Riverkid

 

Isn't the issue with what you are looking for explicitly run into issues in that the story is not a romance, and doubly so, that Naruto could not understand if his feelings were platonic or romantic? That essentially answers the why you do not see the piece you require, though I stand that this piece is not a necessity of the ending's valid. 

So we can have a narrative intent of where Sakura wantsa relationship with Sasuke. where Hinata wants a relationship with Naruto. Karin also showing some sort of hints towards Sasuke. But when it comes to Naruto you pull out the "there are no romance" - card.. i got it, you got nothing in your hands to support your argumentation you stated at the beginning. Thx for revealing it

No, none of those make sense because of narrative intent. I could cross off each of those as being explicitly platonic or being later shut down as anything more then that, for those that had hopeful tones. 

 

There's an argument that you can snip away part two, and while some major things would be missing (Sasuke's return, Neji's death, Sai, Naruto becoming Hokage), three of the pairings would line up.  That said, I am going to leave that as a statement (Purposefully student, yes!) and focus on one scene. When you present more questions I will go back and actually build up on that point. See, rather than detail all of part one I am going to attempt to show you through just one arc's chapter.

 

You are looking for an explicit sorts of "I have feelings for this person", The Last gives you this, but it also says they were always there. The manga is more subtle. 

Im not looking for a "I have feelings for this person"-Moment. You said that there are enough details within the 700Chapter-Story (not "The Last") to justify the ending (+pairing). So i'm asking for the details. I want to see pages where we see Naruto working/developing towards a relationship with Hinata. That does not mean that i only want pages where we see Naruto announcing his feelings to someone else. I want to see Naruto having a interest in Hinata, maybe the interest to know about her more. I want to see Naruto getting closer to Hinata (not being closer as an important friend).

 

 

 

Then she gets crushed a moment later, and Naruto sees is full of rising anger. I've seen "What if it was someone else here!", but the simple answer is its not, it was not the plan, and this scene is one of those Kishimoto uses to help cement 700, the other 615. And you know that other scene student.

The simple answer isn't "no". We saw Naruto going 4-Tails because Orochimaru talked badly about Sasuke, and you think it requires 'Hinata' to rise more anger than that ? You could throw in Choji, and when it looks like that he is killed Naruto would also go full rage-mode. Rage/Hate can't be classified towards 'love' just that easily. It looked more of an rage because a friend died while the situation was in his responsibility rather than because of his feeling towards Hinata.

The scene of Obito with Rin being killed is more of an rage because of his feeling towards her. Thats not the same thing with Naruto and Hinata.

You are already setting the tone of this Act without profound reasons, just to support your argumentation.

 

 

 

We get a scene of Naruto, distraught, demanding to know why this has happened. He wasn't enraged before. The only this could be Hinata, and it's clear from the context. We get words from Pain about unquenchable hate, and Naruto not knowing how to face it. This is after Pain talks about Love bringing about hate, comparing Hinata to the loss of his loved ones

Still providing your argumentation with the provided fact by yours that his rage is solely because of his feeling towards Hinata. There are no clear signs of him having a romantic feelings towards Hinata... that would be just absurd in that context. Naruto has a big heart, for all of his friends. He repeats all the time how much he cares for his friends, like a family.. like loved persons. 

This settled stage is just showing the audience what happens when Naruto loses one of his friends while facing an enemy, and not because of his feelings towards Hinata. We already saw that in the Gaara arc, where is seal wasn't that weak as in the Pain-Arc.

Pain killed Jiraiya, destroyed Konoha, killed many comrades and even Kakashi. To think his rage is just because of Hinata.. well.. You really like to ignore the whole scene just to support your argumentation with a tunnelvisioned analysis.


 

 

 

This is not even touching 615, another moment of Naruto reciprocation, in a way. No, there are no romantic overtones, Riverkid, but there is no doubt about Naruto's feelings to her by that time, and the conclusion of 700 with those two should be clear to you. 

So after bringing nothing to the table, you just jump straight to the end and call that 'clear'. how weak.

You can send me a PN if you like, when you found the pages of Naruto working/developing towards a relationship with Hinata. I don't want to see pages of romantic feelings, dont worry. I just want to see a scene, or maybe a dialoge between them where Naruto shows interest in her more than just a friend. 

Or.. you can go back to your "so called" argumentation, and admit that you just talked bulls't to prove your already weak standpoint. 

And yes.. you are hypocritical :-) 

Stop writing so much without context, bring something already on the table which can be accepted as a good argumentation/detail



 

 

Narrative Intent means it -is- in the manga, I.E., the intended meaning of what you read. 

still waiting for the pagenumbers to showcase the narrative intent and development of Naruto and Hinata becoming a couple   

However i dont wait for the pagenumbers, because its clear that there are none in the 700chapter-Manga. The only thing you can provide is the one-sided crush from  Hinata, and the general development between these two. you can find general development between Naruto and Neji, Sakura, Kakashi, Sai, Shikamaru, Tsunade etc. would that make sense if he ends up in a relationship with one of them ?

But because you are a 'god-knows-good'-Writer you are able to feel the 'romantic-sense' within the development. I don't have to repeat the part that you just put up a illusion infront of you.

 

Allow me to quote myself: "Narrative Intent does contribute to the ending making sense, though is not the sole aspect of things for us to derive at that conclusion".

 

So I just elaborated on a prior argument I made, my student. Note the word "meaingful" wasn't used.

Allow me to quote myself : "What a hypocritical person"

The Point is that you stated something, without providing any facts, sources nor argumentations to justify your statement. I dismantle it because you can't just state that there is  'Sense' just because of an excisting narrative Intent. 

You reply with "Its not only narrative Intent, its also the flow and the development". Which is AGAIN just making a statment without providing facts, sources nor argumentation to justify your statement. I repeated myself AGAIN that your statement isn't enough to make a point. All these aspects needs to be done in a right and meaningful way, so it will result in a story with 'SENSE'. That means that YOU have to point out each aspect to WHY it makes sense. 

I pointed you out because you are doing that 24/7. Making a statement to something, without providing facts, sources nor argumentation. However you think it is enough to justify your standpoint all the time, and of course keep repeating that you are a 'Wiriter', as if you don't need to provide something.

And here we are again, despite saying that you should'nt highlight Hinatas one-sided love. 

"Allow me to quote myself: "Narrative Intent does contribute to the ending making sense, though is not the sole aspect of things for us to derive at that conclusion".

So I just elaborated on a prior argument I made, my student. Note the word "meaingful" wasn't used.

To elaborate, using NH as an example, even early on you get a lot of panels that showcase her reactions and feelings to things. Particularly in the Chuunin Exams, this gets an unusually amount of emphasis. I wonder why no one thinks "Why is he doing that?" This is Narrative Intent saying: "These feelings probably are important to something". You also get this before Hinata enters the fight. This is foreshadowing at work, a build up for the ultimate intention of her entrance. But you know, no one counts those side panels and discards them as meaningless, but they do so too quickly, I fear. "

Do you understand why i didn't want you to bring up Hinatas one-sided love during the 700chapter Story? because it was clear since her appearence that she has a crush on Naruto. Since she has a crush on Naruto its just self-explained that she dreams/hopes to be in a realtionship with him... you don't even have to call that a 'build-up' or 'foreshadowing', its within her Characterdesign.

A relationship build-up needs to be done from both sides, just in case you forgot that there are 2 People participating within a relationship. Why would a relationship make sense just because 1 Person has a ONE-SIDED love to someone else ? It would make sense if the other person realize that and also start to fall in love with that said person. Did that happen? 

Is there a narrative Intent of Naruto, or maybe even some flows or development which maybe hints his growing feelings towards Hinata? No. So it doesn't make sense. It make sense after the movie 'The last' but you were talking about the end of the 700chapter-Naruto.

You can prove me otherwise if you start to highlight the pages where we can see some sort of development from Naruto, however after asking it twice you aren't able, instead you come to me with some 'Hinata-moments' despite me already saying that this won't be enough.

You did nothing yet, just repeating and misleading things without any sense. You can't bring any soruces of Naruto, so you brag about how the feelings and the build-up from Hinata is already enough to provide sense in the end-game. Thats your way of debating, pointless and weak.

 

 

 

Relationship develompent would? There's no romance in Naruto, only 699 is romantic "development" with SS, so I wonder what you are asking student. 

 

Also where are you getting your Kishimoto referenced statements? This is the second one that is perplexing. He didn't focus on romance in Naruto, as I've said time and time again. That is what the Last is for. But the build up of their relationship to make 700 makes sense is a seperate issue, it does not crutch on that romance development happening, but there's enough growth to make it that it  did happen make sense. 

So can i get this straight? You just highlighted for me moments where Hinata shows romantic feelings towards Naruto, and you even 'stated' that this is enough as a 'build-up'/'foreshadowing' for them to become a pairing at the end with 'Sense'. Since it makes Sense FOR YOU there is obvous a narrative intent, flow and development between these two characters to justify the ending. Now you are saying that there is no 'romance' in Naruto ?

If there is no 'romance' in Naruto, how can you tell that the pairing at the end make sense?

There is romance, whether or not its stated in the genre, whether Kishimoto states that or not. If you see a Character with romantic drive and ambitions towards a other character, which even leads to situations like putting his life at risk to safe Naruto.. and still stating that 'romance' have no place within the story...well, then you are not only hyprocitical, but also.... puh... i dont know. What would you call Sakuras state towards Sasuke? no-romance relationship? its a one-sided crush (ROMANCE) which is even highlighted multiple times through out the story, even if it doesn't make any sense.

Believe me, the only depressing thing here is you.



 

 

1: Or perhaps it did not stand in contradiction. Or perhaps I did not twist it, and it's just a reflection of what you wrote you are seeing, and you don't like it, but it's what you mean. Or maybe I have real argumentation. Much easier to go with the last, student. 

 

2: Narrative Intent is one aspect. Narrative Flow is another. Development as well. All three of these make the ending make sense. Even if the ending -didn't- make sense. I.E., it's clear that the author intended for NH and SS to happen in 700, with all the clues sputtered about. That is one aspect of it making sense, and that is ubiquitously there. Hey, I didn't doge your question. Never really have.

 

3: Ah, you are asking To demonstrate this in a way that suggests a pursuit of romantic love, but the metric of development does not necessitate that Naruto consciously pursue her in a romantic way, merely that their relationship has weight and development. This I can teach you student. We need to set up the basis of how it began, though it will be a pain in the neck due to how difficult the older chapters are to find, so I'll come back to edit this. But first, we must  naturally Chapter 39 page 7 sets up Naruto's initial tone towards her. We can both agree that this initial thoughts is not the final tone he has towards her correct, that this changes and develops, I hope? If so you are already on the road of understanding, and I will illustrate the remainder points soon with page sources as per your desire. 

Or perhaps you can just admit it when several people pointing it out as contradiction ? You need to be less stubborn.

----------------------------------------------------

First: You say that Narrative Intent is the aspect to make an 'ending' meaningful

Now: You say that its Narrative Intent, Flow and development. So you just weakend your argumentation by yourself

However its still not true. Narrative Intent, flow and developement doesn't make something automatically more 'sense'. Everything done in the right and meaningful way makes it. So your statement is false from being with, and your didn't provide facts to why the 'narrative intent' made the Story meaningful.. because you never try to bring facts or real argumentations.. 

You just write something down, hoping no one will dismantle it and support your opinion this way. Its the same with "im a writer, i know that". Its just to make up for the lack of facts and argumentations you can't pull out.

-----------------------------------------------------

i didn't asked about the 'metric' of a general development. I asked about the metric of a romantic-development. because you said there are enough details to why the NH-Ending make sense, so i assume that there will be enough romantic-development between these too.. what else would develop them to a pairing if not in the romantical way? 

Why was only in 'the Last' real romantical development between these two, which weren't one sided from Hinata ? Kishimoto admitted that there was a huge lack of romantical development to justify the relationship of his protagonist, so he did the movie. When the Writer himself says that there wasn't enough development within the 700chapter-story, how can you just brag out that there was enough details? 

-----------------------------------

you know what i remember else? that you are a complete timewaste. still aren't able to answer my questions, just writing your own nonsense like  'make-up' to hide the lack of everything in your argumentation.
 

I'm snarky today. Apologies in advance. 

 

 

1: No, my crucial argument is not my expertise. It never has been. That is your words, not mine. I can prove real argumentation has been provided, making your next point blatantly false, though the rest is subjective tones on your part. Feel free to have that opinion, my student. 

 

2: There are so many things wrong with your adaptation. First off, we are saying Orochimaru equals Al Quiada? They have very different aims, so equating to that organization doesn't work. Equating real world Sasuke to this world is going to be problematic anyway. His whole clan death, his brother's literal manipulation. How would you even compute that happening in real life? Are we putting them in military school? SS -works- within the setting it is in, it is alive and formed around it. Try rewriting -all- of the SS story and it's background elements to fit real life. You'll start struggling at "Sharingan". You also failed to demonstrate substantial narrative intent in your example. I.E., foreshadowing of the end.

 

3: Chuunin Exams anyone? Pain Arc? The War-Arc? Did you miss the panels? Do you need page numbers, my student?

 

4: Please be respectful to the teacher. This is why we are talking now in detention. 

1. outside of that, you have no real argumentions.. oh wait, i do remember where u re-wrote my argumentation and added something on top of them. I also do remember when u claimed something which stood in contradiction to something else you wrote. but meh.. you didnt' even tried to admit it after pointing it out for you.. you just twisted it again in your way.

2. you still try to dodge the question, like the question to provide the details for the end. Does it make sense just because its within the narrative intent ?

3. Pls send me the page numbers where enough details was provided to settle up the end-game romance between Naruto and Hinata. And no, its not enough if you only show the one-sided love from hinata throuhg out the 700 chapters. i want to see where Naruto thinks about his feelings towards Hinata, i want to see where Naruto shows any interest about Hinatas feeling towards him..

can't wait to see another reply where u still dodge all of my questions, you rather waste your time re-writing anything..

 

1: It was a joke, I typically use it when technical aspects of writing are at play and I essentially say: Hey, I have expertise on this.

 

2: Also joke. 

The Joke doesn't change the fact that you always use that phrase as your 'crucial'  argument  ?  So i don't understand the need of you to point it out as a joke. You can have experience of writing over 2-3 years, the chance is still big there that someone makes a better story with his first attempt. Pls stop overrating your knowledge of writing when you haven't provided anything near impressive or analytical to some of the debated topics. You fail to provide real argumentation and just twist things around to be it your way, despite most of the things doesn't even make sense or stand in contradiction to eachother. Im not even the only one who points out your nonsense argumentations you always try to bring along

The only thing you provide is textbook-knowledge, and even there you fail to execute the basics.

 

 

 

Yes, actually, Narrative Intent does contribute to the ending making sense, though is not the sole aspect of things for us to derive at that conclusion. However, you -cannot- say it came out of nowhere, due to Narrative Intent.

Let me write a romance-adaptation of Naruto within the real world

where the crush (Sasuke) of Sakura is joining al-Qaida, attacking the European-Union, trying to attack Sakuras friends, familymembers and neighbors, also trying to kill her twice... and the story ends with both of them being together, and not even forced from Sasuke.

Does that make sense just because the narrative intent was heading towards that end ? If everything makes sense within the narrative intent, then that means there are no logical issues in any story.

 

 

 

Naruto could not make out if he felt platonic or romantic love

Thats the whole point. because we get to know almost nothing to how he felt about Hinata  within the 700 chapters. So where are the details ? you pointed out that there are 'enough' details... im still asking you... where are they ?
 

 

 

Makes baseless statement about what matters to me, presents it as proof

Not my fault girl.. you are the one making baseless statements all the time, seeling them as 'argumentations' to the debate.

 

 

 

Throws insult at conclusion of speech rather than concluding with a strong point

Insult? dont be silly. Why even trying to make a strong point if you twist it in your way anyways at the end ?

Have fun re-writing everything in your way
 

but continue your 'im a writier, i know this argumentation.. it failed already in the past multiple times

 

Fixed. 

the fact that you need to use that phrase because you aren't able to support your argumentations otherwise is just exposing you.

Feel free to 'fix' everything in you way, you really need it to enjoy your illusion of twisting contra-argumentations against you around to confirm yourself that you are right.

 

 

 

I could have -still- concluded they did not make sense, but as above, there is narrative intent

narrative intent = making sense ? What are you telling to yourself? that there is a narrative intent so it has to make sense? or are you just writing it in your way to highlight for other people that you are "of course and again" in the right mind to debate about it properly

 

 

 

 The conclusion is that it makes sense, because it was detailed. If it wasn't, it wouldn't have. This is not subjectivity, this is actual data collecting to understand why the ending was as it was.

detailed? what? until chapter 700 Naruto never felt 'love' for Hinata, they didn't even talked about that topic in the slightest. Do you even know that there was a huge timeskip between 699 and 700 (pairings) ?, so how is that detailed ? Kishimoto even wrote a Movie (the Last) because of the reason that the development lacked "detail" and depth

keep going writing anything in your way, even if it doesn't make sense.. because the only thing that matters is you feeling comfortable with the 'argumentations' you try to bring up. 

what a hypocritical person

Critics occasionally give a film multiple viewings to help give their thoughts out from things they may have missed on a first showing. A second showing also allows them to look at it more analytically than the first time. This is true for music as well as stories.

Critics only have one purpose.. and thats criticizing the subject. Pointing out the flaws and the ups of the subject based on experience, comparison, knowledge and interpretation. creating different viewing based on critics are just after-effects.

How ironic that 'critics' aren't able to give you a different viewing on that matter, well.. maybe because we are short-mined on that matter.. aren't we? i also wouldn't have a different view if my head was stucked in kishimotos a'ss

but continue your 'im a writier, i know this' nonsense argumentation.. it failed already in the past multiple times




 

ds

 

You mentioned the Dark Knight, which is character driven. Your explanation shows you don't understand the difference between plot and character driven. It is Batman's existence, the very essence of who his character is, that makes the plot possible. Thus, it is -character- driven, and you see both external and internal struggles with the character for this reason. The plot fails if you change aspects of batman, his morality, his upbringing .It falls apart. Joker only comes into play, because of the Dark Knight. 

 

You are correct that Sasuke is not Plot Driven, the story he is a part of is, or rather, to say things correctly. If I change Sasuke with another generic friend of Naruto that went rogue, largely, things would be similiar for his subplots...because all we get to drive it is "Here's a mission". I gave an example of how it matches the plot driven definition. Sasuke does act as part of the plot for Naruto's view as a target to acquire, but in Sasuke's own subplots? They're not character driven. Your definition also makes no sense because characters aren't plot or character driven, it's the story itself that has the form or not. The plot is largely driving things. 

 

And here's the shocking thing: Yes, Sasuke not going with Orochimaru would change things, but this is still all external, the opportunity itself formed by plot, -not- character. Saying if Batman didn't help gotham against Joker things would stay the same largely misses the point: and misrepresents the situation Joker was doing these things because of batman anyway, because of -his- character. 

 

 

You have yet to disprove that the story here is not plot driven, nor match up your definition to the accepted forms of plot and character driven, as you keep tying it to a character, which is probably why you are missing the actual form. This is why to me it seems you are complaining about it being plot driven, because it makes no sense to say that a character is supposed to be plot or character driven. 

" It is Batman's existence, the very essence of who his character is, that makes the plot possible"
"  The plot fails if you change aspects of batman, his morality, his upbringing .It falls apart"

Do you even read your own stuff? You talk about his Characterdesign. What do you think are the themes of a Marvel/DC story ? Its the (Anti-)Hero vs the Villain. Good vs Evil. Batman needs to be Batman to fit in the theme. However the theme doesn't determine the drive of the Plot.

In "Batman Begings" he is the driving force of the Plot, because the Plot is decided around his actions. He decides to dissapear from the society, finding a place to start his training. He decides to go back to Gotham to start his new life as 'Batman', fighting the criminals inside of the city. Its more a Story about Bruce Wayne becoming the Batman, thos self-explained is Characterdrive.

Thats not the case in "The Dark Knight". He already is Batman, He already is trying to keep the Order in Gotham. Thats what the current state of Gotham is until Joker appears to drive the Plot in a different direction, where Batman fails to keep the order and gotham falls into Chaos. Thats because of the Joker, and Batman is reacting towards Jokers moves/decisions, trying to stop him.

"Sasuke does act as part of the plot"

He acts to service the Plot.. thats how he is part of the 'Plot'. He does questionable decisions without good or any reasoning, and all his decisions provide the perfect act for Kishimoto to support his intention of the following flow. Thats what i call "acts to service the plot". 

Kishimoto: "I need a something, so Naruto (Konoha) and Sasuke will head towards a conflicht against each other"
-> "Well, let Sasuke join Akatsuki so he continues his dark-path"

Kishimoto "I need something for Naruto and Sasuke to compete at the end, to give the fight a profound meaning"
-> "Well, let Sasuke also attend for the titel as Hokage, or maybe even for the soul of the world"

Kishimoto "I need something to force a Kage-summit, to build up the Moon-plan with the following War"
-> "Well, let Sasuke attack Killer-Bee so the Raikage can summon an Kage-summit"

Kishimoto "I need to show that Sasuke is 'evil' and sticked to his path"
-> "Sasuke randomly attacks his former teammates after seeing them for the first time after 3 years, putting his goal 'rebuilding his clan' at risk with such a move"

Its more than obvious how Sasuke is used as a puppet to drive the flow of the Plot.

------------------------------------

This will be my last reply to this topic. You are propably the biggest Kishimoto-Fan i ever met. Tryharding so much to defend his writing, ridiculous.

 "Your explanation shows you don't understand the difference between plot and character driven."

I mean, you use the 'Characterdesign' of Batman as a standpoint to why the Plot is Characterdriven.. kek

You fail to execute your 'knowledge' about writing, but atleast you call yourself a 'writer' infront of others :-)

dont bother your time writing an reply where you will just continue exposing yourself as someone who can't add things properly, despite all the arguments, facts and comparisons. I wont read your reply anyways, have a nice day.



 

The problem with one is you remove the context that drove him to develop towards each reason. With just the panels, it seems random. With the story behind them, it isn't. 

 

But on the Naruto issue, just as much as it is true that Sasuke is familiar with Konoha, Konoha is also familiar with him. 

 

More or less Sasuke is a villain? There are reasons to give Sasuke empathy, but they never outshadow it to the point that you pick his side. 

 

I'm not going to argue that Sasuke wasn't well executed, Sasuke wasn't, nor each bond element of Team 7 either initially between eachother, and you are welcome to your opinion that Sasuke is the worst character, though it's false that he's just there to set up the next stage. 

 

That Naruto just defeated Pain kind of puts a dent in let's just attack again! That Kisame gets defeated later reinforces that further. 

 

Anyway, skipping to the last part, that's not true.

 

When your Screenplay revolves around a singular character, a lot of focus is going to be on that character. You aren't going to see nor have time to flesh out every other character around them, particularly when the cast is large. It will get bogged down and hinder the plot. This was the issue actually with the Sasuke elements, and more general, the Uchiha. It helped to bog down the plot. Kishimoto liked those elements, and so did fans in Japan, but that was a consequence of it. 

The only problem here is you denying facts.

Its you telling: "it seems random. with the story behind them ,it isn't". Like you want to convince me that there is a reason behind it, but you can't show it to me. You basically just say "with the story behind them, it isnt'" like you are sure to 100% that there is a profound meaning combined with empathy to why sasuke choose those decisions, however you aren't able to prove that point.

You relax way to much on your over-confidence opinion that you doesn't even feel the need to support your opinion with argumentation and facts, you just write it  down (like: "it seems random, with the story behind them, it isnt'") and leave it like that.

I could analyze you all 50 chapters, and it would still be summed up towards:
- Tobi promised power
- Sasuke joins Akatsuki
- Sasuke doing an unneccesary act without getting benefits, and not coming 1 inch closer to his goal
- leaves akatsuki and doesnt even want the promised power anymore

I already analyzed the whole conversation between Sasuke and Tobi about Itachis truth where many things were just bad-scripted.

You are just doing the same thing as in the other thread, not bringing any argumentation and just tries to debate against other opinions rather than about Naruto.

 

 

1: One has some inaccuracies, as after Killer B was killed, he was heading to Konoha. On his way to Konoha, Tobi explains the situation to hhim, and the plan changes to kill Danzo. He was never really with Akatsuki, more working for them, but did not fully intend to be their pawn either. That what Tobi was sending him to do after Killer B more or less worked with his own goals made it an agreeable compromise. That's also not ranodm, as a character is making active decisions. That he also does not say in that context either does not help your point either, his path is largely the same, but altered by the going on of events. 

 

2: Two is problematic because there is no Konoha, as it was just destroyed. Naruto's greater concern was Sasuke's name at the time. That ninja were still available within the ninja points it far from defenseless. That the only primary group interested in destroying Konoha was Sasuke, who averted his direction because it was already destroyed, puts things in perspective.

 

3: Three has major issues as well. On Sakura, with Sasuke absent and unreachable, and a major character she is going to have more things to focus on? This scope is not reverted, because you do not take the context at the end of Sasuke being so focused on, being the chief antagonist at the end. If this is a jab at 699, it is also a bit silly, because the context of the situation revolves around Sasuke's departure, so of course Sakura acts accordingly. That Sakura does not do a revolve around Sasuke in the Last is telling. He will always be a part of that character, though, and when that is brought into focus, you cannot call it a reversion, because it was always there.

 

Hinata is another issue as well. First, the manga is about Naruto. So you're not going to see what Hinata does in non-Naruto moments simply because she's 1: A supporting Character, who often channel right into the Main Character, and 2: The Love-Interest. There could have always been more development, a Team 8 Arc, so to speak. But the danger of that was Kishimoto would then have to tip his hand more, and he probably didn't want to do that as we see the pairings resolve at the end. When a story is about X character, this is pretty common? It's not solely in that they ignore everyone else either, as we see Hinata express concern to other things. But if it didn't focus on Naruto, it would naturally either mean the character was important, with the plot having focus on them (I.E., the Last, where in the latter Acts she is in Toneri's castle working without focus on Naruto), backstory, or just making the wrong move of focusing on things that do not push forward the plot. 

I guess i will have to show you step by step.



Here it begins. Tobi offers 'power' for Sasuke if he decides to work with Akatsuki.



Sasuke clearly shows his interest towards the nine-tails (Naruto). Sasuke wants to crush Konoha -> which means killing the Elders, villagers and the shinobis too (including Naruto). Why in hell should Sasuke take care of the 8th tails? 

Sasuke wants to crush Konoha. Akatsuki wants to caputre the 9th-tail. So why isn't Sasuke going towards Konoha, and Akatsuki takes care of Killer-Bee ? Sasuke knows Konoha better, knows the ninjas better, and knows Naruto better than anyone else in Akatsuki... and Sasuke even agrees on that? wow... what a time-wasting task for him to do



Oh, now he decides to head towards Konoha? well, why not heading towards Konoha in the first place ? instead wasting his time with Killer-Bee. Does he get anything from Akatsuki before heading towards Konoha?Nop.  So where are those benefits for Sasuke by joining Akatsuki ? 

Here it is




Sasuke doesn't want the Power anymore.. great. So Sasuke wasted his time for almost 45 chapters doing something he got nothing out of it. Akatsuki didn't helped him capturing Killer-Bee, and he doesnt want the help from Akatsuki heading towards Konoha. Why joining Akatsuki in the first place? 



He joined Akatsuki just to left Akatsuki after 50 chapters. And why? because kishimoto forced Sasuke to do something completly unneccesary just so he can turn Sasuke into the most-wanted criminal to set up the next act. He didn't care how 'well' or 'bad' he is going to write the development for this stage, the only thing that mattered was the outcome at the end, and well.. he got his outcome how he wanted it to be. Does that make his writing good just because his intention of turning sasuke into a villain was achieved? hell no. 

If you want a well-written Character (especially a well-written Antagonist or Anti-Hero) then you need 'empathy'. How do you want to understand Sasukes decision when  he does nonsense most of the time like joining Atasuki? ... heck, even believing Tobi was already nonsense.. or not going back towards Konoha after killing Orochimaru.

Sasuke is one of the worst written Character in the entire story. Because kishimoto mainly uses him to create a specific outcome to set up the next stage, no matter how he does it. You clearly can feel the used force from the writer to drive this Character, when in fact as a 'reader' you shouldn't notice that force.. that force should be replaced with 'empathy' 

Without the empathy its like "oh, he is doing something, because.. eh.. i dont know. oh wait! they going to expla.. wait, that doesnt make sense ? well.... i guess the writer wants it this way"
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"That the only primary group interested in destroying Konoha was Sasuke"

So we just remove Tobi, Kisame and Zetsu out of our Head? Because they are part of Akatsuki, and Akatsuki just destroyed Konoha. So why should we stop thinking that Tobi, Kisame or Zetsu wouldn't plan another attack on Konoha? Because Naruto still wasn't captured? And they need him for the moon plan.

They have no idea where Tobi is, and what he is doing next.. so why not assuming that the attemps another try to attack Konoha and trying to capture Naruto? or maybe one of his friends as a lure? 

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"Sakura, with Sasuke absent and unreachable, and as a major character she is going to have more things to focus on?"

and how did it affect her as a Character ? in a good way. Her character peaked at the beginning of Part 2 after the time-skip. Even some fans started to like her more because she finally filled her charactervolume to a good extend with such a big and important screenplay.

"This scope is not reverted, because you do not take the context at the end of Sasuke being so focused on, being the chief antagonist at the end"

"So you're not going to see what Hinata does in non-Naruto moments"

It doesn't matter what Sasuke is doing, and it doesn't matter what Hinata is doing in non-Naruto moments.

"Screenplay" is the room where a Character excist. Hinata can be the greatest and smartes Ninja in Naruto, however if she only is used to be shy and only thinking about Naruto in the Screenplay.. well, then she is a restricted Character who revolves only around Naruto in her room of characterplay. 

The Screenplay after the Timeskip of Sakura improved because it wasn't 1/2-dimensional.. it was a bit more complex. 
It turned back to be a 1/2-dimensional Screenplay. 

- thinking about Sasuke, even when nursing injured shinobis
- feeling sad and hurt when Sasuke is treating her bad
- Naruto being angry about Sasuke because he is treating Sakura bad
- Sakura making the fake-confession, well.. because of Sasuke

Of course there were moments which didn't include Sasuke-moments. And of course there might be a lot moments outside of the screenplay where Sakura wasn't thinking about Sasuke.. yes.. but the screenplay was 70% towards Sasuke focused, and the screenplay is her characterplay. Her character tunnelvisioned towards Sasuke like in Part-1.


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Its like in all post-chapter-discussions. Fans coming out of every corner.. trying to defend the Naruto-Product. Using tissues to fix the holes in the sinking ship. No matter how bad the written-Stage, the written-Character, the retcons, the plotholes etc.. they always try to find a way defending this work

Sasuke joins Akatsuki for a reason, so "randomly" is " is also incorrect

Here is what happened. Sasuke killed Itachi. Tobi make up a story to convince Sasuke thad Danzo (the elders) are bad guys. Sasuke could have just head to konoha and attack the elders, but he refused this path. Instad he joins Aktasuki so he is given the task to attack Killer-Bee. He attacked (captured) Killer Bee. He then left Akatsuki to head to Knoha with Team Taka where he got stoped again because Tobi appeared to tell him that he failed his task to capture Killer Bee.

So in the end, he gained 0 Benefits with his move joining Akatsuki. Instead he also wasted his time with tasks like attacking Killerbee which didn't even helped him with his goal towards Danzo and the elders. Tobi wasn't even trying to help him with his goal, while Sasuke tried to help him with the moon plan. There is absolutly no reasons to why Sasuke should have joined akatsuki

You know how Kishimoto could have justify this act? By letting Tobi say: "Here is the plan Sasuke, you should join Akatsuki and capture Killer Bee for me. Because of that, and because of the impulsive personality of the Raikage he will be forced to summon a Kage-summit where Danzo will also take part with. That means that Danzo whill be vulnerable on his way with only some guards protecting him, and you wouldn't be forced to attack fromer members too"

That would have been a good reason for him to join, howver kishimoto missed that opportunity and decided for "something else" to let him join. That "something else" is just questionable and doesn't make sense for Sasuke. 
 

Naruto heading again to protect Sasuke while Akatsuki just destroyed his village, and still hasn't 0 control over his Power", the control over his power is addressed shortly after the Kage Summit arc

Yes it was adressed, but that wasn't the initial reason for the Kage summit. It was more or less just about Sasuke because he captured Killer-Bee. Naruto knew that the kage summit was about Sasuke mainly, so he left Konoha again to talk with the Raikage. Naruto was a Hero now, and the Village got destroyed. How can he just leave it like that for 'Sasuke' when 'Akatsuki' is still out there and the villagers needs him the most. Naruto just being selfish again with his obsessed goals to chase someone instead really putting his focus on more important things.

The Kage-summit changed their concerns towards Naruto and Killer-Bee only because Tobi appeard, to tell them about the Moon-Plan. So Tobi just took the focus towards him by tellingthem how a big of a threat he is.

 

Sakura digressed to part one Sakura (She didn't)

She did. The Focus of her Character slowly tunnelvisioned again towards Sasuke. That already caused her bad Characterdesign in Part-1 where she was one of the most hated Character because of her tunnelvisioning. She did it again, just with the exception that she was strong and helpfull to support Naruto and the Alliance in the battle. Outside of that it was just how she felt about Sasuke and the situation..

feeling sad during a war just because Sasuke didn't noticed her is so cringeworthy, i can't understand how kishimoto allows something like that in his writing. Naruto even forced to cheer her up feels like a kindergarden-Arc rather than a War-arc

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He wouldn't have needed a Timeskip to develop those ideas, you are right. However i think that would extend the Story too much.. unless he got the motivation to extend the Story to a 'One-Piece'- level. 

 

 

But I am debating about Naruto. I think you're taking this too personally, or with too much emotion, if you believe I am debating against you just to debate against you. 

 

A happy end is perfectly doable with Sasuke, as it is with. You charged Sasuke with all these murders he...actually didn't do? Let's agree the guy did mistakes, was a bad person, but the Sasuke that leaves at 699 is a different person. He did time, that which is unstated (Giving a weight of time may have helped or hurt it more). 

 

I never said giving the Protagonist to achieve everything he wanted was how to make a good end. I did say though, that Naruto is well...about Naruto? 

 

On your last part, you tap into why Jirayai going missing probably doesn't work as well as Jirayai dying or being eternally handicapped. My point is there isn't one way to do things, and with proper motivated illustration and execution, you have multiple ideas to work with which you don't even have to kill characters off. 

Have a nice day too :-)

I made the Post for someone else, not to debate with you.. despite i saw your reply coming, trying to defend yourself. Perhaps because i hit the nail with my Post :--)

Your argumentations are the same, as always.

"Without Sasuke, there would be no Happy End..  But daddy Kishimoto wants a happy end.. so its the best ending"

A good story is a good Story. Gving the Protagonist all the power, and let him achieve everything he wants doesnt automatically make the story a good one.. lol.

Btw... there is a difference if you let Jiraiya never be found. Naruto wouldn't had the drive to stop/kill Pain, and would instead maybe go on a adventure looking for Jiraiya... just explains that you don't even know what u write for yourself.

I will stop here debating with you, its a waste of time (already said that). i prefer debating about Naruto instead with someone who just wants to debate against me.