32 replies to this topic

[Nee-sama]

Guess it's a good time for Sakura to come in and give Naruto backup against the other Pain while Naruto handles god realm pain. Especially since the other frogs are tired now.

This is exactly what I was daydreaming about after reading this chapter
Tsunade : Sakura, Naruto has mastered the Sage abilities and is fighting Pain alone. No one is to interfere. It's too dangerous!
Sakura : But, he needs me! I have to go~


Anyway, yeah this chapter was great! Seems to me that Naruto can manipulate the basic rasengan into anything he can imagine now. Plus he used double rasengan which means he can make a one-handed rasengan, two at once even, at least while he is saged-up.

But I think Naruto's about to be in a much more dangerous situation. He absolutely must not run out of chakra when facing akatsuki, which means he can't fight like the other jinchuriki's and rely on the kyuubi. If he goes all 4-tailed and the fox doesn't completely destroy Pain then he will simply be defeated like the 2-tails woman & Gaara.
PLUS! Naruto did an awesome job of destroying those 4 realms, however, it just increases God realm's strength since all their chakra then goes to him. All this time Naruto has been expending sage energy Pain has been recovering his and now that he sees Naruto is weakened he will press the attack.

[Chivalrysae]

I think Naruto will end up being saved. It could also be the toad sages that save him. They mentioned something about disrupting the realms' link I think. Maybe they have a way to disrupt the flow ot chakra to those metal bars in the bodies. If that's the case, it may force Pein to retreat and give Naruto a chance to regroup. Of course, if that happens, I would expect Naruto to get beat up a little bit until Pein is forced to retreat.

It just seems like after every major fight Naruto has, he ends up in the hospital with Sakura watching over him or scolding him. Just wouldn't be the same without it.

[iwant2bnaruto]

I think Naruto will end up being saved. It could also be the toad sages that save him. They mentioned something about disrupting the realms' link I think. Maybe they have a way to disrupt the flow ot chakra to those metal bars in the bodies. If that's the case, it may force Pein to retreat and give Naruto a chance to regroup. Of course, if that happens, I would expect Naruto to get beat up a little bit until Pein is forced to retreat.

It seemed as though Fukasaku was referring to disrupting the Rinnegan's shared vision. Shima used a Dust Cloud jutsu to blind both God and Hell Realms, while Gamabunta had captured Animal Realm (along with Naruto) in his mouth. God Realm even wondered where they were since his shared vision was cut.

I don't actually think the Toad Sages have a way to disrupt the flow of chakra to the receivers/piercings since they weren't privy to that discovery made by Shizune. Perhaps they may figure something out along those lines though. It is definitely a key piece of information about Pain's abilities that can be advantageous if exploited.

Edited by iwant2bnaruto, 23 January 2009 - 10:51 PM.

[IntrepidSpacemanSpiff]

I thought he would bust out some totally new technique, but he just threw the RasenShuriken. A little disappointed.

[Vyse]

You know guys, as bad as this might look with him losing his Sage-mode and all, I still think the unwritten laws of the Shonen-manga will somehow help him out here. Sure, he did a lot of training with the toads here now, and he should probably be alot stronger than he was, even without his Sage-mode.
The thing is, he did also train with Jiraiya for three years, and I'm still of the opinion that we haven't seen everything he knows just yet. He hasn't really been pushed to his limits in Shippuuden at all, and we know that's when Naruto is at his strongest. Push him to his limits, make it look like he's about to lose, then have him unleash some wicked new combo and save the day. Even without his sage-mode activated, I think Naruto has the skill and ability to keep up with some of Konoha's best without even breaking a sweat, so I'm just hoping he'll pull some awesome feat in the next chapter and force Pein to admit defeat, or at least force him to retreat. Yes, I do have alot of faith in the boy, but he's the main character, so I think my faith is well placed!

Let's see what he'll do, shall we? I'm looking forward to reading the spoilers a couple of days from now.

[Sir Whirly]

You know, that messenger group from Cloud has spent over 6months getting to Konoha, lulz. I wonder if they will show up to save the day...

I dont think Naruto is done yet, but I would like to see what he has stored up for this situation.

[iwant2bnaruto]

You know, that messenger group from Cloud has spent over 6months getting to Konoha, lulz. I wonder if they will show up to save the day...

I dont think Naruto is done yet, but I would like to see what he has stored up for this situation.

It does seem like it has been a long time since the Raikage ordered a team to Konoha. I find it's easy to forget that the events within several chapters can occur in within one day. The Raikage had given his team the notice to the Hokage in chapter 419 which also happened coincide with the beginning of Pain's attack. Given the context of the Pain's attack thus far, it would seem that not even a day has passed.

Based on the world map of the Narutoverse, Kumo appears to be approximately the same distance away from Konoha as Suna is. Since we know it takes 3 days to travel from Konoha to Suna at shinobi speed, I really don't think that the Kumo ninja's will be getting involved at this point.

Naruto World Map

Edited by iwant2bnaruto, 24 January 2009 - 09:07 PM.

[jim1982]

It does seem like it has been a long time since the Raikage ordered a team to Konoha. I find it's easy to forget that the events within several chapters can occur in within one day. The Raikage had given his team the notice to the Hokage in chapter 419 which also happened coincide with the beginning of Pain's attack. Given the context of the Pain's attack thus far, it would seem that not even a day has passed.

Based on the world map of the Narutoverse, Kumo appears to be approximately the same distance away from Konoha as Suna is. Since we know it takes 3 days to travel from Konoha to Suna at shinobi speed, I really don't think that the Kumo ninja's will be getting involved at this point.

Naruto World Map

wait I thought it was three days to get to river country, and like 4-5 to get to Suna. hmm maybe I got it confused.

though, I still wonder if Killer Bee is close to Konoha than the Kumo team.

[iwant2bnaruto]

wait I thought it was three days to get to river country, and like 4-5 to get to Suna. hmm maybe I got it confused.

though, I still wonder if Killer Bee is close to Konoha than the Kumo team.

The 3 day figure I stated was from chapter 252 when Team Kakashi encountered Temari on route to Suna.

Chapter 252, page 2 --Click here to view--

It's unclear exactly where they were when they found Temari and she didn't seem to be in a hurry as she was walking. It could be that they already had traveled a significant distance but there was nothing to indicate that a lot time had passed since Team Kakashi had departed. From Kakashi's statement, we can infer that it is at least 3 days travel at shinobi speed and possibly more as you had said.

When Killer Bee reemerged, it was still at the site of his battle with Sasuke at Unraikyo. I would assume that this would be located within the borders of Lightning Country. If he is closer to Konoha than the Kumo team, it probably isn't by much. Somehow, I also don't think that we'll see Killer Bee interfere at this point either. In his conversation with the Hachibi, he expressed his satisfaction at being free from the village and his "meddling" brother. Evidently he was tired of his duty to defend Kumo and wanted to take a break. I find it difficult to think of a reason for him to come to Konoha's aid with that type of mindset. This is especially so, since for the time being he needs to hide from Akatsuki and his own village. At least that's my speculation on the matter.

[KungFuTruffle]

After giving it some time, and re-reading the chapter, I actually like the way this is going. It wouldn't make much sense if "God" lost in two chapters, just because of Naruto's Training From Hell. Somebody that can blow up a village in a minute needs to be a credible threat, and losing just because we love the main character doesn't work.

I was honestly afraid, after last chapter, that we would get another Kakuzu fight. But instead, we seem to be getting a Gaara like fight. Remember that? Naruto kicked ass for a while, Gaara pulled out his real powers, Naruto got beat up a little, and then we got to the real Meat and Potatoes of the fight, IE Bunta vs One-Tail. I can totally see that happening here.

Now, having said that, I find I must say something else.

I don't like Pain. He seems to be a pretty shallow villain, with little reasoning behind his actions, and even once they're explained, I doubt they will be able to make up for wanting to kill the entire world, just to ensure peace.

Which in itself makes no sense whatsoever. I mean, if everyone's dead, it's not peace. It's just absence of the source of violence. You can't fix things by blowing them up.

As much as we might like to try.

[desaix]

After giving it some time, and re-reading the chapter, I actually like the way this is going. It wouldn't make much sense if "God" lost in two chapters, just because of Naruto's Training From Hell. Somebody that can blow up a village in a minute needs to be a credible threat, and losing just because we love the main character doesn't work.

I was honestly afraid, after last chapter, that we would get another Kakuzu fight. But instead, we seem to be getting a Gaara like fight. Remember that? Naruto kicked ass for a while, Gaara pulled out his real powers, Naruto got beat up a little, and then we got to the real Meat and Potatoes of the fight, IE Bunta vs One-Tail. I can totally see that happening here.

Now, having said that, I find I must say something else.

I don't like Pain. He seems to be a pretty shallow villain, with little reasoning behind his actions, and even once they're explained, I doubt they will be able to make up for wanting to kill the entire world, just to ensure peace.

Which in itself makes no sense whatsoever. I mean, if everyone's dead, it's not peace. It's just absence of the source of violence. You can't fix things by blowing them up.
As much as we might like to try.

I understand that pretty well, actually. I was once working on an original fiction piece (Science Fiction, in this case) where one of the major villains was a 'pacifist' race that had good intentions to start with, but over the millennia had come to the conclusion that, as peace was the absense of conflict, ALL conflict needed to be ended... including things like the conflict between air pressure when you breathed, and the only way to truly 'know peace' was to eliminate... everything. Again, they had started off well-intentioned: Stop wars, stop violence, etc. But as time went on, it became stop playground fights, then stop 'violence' towards the things you consume for food, then, eventually... well, you get the idea. The original race, by this point, had committed what might be termed extinction-by-suicide, but they had created armies of robots controlled by artificial intelligence to complete their work.

A good way to create motivation for a villain is to find them a good cause (pacifism) and to take it to its ultimate extreme, or to have a villain abusing power to achieve it in an 'ends justify the means' way. The tricky thing is when you have both villain AND hero operating under 'ends justify the means' philosophies (see Jack Bauer vs. Villain-of-the-Season, 24) without making the hero just as villainous.

[jim1982]

I understand that pretty well, actually. I was once working on an original fiction piece (Science Fiction, in this case) where one of the major villains was a 'pacifist' race that had good intentions to start with, but over the millennia had come to the conclusion that, as peace was the absense of conflict, ALL conflict needed to be ended... including things like the conflict between air pressure when you breathed, and the only way to truly 'know peace' was to eliminate... everything. Again, they had started off well-intentioned: Stop wars, stop violence, etc. But as time went on, it became stop playground fights, then stop 'violence' towards the things you consume for food, then, eventually... well, you get the idea. The original race, by this point, had committed what might be termed extinction-by-suicide, but they had created armies of robots controlled by artificial intelligence to complete their work.

A good way to create motivation for a villain is to find them a good cause (pacifism) and to take it to its ultimate extreme, or to have a villain abusing power to achieve it in an 'ends justify the means' way. The tricky thing is when you have both villain AND hero operating under 'ends justify the means' philosophies (see Jack Bauer vs. Villain-of-the-Season, 24) without making the hero just as villainous.

That I think is the idea of an anti-hero, Like Ridkitten in pitch black and chronicles. doesn't matter how the villain is stopped, by any means necessary

[iwant2bnaruto]

I don't like Pain. He seems to be a pretty shallow villain, with little reasoning behind his actions, and even once they're explained, I doubt they will be able to make up for wanting to kill the entire world, just to ensure peace.

Which in itself makes no sense whatsoever. I mean, if everyone's dead, it's not peace. It's just absence of the source of violence. You can't fix things by blowing them up.

The thoughts on extremes by desaix is why I find Pain interesting. He has taken a noble goal of ensuring peace and twisted it into some perverted will of a self imposed deity to enlighten the world by putting them through unimaginable horrors wrought by his own hand. How did he get this way? Assuming that Pain is truly Nagato, we know from his time with Jiraiya that he was a timid child that only wanted to protect his friends - even at the cost of his own pain (refering to the guilt he felt when he killed that ninja who hurt Yahiko). What could have happened that contributed to this metamorphosis into a being that wishes to teach everyone what pain and suffering truly is?

The theme of "the ends justify the means" can be found in many stories and genres and is especially prevalent in the more cerebral of them. I find myself inheretly drawn to the theme because it walks such a fine line between right and wrong. When do the methods stray so far into the darkness that one could no longer say the result was worth it - no matter how noble the cause? It's the point where Nagato crossed into darkness that I'm interested in learning and seeing if in the end, he truly believes it. The emotions connected to pain have a nasty habit of blinding one to walk darker paths.

One should also consider how Pain's goal coincides with Madara's. It's difficult to fathom how one who fancies himself a god can simply submit to someone like Uchiha Madara. Madara himself appears to have a more personal agenda based on his focus on swaying Sasuke to his side. Will a betrayal arise within the leadership ranks of Akatsuki?

Of the other prominent villains we've seen in Naruto, Orochimaru's motives seemed trivial in comparison. He simply wanted to learn all the jutsu in the world and figuring that it would take many lifetimes, developed a way to extend his life indefinitely. Obtaining the Sharingan was merely an extension of that goal. The malice he held for Konoha was more of a childish spite due to his being overlooked for the position of Hokage. Now don't get me wrong. I actually liked Orochimaru as a villain and was disappointed with how his demise was handled. I just wanted to use him as a comparative example to show that I don't think Pain is as shallow as you stated.

Edited by iwant2bnaruto, 25 January 2009 - 07:47 PM.