125 replies to this topic

[Freakazoid]

That happened well over a hundred chapters prior to the incident where Sasuke recalls his old teammates while fighting Kribee. He is shown as been able to be remorseful as he recalls the bonds he shared with his old teammates while in fight that required teamwork from Team Hebi/Falcon.

One single panel in all of part 2. If Naruto or Sakura were to raise a fist to stop him from harming Danzo or anyone else he swore revenge on, he wouldn't hesitate to try and kill them.

Even after the whole Killer Bee fight he was going to the leaf in order to DESTROY it, not just Danzo, the ENTIRE freakin village. That includes Naruto and Sakura, plus many more that had nothing to do with what he's angry about. He only didn't go there because Madara just informed him several chapters ago that it was already gone.

[True]

One single panel in all of part 2. If Naruto or Sakura were to raise a fist to stop him from harming Danzo or anyone else he swore revenge on, he wouldn't hesitate to try and kill them.

The possibility of that actually happening is never so I see no need to argue against it. It's like saying your best friend would defend the murderer of your parents if you ever confronted him/her and you wouldn't tell them to get out of the way.

Even after the whole Killer Bee fight he was going to the leaf in order to DESTROY it, not just Danzo, the ENTIRE freakin village. That includes Naruto and Sakura, plus many more that had nothing to do with what he's angry about. He only didn't go there because Madara just informed him several chapters ago that it was already gone.

Yeah that was his first initial reaction. When someone usually hears something devastating that impacts their life their first inclination/natural reaction is to do what your instinct tells you, and someone like Sasuke who gets ruled by his emotions let his anger take over and make that statement of destroying Konoha. However with the advice of an adult (Madara) he rationalized his thinking and decided to target those specifically responsible for the task of killing his family--that being Danzou. This development of his character makes perfect sense. When you get upset over something you don't think logically at first, but after calming down and assessing the situation you rationalize what you plan to do, so Konoha -> Council -> Danzou is legit.

[Freakazoid]

The only reason he didn't continue on to the leaf and destroy it along with Danzo is because Madara said it had already been done.

[True]

What are you talking about?

Chapter 404 page 11

He mentioned he was going only after the Elders/Council way before Pain even reached Konoha.

[Freakazoid]

Hmm?

Interesting thoughts for someone just wanting to kill one man.

[True]

Power enough to destroy Konoha, figuratively. Take it as you will since it's up to the reader to interpret as a lot of Sasuke's actions usually are. And at the current time Konoha is already destroyed and he is going after Danzou, so I don't see a reason to bring up a point that was made many chapters ago. That's just latching onto old points.

[Freakazoid]

Power enough to destroy Konoha, figuratively. Take it as you will since it's up to the reader to interpret as a lot of Sasuke's actions usually are. And at the current time Konoha is already destroyed and he is going after Danzou, so I don't see a reason to bring up a point that was made many chapters ago. That's just latching onto old points.

LOL!

The point I was making is that is what he was going to do, if it had not been destroyed he would have attempted it himself. The only reason he didn't is because it was already gone.

You don't just compare your power to how many villages you can destroy for the lulz. It's because that is what he wanted to do.

Edited by Freakazoid, 25 August 2009 - 11:48 AM.

[True]

That's your interpretation and I can't change that. As you've said before it was his inclination to attack Konoha but seeing as how Konoha is already destroyed he still continues his goal of killing Danzou. Whatever he said prior to the current time line doesn't matter since he is actually going after to kill Danzou---the setup villain. Actions speak louder than words after all.

[Freakazoid]

That's your interpretation and I can't change that. As you've said before it was his inclination to attack Konoha but seeing as how Konoha is already destroyed he still continues his goal of killing Danzou. Whatever he said prior to the current time line doesn't matter since he is actually going after to kill Danzou---the setup villain. Actions speak louder than words after all.

Apparently.

Just because Konoha was already destroyed before he could get there doesn't just dismiss his motives.

[Nate River]

That's your interpretation and I can't change that. As you've said before it was his inclination to attack Konoha but seeing as how Konoha is already destroyed he still continues his goal of killing Danzou. Whatever he said prior to the current time line doesn't matter since he is actually going after to kill Danzou---the setup villain. Actions speak louder than words after all.

Yeah, Pain solved the problem for him. Unless he openly states that goal to Naruto (or Madara does it for him) it completely meaningless from Naruto's perspective because he has no idea it ever happened.

If Naruto's village and friends do not possess this knowledge how does it effect their opinion of him? At best, it would effect the audiences view of the believability of any redemption.

Ultimately, if that's a defining moment that makes Sasuke a villain its incredibly weak. His anger is deliberately maniuplated and steared by one of the series clear villians back toward his village and directly at another clear villain at a time when he's emotionally vulernable. Moroever, the one sentiment he has expressed doesn't mesh with a previous statement and his goal is rendered nearly moot before he can actually do anything to accomplish it and before the heroes ever find out about it.

Apparently.

Just because Konoha was already destroyed before he could get there doesn't just dismiss his motives.

True, but if the point is to portray Sasuke as villanous why render the goal moot before anyone of consequence finds out it about and before he takes a single significant act in furtherance of it? I think it better represents his hatred of the village and those he believed wronged him as opposed to outright villainy.

If that was Kishi's intent then its weak and rather uncompelling.

[Freakazoid]

I guess this debate comes down to the individual's moral stance or however you'd like to word it. If you say Sasuke is just a confused kid, so be it. I believe that line has been crossed long ago, though.

[Rick (Bonta-kun)]

I guess this debate comes down to the individual's moral stance or however you'd like to word it. If you say Sasuke is just a confused kid, so be it. I believe that line has been crossed long ago, though.

I think you are missing the point. I dont think Nate and True are trying to defend Sasuke really, they are trying to show why in the Naruto world, Sasuke wont be considered a villain, especially in Naruto's eyes. Their is very little chance of Naruto giving up on Sasuke, in fact, it definitely wont happen until Sasuke kills or tries to harm someone precious to Naruto, and even if that somehow does happen, I still dont know if Kishi will actually have Naruto give up on him.

Kishi has spent so much time and chapters on Naruto trying to save Sasuke, and I dont think he will let that go to waste with Naruto giving up. Especially when bonds are so important in the Naruto world.

Now, as Nate said, Sasuke's redemption being believable is a totally different question, and one that we cant answer until it actually happens.

[Freakazoid]

I think you are missing the point. I dont think Nate and True are trying to defend Sasuke really, they are trying to show why in the Naruto world, Sasuke wont be considered a villain, especially in Naruto's eyes. Their is very little chance of Naruto giving up on Sasuke, in fact, it definitely wont happen until Sasuke kills or tries to harm someone precious to Naruto, and even if that somehow does happen, I still dont know if Kishi will actually have Naruto give up on him.

Kishi has spent so much time and chapters on Naruto trying to save Sasuke, and I dont think he will let that go to waste with Naruto giving up. Especially when bonds are so important in the Naruto world.

Now, as Nate said, Sasuke's redemption being believable is a totally different question, and one that we cant answer until it actually happens.

Oh, I have no doubt Sasuke will be redeemed in the manga. That's just how things work. I thought they were attempting to defend his actions.

I agree to an extent on Naruto not giving up on him, but... Does it not seem as if Kishimoto has been trying to slap it in our face the past several chapters the weight of Sasuke's actions and how much pain he's caused Naruto? He's handled this situation very differently and almost anyone I talk to agrees that Naruto's a bit insane obsession with Sasuke has really hurt his character.

So while I have little doubts Sasuke will be redeemed, it's also up in the air for me. Just because his actions are dismissed in the manga though doesn't mean they aren't the actions of someone with evil intentions.

[Nate River]

Oh, I have no doubt Sasuke will be redeemed in the manga. That's just how things work. I thought they were attempting to defend his actions.

I agree to an extent on Naruto not giving up on him, but... Does it not seem as if Kishimoto has been trying to slap it in our face the past several chapters the weight of Sasuke's actions and how much pain he's caused Naruto? He's handled this situation very differently and almost anyone I talk to agrees that Naruto's a bit insane obsession with Sasuke has really hurt his character.

So while I have little doubts Sasuke will be redeemed, it's also up in the air for me. Just because his actions are dismissed in the manga though doesn't mean they aren't the actions of someone with evil intentions.

No, I'm not defending him. Him having a bad past doesn't justify his current behavior. I've had that debate with Sasuke fans more than once. There are many people who have a bad pasts who choose to do the right thing.

I'm not even defending his portrayal. I don't like it and I've been a consistent critic of it. So has True. All I was doing what stating what that portrayal was and where I think Kishimoto is going with it.

[Freakazoid]

No, I'm not defending him. Him having a bad past doesn't justify his current behavior. I've had that debate with Sasuke fans more than once. There are many people who have a bad pasts who choose to do the right thing.

I'm not even defending his portrayal. I don't like it and I've been a consistent critic of it. So has True. All I was doing what stating what that portrayal was and where I think Kishimoto is going with it.

I think we've just had a pointless debate for the last couple days then.

[Froot]

Really, guys. I don't know why you are all fighting. Like I said, we're all on the same team.

NaruSaku FTW

Just chill. Peace, people.

[RedDelicious]

I think Sasuke is going to die. (Not that he has to, storywise, but it would be the most fitting for me.) He has pissed off too many people who want him dead. Even if he didn't, his current insanity wouldn't let him rest. Anyone weaker that Sasuke, he treats with contempt. Anyone of equal or stronger strength becomes a threat to his existence (and ego), so conflict is inevitable.

Naruto has been looking to Sasuke for acknowledgement, that they are friends and equal shinobis. I think that as Sasuke is dying, he can let go of the conflict and madness, and finally let Naruto know he much he meant to him. (As a friend, not the other way!! )

Sasuke's death would also raise some interesting issues:
- Talk-no-jutsu would have saved everyone it was used on, except (tragically) the person who meant the most to Naruto
- Naruto would have his most important promise broken
- Naruto and Sakura would have to turn to each other to deal with the grief

I'll go one step further, and hope (predict?) that Sakura will be the one to kill Sasuke. Not outfight him, clearly. But I could see Sasuke dismissively turning his back on her, likely to apply a killing blow to Naruto, which would trigger her response. I like the idea of Sakura causing the breaking of Naruto's promise to her, in order to protect him.

Edited by RedDelicious, 27 August 2009 - 04:06 PM.

[Nadishani]

seriously i don't get how sasuke's death would be great for narusaku. it's not like they're gonna say: 'omg you killed sasuke, you bastards! now let's make out and have insanely hot sex!' because of course that's the best cure for teammate's death. sasuke's death would completely break naruto and sakura. they'll be traumatized at least. last time i checked that wasn't exactly a great reason to hook up.

[Nate River]

I think Sasuke is going to die. (Not that he has to, storywise, but it would be the most fitting for me.) He has pissed off too many people who want him dead. Even if he didn't, his current insanity wouldn't let him rest. Anyone weaker that Sasuke, he treats with contempt. Anyone of equal or stronger strength becomes a threat to his existence (and ego), so conflict is inevitable.

Only if Kishi finds his missing nuts between now and the end of the series.

EDIT: Seriously though, I think the odds of Sasuke dying are nil. When I get home, I'll give more detail as to why.

[Dreamer]

I'll go one step further, and hope (predict?) that Sakura will be the one to kill Sasuke. Not outfight him, clearly. But I could see Sasuke dismissively turning his back on her, likely to apply a killing blow to Naruto, which would trigger her response. I like the idea of Sakura causing the breaking of Naruto's promise to her, in order to protect him.

I actually kinda like that concept you described.