68 replies to this topic

[rocci]

@Narufan85:
 
I'm actually freaked at how many guys in real life and fiction that I know of fit that little comic on "Nice" Guy trope.  What's even freakier is that some of these "nice" guy characters are glorified and gain too much sympathy when all they really do is b***h and whine about not having the girl notice them and go for other men when "HE DOES EVERYTHING FOR HER".
 
Naruto was never this type of Nice Guy by the end Part 1. He never complained, never expected anything, always supported the girl he loved's happiness above all this. I tend to admire these types of nice guys more. I can still like characters with minor "nice" guy tendencies, but the bitterness and constant whining just isn't as appealing as the more enduring types.
 
Of course, I'm talking about the ORIGINAL Naruto. Not the Naruto that was too busy sulking to bother saving the girl he loved since she apparently "rejected" him. 

One of the reason why guy like girl like Hinata.

I think one of the reason why people think naruto could move on, because he's a nice guy.

Edited by rocci, 15 July 2015 - 12:00 AM.

[Nar123]

At the end of Gaiden, we found out that Karin got over her feelings towards Sasuke so he could be with Sakura.  This kind of contrasts with her creepy obsession with him when she was part of Team Taka.  Now that she actually showed some maturity and moved on, have you gained some respect for her?

 

She didn't move on, based on Suigetsu's last question it's obvious she still has something for Sasuke, I guess Kishimoto didn't want to turn her into a terrible woman (on his own twisted mindset)  by making her give up on her first crush and all 

 

And about Karin's character? Well, the way I see gaiden didn't change anything she still is a character with lots of potential which were never explored due to author stupidity, and in the end the little character development she had was essentially off screen and so random it made the transition between the original series and Gaiden all the more difficult

Edited by Nar123, 14 July 2015 - 11:49 PM.

[James S Cassidy]

 

The problem with a lot of nice guys out there is that they miss the point entirely. Being nice is great, but a lot of women are looking for someone strong/reliable. Often times, the so-called bad boy gives off the appearance of being "strong", hence why so many women chase after them. A lot of "nice guys" make the mistake of not only being nice, but also submissive doormats. This is a real turn off to a lot of women.  Nice guys should keep being nice, but should also be assertive; they should show backbone. Being nice doesn't make you weak.

 

I feel Naruto had backbone, but from an in-universe standpoint (disregarding the author being a bonehead), it's his own fault he didn't get with Sakura. He always made excuses not to tell her how he feels, ultimately giving up and settling for Hinata. If I were in Naruto's position, NaruSaku would've been canon immediately after the first timeskip; Sakura was openly flirting with the dude.

Isn't that assuming too much though? So basically, judging by what both you and Narufan said...if you're a nice guy you're a weakling who gets stepped on or a lying scumbag who just wants to have sexual relationships and treat you like garbage? Wow, no wonder this world is so messed up. They say "never judge a book by it's cover," but dang. Seems the problem is not the "nice guy," but rather people's actual judgement of others. Seeing how apparently being nice and respectful in any way automatically warrants hatred is pretty messed up.

"No, no I didn't mean that...I mean"
But it is exactly what you meant otherwise you wouldn't have said it...otherwise this thought process wouldn't exist if this wasn't the case. It is basically people judging someone simply based on whether they are "nice" or a "douchebag."

So apparently every nice guy is a "rapist" and a "weakling that takes advantage of you" and every douchebag is "cool and really loving guy." Now I really want to shoot myself. That's like me thinking "Every girl who dresses in sexy clothing is a whore and every girl who dresses geeky and unkempt is just a weakling who has no strength in herself" and I know some of you would hate for me to think this. I know one person in particular would be very upset when she reads this.

What if people are just nice because they are nice people? This thought has never crossed people's minds? Wow, just wow. No wonder Naruto ended up the way it did. The Joker is right...it is all one demented joke. I guess the Beast was the real bad guy and Gaston was actually the best guy for Belle in that case. I would say maybe it is the girl's fault too for having weird standards, but again this is something people will fight me on. At least some will

I think "She's out of My League" is the movie that really shows the true issues and the solution to these problems. The movie is basically about people who judge both the guy and girl by their covers on a rating scale and in the end soon realize that Kirk are Molly are perfect for each other because despite everyone else, they themselves saw each other for who they really are.

Patty: "You pick a guy like Kirk because he is safe"
Molly: "Or maybe because Kirk is a nice guy"

Now how does this all apply to Karin? Well, yeah she is crazy and a bit of a obsessive of sorts, but after reevaluating....she might just be the perfect girl for Sasuke. I mean, Sasuke is not exactly stable either and he is just as messed up. This is where Karin comes in who by the way accepted Sasuke for who he is and not tried to change him. She just wanted to love him. This is unlike Naruto and Sakura who spent the entire manga trying to brainwash Sasuke into believing in something he didn't want to. This is why karin looks better because unlike everybody else she is not brainwashed into being a certain way. She is as she is and she accepted that. She just wanted to love Sasuke and pushed to get something out of him. Yeah, it is kind of creepy, but maybe that is exactly what he needed. Isn't it also kind of creepy for several other people to keep chasing him over and over while they barely knew him? Like all of a sudden the whole world needs to stop because their "friend of a few months" went missing? I'd say it is even creepier to try and brainwash someone, but that is just me. At least Karin is honest. Naruto kind of did things behind false pretenses. (According to the canon now)

So whether you like her or hate her or indifferent, you have to give her this. Unlike every other character, she is the only one who remained herself and as crazy as she is she did the least craziest things than anyone else.

Even more fact, I will go on record and say that out of all the people in this manga...she is the only one who is NOT crazy now. Everyone else is out of their minds and brainwashed so much they lost who they are.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 15 July 2015 - 02:58 AM.

[Nar123]

No James... @THWL very clearly said that being nice doesnt make you weak

I think you misinterpreted his statement

Edited by Nar123, 15 July 2015 - 03:54 AM.

[Narufan85]

Isn't that assuming too much though? So basically, judging by what both you and Narufan said...if you're a nice guy you're a weakling who gets stepped on or a lying scumbag who just wants to have sexual relationships and treat you like garbage? Wow, no wonder this world is so messed up. They say "never judge a book by it's cover," but dang. Seems the problem is not the "nice guy," but rather people's actual judgement of others. Seeing how apparently being nice and respectful in any way automatically warrants hatred is pretty messed up.
"No, no I didn't mean that...I mean"
But it is exactly what you meant otherwise you wouldn't have said it...otherwise this thought process wouldn't exist if this wasn't the case. It is basically people judging someone simply based on whether they are "nice" or a "douchebag."
So apparently every nice guy is a "rapist" and a "weakling that takes advantage of you" and every douchebag is "cool and really loving guy." Now I really want to shoot myself. That's like me thinking "Every girl who dresses in sexy clothing is a whore and every girl who dresses geeky and unkempt is just a weakling who has no strength in herself" and I know some of you would hate for me to think this. I know one person in particular would be very upset when she reads this.
What if people are just nice because they are nice people? This thought has never crossed people's minds? Wow, just wow. No wonder Naruto ended up the way it did. The Joker is right...it is all one demented joke. I guess the Beast was the real bad guy and Gaston was actually the best guy for Belle in that case. I would say maybe it is the girl's fault too for having weird standards, but again this is something people will fight me on. At least some will
I think "She's out of My League" is the movie that really shows the true issues and the solution to these problems. The movie is basically about people who judge both the guy and girl by their covers on a rating scale and in the end soon realize that Kirk are Molly are perfect for each other because despite everyone else, they themselves saw each other for who they really are.
Patty: "You pick a guy like Kirk because he is safe"
Molly: "Or maybe because Kirk is a nice guy"
Now how does this all apply to Karin? Well, yeah she is crazy and a bit of a obsessive of sorts, but after reevaluating....she might just be the perfect girl for Sasuke. I mean, Sasuke is not exactly stable either and he is just as messed up. This is where Karin comes in who by the way accepted Sasuke for who he is and not tried to change him. She just wanted to love him. This is unlike Naruto and Sakura who spent the entire manga trying to brainwash Sasuke into believing in something he didn't want to. This is why karin looks better because unlike everybody else she is not brainwashed into being a certain way. She is as she is and she accepted that. She just wanted to love Sasuke and pushed to get something out of him. Yeah, it is kind of creepy, but maybe that is exactly what he needed. Isn't it also kind of creepy for several other people to keep chasing him over and over while they barely knew him? Like all of a sudden the whole world needs to stop because their "friend of a few months" went missing? I'd say it is even creepier to try and brainwash someone, but that is just me. At least Karin is honest. Naruto kind of did things behind false pretenses. (According to the canon now)
So whether you like her or hate her or indifferent, you have to give her this. Unlike every other character, she is the only one who remained herself and as crazy as she is she did the least craziest things than anyone else.
Even more fact, I will go on record and say that out of all the people in this manga...she is the only one who is NOT crazy now. Everyone else is out of their minds and brainwashed so much they lost who they are.

I never once implied or stated that being nice made you weak. I have been very clear in stating that I believe we all should be nice, compassionate people. However, I have also been very clear that Nice Guyism is completely different. I have provided you with an article and a comic. If you need more resources, I'm happy to provide them. But I think the difference is pretty straight forward and easy to understand.

[rocci]

Just because you're nice guy doesn't mean the girl has obligation to accept your feeling and you can bad mouth her if she doesn't choose you.
The same goes with if a girl love guy for long time, doesn't mean the guy has obligation to accept her feeling or else you are a horrible guy.

I see it as a method, just like you show off your wealth or accomplishment. There's nothing wrong with that, it just don't guilt trip or bad mouth her. It's not a gentleman move.


Anyway gentleman >>>>>>>>>>>> cool mysterious handsome jerk.

[sakuraxuzumaki]

No, she kept the freakin umbilical cord!
She's still weird

[xxRomanceGirlxx]

@James S. Cassidy:

 

I think between a nice guy and "Nice" Guy there's a very thin line, but a line nonetheless. It's normal to be frustrated and upset when a girl you like doesn't like you and seems to go for everyone else, especially when you're the one "ALWAYS THERE", but you can't forget your love interest is also a person, not just the object of your desire. You shouldn't keep EXPECTING reciprocation or manipulate all their defenses to get them to that point. They have just as much as right to not like you as you have to like them. The RIGHT nice guy (or nice girl for that matter) is to respect your crush's feelings, even if it's not for you and you love them without expecting anything or manipulation. It shouldn't be the same as weak or a willing doormat - that's just unhealthy. You should be able to stand up for both yourself and them.

 

The worst "Nice" guy character I've ever seen in fiction was in this book series I read. He was a side character who had a one-book romance with the heroine after her falling out with the hero, but then in the next book she realized she still loved the hero and politely told them she just wanted to be friends. Next thing you know, the next book this "nice guy" - the same guy who tried too hard to defend her he wouldn't even let her speak up for herself - went  bats**t crazy and tried to kill her father and her own kids as punishment for breaking up with him. Yeah, I'm not joking. This was the same guy who "claimed" to love her.

 

Kishimoto's characters aren't nearly as bad as that example, but no one who had romantic interest in anyone followed the "nice girl/nice guy" philosophy. They all became selfish, twisted characters who view people as prizes instead of people and constantly expected something that never should've been expected. That is not love, that's obsession. Karin might've surpassed this, but with how little it makes sense given the rest of the series it might as well not exist. Kishimoto doesn't know how to write romance. I hope for any of his future readers' sake he never makes another character involved with romance. He taints the character and he taints the series.

Edited by xxRomanceGirlxx, 21 July 2015 - 04:12 AM.

[Pink Chidori]

I never had any problem with Karin. I found her funny. I thought she had potential to be a badass, and I would've liked to see her as a dark character with questionable motives, instead of Kishimoto continuing to wank Sasuke's "sex appeal" by having all the girls be after him. I'm at the very least, glad that he did not just shove her to the side and had her get over Sasuke, because never liked the "relationship" between the two.