the term only because you acknowledge that if Sakura is saying that the "rivalry" was the only reason Naruto said he loved her, then this is  retcon (a clear case of adjusting, ignoring or contradicting established facts). However, there are two problems with your reasoning here:

 

First, Sakura does not mention any of the additional reasons you point out (and we'll get to those in a second). She simply makes the point that Naruto's love was a result of him not wanting to lose to Sasuke, therefore was not real. The point here is that he didn't have any actual affection towards her whereas he does have actual affection for Hinata; for her, it was about beating Sasuke, but for Hinata, it's about being with her.  Second, the moment you acknowledge that there were in fact actual affections outside of trying to beat Sasuke (she is pretty and they both want to be acknowledged), Sakura's claims fall apart; you acknowledge that Sakura is incorrect in concluding that Naruto's feelings for her were not "the real thing" whereas his feelings for Hinata were "the real thing."

 

In short order, this "only" counter-argument is your undoing as any other reasons for liking Sakura leads us to the conclusion that this scene adjusts, ignores and contradicts the original manga and is therefore a retcon. Noting that, this is probably why these other reasons do not get mentioned in this scene in the first place.

 

Furthermore, I'd I would add that contrary to your claims otherwise, Naruto tying up Sasuke to steal a kiss from Sakura is by no means summed up by what is said by Sakura in the parting moment scene.

 

 

naruto-1564879.jpg

 

 

 

He disguised himself as Sasuke because he wanted to know Sakura's feelings about himself. Had nothing to do with competing, which is why he didn't just up and try to make Sasuke look like a jerk in the first place.

 

Lastly, under the rivalry premise, there is simply no reason not to take a stab at pursuing other girls even if Naruto were to have determined that Sakura was the most favorable (and she wasn't, by the way, given her unattractive forehead, as noted by many).  No need to put all of your eggs in one basket. There was nothing stopping him from taking a crack at Ino or the other random academy girls. Absolutely nothing. 

 

 

RE: Retcon #2: Naruto does not understand love

 

As I preempted in the previous post, you've taken the position that Naruto understands other people's feelings, but not his own. Specifically, you tell us "he lacked a social library to do internal analysis and categorizing of his emotions." This is not only pure conjecture, but is contradicted by the examples I provided in the previous post. His embarrassed reaction to Sai asking him about his feelings for Sakura, him valuing said feelings enough to refrain from telling Sakura at that point and time, his annoyance towards Sai for feeding him as opposed to Sakura, and that scene where he immediately leaves Sasuke's hospital room. If he had no understanding of romantic love, there'd be no reason to react in these fashions in any of those scenes. Instead, we'd get this: http://tvtropes.org/...ObliviousToLove . He may have been a social pariah, but he reacted the same way anybody else react in those situations.

 

You point out that he could not understand nor save Sasuke until it was too late, but it should be noted that nobody, social pariah or otherwise, was able to persuade Sasuke to change his ways. On the other hand, Naruto did save Gaara and he did so through specifically being able to realize his loneliness and how it compared to Gaara's Later on, in the Pain arc, he understands his own hatred, but is nonetheless ever to overcome it during his engagement with Nagato. So all in all, he seems to understand his own feelings just fine when we take into account the actual events of the manga.


Edited by ThroughWithLove, 06 August 2017 - 06:30 AM.

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#49 ThroughWithLove

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Posted 06 August 2017 - 04:21 PM

RE: Retcon #1. Naruto only said he loved Sakura because of his rivalry with Sasuke.

 

There appears to be some confusion here. The above bolded summary is indeed my argument. I understand you've made some commotion about the lack of the word 'only' in the actual film, but as I've shown by examining the totality of the dialogue present in the scene, it is exactly what Sakura is suggesting. To interpret the scene in any other way makes Sakura's reasoning about Naruto's love self-contradictory. When we examine the dialogue and note Sakura's basis for determining that Naruto's love for her was not real, that is indeed what she is saying; that Naruto was only pursuing her to beat Sasuke whereas he was pursuing Hinata because of legitimate affection.

 

 

RE: Retcon #2: Naruto does not understand love

 

You claim that your position that "[Naruto] lacked a social library to do internal analysis and categorizing of his emotions" is not pure conjecture and rely on a quote from the Sage of Six Paths to support this. The problem here is that the Sage of Six Path's line about Naruto does not erase the scenes I provided to show that he understands interpersonal relationships and is repeatedly not shown to be oblivious to his own thoughts and feelings as is alleged to be the case with Hinata. If your premise were correct, he'd be oblivious during the hospital scene with Tsunade and would not have left the room. If your premise held, he'd have no idea what the the implications to Sakura feeding him were and surely would've lectured Sai about reading the situation. If your premise were true, he wouldn't be embarrassed in the slightest about Sai asking him whether he likes Sakura. If your premise were accurate, any notion of needing to refrain from revealing his true feelings wouldn't have ever been conceived. If he simply thinks loving people and ramen are the same, then none of these scenes happen.

 

This "NS played up for comedy" angle is irrelevant. This is a very common trope for shounen series that involve tsundere romances. It's almost always played for laughs. At one point, Shikamaru's father even gives some explanation for it.

 

You then go on to question that if Naruto does indeed understand love, then what is the reason for 437 not receiving a response? And the answer is pretty straightforward. The author has consistently proclaimed embarrassment about writing love scenes. That's pretty much it. Of course, if we're tasked with creating an in-universe explanation, there are many we can go with without contradicting the manga. The most common is that Naruto hadn't gotten over Sakura yet. Personally, I'm inclined to believe that screen play writers were determined to slay any notion of Sakura ever being heartless for turning Naruto down (his feelings were never legitimate in the first place and Sakura saw right through him) and Hinata being a silver medal (Naruto simply didn't know what love was; that's why he didn't respond to Hinata's confession). That's my two cents anyway.

 

Lastly, in regards to Naruto saving Sasuke, I was responding to your claim that Naruto was unable save him initially. My point is that nobody, social pariah or not, could convince him initially. However, he did save Gaara early on and did so with a clear understanding of his personal feelings, as reflected in the dialogue, so the example does not hold.

 

And that'll do it for now . . .


Edited by ThroughWithLove, 06 August 2017 - 05:21 PM.

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#50 ThroughWithLove

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Posted 06 August 2017 - 05:17 PM

Is there anything Hinata can't do?

 


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#51 BlackShirtGuy

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Posted 06 August 2017 - 06:06 PM

Is there anything Hinata can't do?

 

Welp, she can't be a good character  :lmao:


“There are many types of monsters in this world, monsters who will not show themselves and who cause trouble. Monsters who abduct children, monsters who devour dreams, monsters who suck blood, and, monsters who always tell lies. Lying monsters are a real nuisance, they are much more cunning than other monsters. They pose as humans, even though they have no understanding of the human heart. They eat, even though they've never experienced hunger. They study even though the have no interest in academics. They seek friendship even though they do not know how to love. If I were to encounter such a monster, I would likely be eaten by it, because in truth, I am that monster.”   -L. Lawliet

 

#52 The Doctor forever

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Posted 06 August 2017 - 08:24 PM

Is there anything Hinata can't do?

 

I can seem to see the video, what's it about?



#53 T XD

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Posted 06 August 2017 - 08:31 PM

I can seem to see the video, what's it about?

Hinata can eat the most bowls of Ramen than anyone.



#54 ThroughWithLove

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Posted 07 August 2017 - 02:55 AM

RE: Retcon #1. Naruto only said he loved Sakura because of his rivalry with Sasuke.

 

This argument is pretty straightforward. I don't see the need to rephrase it. The entire "only" dispute can be resolved simply by watching the scene in its entirety. It's clear Sakura isn't suggesting that there were additional reasons. And when we consider that Sakura herself had rivaled over Sasuke with Ino, we determine that according to Sakura, rivalry + additional characteristics =/=  doesn't love X.

 

You further tell us that there is no contradiction and that chapter 3 clarifies and solidifies the position that it's still a competition with Sasuke, but I've already addressed this counter-argument in one of the above posts. Specifically, I said:

 

Furthermore, I'd I would add that contrary to your claims otherwise, Naruto tying up Sasuke to steal a kiss from Sakura is by no means summed up by what is said by Sakura in the parting moment scene.

 

 

naruto-1564879.jpg

 

 

 

He disguised himself as Sasuke because he wanted to know Sakura's feelings about himself. Had nothing to do with competing, which is why he didn't just up and try to make Sasuke look like a jerk in the first place.

 

You further say that Naruto's alleged love-rivalry with Sasuke does not discredit an NS friendship, but when we look back to the actual dialogue in the third chapter, it's clear that Sakura's looks or her yearning for acknowledgment do not lead Naruto to desire mere friendship, but they are why he is romantically interested and why he tries to follow up with the kiss:

 

naruto-1564875.jpg

 

As such, what we have from your comments here is an effort rewrite what is plainly established with this scene. We have precisely what the film did by adjusting, ignoring and contradicting established facts; we have ourselves a retcon. Yearning for mere friendship with her? I think not.

 

 

RE: Retcon #2: Naruto does not understand love

 

 

You start by telling us that chapter 3 actually supports the notion that "Naruto does not understand love" and that "Naruto knows Sakura cares a lot for him, and because he has that common ground with her, he can make that understanding and depart." What are you referring to exactly in regards to chapter as well as making an understanding and departing? Clarification would be appreciated.

 

You next try and discredit Naruto's infamous encounter with Sai by claiming that Sai not a reliable source of information, but this argument has always failed as a result of Naruto's embarrassed reaction to Sai's question as well as the fact that he does nothing to deny Sai's belief that he loves Sakura. If your premise were valid, Naruto would've responded with something to the effect of "No, I only like Sakura as a friend" and not "How can I [in reference to whether he has told her how he feels]? I can't even keep my promises." There are a million different ways Naruto could've conveyed what you're saying in that scene, but he didn't. More importantly, Mr. I-don't-understand-love simply has no reason to react the way he did in this scene if he's simply the oblivious oath The Last tries to portray him as.

 

You tell us that NS being played up for comedy is certainly not irrelevant give that "it gives a weight of difference between NH, which is the actual love that #2 refers to, and NS, where the love that is here, is shallow", but this argument falls apart since (1) it assumes without justification that otherwise romantic scenes premised on comedy are shallow and (2) assumes that NH has more serious scenes than NS prior to the film. I would have to ask that you support both of these assumptions before we went any further on this subpoint. 

 

As to Gaara, I had to reread what you said and I misread your argument. Basically, you're telling us that because Naruto was socially stunted, he could  only connect with people when he had common ground (i.e. loneliness with Gaara and . . .  whatever the heck Naruto and Sasuke were rambling about in chapter 698), right? Feel free to clarify. If so, this is a flawed argument. If he is merely using his own experiences to make determinations about other people's emotions, how was he able to discern that Sakura still love Sasuke during the fake confession? He never experienced love and had no other framework to work from, right? 


Edited by ThroughWithLove, 07 August 2017 - 03:07 AM.

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#55 ThroughWithLove

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Posted 07 August 2017 - 02:59 AM

Welp, she can't be a good character  :lmao:

:lmao:


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#56 Yyubie

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Posted 07 August 2017 - 03:02 AM

Epic fight : ThroughWithLove vs Analyzer

 

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#57 Yyubie

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Posted 07 August 2017 - 03:04 AM

Is there anything Hinata can't do?

 

lolololol.gif

 

She is ageless stays like 17 years old forevaaah.


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#58 James S Cassidy

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Posted 09 August 2017 - 05:50 PM

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#59 Frankie

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Posted 12 August 2017 - 04:50 PM

 
This is way more bashing than a joke. You are better then that. 


It's a joke because the whole thing is a joke. We waited fifteen years for Naruto to become Hokage and we didn't even get to see him do it.




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