125 replies to this topic

[Freakazoid]

How is Sasuke even close to being a villain? His only crime has been that he left Konoha three years ago and thus becomes a missing nin. But no one cares about that fact excluding Team 7. What of his activities constitutes him to being raised to villain status? He killed Orochimaru who was a huge threat to Konoha. He lead Deidara to his suicide and Itachi died fighting against him and thus took out two Akatsuki members. He captured Killer Bee as a part of Akatsuki (which he was using) but we know that Killer Bee is fine and once that fact becomes known to Raikage, nothing will change. Now he's trying to kill Danzo who ordered for the murdering of his clan. You think him trying to kill Danzo leads to him being classified as a villain and that Naruto will be like "oh no Sasuke don't do it!!" He is a saint in Naruto's eyes for all that matters.

Kishimoto has purposely made him as ambiguous as possible so you can't classify him as good or evil. He can't kill secondary characters so him killing an actual main character is laughable. Naruto's biggest concern is for the redemption of Sasuke and bringing him back. Eventually he will baptize him and make Sasuke see the light and convert to his peaceful movement. It'll be sunshine and rainbows from there.

You see nothing wrong with joining someone that killed the Third hokage and attacked the leaf for power? Betraying all of his friends.

Nothing wrong with joining a group that killed several leaf ninja? Kidnapping someone that was minding their own buisness, protecting their village? Wanting to go and destroy the leaf and anyone that questioned his ways, until interupted by Madara? Trying to kill your former team member twice? Then of course the recent one with chapter 460?

What do you need to classify someone as a villain in a story?

Kishimoto has purposely, if you see it that way, done such up until now. Read the latest spoilers if you have not.

[Nadishani]

sasuke left the village, which makes him a missing-nin. joined pretty much everybody who poses a threat to the village, orochimaru he used but with akatsuki he has been used and obviously is still being used. he tried to kill his formers teammembers AND an anbu from root and an anbu and teamcaptain multiple times. now he's trying to kill elders and kages and will kill everyone who gets in his way. how can you say that sasuke's not even close to being a villain?

[SoftOwnage]

I see your point True. Sasuke will probably even help against a obviously on-coming fight against Naruto and Madara. Btw, anyone have any idea what that little convo between naruto and Itachi was about? It might have had something to do with it. Wish manga would hurry up and translate itself so I could continue the freaking story and find out.

Edited by SoftOwnage, 20 August 2009 - 09:01 PM.

[Froot]

You see nothing wrong with joining someone that killed the Third hokage and attacked the leaf for power? Betraying all of his friends.

Nothing wrong with joining a group that killed several leaf ninja? Kidnapping someone that was minding their own buisness, protecting their village? Wanting to go and destroy the leaf and anyone that questioned his ways, until interupted by Madara? Trying to kill your former team member twice? Then of course the recent one with chapter 460?

What do you need to classify someone as a villain in a story?

Kishimoto has purposely, if you see it that way, done such up until now. Read the latest spoilers if you have not.

HALLELUJAH!!!!

You TELL 'im, Freakazoid-kun! XD

[Nee-sama]

Considering that Sasuke was not, is not evil at heart, his actions can still be arguably ambiguous. Freakazoid you pointed out the bad things he's done, some of which were merely decisions like joining Orochimaru, but how about the things he's done that hint his inner good side? Like -not- trying to kill Naruto, when he was unconscious and vulnerable after their fight; and -not- killing any person not targeted for revenge; not attacking Sai or Sakura or Yamato until they attacked him first; feeling regret about leaving Team 7; and making new friends with Taka teammates.

[Freakazoid]

Considering that Sasuke was not, is not evil at heart, his actions can still be arguably ambiguous. Freakazoid you pointed out the bad things he's done, some of which were merely decisions like joining Orochimaru, but how about the things he's done that hint his inner good side? Like -not- trying to kill Naruto, when he was unconscious and vulnerable after their fight; and -not- killing any person not targeted for revenge; not attacking Sai or Sakura or Yamato until they attacked him first; feeling regret about leaving Team 7; and making new friends with Taka teammates.

Seeing as he had just before that shoved his arm through Naruto's chest grinning, that really doesn't phase me. He said it himself, Sasuke chose not to take his life on a whim. Then he was going to end it on a whim.

He doesn't kill everyone around him? Yeahhhhhhh give the guy a freakin medal! He was still going to go and destroy all of the leaf, your saying that because he was doing it for revenge it's alright? Sweet.

I'll have to go and reread the chapter Sasuke was first introduced before I say anything about him attacking team 7, i'm a little fuzzy on all the details. It doesn't change the fact that he was going to try and kill them all before Orochimaru interupted and they were only there to bring him back to the village.

When did he ever feel regret about leaving team 7? He had one flash back, one panel, devoted to thinking of team 7 in all of part 2, over the year long arc he had. To my knowledge of what I remember we didn't even get text with it, so... No.

He made friends with Taka, alright, sure. Yay? Plenty of villains make friends.

[Froot]

Seeing as he had just before that shoved his arm through Naruto's chest grinning, that really doesn't phase me. He said it himself, Sasuke chose not to take his life on a whim. Then he was going to end it on a whim.

He doesn't kill everyone around him? Yeahhhhhhh give the guy a freakin medal! He was still going to go and destroy all of the leaf, your saying that because he was doing it for revenge it's alright? Sweet.

I'll have to go and reread the chapter Sasuke was first introduced before I say anything about him attacking team 7, i'm a little fuzzy on all the details. It doesn't change the fact that he was going to try and kill them all before Orochimaru interupted and they were only there to bring him back to the village.

When did he ever feel regret about leaving team 7? He had one flash back, one panel, devoted to thinking of team 7 in all of part 2, over the year long arc he had. To my knowledge of what I remember we didn't even get text with it, so... No.

He made friends with Taka, alright, sure. Yay? Plenty of villains make friends.

Oh, suh-NAP! XD yeeeaaaaassshhh lol

[True]

You see nothing wrong with joining someone that killed the Third hokage and attacked the leaf for power? Betraying all of his friends.

Normally I would, but seeing as how Naruto himself doesn't consider that has being evil and villainous how does that many any difference? And the fact that he actually killed Orochimaru which in turn helped Konoha get rid of a forceful enemy.

Nothing wrong with joining a group that killed several leaf ninja? Kidnapping someone that was minding their own buisness, protecting their village? Wanting to go and destroy the leaf and anyone that questioned his ways, until interupted by Madara? Trying to kill your former team member twice? Then of course the recent one with chapter 460?

Except how convenient is it that Killer Bee is alive? If Sasuke was a villain why is it that Kishimoto won't let him kill anybody (fodders don't count) and get rid of two Akatsuki members? Once the fact that Kribee is alive becomes known, will anyone care--especially Naruto? Akatuski is left with only three important members and Sasuke said himself he was just using them. He isn't even trying to destroy Konoha, he is trying to kill Danzou who ordered for the murder of his clan. Danzou, the character which is actually being set up to being a villain, and Sasuke is trying to kill him. That makes him a villain?

What do you need to classify someone as a villain in a story?

Kishimoto has purposely, if you see it that way, done such up until now. Read the latest spoilers if you have not.

Having an evil goal. World domination, destruction of a village, killing for the hell of it. He's trying to kill someone and avenge what he did to his family and clan in the past and totally screwed up his entire life. Logically speaking, Sasuke trying to kill the Hokage would be villainous, but the way Kishimoto has written it the Hokage is the one who's the actually villain.

Edit: excuse any mistakes since it's hard as hell to type from my Iphone.

[Freakazoid]

I won't even bother with the first response. I'll let you have the first one and the second one.. well I just don't see how you can't see the wrong in kidnapping someone. That's like me going and kidnapping some guy for my own reasons, giving him to someone with the intenions of the guy being killed, the dude escaping, so since he escaped i'm home free.

Sorry, I just don't have that train of thinking.


Third point:

Hereand here can be two fine examples. Those are certainly not the words of someone just looking to harm one man.

Edit: I always want to end debates, but they are addictive! I'll have to stop saying such foolish things.

Edited by Freakazoid, 22 August 2009 - 04:10 PM.

[True]

Kidnapping is of evil intent and I'd agree with you logically. However when it comes to Sasuke, in this manga you have to throw out logic. Logically when Sasuke first left Konoha, Tsunade should have sent out a team of hunter-nins and disposed of him so no one could gather Uchiha secrets. Logically speaking, when Sasuke said again that he wasn't returning to Konoha in the beginning of part 2, that should have finally put the issue to rest and Tsunade should have sent her best assassination squad to get rid of him. Yet all these things don't happen as Naruto continues to give him multitudes of chances and sees him in as someone who who should be 'saved' instead of killed. That's why as long as he doesn't kill anybody from Konoha or does a crime so severe that even in Narutoverse logic it is seen as evil, then kidnapping is passable as long as Kribee is alive.

There are only two ways I'd classify Sasuke as a villain. If he actually killed someone of real importance that you can't deny what he has done is evil. Or (and the only real way I'd completely change my opinion) Naruto himself goes from "I'm going to save Sasuke" to "I'm going to kill Sasuke" and cementing the last bit of denial he's had for three plus years.

[Freakazoid]

Kidnapping is of evil intent and I'd agree with you logically. However when it comes to Sasuke, in this manga you have to throw out logic. Logically when Sasuke first left Konoha, Tsunade should have sent out a team of hunter-nins and disposed of him so no one could gather Uchiha secrets. Logically speaking, when Sasuke said again that he wasn't returning to Konoha in the beginning of part 2, that should have finally put the issue to rest and Tsunade should have sent her best assassination squad to get rid of him. Yet all these things don't happen as Naruto continues to give him multitudes of chances and sees him in as someone who who should be 'saved' instead of killed. That's why as long as he doesn't kill anybody from Konoha or does a crime so severe that even in Narutoverse logic it is seen as evil, then kidnapping is passable as long as Kribee is alive.

There are only two ways I'd classify Sasuke as a villain. If he actually killed someone of real importance that you can't deny what he has done is evil. Or (and the only real way I'd completely change my opinion) Naruto himself goes from "I'm going to save Sasuke" to "I'm going to kill Sasuke" and cementing the last bit of denial he's had for three plus years.

So he can kill as long as it's not someone important?

Sweet.

[Dreamer]

Well, we'll just have to see how this Sasuke Vs. Raikage fights go. If indeed Sasuke has lost his mind indicated by murdering lots of the Samurai and hypothetically speaking for now that he does kill Raikage (which is someone really important), then Sasuke would indeed have to be put in the grave for good no/if/ans/or buts.

[jworks]

i mostly base Sasuke's villain status off of the fact that nearly everybody in the story thinks of Sasuke as such. this is excluding Naruto, who is as we know, beyond reason.

so, i see how he doesn't seem to fill that villain mold, and some of you pointed out his hidden good qualities, but most villains would be pretty boring without some deep twists and struggles of contradiction of character.

and i'm not saying Sasuke is a class A villain or the main villain of the story, i think the plot is not quite that simplified. i think he is a once good guy struggling with himself as he steps into the darkness, he is working his way to true villainy, but, yeah,l hes not there yet.

[Nate River]

Well, we'll just have to see how this Sasuke Vs. Raikage fights go. If indeed Sasuke has lost his mind indicated by murdering lots of the Samurai and hypothetically speaking for now that he does kill Raikage (which is someone really important), then Sasuke would indeed have to be put in the grave for good no/if/ans/or buts.

I don't think that's what True means when he says someone important.

Actually, not necessary. If he's "lost his mind" it depends on why. If its from some "evil influence" like Kyuubi or Madara who do you think is going to get the brunt of the blame? It's not going to be Sasuke.

I think you have to look at this from Naruto's perspective. What does he want? He wants Sasuke to come back to Konoha and not in chains. This has been Naruto's goal since Sasuke left. Given Kishimoto's apparent preference for the happy ending, given the nature of Naruto's character, and given that doesn't fail when it really matters most I think there's little doubt Sasuke will redeemed.

Will it be believable is another matter entirely and why I don't think Sasuke will ever do anything horrific, or at least of his own volition. If he does, he'll probably portrayed as a victim of it, in the end.

[Daniee]

and i'm not saying Sasuke is a class A villain or the main villain of the story, i think the plot is not quite that simplified. i think he is a once good guy struggling with himself as he steps into the darkness, he is working his way to true villainy, but, yeah,l hes not there yet.

I agree. The problem with Sasuke is that he's too controlled by his emotions. Like Itachi said before, he's still "pure." Not good or evil, right now he's fighting for what he believes to be justice for his clan and to make himself feel better. But I think that part of Kishimoto's intention with this scene was to say that if Naruto doesn't convince Sasuke to let go of his hate, then eventually he'll forgot all about what he cared about and become a common criminal like Orochimaru. Then history will just repeat itself, which is why Sasuke has to change.

As for his fate... I'm a supporter of him finding peace and not returning to Konoha, but helping them out whenever they're in trouble (supporting Konoha without actually living there would kind of be like what Itachi was doing). It never seemed to me like Sasuke had any real attachment to Konoha itself, only his clan and Team 7. But I think he could eventually go back, after all the wounds heal and he proves himself to be a changed person. Knowing Naruto, he could probably wait.

Edited by Daniee, 23 August 2009 - 07:27 PM.

[Dreamer]

I don't think that's what True means when he says someone important.

Actually, not necessary. If he's "lost his mind" it depends on why. If its from some "evil influence" like Kyuubi or Madara who do you think is going to get the brunt of the blame? It's not going to be Sasuke.

I think you have to look at this from Naruto's perspective. What does he want? He wants Sasuke to come back to Konoha and not in chains. This has been Naruto's goal since Sasuke left. Given Kishimoto's apparent preference for the happy ending, given the nature of Naruto's character, and given that doesn't fail when it really matters most I think there's little doubt Sasuke will redeemed.

Will it be believable is another matter entirely and why I don't think Sasuke will ever do anything horrific, or at least of his own volition. If he does, he'll probably portrayed as a victim of it, in the end.

Theirs only one problem with what you said about Madara would take the blame, Although I seriously doubt Madara is controlling Sasuke, and their will never be any proof that Madara was controlling Sasuke with him talking to Naruto currently. The other half of Kyuubi is sealed away inside the death god.

Edited by Uzumakikage, 24 August 2009 - 01:04 AM.

[Nate River]

Theirs only one problem with what you said about Madara would take the blame, Although I seriously doubt Madara is controlling Sasuke, and their will never be any proof that Madara was controlling Sasuke with him talking to Naruto currently. The other half of Kyuubi is sealed away inside the death god.

I wasn't suggesting them as definite, only possibilities. My point was that doing something bad doesn't necessarily make Sasuke a villain if it is not completely an act of free will. And that if its not an act of free will, the source will eventually get the blame.

[Coulomb]

Sasuke will most likely be redeemed in some way. Even if those feelings are obscured by his hatred and the darkness surrounding him, deep down there is traces of "good" still left in Sasuke.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/414/16/

It isn't like he completely rendered his bonds, he buried them, pushing them further away from his conscious. He still cares for his old team, methinks.

[Dreamer]

Sasuke will most likely be redeemed in some way. Even if those feelings are obscured by his hatred and the darkness surrounding him, deep down there is traces of "good" still left in Sasuke.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/414/16/

It isn't like he completely rendered his bonds, he buried them, pushing them further away from his conscious. He still cares for his old team, methinks.

except for the part you forgot about Sasuke trying to kill Naruto and Sakura with his Kausangi blade. (thanks to Yamoto and Sai from keeping them from being killed)

Anyways I rest my case.

[True]

That happened well over a hundred chapters prior to the incident where Sasuke recalls his old teammates while fighting Kribee. He is shown as been able to be remorseful as he recalls the bonds he shared with his old teammates while in fight that required teamwork from Team Hebi/Falcon.