51 replies to this topic

[Chew]

A perfect example of a bystander effect. People are like dominos- you get one moving, and more will join in. Similarly, you keep them still, and all will remain still. Here we have both things at the same time- the end result was awful, and I really feel for this lady. I don't believe anyone should go through anything like this. At the same time, I won't call the children (because yes, they are twelve or so) monsters or absolute terrible human beings simply because I personally don't know what it is they may be going through that prompted them to act in this manner. Is the behavior bad? Absolutely. Does it warrant needless and unnecessary name-calling? I don't think so, but that's also my opinion.

For those that immediately blame the parents: statements such as "my child would never do this" or "I know my kid and this isn't what he/she does" provides some (keyword here) evidence that the parents may have instilled good values and social manners but aren't aware of the outside influences that media, socialization and other people in general may have. Children aren't robots- they won't obey every single command word for word, action for action. If you tell them to go to bed, it doesn't mean that they'll go to bed. If you tell them to not hang out with "so and so", it doesn't mean that they'll listen. Parental guidance can only go so far, so blaming this fiasco solely on the parents (or at least for the most part) doesn't contribute to anything.

In regards to physical punishment, I don't personally condone it, and if I ever do have children, I don't think I would discipline them in this manner. "Spanking" or any other synonyms people may have breeds more spite and even worse behavior in my opinion. "What was your punishment for doing this?" "Oh I got spanked." The "punishment" itself is a momentary thing- it lasts only as long as the physical pain lasts, and although it does leave some scars on people, the scars won't necessarily represent the wrongly committed action. It would simply be "Oh, this is when this happened so I received this." Reflective punishment however, such as making the child face the person they've wronged, or perhaps forcing them to write something reflective would be more effective in my opinion. Apologizing to someone after knowing what you did was blatantly wrong is a huge task and takes a massive amount of courage. Although this may not seem like a punishment, it is, but in a meaningful sense. It's similar to confronting a fear. It brings up core emotions: shame and guilt. Shame is more external than internal- it's more related to how you feel about other's perceptions of you. Guilt is how you feel about something specifically that you've done and relates to how you view yourself as a person. While these emotions are powerful and, in a metaphorical sense, dark, these emotions are also what drives people to change. For example, someone does something embarrassing and a group of people laughs at them. The person is ashamed, and is thus more careful the next time.

For guilt it becomes a little more complicated, as it has to do more when a person commits something that normally goes against their morals and self-beliefs. For example, I become desperate and cheat on a test. I never cheat, but this time I decided to do it since I was in a tight situation. This action doesn't necessarily have to do with how others' perceive me, but has to do more with how I see myself. I get my test back and it turns out I received an A-- but did I really earn that A? It wasn't on my own merit. I feel guilty, so I rat myself out to the teacher, and since it now involves another person, I am ashamed of my action. Confronting the teacher about my actions is a tough thing because I'm aware that once she knows, her perception of me might change (by the way, I only made the teacher a she because reasons, not because I'm a sexist basterd that believes all teachers are women). Anywho, these examples may seem weird and difficult to apply to the current situation- but how do you think those kids on the bus would fare if they confronted the school bus monitor and apologized? What would go through their minds? Same thing with other children- if you notice, making a child apologize to another child is surprisingly difficult. But making them do it really (for the most part at least) makes things much better than simply hitting (spanking) a child and using constant negative reinforcements. In addition, negative reinforcement that becomes abusive is completely out of line. A learning experience shouldn't have to be traumatic by choice (and by choice I mean the parent choosing to make the punishment traumatic; if the experience itself is traumatic, such as accidentally pushing a person into a body of rushing water and having them swept away in front of your eyes, then there really is no control over how that will affect later behavior), but instead meaningful- it should have logical significance as well as emotional significance.

It's also important to note that although the things these children said to the school bus monitor are malicious and very hurtful, they are also children, and they will make mistakes. Many times people believe they understand the concept of 'consequence', and how their actions may affect themselves and others. Many times, people are also wrong. For most of us, it's only until we make grave mistakes and get ourselves deep in a sh*thole that we begin to realize the true meaning of consequence and what it means to have your actions affect others. For these kids, their mistake was now, and we can only hope that it will make them better and not bitter.

Edited by Pikachew, 08 July 2012 - 10:47 AM.

[Darth Krypt]

You're saying all these level-headed and neutral things now but in your initial post you seemed pretty adamant to defend my dad, despite what he did. I based my reply on the overbearing tone of your post, and matched it - not on what I'm seeing here.

I certainly did not defend your dad. I did read that your dad often drank with his buddies and didn't pay enough attention to you and it affected you tremendously. What I do not personally condone is a child who is still under the care of the parent scolding vulgarities at him/her. Like Greed said, his dad left him when he was five and didn't even bother to support them. Now that they're both reasonable adults, if he thinks saying "kitten you" to his father is the reasonable thing to do, then by all means. But you were still under the care of your father so I didn't really liked the fact. Unless you're able to just leave him and still survive at that point of time. If not, you should respect your parents even if they're not doing a good job.

The point we're (or at least I, but I hypothesize that my stance is closer to others on this "side") trying to get across is that such physical discipline ISN'T NEEDED. You brought up an conclusionary statement yourself (i.e., "if you're strict enough, no beating is required"), and then exemplified it with "he turned out to be a well behaved boy."

I also thought that was the point your "side" was trying to put across, hence I wrote that I thought otherwise. Physical punishment can be effective as shown by all the previous posters, including me, that experienced it themselves and turn out to be respectable people. It may not be needed but I think it shouldn't be voted against. Because it does work. And like every single thing in the world, if its used wrongly then of course there's gonna be bad consequences. Parents who beat their child without the right intentions won't get the right results.

@video:
again, despite it being your opinion, you have to take into account that we don't know enough of these kids to make solid presumptions like that. You can't disregard the possibility that these kids might be, in fact, getting abused at home, and are acting accordingly with that mindset (i.e., I was disciplined like this, I think this lady needs to taught something [probably she's sub-human perhaps], I'll hurt her to teach her). OR they might even lack any parent altogether, and instead be dealing with desertion.

I don't see anything wrong with my assumption. What I said is the kids didn't have anyone to tell them off and keep them in check. That includes emotional support from the parents and the like. I believe that fits the cases you brought up. No one was there for them. Getting abused at home, lacking a parent all boils down to their parents not being there to properly support them. That was my point.

Again, it's called s a t i r e.

He's a comedian, not a professor in child rearing or human development. If he wanted his jokes and anecdotes be taken seriously, he would be in a classroom, not on a stage. And I'm sure he'd hope that his performance wouldn't be included as evidence in a "why beating your kids is right" argument - that's why news reporters don't interview comedians, that's why we don't see Russell Peters Stand-Up specials on psychology syllabi, and that's why we shouldn't use comedy to help put across our points.

Comedians can also have their own personal opinions to put across to the audience. They are often social commentaries. Ever heard of George Carlin? Go check him out on youtube. All his materials are serious stuff about the country and basically the conditions of the human race. They bring out laughter from us but there's also a message. Russell Peters only uses materials about the different races. I believe most of his messages is about races living together in harmony even if it seems ironic that he makes fun of these different races. I think his point is even if different races have different quirks and such, deep down we're still human beings.

@asian parents:
that's a stereotypical generalization which shouldn't be taken seriously. Not to mention racist.

In fact, I'm asian and I know for a fact I won't be beating my kids. Does that make me an outlier or the start of a change in the statistical group?

I'm asian myself, living in Asia. That's why I can confidently say that sending their children to their room is almost non-existent here. I did say that I didn't mean all white parents do that. I'm just saying it out of my own experience. That's why Russell Peters made that joke in the first place, majority of asian parents beat their kids compared to white ones.

What if there was a 9 year old behind this screen who had just finished confiding online about her experience? Would you have changed your tune? Legit question.

I will not change my opinion. I will tell that child that he/she is wrong. And since the child isn't in a position for a retrospection, of course I will change my tune and not mention anything about their parents. I wouldn't want to influence a child's opinion of their own parents because it could affect them greatly and make things worse.

Edited by Darth Krypt, 08 July 2012 - 12:17 PM.

[tricksie]

I certainly did not defend your dad. I did read that your dad often drank with his buddies and didn't pay enough attention to you and it affected you tremendously. What I do not personally condone is a child who is still under the care of the parent scolding vulgarities at him/her. Like Greed said, his dad left him when he was five and didn't even bother to support them. Now that they're both reasonable adults, if he thinks saying "f**k you" to his father is the reasonable thing to do, then by all means. But you were still under the care of your father so I didn't really liked the fact. Unless you're able to just leave him and still survive at that point of time. If not, you should respect your parents even if they're not doing a good job.

That's utterly ridiculous, and tacitly put some of the blame of bad parenting back on the children. If a child lives with crummy parents, their number one priority is to survive. Saying that they should "respect them" is as much of a sliding scale as saying that a 9 year old employing grown up words (F you) to gain the attention of her father equals an adult's use and understanding of the words. A child's understanding of "respect" is that of a child's — not that of an adult who understands responsibilities and consequences. But by saying that a child should "respect" even when they don't fully comprehend that word, also allows you to more easily and comfortable blame the child. Even in the case when the father was so clearly in the wrong.

Often times with abusive parents, they create the conflict just so they can abuse more and still blame the child for their bad behavior. How is a child supposed to reason their way through that? No amount of "respect" will ever fix that situation. The child just has to survive.

I also thought that was the point your "side" was trying to put across, hence I wrote that I thought otherwise. Physical punishment can be effective as shown by all the previous posters, including me, that experienced it themselves and turn out to be respectable people. It may not be needed but I think it shouldn't be voted against. Because it does work. And like every single thing in the world, if its used wrongly then of course there's gonna be bad consequences. Parents who beat their child without the right intentions won't get the right results.

First off, there is no "side" here. This issue of Krisk's post wasn't open for debate. It was sharing a personal experience. Learn the difference.

Second, you are in fact wrong in your beliefs about the benefits of corporal punishment. There have been hundreds if not thousands of studies proving that corporal punishment does far more bad than good. Ironically, one just came out in the last week linking repeated physical punishment to anxiety and depression later in life.

So I don't care how many straw polls you take of yourself and the other people on this board whom you do not personally know, do not pretend to pass you flawed viewpoint off as fact and then use it to judge someone else.

"Parents who beat their child without the right intentions won't get the right results." Congratulations on writing the most screwed up thing I've read all day.

Edited by tricksie, 08 July 2012 - 01:07 PM.

[Darth Krypt]

First off, there is no "side" here. This issue of Krisk's post wasn't open for debate. It was sharing a personal experience. Learn the difference.

Yup, there's definitely sides here. This whole thread clearly shows it. One supports physical punishment as a form of discipline and the other deems it totally unacceptable. If this goes on, we'll argue for an eternity. So no more. I won't reply to this thread anymore. Its gonna create more divide within the H&E community.

[Chew]

^ I don't think the issue is here is about two different viewpoints, just in how these viewpoints are being presented. There are varying viewpoints everywhere throughout this site. It's just the fact that it's the issues of corporal punishment and parenting that are factors for the discussion of this video, and unfortunately they are controversial subjects. Knowing this and knowing this is a public internet community, we should all tread lightly and not try to force opinions down other's throats. We should also refrain from making personal attacks and judgments on people we barely know. If someone says something you strongly disagree with and you have to think about how to word your response to make it appropriate for this thread, then do it in a personal message.

With that said, the direction of this thread isn't even really discussing the video anymore, so I suggest that if any of us are going to tie in personal experiences, other viewpoints etc., it should be in some way connected to the video directly because that was the original topic of discussion.

To get this discussion back on topic: these kids received a community service punishment and something else right? What does everyone think of that?

[The Tax-Man]

To get this discussion back on topic: these kids received a community service punishment and something else right? What does everyone think of that?

I think their punishment was useless, TBH. Do any if the school administrators seriously think that any of these kids would give a kitten about a year of not going to school? If anything, they would prefer it over going to school after that embarrassment. Though I can see them making these kids go through some presentations, counselling etc. etc. Still, Unless they're directly confronted by people OTHER than authority figures, no crap will be given by the bullies in question. Doesn't matter how much 'community service' you make people do, you can't possibly do anything about this situation without actually letting them into school and watching as they get cold shoulders from most students. I've seen that many times (albeit with usually just one person and nothing as serious as this). Only something like that can truly make you think about what you've done.

I'll say one last thing about the respect thing: One shouldn't need to give their parents respect for then to pay attention to the child they gave birth to for them to raise him/her properly. It's their goddamned duty to raise their child. They aren't doing you a favour and you owe them nothing, even if I personally do support respect of parents.

Edited by The Tax-Man, 08 July 2012 - 06:22 PM.

[Super Boom]

1) My replies are in relation to your overall post, not this statement:
I'm assuming it's a typo? Because the context that precedes this statement is decidely supportive of "physical conditioning" against "emotional" moments (e.g., mom's shame; embarrasment in public). If not, it's kind of a contradictory statement to what you said before it, which I doubt you did intentionally. Clarification please?

It probably does seem pretty odd, given the 'with us or against us' tone being presented here. Basically, I was just offering a common counter-argument against proponents of physical conditioning, in that it's really not the absolute extreme case that a lot of parents seem to make it out to be. Though that's also a potential support of it as well, depending on the perspective of the conditioner.

Basically, I'm just presenting the issue as I see it, I'm not actively trying to join either camp. This type of question doesn't really have one distinct answer or "truth", given the various factors at play. What works/worked for some, doesn't work for others, and vice versa. It's just not an issue suitable for blanket statements, especially when personal experience is involved.

If what prompted that statement wasn't in relation to what I said, then ignore that above.

Naw, don't worry. My statement was directed at the general tone I seem to see spring up in these sorts of discussions.

Likewise, however...

2) I feel like I should say: don't take what I'm saying as an attack.
I understand that the temptation to avoid the harder "truth" for something easier is very hard to resist. I'm not immune to such a choice - however, I'm just analyzing here and what it means to choose one over the other; I'm not judging you for your preference, whatsoever.

You posted this second point after one clearly pointed at me, but I'm not quite sure how it's related to anything I said. I made a point of presenting my stance on personal shots in the beginning of my post.

Remember, a winner debates a post, a loser debates a poster.

I do understand the necessity though, seeing some of the previous posts here (and on some other boards, LOL). I'd just thought I'd point out I'm probably one of the last people needing to hear it. The minute someone makes something or takes something personally is the minute they lose the argument, as far as I'm concerned.

Anyhoo, I don't have anything to say regarding the OP that hasn't been said yet, so I'll make like a tree and leaf before I help derail this topic again.

Edited by Boom...Winning, 08 July 2012 - 07:40 PM.

[Sakura Blossoms]

With that said, the direction of this thread isn't even really discussing the video anymore, so I suggest that if any of us are going to tie in personal experiences, other viewpoints etc., it should be in some way connected to the video directly because that was the original topic of discussion.

To get this discussion back on topic: these kids received a community service punishment and something else right? What does everyone think of that?

Thank you for stating what I was actually coming into this thread to say. It shows that there are some members who do realize that much of this thread's discussion has gone way off-topic. Enough of the conversations and LAP posts about personal viewpoints of corporal punishment. It has absolutely nothing to do with the topic itself, and really has gone on long enough. Too long in fact. They all end here.

Stay on topic or refrain from posting.

[Phantom_999]

They should be on "beyond scared straight"

[Derock]

They should be on "beyond scared straight"

This is a very controversial thread, and we'd prefer to keep any further drama from coming from it, especially nowadays on the forum so this thread will now be closed ^^