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#47961 HalfDemonInuyasha

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Posted 02 February 2018 - 07:13 PM

 

Oh God... that chapter.... I was fuming when I read it.

I still say to this day that the whole "Curse of Hatred" Uchiha crap was one of THE WORST things EVER in the story, and that's saying something. Not only is it an extremely obvious attempt to absolve Sasuke and the Uchiha Clan of ANY AND ALL wrongdoing (even Obito and Madara) and thus not have to truly face the consequences of their actions and making Konoha out to be the sole "bad guy", but it also sends a VERY terrible message to (young) readers that basically says that as long as you're handsome, "cool", etc., you can get away with anything.


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#47962 Yyubie

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Posted 02 February 2018 - 08:15 PM

 

Oh God... that chapter.... I was fuming when I read it.

 

I still say to this day that the whole "Curse of Hatred" Uchiha crap was one of THE WORST things EVER in the story, and that's saying something. Not only is it an extremely obvious attempt to absolve Sasuke and the Uchiha Clan of ANY AND ALL wrongdoing (even Obito and Madara) and thus not have to truly face the consequences of their actions and making Konoha out to be the sole "bad guy", but it also sends a VERY terrible message to (young) readers that basically says that as long as you're handsome, "cool", etc., you can get away with anything.

That was also foreshadowing of what is about to happen ... the war arc , the coolest guy ever , chidori of heart , etc. Kishimoto basically prepare a very big and soft cushion for Sasuke and Obito and all the uchiha clan that jump out of a plane without parachute. He basically saying that there's gonna be a ton of s**t that Sasuke and Obito gonna do so i need to make an excuses ... a .. a damage control of some sort so they don't get a lot of hate so their genocide will be understandable.

 

 

See Xerxes throne is being carrier by hundreds of slaves and when he walk down stairs from his throne his slaves just form up and become an extension of his stairs ??? . THAT IS WHAT SASUKE AND UCHICA CLANS they are just like Xerxes , kishimoto golden boys , he do anything for them to make they looks like a god.


Edited by Yyubie, 02 February 2018 - 08:26 PM.

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#47963 Bryon_Konoha_Ninja

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Posted 02 February 2018 - 09:25 PM

 

That was also foreshadowing of what is about to happen ... the war arc , the coolest guy ever , chidori of heart , etc. Kishimoto basically prepare a very big and soft cushion for Sasuke and Obito and all the uchiha clan that jump out of a plane without parachute. He basically saying that there's gonna be a ton of s**t that Sasuke and Obito gonna do so i need to make an excuses ... a .. a damage control of some sort so they don't get a lot of hate so their genocide will be understandable.

 

 

See Xerxes throne is being carrier by hundreds of slaves and when he walk down stairs from his throne his slaves just form up and become an extension of his stairs ??? . THAT IS WHAT SASUKE AND UCHICA CLANS they are just like Xerxes , kishimoto golden boys , he do anything for them to make they looks like a god.

 

You sure nailed it on all those points, Yubie, which is really irksome for sure, and a lot of stuff I think coulda been handled better for the Uchiha, which is why I am trying to figure out the best approach to the massacre, Itachi's role in it, and stuff like that. Though I already know I ain't aiming in my Naruto fanfiction to make Madara sympathetic in any way; I plan to really make him the epitome of evil itself, and how he once had noble intentions, but once he got a taste of REAL power... well, it made him what he is infamous for.



#47964 Tsuki Hoshino

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Posted 02 February 2018 - 10:34 PM

 

Oh God... that chapter.... I was fuming when I read it.

The uchiha love so much, yet everything they do seems to be the exact opposite of what a loving person does :zaru: 


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#47965 VanitasDS76491

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Posted 03 February 2018 - 12:49 AM

That was also foreshadowing of what is about to happen ... the war arc , the coolest guy ever , chidori of heart , etc. Kishimoto basically prepare a very big and soft cushion for Sasuke and Obito and all the uchiha clan that jump out of a plane without parachute. He basically saying that there's gonna be a ton of s**t that Sasuke and Obito gonna do so i need to make an excuses ... a .. a damage control of some sort so they don't get a lot of hate so their genocide will be understandable.
 

 
See Xerxes throne is being carrier by hundreds of slaves and when he walk down stairs from his throne his slaves just form up and become an extension of his stairs ??? . THAT IS WHAT SASUKE AND UCHICA CLANS they are just like Xerxes , kishimoto golden boys , he do anything for them to make they looks like a god.

So would naruto be leonadis in this situation I buy that pity naruto would die in the end.

#47966 VanitasDS76491

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Posted 03 February 2018 - 12:51 AM

I still say to this day that the whole "Curse of Hatred" Uchiha crap was one of THE WORST things EVER in the story, and that's saying something. Not only is it an extremely obvious attempt to absolve Sasuke and the Uchiha Clan of ANY AND ALL wrongdoing (even Obito and Madara) and thus not have to truly face the consequences of their actions and making Konoha out to be the sole "bad guy", but it also sends a VERY terrible message to (young) readers that basically says that as long as you're handsome, "cool", etc., you can get away with anything.


Yep it's kittening stupid, plus the curse of hatred has so many holes in it it might as well be Swiss cheese.

#47967 Bryon_Konoha_Ninja

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Posted 03 February 2018 - 03:45 AM

Yep it's kittening stupid, plus the curse of hatred has so many holes in it it might as well be Swiss cheese.

 

No kidding. "They love so much they hate"? That makes NO SENSE.



#47968 DrK

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Posted 03 February 2018 - 07:52 AM

No kidding. "They love so much they hate"? That makes NO SENSE.

Especially since Kishi completely failed to apply this concept in regard to Sakura as he should have. Either via Sakura's love for Sasuke turning into hate because of his disgusting actions, or actually trying to justify Sasuke's actions as some kind of twisted love on his part. Instead they did nothing at all to justify anything.

Edited by DrK, 03 February 2018 - 07:54 AM.


#47969 Bryon_Konoha_Ninja

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Posted 03 February 2018 - 08:00 AM

Especially since Kishi completely failed to apply this concept in regard to Sakura as he should have. Either via Sakura's love for Sasuke turning into hate because of his disgusting actions, or actually trying to justify Sasuke's actions as some kind of twisted love on his part. Instead they did nothing at all to justify anything.

 

Just like how, even with the whole best intentions thing with Itachi being involved in the massacre, something like the so-called "Curse of Hatred" could have been done SO much better because of the fact that the concept can work, it just was poorly executed.



#47970 VanitasDS76491

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Posted 03 February 2018 - 11:56 AM

No kidding. "They love so much they hate"? That makes NO SENSE.

Exactly it contradictions it self. Seems like he's use the love thing from star wars only having it make less sense. It's the same is the kill your best friend thing. To this day that makes no sense either cause it invalidate being friends if your going to kill cause no friend would do that unless it's like how itachi did it, if it was a friend giving their lives for them kind of like how ace give his for Luffy then I'd buy it.
  

Just like how, even with the whole best intentions thing with Itachi being involved in the massacre, something like the so-called "Curse of Hatred" could have been done SO much better because of the fact that the concept can work, it just was poorly executed.

That was kishi lane attempt to be like metal gear solid 3 with the boss. Seriously play the truth about the boss and itachi back to back and it's the same only the boss was better handle.

#47971 DrK

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Posted 03 February 2018 - 06:19 PM

That was kishi lane attempt to be like metal gear solid 3 with the boss. Seriously play the truth about the boss and itachi back to back and it's the same only the boss was better handle.

You're right. There are similarities with the scene of Itachi breaking Sasuke's arm and the scene with the Boss beating up Snake, too. In terms of the way the Boss and Itachi both act. Snake took it much better than Sasuke did, though.



#47972 Phantom_999

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Posted 03 February 2018 - 07:32 PM



 

No kidding. "They love so much they hate"? That makes NO SENSE.

 

What also DOES NOT MAKE SENSE was that the Uchiha's curse of "loving too much" was only a thing when it was convenient for the plot!!! :zaru: Itachi did not go MAD with hatred when he committed "mass familicide" did he?


Edited by Phantom_999, 01 March 2018 - 12:38 AM.

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#47973 Bryon_Konoha_Ninja

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 01:13 AM

What also DOES NOT MAKE SENSE was that the Uchiha's curse of "loving too much" was only a thing when it was convenient for the plot!!! :zaru: Itachi did not go MAD with hatred when he committed familicide did he?

 

Exactly, Phantom, it just felt like it was basically an excuse as we've all said regarding the Curse of Hatred, which is what pisses me off more about it. I can get Itachi being willing to do patricide, but at the same time, it also is just like "WHAT THE HELL!?" given his hating violence, and how even that at least is hinted at a small bit with his wishing Kurenai and Asuma to leave when they ran into him and Kisame, even if that also can be chalked up to their job of tracking Naruto, plus how he spoke about the village prior to their entering it shows perhaps the idea that Itachi wasn't as terrible as he was made out to be was planned ahead, but it also is still pretty pathetic to just use something as an excuse for guys who did terrible things to help themselves or to change what they thought was broken, like Sasuke, Obito, and Madara. Though between how Sasuke got "Redeemed" and what Obito did, it felt way more satisfying to see Obito realize how badly things went, even if Naruto calling Obito awesome, in spite of the **** he did to him like killing his parents and Neji and such.



#47974 jak123

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 04:49 AM

 

Exactly, Phantom, it just felt like it was basically an excuse as we've all said regarding the Curse of Hatred, which is what pisses me off more about it. I can get Itachi being willing to do patricide, but at the same time, it also is just like "WHAT THE HELL!?" given his hating violence, and how even that at least is hinted at a small bit with his wishing Kurenai and Asuma to leave when they ran into him and Kisame, even if that also can be chalked up to their job of tracking Naruto, plus how he spoke about the village prior to their entering it shows perhaps the idea that Itachi wasn't as terrible as he was made out to be was planned ahead, but it also is still pretty pathetic to just use something as an excuse for guys who did terrible things to help themselves or to change what they thought was broken, like Sasuke, Obito, and Madara. Though between how Sasuke got "Redeemed" and what Obito did, it felt way more satisfying to see Obito realize how badly things went, even if Naruto calling Obito awesome, in spite of the **** he did to him like killing his parents and Neji and such.

Yeah, Obito was actually redeemed. Sasuke wasn't.



#47975 Bryon_Konoha_Ninja

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 06:35 AM

Yeah, Obito was actually redeemed. Sasuke wasn't.

 

Exactly, which is why it's more satisfying to see Obito redeem himself.



#47976 HalfDemonInuyasha

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 10:21 AM

My main problem is that, similar to Nagato, it's not that Obito was redeemed in general, but rather how freaking fast he was redeemed.

Nagato and Obito had spent 10-20 years or so completely entrenched in their extreme beliefs and were willing to do unspeakable things without question or remorse in order to achieve their goals. To be able to do things like help murder an entire clan, murder a man and all of his family and relatives, attack a village and nearly destroy its populace, and so on shows just how far gone they were and yet a Talk no Jutsu or two and it's like nothing they ever did over all of that time mattered. What's the point of showing them do, or showing to have done, such things if they could be so freaking easy to be flipped back? And even after flipping back, it's little more than, "Okay, I'll believe in Boruto's dad" and that's it. You never see them realize the horrible atrocities they (helped) commit and having to come to grips with it, once again absolving any sense of responsibility or consequences.

Even Sasuke hadn't been made to do anything nearly as far (most larger scaled attempts he made ended in failure, like the Kage Summit, and Danzo was just one guy) and yet we're expected to believe him to be one of the most difficult people to be "redeemed", one of the most far "gone" people...how? His goal of vengeance is really no different than Nagato and Obito's. Nagato and Obito may have claimed to want "true peace", but underneath it all, it all started with a thirst for vengeance against those who wronged them. The difference is that at least Nagato and Obito tried to focus their anger, hatred, and vengeance into a different and bigger goal (as misguided as it was) whereas Sasuke just threw his around with no real goal in mind. That's what made Nagato and Obito more "interesting antagonists, at least very early on, whereas Sasuke was completely one-dimensional.


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#47977 VanitasDS76491

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 12:15 PM

You're right. There are similarities with the scene of Itachi breaking Sasuke's arm and the scene with the Boss beating up Snake, too. In terms of the way the Boss and Itachi both act. Snake took it much better than Sasuke did, though.

  
Yes thank you cause I have to admit they are to similar. Only difference we saw snake turmoil on having to kill his mentor and the boss was interesting. Sasuke and itachi aren't interesting with sasuke just whinging about itachi.

Exactly, Phantom, it just felt like it was basically an excuse as we've all said regarding the Curse of Hatred, which is what pisses me off more about it. I can get Itachi being willing to do patricide, but at the same time, it also is just like "WHAT THE HELL!?" given his hating violence, and how even that at least is hinted at a small bit with his wishing Kurenai and Asuma to leave when they ran into him and Kisame, even if that also can be chalked up to their job of tracking Naruto, plus how he spoke about the village prior to their entering it shows perhaps the idea that Itachi wasn't as terrible as he was made out to be was planned ahead, but it also is still pretty pathetic to just use something as an excuse for guys who did terrible things to help themselves or to change what they thought was broken, like Sasuke, Obito, and Madara. Though between how Sasuke got "Redeemed" and what Obito did, it felt way more satisfying to see Obito realize how badly things went, even if Naruto calling Obito awesome, in spite of the **** he did to him like killing his parents and Neji and such.

This is bad writing if ever I've seen it. No obito was redeemed through bull kitten. There have better redemption arc like I keep saying power rangers and kingdom hearts with riku.
  

Yeah, Obito was actually redeemed. Sasuke wasn't.

 
No that genocide maniac is still scum, because one deed doesn't redeem everything he did and the people he killed.
 

Exactly, which is why it's more satisfying to see Obito redeem himself.

Keep saying he's still scum no matter what.

#47978 Gravenimage

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 01:17 PM

 

Exactly, Phantom, it just felt like it was basically an excuse as we've all said regarding the Curse of Hatred, which is what pisses me off more about it. I can get Itachi being willing to do patricide, but at the same time, it also is just like "WHAT THE HELL!?" given his hating violence, and how even that at least is hinted at a small bit with his wishing Kurenai and Asuma to leave when they ran into him and Kisame, even if that also can be chalked up to their job of tracking Naruto, plus how he spoke about the village prior to their entering it shows perhaps the idea that Itachi wasn't as terrible as he was made out to be was planned ahead, but it also is still pretty pathetic to just use something as an excuse for guys who did terrible things to help themselves or to change what they thought was broken, like Sasuke, Obito, and Madara. Though between how Sasuke got "Redeemed" and what Obito did, it felt way more satisfying to see Obito realize how badly things went, even if Naruto calling Obito awesome, in spite of the **** he did to him like killing his parents and Neji and such.

 

Bold that's exactly what it was. Nothing but an excuse to justify everything bad Sasuke, Obito and Madara did. This is probably the biggest BS in the manga as the result of poor writing. So in the end those three aren't really bad they're just very good people that loves SO MUCH that they will kill anyone that gets in their way. See how kitten up that sounds? Sasuke and Obito were the only ones to get redeemed because it was convenient for the plot. I still don't know why. Sasuke, dead would have been a whole lot better for the plot. I still say Vader Redemption would have worked way better than him becoming some kind of Black OP ninja. 


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#47979 Kagomaru

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 02:23 PM

 

Exactly, which is why it's more satisfying to see Obito redeem himself.

I personally wouldn't say that it was "satisfying" but I can respect that Obito at least acknowledges the atrocities he committed and tried to make amends at the cost of his life.  Does that absolve him from his crimes? No. But he owns up to it.   Sasuke's "redemption" is as forced and hackneyed as they come because he does not have a profound revelation about himself over his actions, motivations or his beliefs. Instead, he's just beat down until he just gives up and offers a half-assed apology to Sakura; he does nothing to earn his "redemption", it's given to him on a silver platter by Naruto, Kakashi and Sakura. And his self-imposed mission is solely of his own volition and it benefits no one but himself, leaving his wife in debt and his child fatherless. Even BD told him spend more time with his family (and given who this is coming from, that's says something).  


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#47980 jak123

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 04:35 PM

I personally wouldn't say that it was "satisfying" but I can respect that Obito at least acknowledges the atrocities he committed and tried to make amends at the cost of his life.  Does that absolve him from his crimes? No. But he owns up to it.   Sasuke's "redemption" is as forced and hackneyed as they come because he does not have a profound revelation about himself over his actions, motivations or his beliefs. Instead, he's just beat down until he just gives up and offers a half-assed apology to Sakura; he does nothing to earn his "redemption", it's given to him on a silver platter by Naruto, Kakashi and Sakura. And his self-imposed mission is solely of his own volition and it benefits no one but himself, leaving his wife in debt and his child fatherless. Even BD told him spend more time with his family (and given who this is coming from, that's says something).  

And the fact that he's just forgiven because "friendship". Sasuke should have either died or been a rogue ninja part of Orochimaru's group and married to Karin. 

 

No that genocide maniac is still scum, because one deed doesn't redeem everything he did and the people he killed.

I meant in terms of the reader. 






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