54175 replies to this topic

[DrK]

And the fact that he's just forgiven because "friendship". Sasuke should have either died or been a rogue ninja part of Orochimaru's group and married to Karin.

He should have had his eyes removed. Because he was corrupted by the drive to gain more power to accomplish his goals, which caused him to hurt others. So as penance he should lose that power in an obvious, physically apparent way that makes him change how he lives his life, and the literal way he views other people. So he can't hold himself as more superior or worthy anymore. But that kind of thing would have gone way over Kishimoto's head, apparently. What use are literary devices when you can churn out a bad sequel with kids to make money?

Edited by DrK, 04 February 2018 - 09:23 PM.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

He should have had his eyes removed. Because he was corrupted by the drive to gain more power to accomplish his goals, which caused him to hurt others. So as penance he should lose that power in an obvious, physically apparent way that makes him change how he lives his life, and the literal way he views other people. So he can't hold himself as more superior or worthy anymore. But that kind of thing would have gone way over Kishimoto's head, apparently. What use are literary devices when you can churn out a bad sequel with kids to make money?

 

No kidding. XP

[Derock]

He should have had his eyes removed. Because he was corrupted by the drive to gain more power to accomplish his goals, which caused him to hurt others. So as penance he should lose that power in an obvious, physically apparent way that makes him change how he lives his life, and the literal way he views other people. So he can't hold himself as more superior or worthy anymore. But that kind of thing would have gone way over Kishimoto's head, apparently. What use are literary devices when you can churn out a bad sequel with kids to make money?

 

I was predicting he should experience blindness because he was using the Sharingan excessively right after the Team 7 arc. But no, after the BS with the war... ugh. That and permit memory loss, something to make Sasuke less OP.

[Phantom_999]

I'm pretty sure Making Sasuke OP was a by product of Making Naruto OP. Because everytime Naruto becomes Stronger It's like Sasuke can't catch up to him unless he gets a BS power up too. that's how I see it at least. And Then came the Hagaromo power ups and everything after that went to s#%!

 

For instance I think the Rasenshuriken had such a huge Handicap on on it was because it was written as such a deadly move that if Naruto used it on anyone without a huge superhuman healing factor (namely Sasuke), it's an instant win for him

Edited by Phantom_999, 04 February 2018 - 10:40 PM.

[Tsuki Hoshino]

 

I was predicting he should experience blindness because he was using the Sharingan excessively right after the Team 7 arc. But no, after the BS with the war... ugh. That and permit memory loss, something to make Sasuke less OP.

Permanent Amnesia would have been a blessing for Sasuke and everyone around him TBH. 

Then he could have had a chance at being a decent human being for once

[James S Cassidy]

 

...And the fact he caved into money, editorial pressure, and a toxic minority of the mass majority of the fandom...

I really don't think he did it for money. Honestly, Kishimoto had more money than he knew what to do with and he was getting more everyday. It seems more like he actually just stopped caring about Naruto as a story. The rest of the stuff people wrote for him.

Really go back and you can just see where the writing doesn't seem to flow. It was going good til the Pain arc, but the rest it seems like he couldn't care less. He just kept making things ambiguous because the editors told him to and they were making the movie. They say it is written by him, but for an author that says "I tried staying away from romance cause I am no good at it" only to go make a whole movie around the subject seems quite unlike him.

No, I think he just gave up. He only cared about one thing and that was the Sasuke and Naruto relationship. We know this because it is the only thing he put effort in. Everything else was just "blah blah fill whatever in to make sense."

I wonder what is worse...an author who sells out or an author that just loses interest.

[Phantom_999]

An author that loses interest, hands down. An author who sells out COULD still potentially be invested in the writing structure and integrity of their story IF they want to KEEP making money from the masses and that is still a motivation for them to keep it popular if not to the same quality writing. An author who loses interest has no motivation to do anything productive with their story.

 

Of course Kishimoto is someone that did BOTH so that makes him even worse than either or. He didn't sell out for the money, but he sold out because he didn't want to write that story anymore BECAUSE of his lack of interest towards Naruto's end

Edited by Phantom_999, 04 February 2018 - 11:40 PM.

[DrK]

I really don't think he did it for money. Honestly, Kishimoto had more money than he knew what to do with and he was getting more everyday. It seems more like he actually just stopped caring about Naruto as a story. The rest of the stuff people wrote for him.

That would explain why he kept doing scenes that didn't make sense given the end pairings. He storyboarded or brainstormed them a long time ago and didn't want to come up with something new, and like you said, didn't care.

[Nostradamus]

I'm on the side of him saying "F it. I'm done. I want out.", not on the side of him being a greedy bastard that wanted more money. While of course it's possible. It's improbable. And I'm basing this on the outcome of it.

If he really just wanted more money, then why didn't he just continue manga for another couple of years? Why did he stop and let someone else take over?

Of course maybe he didn't want to work as much, but that raises the question, why not be in charge but let others work for you? Like Toriyama does with Dragon Ball Super. If you don't know what I mean, Toriyama is the guy in charge of the anime, but he's not the one that writes each episode and the dialogue in it. He just gives directions towards where the story is headed and the people working for him do it. Basically he's the boss is the easiest explanation. And in this case the anime is canon. 

While the manga is done by Toyotarou, and he has a little bit of freedom to do as he wants provided it ends in the same place as Toriyama wants it to.

 

Also why did he say all the dumb stuff in those interviews? If you want more money from people, you don't insult them or do anything to turn them away from your product. Unless you don't care anymore.

And other things that I'm too tired now to talk about. The possibility of him selling out is there, it's just that I don't really see it.

 

Make no mistake this was move to make more money, but the move didn't come from him. It came from the money people, who's job is to make money. Now in a lot of places, these people are idiots. And that's because they're disconnected from the product they're trying to sell.

A recent example are the money people behind the newest Star Wars games, they're puzzled why they're not selling as well as they wanted. And they said they don't understand why SW games aren't selling when it's Star Wars. They just can't understand that a name alone will not result in success. The product also has to be good.

And I'm pretty sure the money people behind Naruto's ending and everything that came after also had the same thought. I mean we made NH canon, so why aren't people buying more??? That's what they want, right??? Come on it's NH. Buy. Buy. Buy.

 

Now that does not mean I view Kishi as a victim in all of this. He holds just as much blame as all the rest.

[ree]

I've been reading all the comments and I got a cuestion. Is it Boruto going bad at sales ?. Because it is true why they keep making more episodes and don't finished it ?

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

He should have had his eyes removed. Because he was corrupted by the drive to gain more power to accomplish his goals, which caused him to hurt others. So as penance he should lose that power in an obvious, physically apparent way that makes him change how he lives his life, and the literal way he views other people. So he can't hold himself as more superior or worthy anymore. But that kind of thing would have gone way over Kishimoto's head, apparently. What use are literary devices when you can churn out a bad sequel with kids to make money?

I've always said that Sasuke dying would be too easy and "merciful", and it wouldn't actually have Sasuke learn anything. We've already seen that, even in the face of death (like the Kage Summit), he wasn't remorseful of anything. The only way he might have learned anything was to blind, physically cripple him, and/or destroy his chakra coils  - take away the things he himself believed made him "strong" or "stronger than anyone else" and bring him down to, and below, everyone else's "level", but this time, unable to do anything about it himself.

 

I'm pretty sure Making Sasuke OP was a by product of Making Naruto OP. Because everytime Naruto becomes Stronger It's like Sasuke can't catch up to him unless he gets a BS power up too. that's how I see it at least. And Then came the Hagaromo power ups and everything after that went to s#%!

 

For instance I think the Rasenshuriken had such a huge Handicap on on it was because it was written as such a deadly move that if Naruto used it on anyone without a huge superhuman healing factor (namely Sasuke), it's an instant win for him

I think it's more the other way around - Sasuke was made OP compared to an overall virtually unchanged Naruto (as evidenced by their first Shippuden encounter), so Naruto was put on a path to becoming stronger by getting the Rasenshuriken, then Sasuke was handed the Mangekyo after his fight with Itachi, but after realizing how OP that was, Naruto was made to have Sage Mode (which also bypassed any need to take time to truly master the Rasenshuriken), but after beating Pein, who had "the strongest doujutsu", Sasuke needed to be made stronger again, and it just kept escalating.

Probably a poor attempt to emulate Toriyama and DBZ with Goku and Vegeta.

 

I really don't think he did it for money. Honestly, Kishimoto had more money than he knew what to do with and he was getting more everyday. It seems more like he actually just stopped caring about Naruto as a story. The rest of the stuff people wrote for him.

Really go back and you can just see where the writing doesn't seem to flow. It was going good til the Pain arc, but the rest it seems like he couldn't care less. He just kept making things ambiguous because the editors told him to and they were making the movie. They say it is written by him, but for an author that says "I tried staying away from romance cause I am no good at it" only to go make a whole movie around the subject seems quite unlike him.

No, I think he just gave up. He only cared about one thing and that was the Sasuke and Naruto relationship. We know this because it is the only thing he put effort in. Everything else was just "blah blah fill whatever in to make sense."

I wonder what is worse...an author who sells out or an author that just loses interest.

It wouldn't surprise me if, from a very general narrative point (ignoring specific loose ends for a moment), the Pein Arc was where he wanted it to end - Naruto beat the "leader" of Akatsuki who had "the strongest doujutsu", earned the acknowledgement of his village, earned the affection of the girl he loved (the hug) while Hinatatas would move on from him...it all had the makings of a happy conclusion...until he was forced to keep going and going and going...

[Phantom_999]

 

I think it's more the other way around - Sasuke was made OP compared to an overall virtually unchanged Naruto (as evidenced by their first Shippuden encounter), so Naruto was put on a path to becoming stronger by getting the Rasenshuriken, then Sasuke was handed the Mangekyo after his fight with Itachi, but after realizing how OP that was, Naruto was made to have Sage Mode (which also bypassed any need to take time to truly master the Rasenshuriken), but after beating Pein, who had "the strongest doujutsu", Sasuke needed to be made stronger again, and it just kept escalating.

Probably a poor attempt to emulate Toriyama and DBZ with Goku and Vegeta.

 

 

Well true enough, but in all honesty I think that Naruto's powerups always sort of one up Sasuke until the MS and even then the MS has a particular fatal flaw so it wasn't practical to use as self demonstrated during the Kage summit arc. Then Naruto got full control of Kurama's chakra and that was it REALLY started to go in his favor and Sasuke had to Get BS power ups to even keep up with him. So really it was not really question of who became OP first, Naruto just had stronger and somewhat more usable power ups when ever he gets them and Kishi doesn't want to make Sasuke look weak in comparison so that is why he gave Sasuke so many c&*% strokes and handed him power on a silver platter and without training after he was reintroduced in Part II

Edited by Phantom_999, 07 February 2018 - 07:17 PM.

[DrK]

 

Well true enough, but in all honesty I think that Naruto's powerups always sort of one up Sasuke up until the MS and even then the MS has a particular fatal flaw so it wasn't practical to use as self demonstrated during the Kage summit arc. Then Naruto got full control of Kurama's chakra and that was it REALLY started to go in his favor and Sasuke had to Get BS power ups to even keep up with him. So really it was not really question of who became OP first, Naruto just had stronger and somewhat more usable power ups when ever he gets them and Kishi doesn't want to make Sasuke look weak in comparison so that is why he gave Sasuke so many c&*% strokes and handed him power on a silver platter and without training after he was reintroduced in Part II

I really think the story would have been more interesting if Sasuke didn't share the spotlight. Like if he just sort of faded into the background after the Danzo thing, and then during the war arc he'd show up as a big surprise and help Naruto. Instead of thi stupid rivalry fated brotherhood BS. Where he even gets, ridiculously, acknowledged by all 4 Hokages like he's some special golden god. Itachi was the one who was special. He would have been so weak without Itachi it's crazy to think about.

Edited by DrK, 07 February 2018 - 02:18 AM.

[RulesofNature]

I've been reading all the comments and I got a cuestion. Is it Boruto going bad at sales ?. Because it is true why they keep making more episodes and don't finished it ?

 

One of the things you have to realize is making TV shows in Japan is a little different than it is in the US. In the US, they'll make a pilot episode and begin shopping it around to different networks. If a network is interested they'll order X number of episodes, essentially buying the show in order to air it. In Japan, studios create their shows and then rent the timeslot by the cour (calendar season) (the studios make their money with merchandise sales). So if a show is scheduled to last a year (or four cours), they the people making it have to pay a year's worth of rent (based on what time it airs) and on top of that are responsible for filling that timeslot. This is why it's pretty hard nowadays for a show to get cancelled.

 

For instance, Sunrise aired a show last year called Brave Beats that was supposed to last four cours. It bombed hard enough that around the end of the first cour, they announced it was being cancelled after the second cour. The reason they could do this, however, was because they planned to cut up the Gundam Unicorn OVA (as well as add a lot of recaps) and air it in it's stead. If Sunrise didn't air a show, it would have looked really bad and would have lost them the timeslot. Or you get cases like Gundam SEED Destiny, where they were so far behind schedule they had two recap episodes during it's final cour and recycled animation from Gundam SEED (even copy pasting the final battle) in order to get stuff to air on time. Sunrise is responsible for filling the airtime it rented no matter what.

 

We know they already set aside something like 50 episodes around Boruto. The real question is whether they will make more which is based more on how well the merch sells than the ratings. Gundam IBO, for instance, had worse ratings than Gundam AGE (a notorious flop) but got a second season due to it's ability to sell model kits. Gundam Build Fighters had the lowest ratings in the history of the franchise, but they cranked out a sequel (not to mention spinoffs) in 6 months because it sold model kits like crazy.

Edited by RulesofNature, 07 February 2018 - 05:06 AM.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

 

Well true enough, but in all honesty I think that Naruto's powerups always sort of one up Sasuke up until the MS and even then the MS has a particular fatal flaw so it wasn't practical to use as self demonstrated during the Kage summit arc. Then Naruto got full control of Kurama's chakra and that was it REALLY started to go in his favor and Sasuke had to Get BS power ups to even keep up with him. So really it was not really question of who became OP first, Naruto just had stronger and somewhat more usable power ups when ever he gets them and Kishi doesn't want to make Sasuke look weak in comparison so that is why he gave Sasuke so many c&*% strokes and handed him power on a silver platter and without training after he was reintroduced in Part II

 

Hell, I figured even his power when he showed up again the first time around that Sasuke might have used some drugs from Orochimaru and Kabuto to enhance his powers on top of the tricks and training he gained from Orochimaru.

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

 

One of the things you have to realize is making TV shows in Japan is a little different than it is in the US. In the US, they'll make a pilot episode and begin shopping it around to different networks. If a network is interested they'll order X number of episodes, essentially buying the show in order to air it. In Japan, studios create their shows and then rent the timeslot by the cour (calendar season) (the studios make their money with merchandise sales). So if a show is scheduled to last a year (or four cours), they the people making it have to pay a year's worth of rent (based on what time it airs) and on top of that are responsible for filling that timeslot. This is why it's pretty hard nowadays for a show to get cancelled.

 

For instance, Sunrise aired a show last year called Brave Beats that was supposed to last four cours. It bombed hard enough that around the end of the first cour, they announced it was being cancelled after the second cour. The reason they could do this, however, was because they planned to cut up the Gundam Unicorn OVA (as well as add a lot of recaps) and air it in it's stead. If Sunrise didn't air a show, it would have looked really bad and would have lost them the timeslot. Or you get cases like Gundam SEED Destiny, where they were so far behind schedule they had two recap episodes during it's final cour and recycled animation from Gundam SEED (even copy pasting the final battle) in order to get stuff to air on time. Sunrise is responsible for filling the airtime it rented no matter what.

 

We know they already set aside something like 50 episodes around Boruto. The real question is whether they will make more which is based more on how well the merch sells than the ratings. Gundam IBO, for instance, had worse ratings than Gundam AGE (a notorious flop) but got a second season due to it's ability to sell model kits. Gundam Build Fighters had the lowest ratings in the history of the franchise, but they cranked out a sequel (not to mention spinoffs) in 6 months because it sold model kits like crazy.

Which is kind of surprising. I personally liked IBO overall and thought it one of the best AU Gundam series' in a while. No masterpiece, but still enjoyable compared to the likes of Wing, SEED / SEED Destiny, 00 season 2, and the last 1/3 of AGE (I liked the first two AGE Arcs overall though), and also had a lot of fun with both seasons of Gundam Build Fighters.

[James S Cassidy]

I'm on the side of him saying "F it. I'm done. I want out.", not on the side of him being a greedy bastard that wanted more money. While of course it's possible. It's improbable. And I'm basing this on the outcome of it.

If he really just wanted more money, then why didn't he just continue manga for another couple of years? Why did he stop and let someone else take over?

Of course maybe he didn't want to work as much, but that raises the question, why not be in charge but let others work for you? Like Toriyama does with Dragon Ball Super. If you don't know what I mean, Toriyama is the guy in charge of the anime, but he's not the one that writes each episode and the dialogue in it. He just gives directions towards where the story is headed and the people working for him do it. Basically he's the boss is the easiest explanation. And in this case the anime is canon. 

While the manga is done by Toyotarou, and he has a little bit of freedom to do as he wants provided it ends in the same place as Toriyama wants it to.

 

Also why did he say all the dumb stuff in those interviews? If you want more money from people, you don't insult them or do anything to turn them away from your product. Unless you don't care anymore.

And other things that I'm too tired now to talk about. The possibility of him selling out is there, it's just that I don't really see it.

 

Make no mistake this was move to make more money, but the move didn't come from him. It came from the money people, who's job is to make money. Now in a lot of places, these people are idiots. And that's because they're disconnected from the product they're trying to sell.

A recent example are the money people behind the newest Star Wars games, they're puzzled why they're not selling as well as they wanted. And they said they don't understand why SW games aren't selling when it's Star Wars. They just can't understand that a name alone will not result in success. The product also has to be good.

And I'm pretty sure the money people behind Naruto's ending and everything that came after also had the same thought. I mean we made NH canon, so why aren't people buying more??? That's what they want, right??? Come on it's NH. Buy. Buy. Buy.

 

Now that does not mean I view Kishi as a victim in all of this. He holds just as much blame as all the rest.

 

I think The War Arc was when Kishimoto really gave up. Now whether or not the changes were good or bad (mostly bad) you can see Kishimoto begin this "I give up, do whatever you want and I just draw" when his editors started to take control. I am making a small list here of things I know were changed due to editor influence and most happen after the Pein Arc.

 

-Kishi said the Kakuzu and Hidan arc was suppose to be longer but SJ told him to cut it short to get back to Sasuke. And that Hidan was suppose to return in the War arc but he admitted that he literally got lazy with drawing and didn’t want to add more characters because it meant drawing them.

-Kishi has repeatedly said Sakura is the heroine even well into the War Arc, only to turn around and claim Hinata was always the heroine after the series ended. His editors and SJ also kept pushing for Hinata to be the heroine for along time.

-Kishi said Sasuke and Naruto were suppose to be holding hands in 698 but SJ told him he can’t do that.

-Sasuke wasn’t even suppose to exist and was added at the suggestion of his editors.

-Same thing for the Chunin Exams Arc, Kishi’s editors literally told him he had to do it instead of his original idea of slowly introducing many characters over several chapters/arcs and he regrets not being able to do what he wanted. He just wanted to show Naruto going on missions and learning about the outside world.

-Once again, even Orochimaru and his involvement in the Chunin Exams Arc was not his decision. His editors told him he needed a villain and that he had to make the Chunin Exams not finish. Shikamaru was also suppose to be the winner, instead of losing to Temari.

-Kishi admitted the idea of Kekkei Genkai, Sharingan and the like in the Land of Waves arc was just a “bluff” that he did not plan on getting in to at all.

-The Mifune/Hanzo fight was cut short because his editors hated it and told him he needed to end it very quickly and get back to the main cast, but Kishi really wanted to write it.

-Pretty much the entire Kobayashi interview is Kishi going “I didn’t know what I was doing the majority of the time and when I did know what I was doing my editors made me do something else because they didn’t like it.”

I am sure you guys can think of more.

Would it be so hard to believe that NH and SS were NOT Kishimoto's decision at all and was really the product of forced involvement by the SP or SJ teams? I would like to think so. Does this make Kishimoto blameless? No, but I really think there was more to it than is put on. The Naruto the Last movie was in production two years before the ending of Naruto which means it was planned to force NH together by the end. Now why would you need to do that if NH was going to be canon anyway? You wouldn't. It was a forced hand put on Kishimoto saying "You need to make NH canon because we made the movie about NH." This is why Kishimoto was so ambiguous.

This also feels like why a lot of the plot points seem out of place.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

 

I think The War Arc was when Kishimoto really gave up. Now whether or not the changes were good or bad (mostly bad) you can see Kishimoto begin this "I give up, do whatever you want and I just draw" when his editors started to take control. I am making a small list here of things I know were changed due to editor influence and most happen after the Pein Arc.

 

-Kishi said the Kakuzu and Hidan arc was suppose to be longer but SJ told him to cut it short to get back to Sasuke. And that Hidan was suppose to return in the War arc but he admitted that he literally got lazy with drawing and didn’t want to add more characters because it meant drawing them.

-Kishi has repeatedly said Sakura is the heroine even well into the War Arc, only to turn around and claim Hinata was always the heroine after the series ended. His editors and SJ also kept pushing for Hinata to be the heroine for along time.

-Kishi said Sasuke and Naruto were suppose to be holding hands in 698 but SJ told him he can’t do that.

-Sasuke wasn’t even suppose to exist and was added at the suggestion of his editors.

-Same thing for the Chunin Exams Arc, Kishi’s editors literally told him he had to do it instead of his original idea of slowly introducing many characters over several chapters/arcs and he regrets not being able to do what he wanted. He just wanted to show Naruto going on missions and learning about the outside world.

-Once again, even Orochimaru and his involvement in the Chunin Exams Arc was not his decision. His editors told him he needed a villain and that he had to make the Chunin Exams not finish. Shikamaru was also suppose to be the winner, instead of losing to Temari.

-Kishi admitted the idea of Kekkei Genkai, Sharingan and the like in the Land of Waves arc was just a “bluff” that he did not plan on getting in to at all.

-The Mifune/Hanzo fight was cut short because his editors hated it and told him he needed to end it very quickly and get back to the main cast, but Kishi really wanted to write it.

-Pretty much the entire Kobayashi interview is Kishi going “I didn’t know what I was doing the majority of the time and when I did know what I was doing my editors made me do something else because they didn’t like it.”

I am sure you guys can think of more.

Would it be so hard to believe that NH and SS were NOT Kishimoto's decision at all and was really the product of forced involvement by the SP or SJ teams? I would like to think so. Does this make Kishimoto blameless? No, but I really think there was more to it than is put on. The Naruto the Last movie was in production two years before the ending of Naruto which means it was planned to force NH together by the end. Now why would you need to do that if NH was going to be canon anyway? You wouldn't. It was a forced hand put on Kishimoto saying "You need to make NH canon because we made the movie about NH." This is why Kishimoto was so ambiguous.

This also feels like why a lot of the plot points seem out of place.

 

Yeah, no kidding, and why everything fell apart really.

[RulesofNature]

Which is kind of surprising. I personally liked IBO overall and thought it one of the best AU Gundam series' in a while. No masterpiece, but still enjoyable compared to the likes of Wing, SEED / SEED Destiny, 00 season 2, and the last 1/3 of AGE (I liked the first two AGE Arcs overall though), and also had a lot of fun with both seasons of Gundam Build Fighters.

 

00s2 actually has a good purpose. S1 was meant to deconstruct the morality put forth by SEED, the idea of using super powerful Gundams to force everyone to stop fighting. This morality is often called childish and naive by the JP fanbase and has even been examined in officially licensed games like Dynasty Warriors Gundam 2 or SRW Z. It shows how different the Cosmic era really was from what it was supposed to retell, then season two comes in to reconstruct it into something that did carry on the ideals of the original shows. One of the most telling things about this is how SEED has... the SEED factor and it's animation representing the characters "planting the seeds of tomorrow" or something whereas 00 ends with a giant space flower representing peace between humanity and the ELS.

 

There is a lot more to this, but I digress.

 

As for IBO, from the beginning there was a lot of backlash from parents who thought it was inappropriate for it's timeslot. For reference, the station it was on aired Yugioh right after the show. This caused the ratings to start dropping in season one and by the time of the second cour the show was becoming infamous for poor ratings. The Dort arc was also controversial with parents not because of the massacre, but because it showed an armed protest (complete with workers firing upon officers who tried to arrest them for having illegal weapons) in too positive of a light. Audiences also sympathized with Gaelio, Carta, Crank and Ein whereas by the end of the season Mikazuki was considered a monster by some while McGillis was hated (and I've heard people didn't like Kudelia too much either). S1 averaged the same as the Kio parts of AGE.

 

S2 suffered a broken base. Some people liked Julietta and Vidar because they were fighting McGillis and seemed like a cute couple. Others hate them because they work with Iok and Rustal and were fighting Tekkadan. Orga became disliked as people began to view him as unfit for leadership, to the point his death became a meme which ironically has made him more popular, and people hated McGillis even more when his plan was revealed. They called him an idiot manchild. The first time an episode in season one scored under 2% in the ratings, it was treated as a big deal by the JP fandom and one of the producers went on twitter to tell people it picks up towards the end of the season. Season 2 averaged something like 1.92%.

[LuckyChi7]

 
I think The War Arc was when Kishimoto really gave up. Now whether or not the changes were good or bad (mostly bad) you can see Kishimoto begin this "I give up, do whatever you want and I just draw" when his editors started to take control. I am making a small list here of things I know were changed due to editor influence and most happen after the Pein Arc.
 
-Kishi said the Kakuzu and Hidan arc was suppose to be longer but SJ told him to cut it short to get back to Sasuke. And that Hidan was suppose to return in the War arc but he admitted that he literally got lazy with drawing and didnt want to add more characters because it meant drawing them.
-Kishi has repeatedly said Sakura is the heroine even well into the War Arc, only to turn around and claim Hinata was always the heroine after the series ended. His editors and SJ also kept pushing for Hinata to be the heroine for along time.
-Kishi said Sasuke and Naruto were suppose to be holding hands in 698 but SJ told him he cant do that.
-Sasuke wasnt even suppose to exist and was added at the suggestion of his editors.
-Same thing for the Chunin Exams Arc, Kishis editors literally told him he had to do it instead of his original idea of slowly introducing many characters over several chapters/arcs and he regrets not being able to do what he wanted. He just wanted to show Naruto going on missions and learning about the outside world.
-Once again, even Orochimaru and his involvement in the Chunin Exams Arc was not his decision. His editors told him he needed a villain and that he had to make the Chunin Exams not finish. Shikamaru was also suppose to be the winner, instead of losing to Temari.
-Kishi admitted the idea of Kekkei Genkai, Sharingan and the like in the Land of Waves arc was just a bluff that he did not plan on getting in to at all.
-The Mifune/Hanzo fight was cut short because his editors hated it and told him he needed to end it very quickly and get back to the main cast, but Kishi really wanted to write it.
-Pretty much the entire Kobayashi interview is Kishi going I didnt know what I was doing the majority of the time and when I did know what I was doing my editors made me do something else because they didnt like it.

I am sure you guys can think of more.

Would it be so hard to believe that NH and SS were NOT Kishimoto's decision at all and was really the product of forced involvement by the SP or SJ teams? I would like to think so. Does this make Kishimoto blameless? No, but I really think there was more to it than is put on. The Naruto the Last movie was in production two years before the ending of Naruto which means it was planned to force NH together by the end. Now why would you need to do that if NH was going to be canon anyway? You wouldn't. It was a forced hand put on Kishimoto saying "You need to make NH canon because we made the movie about NH." This is why Kishimoto was so ambiguous.

This also feels like why a lot of the plot points seem out of place.

 
 
Couldn't have said it any better myself, being someone who is currently in the process of finishing a book from the last 3 years. I've learned alot about how the writing process goes, story direction, character progression, etc.  People fail to understand that oh it was all Kishimoto's idea it was the story he wanted to tell? and my thing is if it was the story he wanted to tell then why did there have to be alot of course alteration throughout the series.  There's a reason why people always debate about the quality of Naruto, and why  Part 1 was better than Part 2.  Alot of things were changed like why all the contradictory from the past interviews and what's currently being said. Yes, there is a thing where you as an author can tweak things that don't really change the overall course of the story, and there's nothing wrong with that. However, Naruto had more than just a few tweaks. It was a series of course corrections throughout the story. Truth be told, that's kinda why it's kinda tough for me to read new mangas because more than likely it never really goes the way the author wants it to, it's always the company like oh this isn't that good get back to the main cast? No that shouldn't even be the first thing on your mind, what you should do is see what it is the author has in store. I'm sorry, but aside from My Hero Academia which even right now I'm a little worried about, Shounen Jump is a company all about rankings. They don't give a damn if the story is a slow build that'll be beautiful, instead it's like We want you to do the story we want you to not what you do. 
 
Which I guess also kinda made me lower animosity towards Kishi, don't to say that I forgive him for what's happened because that's not the case. The scar that was left on me and many of us still stings to this day.  Hell, I'd even argue the kitten that happened with Naruto helps give me motivation to tell the story of my book on my own terms not the damn editors, not the damn company. Just straight up me! and that's what I'm gonna love by. 
 
Also keep in mind when Road to Ninja was coming out, Kishi did say "There were things I couldn't do in Naruto that I could do here in this movie." 
 
- We know Sakura's parents for whatever reason couldn't be shown in the manga probably because popularity and rankings of course.
-  I know people say that pairings are nothing, and sure there's some validity toward that. However, Naruto is a completely different case. That's why I think NaruSaku was suppose to be the full on endgame for the series given how that movie turned out. 
 
 
I mean look, if Hinata was the qoute on qoute heroine the whole time, why not have her journey to the Genjutsu world? It just doesn't make sense. 
 
That's why I much like everyone else believes editorial decisions is what happened to Naruto. 
 
Once again,  Kishi gets no ounce of forgiveness because he allowed the editors to walks all over the story of Naruto , Do I feel bad for him,yeah by like 0.03%  and that's it. 

Edited by LuckyChi7, 07 February 2018 - 07:38 PM.