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#361 catsi563

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Posted 02 November 2009 - 04:19 AM

Soupy the only time she brings it up is when she tries to stop Sasuke from leaving.

or I should say it is the first time she brings it up.

to whit chapter 181 page 8

she says and I quote "you remember dont you?"

"when we became genins, when our three man team was first decided."

the first time we were here by ourselves you were so mad at me."

they are standing at the bench that very moment. next she recalls how she was being told off by Sasuke and called annoying.

its interesitng that she recalls the moment where he calls her annoying and tells her about the pain of being alone instead of trying to get him to remember their "near kiss"

thats why I still think shes got that moment in her mind. the moment she fell in love with him. And the moment where everything changed for her.

She cant understand why he could go from so gentle and warm to so cruel and cold in such a short time.

But worse why doesnt he remember it? is he protecting her? does he trully not care? or not remember?

she needs to confront this moment not jsut sasuke but this moment one more time to come to the truth.

and my goodness that truth is going to be explosive.

because the sheer notion that Naruto who at that time she thought couldnt udnerstand her, didnt know her at all.

could read her so perfectly that he could acknowledge her and speak her fantasy out loud is an amazing thing.

and that scene was there for a reaosn beyond just having naruto and Sakura almost kiss beyond naruto finding out why he liked Sakura.

it will come up again before all is said and done

Hope true enough. he does respond to her more agressive style.

to use Ciardhas analogy, it may very well take Sakura give hima clue by 4 upside the head to get it through that they ahve changed.

Edited by catsi563, 02 November 2009 - 04:20 AM.

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#362 Froot

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Posted 02 November 2009 - 04:34 AM

^ laugh.gif

Yup yup yup, that whole ch 3 bench scene is too big a Team 7 moment to be left unresolved. Like catsi said, it will be huge.

And when I say team 7 moment, I mean a developmental moment for Sakura - one she cites later in another important team 7 moment - For Sasuke, showing a bit more about himself to the readers and how he feels about Sakura, as well as how he can sympathize with Naruto's lonliless, and for Naruto, it shows his feelings for Sakura and how well he understands her - as well as maybe learning how she feels about him and starting the whole ''Sakura doesn't like me'' illusion.

It's a very personal moment for each of them (Sasuke, not as much,) but they're each connected in that moment in some form.

After all, Sakura called it ''the beginning of you and me... Naruto and Kakashi-sensei...''

#363 Chew

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Posted 02 November 2009 - 05:04 AM

QUOTE (Froot @ Nov 1 2009, 08:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
^ laugh.gif

Yup yup yup, that whole ch 3 bench scene is too big a Team 7 moment to be left unresolved. Like catsi said, it will be huge.

And when I say team 7 moment, I mean a developmental moment for Sakura - one she cites later in another important team 7 moment - For Sasuke, showing a bit more about himself to the readers and how he feels about Sakura, as well as how he can sympathize with Naruto's lonliless, and for Naruto, it shows his feelings for Sakura and how well he understands her - as well as maybe learning how she feels about him and starting the whole ''Sakura doesn't like me'' illusion.

It's a very personal moment for each of them (Sasuke, not as much,) but they're each connected in that moment in some form.

After all, Sakura called it ''the beginning of you and me... Naruto and Kakashi-sensei...''



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Edit: and of course, I concur biggrin.gif

Edited by Chew, 02 November 2009 - 05:04 AM.

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#364 Merger Knight

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Posted 02 November 2009 - 05:10 AM

QUOTE (tricksie @ Nov 1 2009, 09:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Also, both Jiraiya and Tsunade's lives were altered by Orochimaru's defection. There was "a time before" and "a time after" that was hinges around Oro. Jiraiya might have stayed, things could have been different for him and Tsu if he had not left. Their relationship with him was not fleshed out because it's not important to the big picture. What the readers have to take away from that is Jiraiya and Tsunade were not able to move past Orochimaru's betrayal and he spent the rest of his life observing him still Naruto stumbled into him.


what chapters or epiosdes talk about that?


QUOTE (catsi563 @ Nov 1 2009, 01:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
These below are my thoughts to clarify Sakuras mistake in this chapter to a person on the talk naruto forums.

it may explain why she has reacted like she has.

My own thoughts --Click here to view--
i grant this is my own interpretation base don manga evidence and so is subject to change based on the manga but its still solid.

Sakura started out with a crush on Sasuke. Naruto had a crush on Sakura. this much is not in dispute.

Sakura disliked naruto and found him annoying due to his clumsy attempts to ask her out which were embarrasing her and in her mind naruto didnt understand her and was always trying to interfere with her life and liked to see her fail.

Now heres where things get a little funky. the day they became a team Naruto wanted to know why he liked Sakura. So he beats Sasuke ((signifigant moment)) and henges into him.

then as Sakura sits there and day dreams. Naruto shows that he trully understands her better than even she knows. he repeats her day dream word for word.

they talk and he learns finally why he likes her so much. Shes like him willing to do anything to be acknowledged by people especilly that special person.

they almsot kiss but narutos bad diet catches up to him and he runs off.

Now view this scene from Sakuras persepctive. she ahs a crush on Sasuke but is in despair that he will ever come around.

then SUDDENLY BOOM!! theres Sasuke in a halo glory like moment standing there and he speaks her day dream word for word. he acknowledges her and her dreams and almsot kisses her.

For Sakura this is a singular moment. a moment where she goes from a childish crush to falling in love with her dream man.

And theres the key.

Because mere moments later the real Sasuke comes along. And a fooled Sakura thinking hes ready to continue where they left off resumes their conversation. Sasuke of course has no clue what shes talking about but he plays along in order to find Naruto.

now Sakura of course still at this time doesnt understand Naruto as well as she thinks she does. So she speaks of his not having parents and how lucky he is in a fashion showing her early immaturity.

Sasuke of course coldy informs her of jsut how lucky she is to have parents and a bed time and to be grounded by someone who cares about you as he empathizes with narutos pain of lonliness.

to Sasuke this reinforces Sakura as a selfish little girl and thats all he needs to know.

for Sakura though this shakes her a bit. one moment Sasukes being kind and warm and gentle ((Naruto in disguise)) acknoiwledges her and romances her.

and the enxt hes being cold and distant.

She decides on the spot to be nicer to Naruto. tries being the opperative word. shes still young and fallible but hey. is a start in the right direction.

later on when Sasuke leaves. She confronts him and tries to stop him from leaving going as far as to confess her love for him.

but keep this in context. She is confessing to the Sasuke she met on the bench that day. she even says it herself. to which Sasuke responds No I dont remember it at all.

because he trully doesnt.

he wasnt there.

And thats the Key moment. Its a moment to me that stands out because it brings to light the feelings of Naruto and Sakura in a clear way, and establishes the basis for some conflicts to follow including this one.

Skaura is still laboring under the illusion of a kind warm sasuke who acknowledged her.

and before things are done shes going to need to confront him one last time about that bench scene.

its then and there that shes going to learn a surprising truth.

and then some fireworks are really going to fly.

Naruto on the other hand is laboring under the illusion that Sakura is still in love with sasuke and wont change ever. He needs to open up to the possibility that She can change towards him and away from Sasuke.

moreso Im beginning to wonder if Narutos words to Sakura when he returned may have a slightly deeper meaning the even i realized.

My initial reaction to his words was he was saying in his own clueless way that he thought she was still the same beautiful Sakura he liked.

this while Sakura was flirting with him and asking if shed grown up and become more womanly.

Heck even naruto isnt THAT clueless.

So im beginning to wonder if Naruto was made to proceed from that feeling of Sakura in love with Sasuke = never be in love with Naruto= she hasnt changed.

a failure of perception is whats at issue her for both sides and both sides are going to have to open their collective eyes before things can change for the better


Youve put a lot of thought into that

#365 Froot

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Posted 02 November 2009 - 05:41 AM

QUOTE (Chew @ Nov 2 2009, 12:04 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Didn't I call you a guru for a reason? T_T *tears of joy* beautiful post whatthekitten.gif



Edit: and of course, I concur biggrin.gif



happy.gif Thank you! I've been really trying to keep peoples' faith in NaruSaku afloat, but doubt is never very bouyant, and it's been hard. But really, all the credit should go to catsi, Soupy and ciardha for making all the best points. I mean, they just make sense. yes.gif

#366 Chesh

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Posted 02 November 2009 - 02:01 PM

These are all great posts i just hope we get some information on chapter 470 early like we did last week

The wait is killing me

NxS foreva

Edited by Chesh, 02 November 2009 - 02:02 PM.

I'm making perfect sense your just not keeping up

#367 Paptala

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Posted 02 November 2009 - 05:55 PM

QUOTE (ciardha @ Oct 31 2009, 05:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Naruto is being kind of a self-righteous ass and definitely being a hypocrite. He's lied to himself about Sasuke as well, and convinced Sakura to continue to lie to herself about Sasuke. She has faced the reality about Sasuke far more than Naruto. She is farther from Sasuke than Naruto is, because she has at least intellectually faced the reality. Naruto is still lying to himself intellectually and emotionally about Sasuke, he's lying to himself about not noticing Sakura's feelings- we saw him notice it (more than once! Outright gets hacked off at Sai for interrupting a romantic moment between himself and Sakura in 343) But oh now when he's being Mr. self-righteous hypocrite he pretends like this is some complete sudden 180 from Sakura. Bull! He just chooses to lie to himself because he's got another annoying part 2 development- a martyr's complex when it comes to emotional bonds. It something that could easily slip into Sasuke's or Nagato's attitude about his level of pain being the worse of anyone ever...

Ugh. Gaara, despite having a far worse childhood than Naruto has gone a lot further- no martyr's complex from him. He was equally astounded by his village's embrace of him as a hero, but he's maturely accepted it well, without getting an ego. Gaara was not wanting to kill Sasuke either at first, but Temari made a shorthand version of Shikamaru's words to Sakura and Gaara, like Sakura, understood it was intellectually the truth.

At this point I'm kind of feeling a bit that Naruto needs to get a real rival for Sakura's affections- his deliberate pretending he never noticed her feelings before was really obnxious. then acting like a self righteous hypocrite on top of that.

I'd like to see Gaara step in and gently lecture Naruto about how he's lying to himself by this behavior. Then say to Sakura how her caring nature for others had touched a part of him even when he was crazy with hatred, and that if Naruto chooses to reject her over an action that actually came from her heart, then he is now free to speak his feelings for her.

Heh, Sakura would be so stunned, but wouldn't freak out like when Lee made his confession back in part 1. If Naruto had a real but mature and polite rival, instead the fake rivalry with his illusion of Sasuke it would give him the clue-by-four he needs to actually notice how Sakura isn't the Sasuke fangirl his martyr's complex makes him lie to himself and believe. I'd love to see Sakura respond to Gaara "I'm sorry, but I love Naruto too much to say yes to you."

Bet Gaara would smile gently back and say "I know."

Sorry, but I think you're being way too harsh on Naruto here. He called bullsh** on her confession because half of it looked like bullsh**. The panels where she was talking about her feelings for Naruto were ambiguous, but the panels where she talked about Sasuke was definitely a lie. She plastered fake smiles onto her face and avoided Naruto's questions when he asked her what was wrong and what had happened.

Also, we don't what Naruto is calling her out exactly anyway. For all we know, he could just be calling her out on her feelings for Sasuke, not her feelings for him.

Either way, Naruto isn't doing this because of some self righteous self sacrificing notion of his - one of his main goals was to make Sakura happy, and if he doesn't feel that what she's saying is sincere, he's going to call her on it, because if she's just lying to herself about this, than accepting the lie would only be hurting both of them in the long run.

Just like Sakura isn't doing this just to try and ease any sense of personal guilt on her part.

They both have good intentions, intentions only to protect the other, but are fumbling it badly and hurting each other unintentionally in the process.

Naruto and Sakura are both equally at fault for where they are now, in my opinion.

They've tried too hard to protect each other that they've held back from each other emotionally, and now they are at the point where they need to be honest with each other and with themselves.

Is Naruto being a hypocrite here? Yes, he is. Is he being an ass? No - he's doing what he thinks is best, just like Sakura is. Naruto's no more of an ass for his response than Sakura is a b*tch for this fudged up confession.

I'm not trying to attack your views or anything, I just didn't agree with some of your points on who is at fault in this scenario.
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#368 James S Cassidy

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Posted 02 November 2009 - 06:07 PM

QUOTE (Paptala @ Nov 2 2009, 10:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Is Naruto being a hypocrite here? Yes, he is. Is he being an ass? No - he's doing what he thinks is best, just like Sakura is. Naruto's no more of an ass for his response than Sakura is a b*tch for this fudged up confession.

I'm not trying to attack your views or anything, I just didn't agree with some of your points on who is at fault in this scenario.


I also like to say that they are human. I bet anyone here that if they were in the same situation they might say the same thing. If you say "No I wouldn't" then as Naruto would say "You are lying to yourself"

Kishimoto is doing a VERY good job at portraying human emotions. It's not black and white, it's many forms and shades of grey. Humans will make mistakes, but the good ones will always try to make these feelings truthful.

Naruto is being an ass about it, but Sakura is coming on too strong that seems almost fake so I can see why he doesn't take it as truth. Naruto just wants to make sure that Sakura is doing this because she truly does love him. Not to give him what he wants so she can save her crushes life.

Naruto wants to make sure that if she truly does love him, that she is happy about it. I would be the same way. I would love her too much and I would make sure she is happy, even if it is not with me.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 02 November 2009 - 06:08 PM.

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#369 RedDelicious

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Posted 02 November 2009 - 06:07 PM

QUOTE (Paptala @ Nov 2 2009, 12:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
...but the panels where she talked about Sasuke was definitely a lie.


I think it is very possible that her feelings significantly shifted in chapter 459, in which case Sakura saying she no longer cares romantically about Sasuke is not a lie.

We'll find out soon enough (unless Kisame spends too much time playing with the big bear and the rapping Bee).

#370 Miss Soupy

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Posted 02 November 2009 - 06:17 PM

@Paptala

Couldn't agree more. The thing is, Naruto's line of "I hate people who lie to themselves!" is a very general statement. Naruto isn't pinpointing any one phrase or even encompassing the entire confession with this statement. He is being general because Naruto probably doesn't know any more than we do exactly what all Sakura is lying about. Only Sakura knows what she was telling the truth about, and we haven't heard from Sakura yet.

#371 Mik3

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Posted 02 November 2009 - 07:10 PM

QUOTE (Miss Soupy @ Nov 2 2009, 01:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
@Paptala

Couldn't agree more. The thing is, Naruto's line of "I hate people who lie to themselves!" is a very general statement. Naruto isn't pinpointing any one phrase or even encompassing the entire confession with this statement. He is being general because Naruto probably doesn't know any more than we do exactly what all Sakura is lying about. Only Sakura knows what she was telling the truth about, and we haven't heard from Sakura yet.


Yea that statement has been take out of context by a bunch of people I talked to on some other forums. Its stupid.
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#372 Strangelove

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Posted 02 November 2009 - 07:18 PM

QUOTE (Mik3 @ Nov 2 2009, 07:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yea that statement has been take out of context by a bunch of people I talked to on some other forums. Its stupid.


Let me guess. "I hate people who lie to themselves" = "I hate you Sakura"

Edited by Strangelove, 02 November 2009 - 07:18 PM.

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#373 Mik3

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Posted 02 November 2009 - 07:22 PM

QUOTE (Strangelove @ Nov 2 2009, 02:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Let me guess. "I hate people who lie to themselves" = "I hate you Sakura"


Pretty much. And they are over analyzing it, even leading to a possible confession to Hinata. When shes been gone for a while once again. Thats pretty much her role in this manga. Not being there.
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#374 Strangelove

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Posted 02 November 2009 - 07:26 PM

QUOTE (Mik3 @ Nov 2 2009, 07:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Pretty much. And they are over analyzing it, even leading to a possible confession to Hinata. When shes been gone for a while once again. Thats pretty much her role in this manga. Not being there.


that's pretty much out of his character really. But then again we don't know what kind of impact the Hinata confession has had on Naruto.

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#375 catsi563

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Posted 02 November 2009 - 07:59 PM

theyre relating it in the same way they related the I like people like you speech.

I hate people who lie to themselves ((still think thats a mistranslation)) = I hate you sakura

I like people like you = I like you hinata.

its ridiculous. the usual amount of over analyzation.
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#376 RyrineaHaruno

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Posted 02 November 2009 - 08:45 PM

QUOTE (catsi563 @ Nov 2 2009, 01:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
theyre relating it in the same way they related the I like people like you speech.

I hate people who lie to themselves ((still think thats a mistranslation)) = I hate you sakura

I like people like you = I like you hinata.

its ridiculous. the usual amount of over analyzation.



Agreed ^^.

#377 Merger Knight

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Posted 02 November 2009 - 10:44 PM

QUOTE (Mik3 @ Nov 2 2009, 02:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Pretty much. And they are over analyzing it, even leading to a possible confession to Hinata. When shes been gone for a while once again. Thats pretty much her role in this manga. Not being there.


Hinata???

I think i remember her

#378 AnimeLeader

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Posted 02 November 2009 - 11:26 PM

Wow people are making spoilers already. Most of them are tricking everyone. Man these people like playing mind games.
http://naruto-spoilers.blogspot.com/

#379 Strangelove

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Posted 02 November 2009 - 11:42 PM

QUOTE (AnimeLeader @ Nov 2 2009, 11:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Wow people are making spoilers already. Most of them are tricking everyone. Man these people like playing mind games.
http://naruto-spoilers.blogspot.com/


they're not real, wait till Wednesday.

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#380 Derock

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Posted 02 November 2009 - 11:42 PM

QUOTE (AnimeLeader @ Nov 2 2009, 06:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Wow people are making spoilers already. Most of them are tricking everyone. Man these people like playing mind games.
http://naruto-spoilers.blogspot.com/


I wouldn't worry. They are very fake. Wait for the official ones from NF or Mangahelpers.

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