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#1 Whirlpool-Maelstrom

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Posted 06 April 2010 - 01:30 PM

Now this comes to mind after reading something in wikipedia about Rahxephon.

QUOTE
One of Evangelion's producers was similarly frustrated with anime as a whole, stating that much of what was released in the "post-Eva era" was "mass-produced junk".


Now reading this makes me ask myself. "Is anime loosing quality?", While the above Quote regards mostly to Mecha anime, I think we could apply it here to include all genres.

Now my opinion is that Anime is losing some of its quality, take for example this springs anime lineup, I only got interested in two and one of them is actually more in the curiosity side that anything else(If you want to know it's Iron Man I'm talking about, the other show is Black Rock Shooter). Nowadays I feel that Anime is more Quality graphics than a good compelling story and while stunning visuals are always good there's more things that make a show, I know it's hard for a revolutionary Anime to come by these days and that the Anime business is pretty tough with all the competition, but so much of the anime today just feels mainstreamed and while these series are enjoyable to watch they are not the thing that will live on. Heck look at the series we watch nowadays (or don't watch) Naruto for example, ninjas, a pretty popular concept in Anime, but do you really think after it is over many more people will think about it, two years in my opinion after the end of the Anime, probably more after the end of the manga, two years it's all I give for it be popular after, I might be wrong but that's my opinion, some of you might be shocked with what I say, don't get me wrong Naruto is a great series but it's not timeless like Evangelion (I just can't shut up about Eva today XD) for example. Finally My Opinion as stated above is that Anime is losing some quality.

What about you guys? What's yor opinion about his.

#2 Mik3

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Posted 07 April 2010 - 12:51 AM

Well, yea but the same can be said of any media.
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#3 BlackLightning

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Posted 07 April 2010 - 01:11 AM

It depends on the POV of each person really, problem is that after so many things out there, coming out with something absolutely original is pretty much impossible. Now, there are quite a few holes in the person that gave his view above:

1. Made a comparison between Eva and Rahxephon which is as similar as Apple and Orange AKA nothing similar about em other than they both comes from a tree.
2. The era have changed and with that, the standard. Eva was impressive in its era with pretty much Gundam as the only competitor, then again they goes for different market (Ok, at that time, no 12 years old can get their hands on Eva, its rated 15+ only due to the blood, gore and brutality as well as its complication with religion while Gundam target 12 yo and above and doesn't show that much blood or even violence as most of the time the enemies dies with just 1 shot/slash)
3. Even if you compare say... Gundam Wing with Gundam Seed, they are totally different already even if they comes from the same line of series. There's simply not enough standard of comparison between them


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#4 Whirlpool-Maelstrom

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Posted 07 April 2010 - 11:50 AM

QUOTE (BlackLightning @ Apr 7 2010, 02:11 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It depends on the POV of each person really, problem is that after so many things out there, coming out with something absolutely original is pretty much impossible.


The competition can get pretty rough. You can't just come with something new easily."Oh have you good visuals, sorry but the story sucks" or "Oh what a great story, but what those visuals!". The main problem is combining a good plot with good quality visuals and the competition is just so big you can't actually do something like you actually would like too most of the time, the possibility of a show not getting audience can put off many people.

Edited by Whirlpool-Maelstrom, 07 April 2010 - 11:58 AM.


#5 True

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Posted 07 April 2010 - 04:17 PM

Nowadays it seems that the anime industry is sinking and isn't nearing its massive popularity of the late '90s / early '00s. A significant number of shows are pandering to a given demographic of otaku who are more interested in the sexulazation of characters since they are the ones who will buy the most merchandise. The "MOE" phenomenon has really taken a negative impact (for me at least) in that the most of the bigger studios (like kittening KyoAni; WHERE IS MY FMP SEASON 3?!) who devote most of their production to these types of cutesy/sexy shows. Granted you'll still find a diamond in the rough series, but this is a growing trend that may turn away many people while clinging to the market they've already pandered towards.

Also it's the day and age we live in where we have so much access to the resources we want with the internet. There is tons of variety and hundreds of shows at our disposal that we can get access to just a few hours after they air. This of course is different from the earlier years in which people couldn't as easily find out about the types of anime they want and just had to wait for them to air on TV or import themselves (not an easy task).

Just look at the "golden age" of anime in the early 00's and how many series were available.
Anime from 2001 --Click here to view--

Just how many did you think the average viewer watched? Not many will remember the other series even though proclaiming nostalgia to the "good ol' days" of when anime was at its prime. Really it is just that we live in the age where we have access to so much information with such great ease that we garner a bigger exposure to the things we enjoy. When you have a lot of something, you tend to not care for it, but when you have such rarity and limited access to it, then you tend to cherish it more.

#6 No WhereMan

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Posted 07 April 2010 - 08:40 PM

Actually this was funny because I noticed this downward spiral a while ago. A lot of series for me seem to run together sometimes. That's why I stopped watching anime altogether. I barely gave Naruto any real attention because it drew back some feelings from when I was watching (eng subbed) DBZ. And even that was touch and go. But a lot of the wonder that I had, when I saw those series that pushed the edge of your sensibilities and made it clear why, it wasn't permitted in an American studio. It gone.

Now, I just anime like another genre of entertainment. I realize I won't get another Eva or Akira, but I can find other things to enjoy.

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#7 Black Rose

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Posted 07 April 2010 - 08:46 PM

Well, I partly agree with the thread-starter. Naruto is getting from bad to worse.... But FMA is getting improved... And this happens with most anime shows.. Some of 'em are getting better, but most of the are getting worse...Unfortunately. -.-

 

 


#8 No WhereMan

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Posted 07 April 2010 - 09:25 PM

It's not even that though. Great you might have one show that decides to raise it standards a bit, but the OP is talking about Anime as a whole. And it's part of the growing popularity of it. When you get more fans of any phenomenon, the quality of it starts to decrease because you focus on things such as profits and merchandising oppose to the actual quality.

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#9 Black Rose

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Posted 07 April 2010 - 09:35 PM

QUOTE (No WhereMan @ Apr 8 2010, 12:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It's not even that though. Great you might have one show that decides to raise it standards a bit, but the OP is talking about Anime as a whole. And it's part of the growing popularity of it. When you get more fans of any phenomenon, the quality of it starts to decrease because you focus on things such as profits and merchandising oppose to the actual quality.


Well, you are right... Everything for that "f***ing" profit!! Even Anime was affected by the pursuit of financial benefits... Anime's ended up being spoiled... sad.gif

 

 


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Posted 07 April 2010 - 09:56 PM

It's a matter of opinion really. But a big part of why you think the quality of ANY genre of entertainment is decreasing is because you're getting older; you've seen so many things when you were younger, as you grow up not only do you notice that you begin to be seeing many of the same things from before, but you don't have as much time as you used to and your standards may have changed. Then there are the genres you are just not that into which have periods of popularity. There's also nostalgia; you want to experience the exact same things you did back then. Just because anime today does not have the same pull on you as it did when you got into it does not mean the current anime of today will not have a similar effect on today's generation. Heck, I'm sure the generation of Otaku before you thought the quality of anime was on a downward spiral from the mid-80's.

Another factor is the mere quantity of whatever is out there: the more things an entertainment company makes, the number of products you will not like will inevitably increase.

For me, I've reached a point in my life where I feel like I've pretty much seen everything I need to. Here and there, something may spur my curiosity, but overall I think there's nothing out there I need to see immediately. Even so, there will always be that one jewel out there that grabs your attention. I think Western Animation overall has been going into a decline, but every now and then there's that one series that shows quality work (Avatar and Spectacular Spiderman)

#11 Lid

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Posted 07 April 2010 - 10:19 PM

I've noticed a bit of decline as well, mostly since 2007. That was when Death Note, Claymore, Gurren laggan, and Romeo X Juliet were coming out. Those were the last programs I really followed, since then I haven't really found any good series to keep my interest. Now a days I usually just read manga, I usually find a lot more interesting stories and have actually found quite a few that deserve to have an anime.

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#12 Whirlpool-Maelstrom

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Posted 08 April 2010 - 01:32 AM

QUOTE (The Notorious L.I.D. @ Apr 7 2010, 11:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I've noticed a bit of decline as well, mostly since 2007. That was when Death Note, Claymore, Gurren laggan, and Romeo X Juliet were coming out. Those were the last programs I really followed, since then I haven't really found any good series to keep my interest. Now a days I usually just read manga, I usually find a lot more interesting stories and have actually found quite a few that deserve to have an anime.


Have to agree with you about manga, it's just much more interesting than anime nowadays and like you said there a few ones that would make a good anime, but then again all you see nowadays is mostly mainstream anime, now I'm not saying that every mainstream anime is bad, they need to have something good to actually interest people to check it out, it's just the way they are the done, if its based from a manga then god get ready for the fillers cuz they'll use them till your your patience is worn out and for someone like me who has the equivalent patience of a mosquito, some times... well it's enough to put me off from an anime. I don't know about you guys but I like something that actually develops not to fast but also not to slow.

Now one thing I forgot mention is that not everything is going down the drain, we have some stuff coming out that's actually good, Rebuild of Evangelion, Dragon Ball Kai (though I don't have the incentive to watch nor the interest), Full Metal Alchemist Brotherhood, lots of remakes, spin-offs and yada yada, seems like the way to go for now is bring the "old but goodies" from the grave, though how well this will work I don't know.

#13 No WhereMan

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Posted 08 April 2010 - 01:41 AM

Actually, I'm tired of this remake craze that's sweeping everyone. It just seems like an easy out to actually coming up with a genuinely original idea. I mean when you remake something, you already have a dedicated audience there from the original fanbase. So regardless of however you decide to make whatever changes those people will be interested in seeing the work because it has something to do with the established fandom. Any additional people that join for the first time is an added bonus.

It's much harder, (and I think more rewarding) to come up with something that's actually fresh.

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#14 JoHamSandwich

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Posted 08 April 2010 - 01:41 AM

QUOTE (True @ Apr 7 2010, 09:17 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Just look at the "golden age" of anime in the early 00's and how many series were available.
Anime from 2001 --Click here to view--



I saw only 2 of the animes listed there LOL. I'm sure there's that animes that I've watched were from late 90s and early 2000s...

and I agree with Notorious, I think 2007 was when it started declining... I think Lucky Star started the moe movement XD

Edited by JoHamSandwich, 08 April 2010 - 01:42 AM.


#15 socermania2

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Posted 08 April 2010 - 01:51 AM

This is a natural occuring phenomenon.

As people get older, they begin to believe things now are worse than what they were before.

Let's look at Pokemon, a game I'm sure most of you have played.

People rave about how extremely awesome the first 251 were, and that everything after that was bland and uninspired.

I didn't go with the flow, because I believe all Generations had equal amounts of cool and uninspired Pokes.

So I did some research with a day care group I help out at, asking the kids there what they believed, because they've seen all 493 at once. They are probably less biased then someone older.

My hypothesis was correct. Pokemon such as Voltorb and Grimer were found bland by the kids, but Pokemon such as Metagross and Garchomp were found cool.

Meaning of All This: Nostalgia plays a big part in this. Today's anime may not seem that good to you because when you were a kid everything was fantastic cause you were less impressionable. The only way to answer this question is:

a) Get a kid and make them watch Evangelion and Full Metal Alchemist, and see how they compare, or
b) Get a completely neutral person to watch these shows from different time periods.
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#16 Codus N

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Posted 08 April 2010 - 06:50 AM

QUOTE (The Notorious L.I.D. @ Apr 8 2010, 05:19 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I've noticed a bit of decline as well, mostly since 2007. That was when Death Note, Claymore, Gurren laggan, and Romeo X Juliet were coming out. Those were the last programs I really followed, since then I haven't really found any good series to keep my interest. Now a days I usually just read manga, I usually find a lot more interesting stories and have actually found quite a few that deserve to have an anime.


Yes!! for example Double Arts. (damn, I'm still in agony and denial about it) this could also be applied to manga though. It's not as bad as Anime, but there is somewhat a lacking of quality. So far, from what I've read in Jump, not too many seems to be a good enough hooker for me. The fact that Double Arts was cancelled was probably because of Generation Z of Japan. Generation Y probably didn't have enough manpower to beat Generation Z so that's why it was cancelled. Besides, a part of the Y Generation are in college or is working right now which means they didn't feel that they had the time to make a good judgment on the mangas (what I mean is, judging the mangas AND filling out the questionnaires carefully) There's also the Godawful Medaka box. Geez, I can't believe to this day the Generation Z actually liked it. It was completely brainless and practically destroyed the moral lessons that was really good in the earlier chapters.

QUOTE (socermania2 @ Apr 8 2010, 08:51 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
This is a natural occuring phenomenon.

As people get older, they begin to believe things now are worse than what they were before.

Let's look at Pokemon, a game I'm sure most of you have played.

People rave about how extremely awesome the first 251 were, and that everything after that was bland and uninspired.

I didn't go with the flow, because I believe all Generations had equal amounts of cool and uninspired Pokes.

So I did some research with a day care group I help out at, asking the kids there what they believed, because they've seen all 493 at once. They are probably less biased then someone older.

My hypothesis was correct. Pokemon such as Voltorb and Grimer were found bland by the kids, but Pokemon such as Metagross and Garchomp were found cool.

Meaning of All This: Nostalgia plays a big part in this. Today's anime may not seem that good to you because when you were a kid everything was fantastic cause you were less impressionable. The only way to answer this question is:

a) Get a kid and make them watch Evangelion and Full Metal Alchemist, and see how they compare, or
b) Get a completely neutral person to watch these shows from different time periods.


Wow, I really have to agree with you on that.

Edited by Newkerz, 08 April 2010 - 06:54 AM.

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#17 Lid

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Posted 08 April 2010 - 08:21 AM

Another sad thing to see is a bunch of good manhwa I've read that will probably never get an anime like Aflame Inferno or Unbalance x Unbalance.

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Posted 08 April 2010 - 11:17 AM

QUOTE
It's a matter of opinion really. But a big part of why you think the quality of ANY genre of entertainment is decreasing is because you're getting older; you've seen so many things when you were younger, as you grow up not only do you notice that you begin to be seeing many of the same things from before, but you don't have as much time as you used to and your standards may have changed. Then there are the genres you are just not that into which have periods of popularity. There's also nostalgia; you want to experience the exact same things you did back then. Just because anime today does not have the same pull on you as it did when you got into it does not mean the current anime of today will not have a similar effect on today's generation. Heck, I'm sure the generation of Otaku before you thought the quality of anime was on a downward spiral from the mid-80's.

Another factor is the mere quantity of whatever is out there: the more things an entertainment company makes, the number of products you will not like will inevitably increase.

For me, I've reached a point in my life where I feel like I've pretty much seen everything I need to. Here and there, something may spur my curiosity, but overall I think there's nothing out there I need to see immediately. Even so, there will always be that one jewel out there that grabs your attention. I think Western Animation overall has been going into a decline, but every now and then there's that one series that shows quality work (Avatar and Spectacular Spiderman)


Probably you are the person has most accurately summarized my thoughts on the matter. It is a mixture of nostalgia and experience. You cherish the first shows you watched, when you were young and inexperienced, and all seemed new, and you weren't so demanding or fixated on flaws. Moreover, there is nothing new under the Sun. Hence, the more shows you watch, the less original and surprising you will find them.

For example, I have been watching anime since the early eighties. Therefore:

It is hard a show gets me interested.

It is harder a show gets me impressed or surprised.

And it is even harder a show gets me passionate about it (and one of the reasons is no longer I allow my passion overwhelm me. Getting older tends to teach you which are your priorities and what things are worth to get thrilled about. Comic-books aren't one of them. That is because I don't listen to fanboyish rants about the goodness or badness of Naruto or Bleach. Usually I think they are taking everything TOO seriously).

Allow me elaborate one example: the topic starter has talked about like Evangelion is timeless and current series are inferior. Not only I think that show is a joke compared with the genre classics (Mazinger-Z, Grendizer, Gundam, Macross, Patlabor) but also compared with less known giant or real robot shows (Voltes-V, Gaiking, Tosho Daimos). In fact, precisely because I have watched a lot of robot shows, Evangelion looks to me like a completely unoriginal blend of thousand Humongous Mecha tropes I have watched thousand times before (Don't you believe me? Watch Ideon. Mainly watch the ending. And tell ME it doesn't remind you of End of Evangelion. Actually, if I am not mistaken, Hideaki Anno has outright stated it was one of his influences) with some pieces of philosophy and religious symbology haphazardly tossed in, in order to pretend its plot is complex and deep.

(And before someone asks me... Yes, I watched Evangelion. I watched it WHOLE when I was around seventeen. And I was way more patient with it than my friends, who started declaring it was garbage before chapter 20).

Sometimes nostalgia and bias cloud and befuddle memory and judgement. It is very tiresome -and even irksome- listening to other Saint Seiya fans dissing Naruto. I like Saint Seiya. I LOVE Saint Seiya more than I could ever love Naruto. But come on! Do you seriously you think its plot was perfect and its animation flawless? Or Dragon Ball fans thinking Dragon Ball story is better than Naruto’s (not matter that they always call it Dragon Ball Z).

(IMO, Saint Seiya and Dragon Ball's hatred towards Naruto stems at least partially from resentment: they hate shows they loved no longer are popular and resent the newest hot stuff: Naruto, Bleach, One Piece, Death Note...)

And besides, when you remember old series, your mind remembers the good ones and forgets the bad ones! So you are comparing the best series of an entire age with all series of another period of time (which includes the whole of the crap).

But sometimes nostalgia has nothing to do with it. Sometimes you read/watch something and try analyzing it so objectively like possible (of course we are talking about something based on taste, bias and opinion, so full objectivity is impossible)… and you still think the older stuff was better. Quality isn’t determined by age. A show created in 1973 may be better than one created in 2003; right like one created in 2003 may be better than one created in 1973. It works both ways (of course!).

One example: some people love telling people loves the Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time game is deluded by nostalgia (“many years have passed and they don’t remember its flaws!”; “it was the first game they played and they are biased!”). I played Ocarina Of Time two years ago, for first time, after Twilight Princess (the newest instalment) and I don’t care for reviews (so they don’t influence me), and I STILL think Ocarina of Time is better.

I have read nearly all of Rumiko Takahashi’s main series. I think Ranma is way better than Inu-Yasha. And I think Urusei Yatsura (her first long work) is way better than Ranma. Nostalgia? No, because I read Urusei Yatsura way after Inu-Yasha and after Ranma. Moreover, I think Maison Ikkoku (which she drew between Urusei Yatsura and Ranma) is her better work. Why? Because the plot is better: it doesn’t drag out, the characters actually evolve and change, and the ending closes the series perfectly well. Still I will admit the art is inferior.

Oh, and there is another added factor: tastes and trends change and shift. And anime shows change according them. Storytelling, tropes… all of them change. You love the kind of storytelling and character-making you are more familiarized with.

I am familiarized with seventies and eighties shows and comics. I love that kind of heroes and stories: Saint Seiya, Fist of North Star, Kimagure Orange Road, Ronin Warriors, Karasu Tengu Kabuto, Ranma ½…

I have tried getting on Rosario+Vampire, Busou Renkin, Soul Eater… and I was unable. I don’t like that style. I don’t like that kind of characters. And the stories are average at beast.

Still I have found new series I like: Naruto, Bleach, Claymore… But it is getting tougher and tougher find new series I like.

So in a nutshell: it is not anime’s quality is decreasing. There are good and bad shows, right like always. It is also you are getting older. Nothing surprises you or thrills you anymore. You are less forgiving or tolerant towards flaws and plotholes. And the shows are trying luring newer customers like other kind of stories.

It is a natural and inevitable process and everyone must acknowledge it and accept it. Enjoy your favourite series because they are and accept most of the newer shows don’t appeal to you.

Not long ago I watched an old Saint Seiya episode. I utterly LOVED it when I was eleven. But when I watched it again, I couldn’t avoid notice the crude animation and special effects. It was slightly diminishing my enjoyment so I forced myself to ignore it and enjoying the events were unfolding (the fight was still epic).

Oh, and I don’t think Naruto will be forgotten two years after it ending. I was doubtful about it before, but now I think it will endure. The series has gone on for too long, and it has been too successful to be forgotten so easily.

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#19 Whirlpool-Maelstrom

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Posted 08 April 2010 - 12:42 PM

I agree with you guys as I get older less and less will suprise me, I'll compare this to the violence you sometimes see on TV, it doesn't faze me anymore, "someone got stabbed!", my response will be "oh really? where?", I won't be fazed by this.

QUOTE
Allow me elaborate one example: the topic starter has talked about like Evangelion is timeless and current series are inferior. Not only I think that show is a joke compared with the genre classics (Mazinger-Z, Grendizer, Gundam, Macross, Patlabor) but also compared with less known giant or real robot shows (Voltes-V, Gaiking, Tosho Daimos). In fact, precisely because I have watched a lot of robot shows, Evangelion looks to me like a completely unoriginal blend of thousand Humongous Mecha tropes I have watched thousand times before (Don't you believe me? Watch Ideon. Mainly watch the ending. And tell ME it doesn't remind you of End of Evangelion. Actually, if I am not mistaken, Hideaki Anno has outright stated it was one of his influences) with some pieces of philosophy and religious symbology haphazardly tossed in, in order to pretend its plot is complex and deep.


Now this is a matter of opinion mostly, then again having watched anime for as long as you have, I think it's pretty understandable you don't like Eva, Take into account that I'm also younger than you, I couldn't have watched most... no correct that any of the series you mentioned and If I where to watch them now I wouldn't be able to watch them, mostly because of the visuals.

In the end like you guys are saying it's a matter about age. Evangelion really catched my eye when I was younger, you where seventeen and I was what seven or eight. For almost ten years I could remember it even only having watched it only one time and not completely. Now that's one of the reasons that I consider it timeless, that and the filling of entire comment sections even today. And like you pointed I do consider the stuff nowadays inferior, but... even if it is inferior in my eyes a show can catch my eye, just because I said a show is superior than another there's nothing that's stopping me from watching it.

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Sometimes nostalgia and bias cloud and befuddle memory and judgement. It is very tiresome -and even irksome- listening to other Saint Seiya fans dissing Naruto. I like Saint Seiya. I LOVE Saint Seiya more than I could ever love Naruto. But come on! Do you seriously you think its plot was perfect and its animation flawless? Or Dragon Ball fans thinking Dragon Ball story is better than Naruto’s (not matter that they always call it Dragon Ball Z).


Nothing is flawless, accepting the good and the bad is what makes a true fan in my opinion. But sometime certain flaws can really put someone off.

QUOTE
One example: some people love telling people loves the Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time game is deluded by nostalgia (“many years have passed and they don’t remember its flaws!”; “it was the first game they played and they are biased!”). I played Ocarina Of Time two years ago, for first time, after Twilight Princess (the newest instalment) and I don’t care for reviews (so they don’t influence me), and I STILL think Ocarina of Time is better.


Just like my opinion in Evangelion. And I too think Ocarina of Time is better, it was a very memorable game.

It just get tougher to find things you like, things don't faze you anymore, the reusing of old formulas is just too noticeable for you to enjoy the show to enjoy. So I'll give you guys your point it's a matter of age mostly.

Then again I asked for your opinion on this matter and that's what I got.

Edited by Whirlpool-Maelstrom, 08 April 2010 - 12:45 PM.


#20 No WhereMan

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Posted 08 April 2010 - 03:11 PM

I'm sorry, I've seen Mazinger-Z, Grendizer, several of the Gundam series, Macross, Patlabor and I've also seen Eva.

I don't know how you can compare those shows to Evangelion. I mean, I've had long in depth conversation about some of the imagery and concepts, not to mention some of the psychological depths of the characters, that existed in Evangelion. I haven't had any sort conversations those except saying, "Oh that was cool." "Or that pilot was the kitten!" about those other shows.

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