31 replies to this topic

[tricksie]

So, I've been thinking lately cultural differences in reading the manga, and how that colors our interpretation. And there was some off-topic discussion about it in a few threads, so I thought I'd start a new home to share thoughts on cultural differences in reading the manga or viewing the anime, and in traditional storytelling in general.

 

I'll be the first to admit that Hinata becoming the love interest rubs me the wrong way. But I've been wondering lately if there wasn't more to it than just the dislike of secondary character paired with the main hero over the the main heroine.

 

Hinata is the long-suffering, passive and empathetic character who's love for Naruto just grows while her personal development remains small. Sakura however has tremendous character growth and comes to see the relationships around her in a different way.

 

The world changes around Hinata, but she doesn't, and keeps her goal fixed on a single point. Sakura changes her world, which then changes her goals and her relationships.

 

Hinata's a passive character, while Sakura's an active one.

 

(And unfortunately, Hinata is such a minor character she's not even a proper foil for Sakura. Her comparison has only been brought about in the end by making her a more important character than she's been shown to be throughout the whole story. So it's not like Naruto/Sasuke, hero/anti-hero or love interest vs. love interest. Hinata has only become some sort of foil to Sakura in the end, when they've diminished Sakura's role in favor of more time spent on Hinata. But even then, Hinata is still passively supporting only Naruto while Sakura is actively fighting to save Naruto and everyone else.)

 

So I've been wondering, is my discomfort with this turn of events simply because of the way the story is written...or are there deeper cultural differences at work here that allow Japanese readers to accept an NH and SS relationship, even appreciate it, where I want to rail against it? 

 

My theory is that Sakura, and NS, represents a modern-day girl and a modern-day romance. And Hinata, NH and consequently SS, represent a more traditional Japanese romance, with a passive, empathetic, long-loving, always forgiving female, and an active, dark and brooding (Sasuke) or even neglectful (Naruto) male counterpart.

 

This may explain why Japanese readers primarily thanked Kishimoto instead of wanting to burn books and feeling cheated. Because maybe this pairing happens much more often than I, a non-japanese reader, realize.

 

A few other things that factor into my thoughts:

 

- The recent yelling-down of a female politician in Japan, in public office and on camera, telling her to go home and raise her children. This wasn't by one other politician, but by many.

 

- The very prominent images of passive, empathetic, kind and gentle (or sweet and child-like) girls and women in current Japanese marketing, bands, talk shows, etc.

 

So it's a culture that's got a lot of modern women being active and breaking rules and roles and barriers, but it's also glorifies passive girls/women.

 

Anyway, I think since we are a wonderfully multicultural site, all reading a manga that is thoroughly Japanese and written by an author who has more than a few times said he's surprised how popular Naruto is internationally, I thought it would be interesting to get other opinions on this.

 

How much does Japanese culture, both modern and traditional, play a part in the manga?

[Hanabi]

 

This may explain why Japanese readers primarily thanked Kishimoto instead of wanting to burn books and feeling cheated. Because maybe this pairing happens much more often than I, a non-japanese reader, realize.

the japanese are just well-mannered imo.. though i did see some disgruntled ns jap fans on twitter.. one was saying studio pierot should change the movie to 'the last- hinata the movie'

 

How much does Japanese culture, both modern and traditional, play a part in the manga?

i think it's more of kishimoto's problem than cultural problem.. girls are barely characters in his eyes

Edited by Hanabi, 17 November 2014 - 02:58 PM.

[Phantom_999]

Well again to bring this up, Japanese have a very different standard of romance and what is considered a romantic gesture than we do. Like some stuff that we take for granted and consider ordinary say for instance, handholding  in public is a pretty bold move to be displaying in a japanese public. But here's the thing, I doubt that the NS teases Kishi threw out in the story did not lead on a lot of Japanese fans, what with Sakura's offer to feed Naruto, hugging him if front of the entire village, etc etc. That wasn't implying that she was just kind cause she worries about a lot of people and cares for their safety but you don't see her get anywhere near as emotional than when Naruto is concerned. I'm guessing he just Sold out to  the masses of SS fans in Japan I guess. NH had no where near the level of popularity in Japan as NS or SS, btw.

 

Anyway, What I'm most bitter about is not NH for the millionth time (although again the couple was not given much focus or prominence when compared to NS) but that SS HAPPENED, after all that s**t Sasuke did to Sakura. All the drama, all the heart break and all death threats thrown at her, they B****y became a couple. Now while it's true that the same could be said that Naruto never let him go as a friend, the problem is that like NH it WAS NOT DEVELOPED, on top of all that negativity. The only thing that kept SS on any level of plausibility is that time and time again Kishi MUST INSIST that she keep her love for Sasuke Like Hinata and Naruto, no matter how shallow and poorly thought out it was. Really his idea on love is messed up and distorted with the way he portrayed it. So ALWAYS Naruto and and every person parallel to him is supposed to have an unrequited love and never once will they win. the circumstance surrounding Minato and Kushina falling in love in which no way he made it just coincidence, meant nothing. That is what  I am most pissed off by.

 

I can only imagine he had a freak out/break down on whatever unholy thought that penetrated his head and made him think "Oh I should do the couples EXACTLY like Toriyama-sensei!!!!" Or "Wait Sasuke needs a baby maker and It's too last minute to make one up so I'll just settle for Sakura!!!!!!!"

 

Seriously If he intended for SS to happen from the beginning, after everything he put Sasuke and Sakura through, and all the while developing Naruto and Sakura's relationship the way he did, then think that that is brother and sister behaviour then he is INFINITELY WORSE at writing romance than Toriyama ever was. Toriyama may not have done romance at all, and he may have done the couples on a whim but at least he made them distinct and clear. He did not make Bulma and Goku seem like they're on the verge of falling in love AND THEN have them get together with their designated love interest at the last second.

 

And on a minor note, while this has little to do with anything the least Kishi could have done was make the couples look a bit compatible in appearance at least. I mean Naruto and Sakura, in terms of appearance seem like they belong together. Not a big deal yes, but you can't say that most if not all comics you've read that the love interest doesn't have some compatibility to their special one in terms of looks right? Sure there is the odd looking couple every now and then but for the most part they at least look plausible if you see them together.

Edited by Phantom_999, 18 November 2014 - 06:33 PM.

[rikakim94]

So, I've been thinking lately cultural differences in reading the manga, and how that colors our interpretation. And there was some off-topic discussion about it in a few threads, so I thought I'd start a new home to share thoughts on cultural differences in reading the manga or viewing the anime, and in traditional storytelling in general.

 

I'll be the first to admit that Hinata becoming the love interest rubs me the wrong way. But I've been wondering lately if there wasn't more to it than just the dislike of secondary character paired with the main hero over the the main heroine.

 

Hinata is the long-suffering, passive and empathetic character who's love for Naruto just grows while her personal development remains small. Sakura however has tremendous character growth and comes to see the relationships around her in a different way.

 

The world changes around Hinata, but she doesn't, and keeps her goal fixed on a single point. Sakura changes her world, which then changes her goals and her relationships.

 

Hinata's a passive character, while Sakura's an active one.

 

(And unfortunately, Hinata is such a minor character she's not even a proper foil for Sakura. Her comparison has only been brought about in the end by making her a more important character than she's been shown to be throughout the whole story. So it's not like Naruto/Sasuke, hero/anti-hero or love interest vs. love interest. Hinata has only become some sort of foil to Sakura in the end, when they've diminished Sakura's role in favor of more time spent on Hinata. But even then, Hinata is still passively supporting only Naruto while Sakura is actively fighting to save Naruto and everyone else.)

 

So I've been wondering, is my discomfort with this turn of events simply because of the way the story is written...or are there deeper cultural differences at work here that allow Japanese readers to accept an NH and SS relationship, even appreciate it, where I want to rail against it? 

 

My theory is that Sakura, and NS, represents a modern-day girl and a modern-day romance. And Hinata, NH and consequently SS, represent a more traditional Japanese romance, with a passive, empathetic, long-loving, always forgiving female, and an active, dark and brooding (Sasuke) or even neglectful (Naruto) male counterpart.

 

This may explain why Japanese readers primarily thanked Kishimoto instead of wanting to burn books and feeling cheated. Because maybe this pairing happens much more often than I, a non-japanese reader, realize.

 

A few other things that factor into my thoughts:

 

- The recent yelling-down of a female politician in Japan, in public office and on camera, telling her to go home and raise her children. This wasn't by one other politician, but by many.

 

- The very prominent images of passive, empathetic, kind and gentle (or sweet and child-like) girls and women in current Japanese marketing, bands, talk shows, etc.

 

So it's a culture that's got a lot of modern women being active and breaking rules and roles and barriers, but it's also glorifies passive girls/women.

 

Anyway, I think since we are a wonderfully multicultural site, all reading a manga that is thoroughly Japanese and written by an author who has more than a few times said he's surprised how popular Naruto is internationally, I thought it would be interesting to get other opinions on this.

 

How much does Japanese culture, both modern and traditional, play a part in the manga?

 

Im gonna post what i posted in the chapter tread.

 

I noticed that you and tricksie are discussing about culture difference and that might relate to why sakura was handled as a housewife and loyal lover to the abuser.

 

I found an interesting topic about that on tv tropes. Not to long ago i saw a movie called the wolf children and it had a female lead that went from a strong energetic girl to a weak submissive girl. I even saw a video were the director claimed that the girl turning more submissive is a sign of maturing which is something i found shocking. That was until i did a research of that movie myself on tv tropes. While researching i ran into the ymmv section theres a trope called "vaules dissounce".  In that section i found interesting examples of how female characters are handle due to cultural reasons. 

 

http://tvtropes.org/...aluesDissonance

 

Whats your opinions on this?  

Edited by rikakim94, 17 November 2014 - 10:26 PM.

[Phantom_999]

Yeah I read that that And while it may make things seem less hurtful and out of character, It still does not account for Why NS couldn't happen.  The question I pose is not why is Sakura a submissive house Wife? It's Why isn't she with Naruto? She could be Submissive and homely and I wouldn't dislike her at all. I just wonder why she had to marry an abusive pretty boy that couldn't give two flipping s**ts about her feelings until last minute.

Edited by Phantom_999, 17 November 2014 - 10:47 PM.

[Miss Soupy]

Is it a cultural thing? NH has been the preferred pairing for Western readers for quite awhile, while NH for Japanese readers never was very high on the pairing searches/polls (at least the last ones I've seen). SS and NS were always the favored het pairings, from what I recall. It wasn't until Kishi really started dumping on Sakura's character that Hinata got more popular with Japanese fans. I think that Fake Confession hurt her a lot, especially when that came right after Hinata's real confession. I still can't understand the point of him writing that scene...

 

Anyways, it might just be that Japanese fans are more polite about how they handle disappointments. Plus, the most popular pairings were yaoi pairings that they probably knew would never be canon. They could ship in a more detached way, maybe? XD

[rikakim94]

Yeah I read that that And while it may make things seem less hurtful and out of character, It still does not account for Why NS couldn't happen.  The question I pose is not why is Sakura a submissive house Wife? It's Why isn't she with Naruto? She could be Submissive and homely and I wouldn't dislike her at all. I just wonder why she had to marry an abusive pretty boy that couldn't give two flipping s**ts about her feelings until last minute.

 

I really have no idea but this assistant of kishi defended why ss came to be. Someone who knows japanese in forum translated what that said assistant said.

 

Here The first tweet: 
 
The series that lasted 15 years is over... We joined our efforts in the publication of that series for 12 years and it still feels like it was yesterdays. 8 years ago, I was told about the ending... Some little modifications/adjustments were made, but what was shown was the same beautiful plot/ending I was told back at that time..... Really good work Kishimoto-sensei for those 15 years!
 
And the tweet in which Kishimoto's assistant criticize NS fans: 
 
Again, NaruSaku fans/believers didn't understand.
Were they completely ignoring Sakura's feelings?
The one who still love/has feelings the most with all her heart despite having been betrayed is Sakura, I'm sure she'll be happy. Are those feelings so hard to understand? 

 

 

I absolutely do not agree of what he is saying because it is really hard to respect sakura's feelings for sasuke especially when he physically mentally abused thoughout the whole series until the last minute. Whats worse is that sakura herself can't even respect herself in front of him. THAT is something i can not respect.  i mean i will accept it as its what it is but i will never respect it. 

[archangel]

So, I've been thinking lately cultural differences in reading the manga, and how that colors our interpretation. And there was some off-topic discussion about it in a few threads, so I thought I'd start a new home to share thoughts on cultural differences in reading the manga or viewing the anime, and in traditional storytelling in general.

 

I'll be the first to admit that Hinata becoming the love interest rubs me the wrong way. But I've been wondering lately if there wasn't more to it than just the dislike of secondary character paired with the main hero over the the main heroine.

 

Hinata is the long-suffering, passive and empathetic character who's love for Naruto just grows while her personal development remains small. Sakura however has tremendous character growth and comes to see the relationships around her in a different way.

 

The world changes around Hinata, but she doesn't, and keeps her goal fixed on a single point. Sakura changes her world, which then changes her goals and her relationships.

 

Hinata's a passive character, while Sakura's an active one.

 

(And unfortunately, Hinata is such a minor character she's not even a proper foil for Sakura. Her comparison has only been brought about in the end by making her a more important character than she's been shown to be throughout the whole story. So it's not like Naruto/Sasuke, hero/anti-hero or love interest vs. love interest. Hinata has only become some sort of foil to Sakura in the end, when they've diminished Sakura's role in favor of more time spent on Hinata. But even then, Hinata is still passively supporting only Naruto while Sakura is actively fighting to save Naruto and everyone else.)

 

So I've been wondering, is my discomfort with this turn of events simply because of the way the story is written...or are there deeper cultural differences at work here that allow Japanese readers to accept an NH and SS relationship, even appreciate it, where I want to rail against it? 

 

My theory is that Sakura, and NS, represents a modern-day girl and a modern-day romance. And Hinata, NH and consequently SS, represent a more traditional Japanese romance, with a passive, empathetic, long-loving, always forgiving female, and an active, dark and brooding (Sasuke) or even neglectful (Naruto) male counterpart.

 

This may explain why Japanese readers primarily thanked Kishimoto instead of wanting to burn books and feeling cheated. Because maybe this pairing happens much more often than I, a non-japanese reader, realize.

 

A few other things that factor into my thoughts:

 

- The recent yelling-down of a female politician in Japan, in public office and on camera, telling her to go home and raise her children. This wasn't by one other politician, but by many.

 

- The very prominent images of passive, empathetic, kind and gentle (or sweet and child-like) girls and women in current Japanese marketing, bands, talk shows, etc.

 

So it's a culture that's got a lot of modern women being active and breaking rules and roles and barriers, but it's also glorifies passive girls/women.

 

Anyway, I think since we are a wonderfully multicultural site, all reading a manga that is thoroughly Japanese and written by an author who has more than a few times said he's surprised how popular Naruto is internationally, I thought it would be interesting to get other opinions on this.

 

How much does Japanese culture, both modern and traditional, play a part in the manga?

The thing is just that I don't see the cultural difference being the point. Sometime in those abusive relationship, the "dominant male" shows at least that he care I mean he tried 1 too many time to kill her, which in my opinion you're have to be derange or voluntary blind to agree with this kind of behaviour.

 

Plus for me, it just about story 101, main character, love interest and rival dynamic. He created Sakura and Sasuke because once he draw Naruto, he didn't know how to start his story.  I don't think japan was the issue. Naruto become is the number 1 manga worldwide, but not in japan. I think it's one piece there. I think the editor therefore made Kishi sold out to NH and SS (making 2 of the most wanted pairing canon in 1 move.). In my opinion, culture has nothing to do with it. You can have cultural reference in a story, but t the way a story is written is universal. Coherency in a story must be universal.

 

When you have a bad guy character like Sasuke, you have to make him show some interest for the girl. Check Dragonball Vegeta. He never said it but his action shows that he cares for Bulma. Even in the last dragon ball movie, he shows it.

Sasuke on the other end is plain abuse and murder. Where I see Japanese culture is on the reaction of the fan. Japanese aren't like us in the west. They won't see the ending with it's flaw but the long 15 years Kishi put on the story, thus thanking him for that. Even some of us in the west thank him for that.I mean the story and the manga become part of our life and that is a part that just end. It's a good-bye. But it leave us with a bitter taste.  

 

You have to decern the character dream, ambition and goal right from the start. If they changes, it must be toward story progression, no matter where you from. That's why a book can sell and translate in different language, the story is good enough to pass cultural distinction.

 

Sasuke never show in shippuden that he cared one bit for Sakura. and the story shows Sakura develop somewhat of a feeling for Naruto, plus questioning her feeling for Sasuke. (Again in storytelling 101, Sasuke is the rival who got the love interest attention at the start and it shows that the main character has to win her over. Story progress like that little by little until 699, where it go completely backward).  If they show us at least Sasuke saves Sakura once during the war, Naruto always told Sasuke to save her on multiple occasion and he never move, seem to care or anything.

 

That why I don't believe that cultural reference has anything to do with it. Sold out to money or give in to pressure seems more like it. I know we wanted a better and more moral motivation from him, but I sadly believe that he just sold out or give in. 

Edited by archangel, 18 November 2014 - 12:16 AM.

[archangel]

 

I really have no idea but this assistant of kishi defended why ss came to be. Someone who knows japanese in forum translated what that said assistant said.

 

Here The first tweet: 
 
The series that lasted 15 years is over... We joined our efforts in the publication of that series for 12 years and it still feels like it was yesterdays. 8 years ago, I was told about the ending... Some little modifications/adjustments were made, but what was shown was the same beautiful plot/ending I was told back at that time..... Really good work Kishimoto-sensei for those 15 years!
 
And the tweet in which Kishimoto's assistant criticize NS fans: 
 
Again, NaruSaku fans/believers didn't understand.
Were they completely ignoring Sakura's feelings?
The one who still love/has feelings the most with all her heart despite having been betrayed is Sakura, I'm sure she'll be happy. Are those feelings so hard to understand? 

 

 

I absolutely do not agree of what he is saying because it is really hard to respect sakura's feelings for sasuke especially when he physically mentally abused thoughout the whole series until the last minute. Whats worse is that sakura herself can't even respect herself in front of him. THAT is something i can not respect.  i mean i will accept it as its what it is but i will never respect it. 

That assistant should shut his face. Seriously, don't tried to defend this asspull. We care about Sakura feeling. He don't. I mean I rather see Naruto with Hinata and Sakura with the guy who send her that love letter or Rock lee than Sasuke. Hell, even alone seems better.

[harry4e]

 

Again, NaruSaku fans/believers didn't understand.
Were they completely ignoring Sakura's feelings?
The one who still love/has feelings the most with all her heart despite having been betrayed is Sakura, I'm sure she'll be happy. Are those feelings so hard to understand? 

 

 

I absolutely do not agree of what he is saying because it is really hard to respect sakura's feelings for sasuke especially when he physically mentally abused thoughout the whole series until the last minute. Whats worse is that sakura herself can't even respect herself in front of him. THAT is something i can not respect.  i mean i will accept it as its what it is but i will never respect it. 

 

I started reading a Naruto fic today (It's likely not a NaruSaku) anyway at one point Sakura was having a conversation with her inner self and the inner self said one line that stuck with me.

 

"Girl, You are only 12 years old, what do you know about love"

 

That is why we don't accept NaruHina and especially not SasuSaku, they were both crushes on boys when they were still too young to understand love. And there is no way we can call it love bult up after that because they never got to know the actual person they supposed to love.

 

Kishi is a father himself, in a few year that child will get his or her first crush, and according to Kishi that child should have an unhealthy obsession with that crush, never even look at anyone else, just stay true to their first crush.

 

As for that Assistant, someone should ask him what about Naruto's feelings? The one who almost died for a promise multiple times, someone who loved so deeply yet got nothing in return except false confessions and ignored? Where in the Manga were we even shown that Sakura loved Sasuke? We saw her crush on him, and wanting to understand his pain, but nowhere in the manga was it shown what part of Sasuke she loved. She never knew Sasuke, she knew his situation, and that's not love, that's compassion for his past. Just because a Mangaka says it's love doesn't mean we have to accept it they have to actually show it.

 

Allot of made about how Sasuke treated Sakura, but for me it goes beyond that, Sakura never loved Sasuke, Kishi for me has not shown me a single piece of evidence that shows us that Sakura's feelings were nothing more than a childhood crush that morphed into something unhealthy she believed to be love. 3-4 years of no communcation does not make you fall in love with someone.

[ciardha]

No, this isn't natural in Japanese manga at all. I've been reading manga for over 30 years and sorry, I don't recall even one manga that had an ending that made a complete travesty of the whole story- I'm not just talking about the nonsensical pairings, but look at Naruto- he's stern and clearly unhappy (no smile like he always had for everyone), an alcoholic (whiskey bottle right out in the open at his desk,along with stacks of instant ramen cups- another point he's ignoring his mother's advice on) who avoids his so called family as much as possible, physically and verbally puts his son for wanting him to be a father. This  is a Naruto who acts like Sasuke... Note as well Kishimoto did not write this epilogue nor will he be writing the part 3 limited series- one of his assistants is doing both. Kishimoto talked about how his assistants hated Sakura even back in part 1, remember as well. Plus there's been quite a bit of noise in the Japanese Naruto fandom about how wrong this ending is and how it was forced by the huge number of fans that Nana Mizuki has- voice actor for Hinata and also a very popular idol singer. (Far more popular than any of the other Naruto voice actors, including Junko.) Only the voice actor for Shikamaru comes anywhere near Nana Mizuki's fanbase. But her fans have no real ties to Naruto fandom, it's just about Mizuki's idol singer popularity- they'll buy or see anything she does, as long as she's the star of it. Japanese fans are thanking Kishimoto for what he wrote, but are making the same critical reactions about the complete nonsensical chapter 700.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

No, this isn't natural in Japanese manga at all. I've been reading manga for over 30 years and sorry, I don't recall even one manga that had an ending that made a complete travesty of the whole story- I'm not just talking about the nonsensical pairings, but look at Naruto- he's stern and clearly unhappy (no smile like he always had for everyone), an alcoholic (whiskey bottle right out in the open at his desk,along with stacks of instant ramen cups- another point he's ignoring his mother's advice on) who avoids his so called family as much as possible, physically and verbally puts his son for wanting him to be a father. This  is a Naruto who acts like Sasuke... Note as well Kishimoto did not write this epilogue nor will he be writing the part 3 limited series- one of his assistants is doing both. Kishimoto talked about how his assistants hated Sakura even back in part 1, remember as well. Plus there's been quite a bit of noise in the Japanese Naruto fandom about how wrong this ending is and how it was forced by the huge number of fans that Nana Mizuki has- voice actor for Hinata and also a very popular idol singer. (Far more popular than any of the other Naruto voice actors, including Junko.) Only the voice actor for Shikamaru comes anywhere near Nana Mizuki's fanbase. But her fans have no real ties to Naruto fandom, it's just about Mizuki's idol singer popularity- they'll buy or see anything she does, as long as she's the star of it. Japanese fans are thanking Kishimoto for what he wrote, but are making the same critical reactions about the complete nonsensical chapter 700.

 

I know whatcha mean about the ending. I've read a lot of manga too, though not 30 years. I've seen plenty that people question about the endings and all, and I gotta admit, a lot of your thoughts are accurate to what a lot of us are saying for sure. Things feel off, and it's so damn confusing!

[Hanabi]

No, this isn't natural in Japanese manga at all. I've been reading manga for over 30 years and sorry, I don't recall even one manga that had an ending that made a complete travesty of the whole story- I'm not just talking about the nonsensical pairings, but look at Naruto- he's stern and clearly unhappy (no smile like he always had for everyone), an alcoholic (whiskey bottle right out in the open at his desk,along with stacks of instant ramen cups- another point he's ignoring his mother's advice on) who avoids his so called family as much as possible, physically and verbally puts his son for wanting him to be a father. This  is a Naruto who acts like Sasuke... Note as well Kishimoto did not write this epilogue nor will he be writing the part 3 limited series- one of his assistants is doing both. Kishimoto talked about how his assistants hated Sakura even back in part 1, remember as well. Plus there's been quite a bit of noise in the Japanese Naruto fandom about how wrong this ending is and how it was forced by the huge number of fans that Nana Mizuki has- voice actor for Hinata and also a very popular idol singer. (Far more popular than any of the other Naruto voice actors, including Junko.) Only the voice actor for Shikamaru comes anywhere near Nana Mizuki's fanbase. But her fans have no real ties to Naruto fandom, it's just about Mizuki's idol singer popularity- they'll buy or see anything she does, as long as she's the star of it. Japanese fans are thanking Kishimoto for what he wrote, but are making the same critical reactions about the complete nonsensical chapter 700.

Konohamaru va is pikachu va too

[rikakim94]

Konohamaru va is pikachu va too

 

Also she voiced sailor moon!

[Hanabi]

 
Also she voiced sailor moon!

huh really? usagi?

[Dario]

l've read quite a lot of manga, shonen, seinen and even shojo and quite honestly l've never seen such poorly portrayed relationships, not just romances but friendships and family bonds too. l don't see how cultural differences would justify the problems l have with things like the complete reversal of original themes, neglect of side characters, poor power progression and terrible antagonists. l think this is just a badly written story.

[rikakim94]

huh really? usagi?

yeah go check her wiki.

[MangaReader]

Again, NaruSaku fans/believers didn't understand.

Were they completely ignoring Sakura's feelings?
The one who still love/has feelings the most with all her heart despite having been betrayed is Sakura, I'm sure she'll be happy. Are those feelings so hard to understand? 

I don't like this statement because it's basically saying we should ignore Naruto's feelings because apparently this is all women have going for them in a manga. Because only men's feelings change overtime apparently... I'm sorry, but this is poor argument to try and make a supportive claim of why SasuSaku makes sense, especially since you have to ignore Sasuke's feelings (or lack there of) in this matter as well

[Jenskott]

 

 

No, this isn't natural in Japanese manga at all. I've been reading manga for over 30 years and sorry, I don't recall even one manga that had an ending that made a complete travesty of the whole story- I'm not just talking about the nonsensical pairings, but look at Naruto- he's stern and clearly unhappy (no smile like he always had for everyone), an alcoholic (whiskey bottle right out in the open at his desk,along with stacks of instant ramen cups- another point he's ignoring his mother's advice on) who avoids his so called family as much as possible, physically and verbally puts his son for wanting him to be a father. This  is a Naruto who acts like Sasuke... Note as well Kishimoto did not write this epilogue nor will he be writing the part 3 limited series- one of his assistants is doing both. Kishimoto talked about how his assistants hated Sakura even back in part 1, remember as well. Plus there's been quite a bit of noise in the Japanese Naruto fandom about how wrong this ending is and how it was forced by the huge number of fans that Nana Mizuki has- voice actor for Hinata and also a very popular idol singer. (Far more popular than any of the other Naruto voice actors, including Junko.) Only the voice actor for Shikamaru comes anywhere near Nana Mizuki's fanbase. But her fans have no real ties to Naruto fandom, it's just about Mizuki's idol singer popularity- they'll buy or see anything she does, as long as she's the star of it. Japanese fans are thanking Kishimoto for what he wrote, but are making the same critical reactions about the complete nonsensical chapter 700.

 

I agree wholeheartedly.

 

No, it is not an issue of cultural differences at all. I have been reading manga and watching anime for longer than some members of this board have been alive (I am not gloating or something ridiculous like that. It is only a fact). I grew up watching anime in the eighties. And I have never seen something like this.

 

And I had never watched an anime show where a girl following a guy like a deranged stalker or hooking up with a deranged stalker was treated like something positive.

 

...

 

In fact I do not remember any anime where a girl followed a guy like a deranged stalker or hooked up with a guy that was a deranged stalker.

 

It is an issue of bad writing -and perhaps editorial interference-, that is all.

 

Maybe it is an issue of anime shows pandering to otaku during the last decade, though. For a long while they have been catering to people who is not interested in real relationships with real people but in living vicariously through characters that hook up with quiet, submissive women that are always supportive, soft-spoken and kind and never get angry, upset or talk against you (ironically the characters that they usually treat like epitomes of womanly perfection -Rei Ayanami and the like- are NOT supportive, sweet and kind AT ALL).

[AzureKnight]

So, I've been thinking lately cultural differences in reading the manga, and how that colors our interpretation. And there was some off-topic discussion about it in a few threads, so I thought I'd start a new home to share thoughts on cultural differences in reading the manga or viewing the anime, and in traditional storytelling in general.

 

I'll be the first to admit that Hinata becoming the love interest rubs me the wrong way. But I've been wondering lately if there wasn't more to it than just the dislike of secondary character paired with the main hero over the the main heroine.

 

Hinata is the long-suffering, passive and empathetic character who's love for Naruto just grows while her personal development remains small. Sakura however has tremendous character growth and comes to see the relationships around her in a different way.

 

The world changes around Hinata, but she doesn't, and keeps her goal fixed on a single point. Sakura changes her world, which then changes her goals and her relationships.

 

Hinata's a passive character, while Sakura's an active one.

 

(And unfortunately, Hinata is such a minor character she's not even a proper foil for Sakura. Her comparison has only been brought about in the end by making her a more important character than she's been shown to be throughout the whole story. So it's not like Naruto/Sasuke, hero/anti-hero or love interest vs. love interest. Hinata has only become some sort of foil to Sakura in the end, when they've diminished Sakura's role in favor of more time spent on Hinata. But even then, Hinata is still passively supporting only Naruto while Sakura is actively fighting to save Naruto and everyone else.)

 

So I've been wondering, is my discomfort with this turn of events simply because of the way the story is written...or are there deeper cultural differences at work here that allow Japanese readers to accept an NH and SS relationship, even appreciate it, where I want to rail against it? 

 

My theory is that Sakura, and NS, represents a modern-day girl and a modern-day romance. And Hinata, NH and consequently SS, represent a more traditional Japanese romance, with a passive, empathetic, long-loving, always forgiving female, and an active, dark and brooding (Sasuke) or even neglectful (Naruto) male counterpart.

 

This may explain why Japanese readers primarily thanked Kishimoto instead of wanting to burn books and feeling cheated. Because maybe this pairing happens much more often than I, a non-japanese reader, realize.

 

A few other things that factor into my thoughts:

 

- The recent yelling-down of a female politician in Japan, in public office and on camera, telling her to go home and raise her children. This wasn't by one other politician, but by many.

 

- The very prominent images of passive, empathetic, kind and gentle (or sweet and child-like) girls and women in current Japanese marketing, bands, talk shows, etc.

 

So it's a culture that's got a lot of modern women being active and breaking rules and roles and barriers, but it's also glorifies passive girls/women.

 

Anyway, I think since we are a wonderfully multicultural site, all reading a manga that is thoroughly Japanese and written by an author who has more than a few times said he's surprised how popular Naruto is internationally, I thought it would be interesting to get other opinions on this.

 

How much does Japanese culture, both modern and traditional, play a part in the manga?

 

No offense, but this is not "cultural differences" conversation, this is just "Hinata sucks, Sakura rulez" thread (again) which is bleeding from several wounds.

 

HInata didn't change? Her love for Naruto didn't, but she became far stronger than Part I, learned many techniques of her clan, became more determined and independent, saved Neji from white Zetsus (chapter 525-526), obtained a Byakugan stronger and better than Neji's (Hinata's 10 km, Neji's only 500-600 m) and in the end she finally got Naruto's acknowledge that she is strong (also mentioning that he had to be saved by her several times). Also, despite that Neji lashed his anger on Hinata because of her father she still didn't had any hatred towards Neji.

 

What you wrotte about Sakura is also something that can backfire, specialy her "relationships": despite Sai told into her face that Naruto has feelings for her she didn't care about it infact simply friendzoned Naruto while she was still loving Sasuke - so much about "Hinata is the old forgiving one lady".

 

Sorry, but I hoped that there will be really some cultural comparsion and not character bashing - I like Sakura, but I hate glorifing her by bashing other characters.