127 replies to this topic

[James S Cassidy]

It's not even like she was his "Plan B." Remember the last movie is about seeing "the true love of nH" happen. What we see is Naruto acting more or less the same with hinata as he normally does. Ie a friend that he only occasionally talks to since she rarely if ever takes the initiative to interact with him. Hinata gives up the second she see a scarf around Naruto neck. And it basically up to Sakura "The girl that rejected Naruto feeling(according to the movie)"  has to put them together with the help of Shikamaru brow beating him and threatening that if he doesn't fall in love with her he won't become hokage, a genjutsu guilt trip, and toneri pursuing hinata there for making a competition between the two to see which gets her hand. 

 

"You will take this silver medal and you will like. And if you aren't happy with it, then you are not a real man."

And women think they are unequal sometimes?

[Shadow1275]

It's not even like she was his "Plan B." Remember the last movie is about seeing "the true love of nH" happen. What we see is Naruto acting more or less the same with hinata as he normally does. Ie a friend that he only occasionally talks to since she rarely if ever takes the initiative to interact with him. Hinata gives up the second she see a scarf around Naruto neck. And it basically up to Sakura "The girl that rejected Naruto feeling(according to the movie)"  has to put them together with the help of Shikamaru brow beating him and threatening that if he doesn't fall in love with her he won't become hokage, a genjutsu guilt trip, and toneri pursuing hinata there for making a competition between the two to see which gets her hand. 

Technically Hinata was never even a plan B. The number of filler girls Naruto racked up is just ridiculous. And he showed far more interest in them then he ever did Hinata

[Skarrow]

The title of the thread made me laugh. Just how exactly are we supposed to properly analyze Kishimoto's story if he lies to his readers in his own narrative?

 

^True, the first Shippuden movie even had me shipping Naruto/Shion for a short while.

[rocci]

The title of the thread made me laugh. Just how exactly are we supposed to properly analyze Kishimoto's story if he lies to his readers in his own narrative?
 
^True, the first Shippuden movie even had me shipping Naruto/Shion for a short while.

I think shion herself is Hinata expy.

@mangareader
Eventhought I'm late, I think naruto will be okay even if he's not sakura first love/boy. So I think he will be okay if he's not a gold medal.

Edited by rocci, 08 April 2016 - 02:39 PM.

[dl316bh]

 

There isn't some secret underlying genius storytelling here...

 

The manga ran out of that three hundred plus chapters before its end. I'm glad to come visit and see pretty much everyone agrees it ended up being garbage, because around the time I left here, people were still largely trying to defend this series despite the fact that it had been circling the drain for a long time.

 

Hinata wasn't even the first at anything in Naruto's life, like ever...

 

Hinata was never anything in his life. I'm sketchy on the details of what happened later - I gave up reading two years before the end, so while I know the events, it's from synopsis - but when I stopped she'd still yet to do anything, really. She had maybe three genuine conversations with him up to that point and her biggest moment was when she stupidly rushed a foe who was way out of her league and found herself immediately shut down in hilarious fashion. She's a bizarre anomaly in fiction in that she's the "victorious love interest", yet she not only did little to nothing through the course of the manga, but she had little real development and even less time on panel. There was no set up at all. They had to go so far as to use an entire anime film - the final one, even - to try and sell a relationship that, if you read only the manga, does not work.

 

She's like if Kazumi ended up with Yuji in Shakugan no Shana instead of the titular character. Actually, that may even be too generous a comparison. Kazumi was a similar "satellite love interest", but she at least had plenty of screen time. She couldn't really DO anything for most of the series and as such she just kind of orbited the greater goings on, but she was there and she had focus.

 

None of this should be a shock, though, because Naruto as a whole is awful at romance. Which... well, yeah, it was a shonen series, so that's not exactly a focus. But it still went to the well, so it's fair game. Hell, in the end it wasn't even any good at telling a grand action story, so...

 

That is what Hinata is...she is the silver medal trophy because no matter what happened no matter how hard Naruto tried...he always lost to Sasuke....even in the very end.

 

I still think they should have just named the manga "Uchiha" or something. Even when he wasn't around, the manga was more about that family than the main character.

 

People actually think Naruto won that fight, but all he did was gave up everything for someone who didn't even want it,

 

You could make the argument that Naruto loved Sasuke more than any of the girls, honestly, because holy crap, dude was obsessed with him. That was his pattern. Giving up everything for someone who didn't really care all that much about him.

 

"You will take this silver medal and you will like. And if you aren't happy with it, then you are not a real man."

 

No big surprise that only led to misery. Great life our protagonist ended up leading. Bad home life and a crappy parent.

Edited by dl316bh, 08 April 2016 - 10:54 PM.

[NeonRanger]

Sorry but I can't picture Naruto being okay with silver medal. Even if he was depicted or it was written as Naruto being okay with it, it would literally ruin NS for me. Compare everything Naruto/ Sasuke has done for Sakura. To have her still having feelings for Sasuke and Naruto being okay as second place is just as bad as NH being canon, because he still couldn't fully get the girl he always loved in the end. He still settled, only he became the second guy. And all of NS mutual development before that would be pointless as well. L would be fine with silver metal if the first love wasn't Sasuke. Silver metal is only as good if the first love can be easily liked. Sasuke was caught between mass murder/anarchy. The fact that Naruto was willing to die for him is problematic enough, despite unreciprocated feelings (why I'm anti-SNS), but to have Sakura carry more of emotional baggage towards him and still have room to put him at the spot of first love after everything Naruto has done for her on comparison? I would only been okay with NS if Sakura got over Sasuke; I don't mind her having a soft spot/ care for him, but as a brOTP. 

[rocci]

@neonranger
I can see him do that, but that's because I see it not as settling but naruto is sakura second love.

Maybe we need answer to what is second medal? Does it mean second place (from what I understand) or does it mean settling place?

[dl316bh]

@neonranger
I can see him do that, but that's because I see it not as settling but naruto is sakura second love.

Maybe we need answer to what is second medal? Does it mean second place (from what I understand) or does it mean settling place?

Pretty sure they meant "silver medal" and accidentally put "second medal". But yeah, "silver medal" is essentially second place. Think the Olympics, where Gold is best, Silver is second and Bronze is third. So the "silver medal" comparison would imply they were second best. Which, in the terms of romantic relationships, implies that because they couldn't get the guy/girl they really liked, they settled for second best.

 

Which, you know, is pretty much a road to ruin, especially if the person is aware they were the runner up, but that's neither here nor there.

Edited by dl316bh, 09 April 2016 - 07:37 AM.

[rocci]

@dl
Personally I don't see that as something bad.
I think the fear or hate of it come from the fact that it could make the love interest betray them only to go to the "good medal" if they given opurtunity.

But in story telling it rarely happen, because when a love interest "settling" to the silver medal, they will commit to love them with all their hearth. That's why I always said that what will make NS canon is naruto love confession for his confession will change sakura hearth if kishi intent to make NS canon Ofc.

Or else the like of syaoran should feel bad because sakura kinomoto settling for him after yukito reject her.

[BlackBird19]

@dl
Personally I don't see that as something bad.
I think the fear or hate of it come from the fact that it could make the love interest betray them only to go to the "good medal" if they given opurtunity.

But in story telling it rarely happen, because when a love interest "settling" to the silver medal, they will commit to love them with all their hearth. That's why I always said that what will make NS canon is naruto love confession for his confession will change sakura hearth if kishi intent to make NS canon Ofc.

Or else the like of syaoran should feel bad because sakura kinomoto settling for him after yukito reject her.

I agree with this. Because in all actuality there is no gold and silver medal in true love. There is only who you truly love now that matters most. Whoever you really fall in love with will always wind up being first in your life. My wife was not my first love but I can't imagine loving anyone else now the way I love her, even my first.

 

That's why this story's pairings fall short. We're not shown any real evidence that they're truly in love. That Hinata or Sakura come first in the lives of their husbands. For Naruto and Sasuke we're shown that their jobs, their duty and each other seem to come first.

[NeonRanger]

I don't have an issue with the silver medal, like I said. I Sakura's first love was Lee or Kiba even, I don't have issue with silver medal for Naruto. It's Sasuke. Of course you have problematic first loves or relationships, but SS never even had one. Not only that, but Sasuke planned on committing murder, destroying the village, failed attempted to murder both Naruti and Sakura, and he is Sakura (and Naruto)'s first love?

 

My issue is how Sakura's love for Sasuke would be at or closer to the same pedestal as Naruto being Sakura's second love, because what has Sasuke ever done for Naruto and Sakura to care for him this much? I don't care how committed NS is, I would still need a closure as to why Sakura and Naruto continue to love him that that they are willing to drop everything he has ever done just for him to be at their side again. 

 

And the way Kishi dragged the romances since Pain, I really doubt he would make NS make sense in canon, which he proved right with 615 and 693. By 693, a lot of NS (and I) were hoping that Sakura would realize her feelings through genjutsu, something that I never hoped to happen before the War Arc. I wasn't expecting some magical romance ending, but I also didn't want NS to happen over genjutsu or something shallow like Sakura realizing who poked her forehead, something Kishi had manage to do with NH and SS in the end. Kishi truly left the manga right after the Pain Arc because everything became crap after that.

 

Romantic plot wise, If Kishi was a decent romance writer, or at the least went to his his wife for advice rather than rely on his ignorant assistants, NS being some silver metal would have been okay and written off decently. But since he isn't, I would need at least a decent explain as to why couples happen. NS happen right after 693 without a good explanation or a mediocre one at best would only make it look like Sakura settled because she couldn't get Sasuke. I really don't like that. 

Edited by NeonRanger, 09 April 2016 - 12:22 PM.

[Bail o' Lies]

If you really don't want Naruto to be Sakura's second love. Well how about this Sakura fell in love with Sasuke when Naruto complemented her forehead. Kishi could had Naruto reveal it and then made the excuse that it was the moment she fell in love with Sasuke but learning the truth made her realize she either loved Naruto all along or was looking for love in the wrong place.

[rocci]

@bail
Sakura (and ino) already has feeling for sasuke since the academy day.

[Bail o' Lies]

@bail
Sakura (and ino) already has feeling for sasuke since the academy day.

A crush is not love.

[NeonRanger]

If you really don't want Naruto to be Sakura's second love. Well how about this Sakura fell in love with Sasuke when Naruto complemented her forehead. Kishi could had Naruto reveal it and then made the excuse that it was the moment she fell in love with Sasuke but learning the truth made her realize she either loved Naruto all along or was looking for love in the wrong place.

 

I like it. 

 

I don't mind Naruto being a second love, just not being second over a guy who tried to kill you three times. I don't mind her first love being problematic, but Sasuke literally shown not one ounce of interest in her or Naruto at all. If Sasuke at the least had shown some sort of care for his teammates, then I wouldn't mind Naruto being second guy and I wouldn't have issues with SNS and SS. 

Edited by NeonRanger, 09 April 2016 - 08:38 PM.

[dl316bh]

 

Personally I don't see that as something bad.

 

I think the fear or hate of it come from the fact that it could make the love interest betray them only to go to the "good medal" if they given opurtunity.

A lot of people would disagree. It's not exactly a fulfilling feeling for most to realize they are, frankly, second best in someones heart. In a love triangle, it leads to doubt and resentment, because if they know they were second best, they know they were not the first choice or number one in the other persons heart.

 

It's not a "first love" or "second love" thing. That implies falling out of love with the first person, or moving on and is an entirely different situation. Plenty of people have "first loves" they move on from, etc. This is a love triangle where the center of the triangle preferring or even loving one side more, but due to circumstances they cannot have them, so they just go with the back-up option. Would you want to be someones back-up plan, just so they're not alone? That feels more like being used. Even if they're aware of it and okay with it for a while, odds are very high it will wear on them eventually.

 

Naruto's not a character I could picture settling for second best. But then again, Naruto turned out to be a hypocrite, a bad husband and a bad father. So honestly, what the hell do I even know about him, at this point?

 

It would be different if, say, Sakura fell out of love with him or something, had some soul searching, etc. That's a different situation than what is being described. But going with the back-up because you couldn't get the main one you were after - which is what's being described, really - is... yeah.

 

 

A crush is not love.

I'd agree, but Sakura was written as though it was a great love of hers regardless, so that's the way the Naruto manga rolls with it. Nevermind that this makes no sense. Nevermind that she never knew anything about him. Nevermind that the person she had a crush on was not even really him, but her idealized image of him that somehow never dissipated after the eighth time he tried to kill her and Naruto both. In fiction, you can write it as whatever you want, because you have that power. But the readers also have the power to call bull**** and give you the finger, so...

 

I guess that's the trick to understanding why the manga turned out to be pretty bad. No one really grew or changed. What happened to them made little impact on where they ended up. Major lack of consequences.

Edited by dl316bh, 09 April 2016 - 08:39 PM.

[BlackBird19]

A lot of people would disagree. It's not exactly a fulfilling feeling for most to realize they are, frankly, second best in someones heart. In a love triangle, it leads to doubt and resentment, because if they know they were second best, they know they were not the first choice or number one in the other persons heart.

 

It's not a "first love" or "second love" thing. That implies falling out of love with the first person, or moving on and is an entirely different situation. Plenty of people have "first loves" they move on from, etc. This is a love triangle where the center of the triangle preferring or even loving one side more, but due to circumstances they cannot have them, so they just go with the back-up option. Would you want to be someones back-up plan, just so they're not alone? That feels more like being used. Even if they're aware of it and okay with it for a while, odds are very high it will wear on them eventually.

 

Naruto's not a character I could picture settling for second best. But then again, Naruto turned out to be a hypocrite, a bad husband and a bad father. So honestly, what the hell do I even know about him, at this point?

 

It would be different if, say, Sakura fell out of love with him or something, had some soul searching, etc. That's a different situation than what is being described. But going with the back-up because you couldn't get the main one you were after - which is what's being described, really - is... yeah.

 

I'd agree, but Sakura was written as though it was a great love of hers regardless, so that's the way the Naruto manga rolls with it. Nevermind that this makes no sense. Nevermind that she never knew anything about him. Nevermind that the person she had a crush on was not even really him, but her idealized image of him that somehow never dissipated after the eighth time he tried to kill her and Naruto both. In fiction, you can write it as whatever you want, because you have that power. But the readers also have the power to call bull**** and give you the finger, so...

 

I guess that's the trick to understanding why the manga turned out to be pretty bad. No one really grew or changed. What happened to them made little impact on where they ended up. Major lack of consequences.

It does need to be pointed out that if Sakura was still in love with Sasuke, Naruto would reject her in this love triangle scenario. I mean it is in the manga. Naruto would only accept her advances if he were shown that she truly chooses him. Whether it's before or after she attempts a relationship with Sasuke. I think the way Naruto was originally written he would do whatever made Sakura completely happy. We were initially shown through most of the manga that he loved her that much.

 

However, the end showed us that all of this is moot. Naruto never confessed and never gave Sakura a second option. he instead settled for his back-up and married her. And that relationship is described as being meh. Sakura she supposedly got her gold medal and he continues to treat her like rusted tin. So maybe if Naruto had confessed and Sakura had "settled" for him, It might not have turned out as bad as what we got. 

[rocci]

A crush is not love.

It still a romantic feeling.

[Nostradamus]

It still a romantic feeling.

Just so I understand you, if you want to bang someone that means you're in love or have romantic feelings?

So wanting to bang someone=love?

[rocci]

Just so I understand you, if you want to bang someone that means you're in love or have romantic feelings?
So wanting to bang someone=love?

It called lust.
A crush is still have a romantic aspect.