31574 replies to this topic

[James S Cassidy]

To be honest, I think the reason for the discrepancies between the manga and the movie was The Last was not originally suppose to be canon.

 

Or they are trying to retcon it out because more and more people are realizing how it just makes the characters look bad.

I am of strong belief that they started production on Naruto the Last 2 years before the ending and in the process told Kishimoto "We are doing this...your job is to tie it into the manga." Of course, Kishimoto is bad at writing romance so he "tries" to push NH, but it feels so forced and awkward while the NS scenes felt natural.

This is why I believe he had very little hand in The Last cause of how inconsistent it is. Nothing flows into it. 

I don't know what was going on behind the scenes, but it seems to many people had their in hand in the pie.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

Or they are trying to retcon it out because more and more people are realizing how it just makes the characters look bad.
I am of strong belief that they started production on Naruto the Last 2 years before the ending and in the process told Kishimoto "We are doing this...your job is to tie it into the manga." Of course, Kishimoto is bad at writing romance so he "tries" to push NH, but it feels so forced and awkward while the NS scenes felt natural.
This is why I believe he had very little hand in The Last cause of how inconsistent it is. Nothing flows into it. 
I don't know what was going on behind the scenes, but it seems to many people had their in hand in the pie.

I have to agree, James, and it shows too how SP also wasn't too consistent with some of the filler stuff in the anime for the longest time, as well as the way some of the movies were dome.

And I also feel Kishimoto's editors had a hand in the mess too from what they got of people here in the West like on YouTube, so that was something that didn't help matters in the least! All in all, you also see SP trying to do tons of retcons to try to justify what they are doing now, and it's only hurting things, and shows how ruined the Naruto franchise has become.

[Bail o' Lies]

So the market isn't democratic, and that's fine, they try to hold on a really minority, data say so. Why is happening in every platform. Netflix's Cowboy Bebop got axed, Boruto is making really bad, at least the Manga. Why companies just don't realize how much they are losing.

Because, they believe that they already have the current customers "locked in" and want more. The executives are kept being told that going "Woke" will give them the younger audience they want and give them a good reputation. So, even when they are making bad choices like CB live adaptation. They still think they looked good approving of it. 

 

Or they are trying to retcon it out because more and more people are realizing how it just makes the characters look bad.

I am of strong belief that they started production on Naruto the Last 2 years before the ending and in the process told Kishimoto "We are doing this...your job is to tie it into the manga." Of course, Kishimoto is bad at writing romance so he "tries" to push NH, but it feels so forced and awkward while the NS scenes felt natural.

This is why I believe he had very little hand in The Last cause of how inconsistent it is. Nothing flows into it. 

I don't know what was going on behind the scenes, but it seems to many people had their in hand in the pie.

Look at the last and tell me they cared about anyone but Hinata looking bad.

 

Again, I think they were originally just angling it to make nH canon in the anime. But then, they quickly got the executives to support them, because the execs wanted one ending, and they said that nH was what the international audience wanted.

 

What I meant by finalized is that they made it clear to Kishimoto that he wasn't even allowed to have NS happen in the manga and that both nH and SS had to happen.

 

The only thing that "flows" into the Last was the sudden adding in of the Six Path Sage's brother that was the hyuuga ancestor who looked very much like Neji. Which went into as you say it was Kishi's job to tie the last's story to the manga.

 

That's why I always say companies or executives because, there are at least three that had their hand in this: Shueisha, TVTokyo, and BandaiNamco. We can't really know who did what other then guessing, but I suspect the ones in Shueisha had the final say in going through with it; that's about it.

Edited by Bail o' Lies, 12 December 2021 - 08:33 PM.

[James S Cassidy]

Look at the last and tell me they cared about anyone but Hinata looking bad.

They cared about NH which means they don't want Hinata to look like the back-up plan. 

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

They cared about NH which means they don't want Hinata to look like the back-up plan. 

And also had to make Sakura a liar and terrible woman, same with Naruto becoming the ultimate scumbag just for the sake of ruining what they had in development just to justify that Hinata wasnt the backup plan, when all it really shows is she WAS the backup plan!

[Chatte]

The Last is a disservice to all Naruto characters tho. Hell, if they wanted to go with NH they should've shown more respect to the pairing. Instead,t hey made them both look like terrible people.

Had NaruSaku become canon like that, I'd be fuming!

[Phantom_999]

You’d want to go on the debate thread then. I had something to say about that

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

The Last is a disservice to all Naruto characters tho. Hell, if they wanted to go with NH they should've shown more respect to the pairing. Instead,t hey made them both look like terrible people.
Had NaruSaku become canon like that, I'd be fuming!

I second all that Chatte!

[RedFaction]

The ending to the manga was inexcusable, but the Last was just on a whole nother level. I still haven't watched that movie, the cliff notes were enough for me.

It was just a cash in on Hinata getting with Naruto. Zero respect or care for any of the characters or story.

There was just no way for Boruto to have any chances of succeeding in my book as a follow up to that travesty of a movie.

[Phantom_999]

And succeed it did not

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

The ending to the manga was inexcusable, but the Last was just on a whole nother level. I still haven't watched that movie, the cliff notes were enough for me.
It was just a cash in on Hinata getting with Naruto. Zero respect or care for any of the characters or story.
There was just no way for Boruto to have any chances of succeeding in my book as a follow up to that travesty of a movie.

And to make matters worse and show that, Studio Pierrot keeps trying their damnedest to make retcons galore for the series, like that time travel BS for one, as well as how inconsistent things storywise and world building have been since The Last.

[LuckyChi7]

The Last is a disservice to all Naruto characters tho. Hell, if they wanted to go with NH they should've shown more respect to the pairing. Instead,t hey made them both look like terrible people.

Had NaruSaku become canon like that, I'd be fuming!

 

 

I would definitely agree with you on that Chatte. 

 

 

 

it makes me laugh when I hear people say well if NaruSaku became canon... and like yeah I want NaruSaku to become canon as much as the next guy, but if it became canon just like how The Last portrayed NaruHina I would've been like ugh hell no!

Edited by LuckyChi7, 13 December 2021 - 07:55 PM.

[VanitasDS76491]

 

 

I would definitely agree with you on that Chatte. 

 

 

 

it makes me laugh when I hear people say well if NaruSaku became canon... and like yeah I want NaruSaku to become canon as much as the next guy, but if it became canon just like how The Last portrayed NaruHina I would've been like ugh hell no!

agreed if ns was canon and had this current writing we'd wish it wasn't canon

[Derock]

If NaruSaku had a similar situation with The Last and Boruto, we will ALL be pissed. I don't want Naruto acting lazy, abandoning the kids and grow out of love with Sakura with unnecessary drama in their relationship and Sakura, herself, somehow becoming a doormat (which was supposed to be against her characterization) ala Hinata. 

 

Guys, that will send me to the roof. I don't want NaruSaku ACTING similar to the nonsensical canon NaruHina/SasuSaku. 

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

If NaruSaku had a similar situation with The Last and Boruto, we will ALL be pissed. I don't want Naruto acting lazy, abandoning the kids and grow out of love with Sakura with unnecessary drama in their relationship and Sakura, herself, somehow becoming a doormat (which was supposed to be against her characterization) ala Hinata. 

 

Guys, that will send me to the roof. I don't want NaruSaku ACTING similar to the nonsensical canon NaruHina/SasuSaku. 

 

I know, right!? I'm the same way! I want the way Naruto and Sakura's relationship had grown into, one where they believe in each other 1,000% all the way, and how they got each other's backs so effortlessly too. If they would EVER act like how the nonsensical NaruHina and SasuSaku are, I'd wanna commit ritual seppuku! Since it also would just ruin why NaruSaku works so well. Hell, even SasuKarin works better than what we got, since in spite of the terrible things Sasuke did to Karin when he was working up and down both sides of Psycho Street to get "revenge" for Itachi (when I still see it as his trying to destroy what Itachi loved because Sasuke was bitter he never really could surpass Itachi, since one of his goals in killing him was about his jealousy of his older brother's successes and how he never got the recognition from their dad like he wanted, given Fugaku only did it just to help aid in his stupid coup attempt), he believed in her and that's why he chose her to be in Hebi/Taka. He also seemed more sincere about his apology to Karin, given she'd know if he was lying, since she is a sensor type ninja and could feel Sasuke's chakra fluctuate if he lied to her.

 

Plus the fact is, Sasuke learned something crazy that'd never been thought possible when he learned to put out the flames of Amaterasu in Taka's attempt to capture Killer Bee as part of Obito using Sasuke for his own goals, but he did it when he saw Karin was going to be consumed by the flames he had created. He never did anything like that with Sakura involved. Closest is the Curse Mark, but that more was driven by his anger, hatred, and jealousy, as well as his lust for power because of his own inferiority-superiority complex, plus even when he learned what the Sound Three did, he only wanted to test the floodgates of what he could do, just like when he didn't want to step out of the Chunin Exams because of his damn ego.

[Phantom_999]

Ultimately, I’m not for the message of The Last because it promotes rewarding a girl’s simping which is not what love is about. And let’s be honest, Sakura and Hinata were simping hard over Sasuke and Naruto respectively, let’s not lie to ourselves. Although I’m also against spitting on NaruSaku’s bond to make them canon just as much than having whatever little development NaruHina had desecrated just so Hinata did not look like a silver medal, and more so in fact. But as stated The movie did not do right by NaruHina and this is coming from someone that saw a completely potential relationship between Naruto and Sakura since day one of diving into the series.

Edited by Phantom_999, 14 December 2021 - 01:20 PM.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

Ultimately, I’m not for the message of The Last because it promotes rewarding a girl’s simping which is not what love is about. And let’s be honest, Sakura and Hinata were simping hard over Sasuke and Naruto respectively, let’s not lie to ourselves. Although I’m also against spitting on NaruSaku’s bond to make them canon just as much than having whatever little development NaruHina had desecrated just so Hinata did not look like a silver medal, and more so in fact. But as stated The movie did not do right by NaruHina and this is coming from someone that saw a completely potential relationship between Naruto and Sakura since day one of diving into the series.

Yeah, once more, you nailed it, Phantom! It's one reason why I am SO pissed about how everything is done now.

[Namaenash]

So the market isn't democratic, and that's fine, they try to hold on a really minority, data say so. Why is happening in every platform. Netflix's Cowboy Bebop got axed, Boruto is making really bad, at least the Manga. Why companies just don't realize how much they are losing.

I would argue that Boruto as anime product isn't doing that great either.

If you read the latest earnings report from TV Tokyo, Boruto is ranked under Naruto. It's a red flag when an active/on-going anime generate less money than an anime that ended more than 5 years ago.

Furthermore, I can't stop giggling whenever Naruto apologists mentioned "It's number 1 or 2, it must be very popular in Japan".

We'll, no. Not necessarily. First off, TV Tokyo is not the only broadcasters in Japan. They're big, but not the biggest in Japan (to be precise, they're at 4th rank most of the time according to many public reports).

Secondly, TV Tokyo net income has been declining since 2016 by ~45%. In absolute figure, it's a decline from 4.7 billion yen in 2016 to 2.6 billion yen in 2021. Many believe that the decline is across the conventional broadcasting industry due to the rise of streaming services. Also, I believe TV Tokyo has never shared the absolute figures of how much each franchise in their report is making. They just shared the ranks in their annual report. Given that all of the segments shrunk in TV Tokyo net income, we can only assume that Naruto franchise absolute figure was also declining. How much exactly is not known to public. Now, to put it into perspective: What Boruto earned this year is potentially lower than what it earned last year and the year before. Compound that to the fact that it ranked below Naruto, then you will immediately see that it's not doing that great.

If people are comparing it with other franchise like Pokémon, they really have no idea how all these things work. Pokémon is THE highest grossing media franchise of all time, and majority of its income generated from merchandise. To put it into perspective, Pokémon grosses roughly about 3.2x all Marvel Cinematic Universe franchise products combined. Trying to compare Naruto franchise with Pokémon franchise would be a joke.

Another indicator is customers stickiness. Behaviorally, when broadcasted products are doing great, its customers will buy things related to the franchise outside of the broadcasting corridor. Not just manga but also merchandise, games and others. We've seen this happening at all times, whether it is Dragon Ball, One Piece, Attack on Titan, Kimetsu no Yaiba, etc. It's a network effects. When Japanese kids are talking about a character in anime series, their parents would find something related to that franchise as gift for family occasion, etc. Before long, everyone regardless of age would be familiar with the franchise in one way or another.

This is the stark customer behavioral differences between successful broadcast products and ordinary broadcast products. It distinguished which products customers are buying and which one that are "just there for the sake of it." Boruto anime falls into the second criteria. If you label your product as kids anime, shown during the time families are at home, it is almost guaranteed that your show would be "popular". It's that kind of kids show in which other options are either Chibi Maruko-chan or Sazae-san (both are great, btw). For Naruto franchise, its manga sales have always been the proxy indicator of the franchise's success. Naruto franchise doesn't rely on merchandise and their latest game (Shinobi Striker) was a flop.

[Bail o' Lies]

I would argue that Boruto as anime product isn't doing that great either.

If you read the latest earnings report from TV Tokyo, Boruto is ranked under Naruto. It's a red flag when an active/on-going anime generate less money than an anime that ended more than 5 years ago.

Furthermore, I can't stop giggling whenever Naruto apologists mentioned "It's number 1 or 2, it must be very popular in Japan".

We'll, no. Not necessarily. First off, TV Tokyo is not the only broadcasters in Japan. They're big, but not the biggest in Japan (to be precise, they're at 4th rank most of the time according to many public reports).

Secondly, TV Tokyo net income has been declining since 2016 by ~45%. In absolute figure, it's a decline from 4.7 billion yen in 2016 to 2.6 billion yen in 2021. Many believe that the decline is across the conventional broadcasting industry due to the rise of streaming services. Also, I believe TV Tokyo has never shared the absolute figures of how much each franchise in their report is making. They just shared the ranks in their annual report. Given that all of the segments shrunk in TV Tokyo net income, we can only assume that Naruto franchise absolute figure was also declining. How much exactly is not known to public. Now, to put it into perspective: What Boruto earned this year is potentially lower than what it earned last year and the year before. Compound that to the fact that it ranked below Naruto, then you will immediately see that it's not doing that great.

If people are comparing it with other franchise like Pokémon, they really have no idea how all these things work. Pokémon is THE highest grossing media franchise of all time, and majority of its income generated from merchandise. To put it into perspective, Pokémon grosses roughly about 3.2x all Marvel Cinematic Universe franchise products combined. Trying to compare Naruto franchise with Pokémon franchise would be a joke.

Another indicator is customers stickiness. Behaviorally, when broadcasted products are doing great, its customers will buy things related to the franchise outside of the broadcasting corridor. Not just manga but also merchandise, games and others. We've seen this happening at all times, whether it is Dragon Ball, One Piece, Attack on Titan, Kimetsu no Yaiba, etc. It's a network effects. When Japanese kids are talking about a character in anime series, their parents would find something related to that franchise as gift for family occasion, etc. Before long, everyone regardless of age would be familiar with the franchise in one way or another.

This is the stark customer behavioral differences between successful broadcast products and ordinary broadcast products. It distinguished which products customers are buying and which one that are "just there for the sake of it." Boruto anime falls into the second criteria. If you label your product as kids anime, shown during the time families are at home, it is almost guaranteed that your show would be "popular". It's that kind of kids show in which other options are either Chibi Maruko-chan or Sazae-san (both are great, btw). For Naruto franchise, its manga sales have always been the proxy indicator of the franchise's success. Naruto franchise doesn't rely on merchandise and their latest game (Shinobi Striker) was a flop.

That does explain why TvTokyo needed Naruto to continue, since there is a possibility that it made up around 50% of their annual earnings. They were also likely the company really pushing for it to continue and the ones that really wanted that sequel. Especially, since the other two seem to have dropped it to focus on other franchises.

 

Well, "its #1 or #2 on the fourth biggest station," doesn't seems as impressive. What are they three biggest stations?...I'll check if those have any anime if you don't want to. Also, wasn't the old adage for over a decade that Naruto was popular in the West and One Piece was popular in Japan? So, for their new claim to work. Making Hinata the love interest suddenly makes the sequel shoot pass One Piece and any other anime like Detective Conan, MHA, or Yokai Hunter in Japan. Despite the fact that even in the West, no one talks about Boruto unless Naruto is doing something cool.

 

Boruto is just some random Sunday cartoon. They watch it because is on at a convenient time and there nothing better to do, but it isn't interesting enough for them to care beyond that. Especially, if there are better anime its competing against.

[Namaenash]

That does explain why TvTokyo needed Naruto to continue, since there is a possibility that it made up around 50% of their annual earnings. They were also likely the company really pushing for it to continue and the ones that really wanted that sequel. Especially, since the other two seem to have dropped it to focus on other franchises.
 
Well, "its #1 or #2 on the fourth biggest station," doesn't seems as impressive. What are they three biggest stations?...I'll check if those have any anime if you don't want to. Also, wasn't the old adage for over a decade that Naruto was popular in the West and One Piece was popular in Japan? So, for their new claim to work. Making Hinata the love interest suddenly makes the sequel shoot pass One Piece and any other anime like Detective Conan, MHA, or Yokai Hunter in Japan. Despite the fact that even in the West, no one talks about Boruto unless Naruto is doing something cool.
 
Boruto is just some random Sunday cartoon. They watch it because is on at a convenient time and there nothing better to do, but it isn't interesting enough for them to care beyond that. Especially, if there are better anime its competing against.

For sure it's not 50% of their revenue :). The anime segment according to the report contribute ~8-10% overall TV Tokyo Earnings. So, most likely Naruto franchise contributes about 3-5%. It's a wild guess since there's no public number about Naruto earnings.

Hinata/NH popular outside of Japan is also a myth. We would have Boruto sales at the top of the chart, New movies every year will still be ongoing, New games every other year will be there, merchandise, DLC featuring Hinata/NH.

That's never happened. It's a baseless claim without actual weight.

Naruto manga sales in Japan account for more than 90% of the manga revenue. The remaining of 10% is all other countries in the world combined.

It's recognized in the West, sure. But it doesn't necessarily commercially significant.

Edited by Namaenash, 16 December 2021 - 10:11 AM.