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Sasuke stabbing habit: Naruto vs Karin


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#1 redragon88

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Posted 25 April 2014 - 01:34 AM

Why is Sasuke stabbing Naruto sometimes overlooked as opposed to when he did it to Karin?

 

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If anything when it happened to Naruto it was even more brutal.

 

Nate River once told me that it's different with Naruto since he was fighting Sasuke, but that just feels like an excuse to justify it. I would see it differently if Naruto was also trying to kill Sasuke, but that was never the case.

 

Sasuke chose to kill Naruto when he was already at his mercy instead of just incapacitating him.

 

EDIT:

 

Oh cool you're already here Nate. I look forward to your responses. It's half the reason I made this thread.


Edited by redragon88, 25 April 2014 - 01:40 AM.


#2 Nate River

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Posted 25 April 2014 - 01:56 AM

More brutal...heh.

It's not. Karin was a hostage. She was on his side and actively helping him during the battle. When she became a problem she was run through. Naruto was Sasuke's adversary and actively trying to oppose him. Karin was his ally.

What Sasuke did was not okay, but Naruto picked that fight and lost. My heart tends not to ache for those that pick fights and up with their asses kicked because they lost. Naruto assumed the risk going in. How is Karin supposed to assume the risk of being run through by a person she thought an ally and the time she needed him the most. And yet, when he's betrayed at her lowest point she returns like it's not big deal. How is Naruto betrayed by this? It's ruthless and cold, but there is no betrayal of trust. He went after Sasuke expecting a fight.

My beef with you is that you try to pass this off as the same and it's. What he did to Karin is worse and, if nothing else, this incident isn't recycled for chuckles by the author. Part of the reason I despise Karin so much is because the author has treated the character like garbage. The depth provided isn't irrelevant.

This reeks of minimization to justify why Karin's characterization shouldn't be despised. Your best case scenario is that he's a turd in both cases and that both Karin and Naruto are total morons. That's the best you'll ever get out of me. I've criticized Kishimoto's approach to Naruto's pursuit many times in the past. I can do it again. I won't condone what Sasuke did, but what he did to Karin is still so much worse.

It cannot be dressed up. It cannot be made better.

#3 redragon88

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Posted 25 April 2014 - 02:11 AM

@Nate River

 

Dude, relax a bit. I didn't make this thread to attack you or anything. I wanted to know if you (and anyone else that wants to join in) had more to say beyond what we discussed a while ago.

 

Why wouldn't it be more brutal? I think using your whole hand to pierce someone would be considered somewhat more gory.

 

You see it from the perspective of Naruto and Karin, but I think it's more important to see it from Sasuke's point of view considering he's the one who committed the acts. Naruto and Karin where in his way and he dealt with them accordingly. I really don't see how in it's essence one can be different from the other.

 

I didn't make this topic to talk about Karin's characterization or Naruto's. I did it to focus on what Sasuke did. You keep insisting that what Sasuke did to Karin was worse, but I don't see you giving me any particular reason to believe it beyond it being how you feel.

 

Sasuke chose to try and kill both Naruto and Karin, the circumstances are different but Sasuke's intents are the same. Also, Naruto didn't start to fight Sasuke expecting that he would try to kill him, it was only after a while that Naruto came to that realization and it broke his heart. Naruto also felt betrayed by what Sasuke kept doing in the Valley of the End.



#4 The Tax-Man

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Posted 25 April 2014 - 02:39 AM

Oh, this thing again. Eh, I'll take a shot at it.

[1)] You see it from the perspective of Naruto and Karin, but I think it's more important to see it from Sasuke's point of view considering he's the one who committed the acts. Naruto and Karin where in his way and he dealt with them accordingly. I really don't see how in it's essence one can be different from the other.
 
[...] 

[2)] Sasuke chose to try and kill both Naruto and Karin, the circumstances are different but Sasuke's intents are the same. Also, Naruto didn't start to fight Sasuke expecting that he would try to kill him, it was only after a while that Naruto came to that realization and it broke his heart. Naruto also felt betrayed by what Sasuke kept doing in the Valley of the End.

 

1) The circumstances (and Sasuke's mental state) were completely different. I don't mean any offense (and I know you do great analyses), but I honestly can't take anyone's comprehension of the manga seriously if they think these things are essentially similar. "Why"? Because first of all, Naruto and Karin were both "in his way", but in completely different ways. Naruto was trying to stop Sasuke from pursuing his revenge. Sasuke was already ENORMOUSLY ticked off by that point because of Naruto's rapid growth and the fact that if it continued, he would surely be left far behind. It wasn't the most sane decision Sasuke's ever made (yeah, right), but he stabbed a man who outright picked a fight at a time when feelings of inadequacy, a need to prove himself, and suppressed anger were the biggest motivators of his actions. Essentially, Sasuke stabbed his rival - the guy who he basically saw as his 'sworn enemy' because of his state of mind at that point - and took the fight too far.

 

Now Karin, on the other hand, had NOTHING to do with the conflict when she was stabbed. She was, for all intents and purposes, a mere part of the scenery in Sasuke's mind. His fight was fully with Danzo and no one else. She "got in his way" in the same way as a tree does. Or that was the way Sasuke acted, anyway. In that sense, his stabbing of Danzo through Karin like she was a prop was much less justified and thus much more of a betrayal.

 

 

2) True on most counts. No one ever said Naruto didn't feel betrayed or expected Sasuke to kill him. However, from Sasuke's point of view (as you want us to focus on), he'd told Naruto to back the kitten off. Now, no one goes into a fight expecting to be killed, it just happens. That's a possibility you MUST be prepared for and, being a ninja (laughably), Naruto would've known that.

 

Now, I'm not arguing that Sasuke was completely justified in trying to kill Naruto or that he didn't betray him. BUT, such behavior is much less acceptable if the object of said stabbing happens to never have opposed a word you said and has been on your side of things for a long time. Hell, I seem to recall a lot of people saying that he'd grown to care a little about Taka by then. So please, do correct me if I'm wrong in saying that Sasuke should lose much more respect in the eyes of readers for what he did to Karin relative to what he did to Naruto.

 

 

On a final note, this is exactly why Karin not feeling betrayed in the slightest and going back to fangirl mode after, like, 5 panels being kindasorta mad at him utterly destroys any semblance of a "backbone" people claim she has.


Edited by The Tax-Man, 25 April 2014 - 02:42 AM.

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1. "This is worthless NONSENSE."
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#5 redragon88

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Posted 25 April 2014 - 03:07 AM

@The Tax-Man

 

Thanks for also posting. Although I think it's a little rude to go about insulting my reading comprehension. If you have that much bias about my opinion I don't think I can take YOU seriously then.

 

About 1) :

To be honest, the way you word it actually makes me feel that Sasuke was more cruel towards Naruto since he went at him with complete hate and frustration.

 

About 2) :

I don't think Sasuke particularly cares if anyone has a good or bad opinion of him. He doesn't take that into consideration to fulfill his goals. Neither with Naruto or with Karin.

 

Maybe I would see it differently if Sasuke pierced Naruto as they battled, but Sasuke was clutching at Naruto's throat. Sasuke had Naruto as his mercy and aimed for the heart. He wanted Naruto dead beyond doubt.


Edited by redragon88, 25 April 2014 - 03:08 AM.


#6 The Tax-Man

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Posted 25 April 2014 - 03:36 AM


@The Tax-Man

 

Thanks for also posting. Although I think it's a little rude to go about insulting my reading comprehension. If you have that much bias about my opinion I don't think I can take YOU seriously then.

 

About 1) :

To be honest, the way you word it actually makes me feel that Sasuke was more cruel towards Naruto since he went at him with complete hate and frustration.

 

About 2) :

I don't think Sasuke particularly cares if anyone has a good or bad opinion of him. He doesn't take that into consideration to fulfill his goals. Neither with Naruto or with Karin.

 

Maybe I would see it differently if Sasuke pierced Naruto as they battled, but Sasuke was clutching at Naruto's throat. Sasuke had Naruto as his mercy and aimed for the heart. He wanted Naruto dead beyond doubt.

 

I'm not insulting you, I said that. What I am doing is saying that the moment with Karin was quite obviously intended to be much more serious and a much darker part of Sasuke's 'corruption'.

 

No, he wasn't. Cruelty is more than just intention, especially if that intention is fueled by naturally aroused antagonistic emotions with a lot of buildup. Of course, you'll say that his absolute insanity when he stabbed Karin also came from a lot of emotional buildup. My response to that is simply that, again, battle is a whole 'nother beast.

 

No, that was entirely a part of and was caused by their fight. Yes, he was unnecessarily brutal, but I think I explained exactly why that was. Of course he wanted Naruto dead. I'm not excusing him from that. But he respected Naruto as a person enough to, in a twisted way, come to the conclusion that he had to eliminate him. I think that was quite adequately suggested by Kishimoto, so I wont go into it more than that.

 

Now Karin, however, wasn't even given that. As I said, she was not even human at that point. That is the reason for my saying that it was much worse. Sure, the thing with Naruto was more physically graphic. But that was just a consequence of, again, the circumstances. Cruelty is decided by the thoughts and circumstances of the 'evil' act.

 

You keep repeating the evidence for Sasuke's stabbing of Naruto being brutal, but that does nothing to change the fact that Karin was very clearly on his side. Sure, he doesn't give a rats arse about that. But that doesn't mean that all his stabbings are equal. Take this, for instance: If we try to forget that Sakura is a protagonist, him managing to land a blow on her would've been more justified and therefore much less 'cruel', even. She, like Naruto, was there to explicitly oppose Sasuke. Hell, maybe him stabbing her would actually be better than Naruto since she was literally there to kill him and used blatant trickery.

 

Basically, what I'm saying is that trying to make the stabbing of Karin and Naruto equivalent would be akin to trying to make the stabbing of Naruto and the (imagined) stabbing of Sakura equivalent. I really, really don't see how you can try to make that argument. It honestly confuses me because it seems like a magnification of details and ignoring of the big picture to make the facts fit the idea that Sasuke's actions weren't bad enough to warrant a grudge.


Edited by The Tax-Man, 25 April 2014 - 03:41 AM.

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1. "This is worthless NONSENSE."
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3. "True, but quite unimportant."
4. "I ALWAYS SAID SO!"


#7 ramenanmitsu

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Posted 25 April 2014 - 04:11 AM

As a Sasuke fan, I should be happy with the loads of threads he has :D Too bad it focuses on his evil deeds which he deserves so I can't say anything, lol.
 
Okay, since you are curious to what other people may think in regards to Sasuke's brutality, I will share my opinion.
 
In my opinion, Karin got it more brutal.
 
Below are the reasons:-
1. The reason why Sasuke didn't kill both of them in the end were different. 
Karin:-He was distracted by Sakura. If it weren't for her he would have killed her because she "knew too much".
Naruto:-He didn't want to be like his brother, who kills his best friend to receive power. Remember when Sasuke was very young he got angry at his brother shouting, "You killed all the people just for such a silly reason!?" after Itachi said that he wanted to test his strength? I think it's a similar case here. Sasuke's words. "I am not going to be like you(Itachi)."
 
Sasuke didn't kill Naruto in the end through his own will, whereas, in Karin's case he couldn't kill her because of distractions. 
 
2. Threat.
 
Naruto:-Naruto have become very strong to the point that Sasuke felt like he wasn't growing at all (Kakashi's words). This along with Itachi's constant mind-kitten has prompted Sasuke to go towards Orochimaru. Naruto went with the intention to 'forcefully' bring Sasuke back even at the cost of breaking his legs and arms. And therefore, Sasuke was forced to fight back a battle Naruto started in order to continue his goals. Naruto was a powerful force that was against him. Naruto should have seen it coming since he was the one who started attacking with brute force. Don't attack somebody and expect to come back unscathed. 
 
Karin:-Karin didn't start a battle against Sasuke, she wasn't a powerful force against him. In fact it was the absolute opposite. She was a helpless force.
 
Trying to kill a fierce doberman that won't stop trying to bite you and a defenseless puppy that can't even move are not the same thing. I know you might discard this sentence because you think it's an overexaggerated example, but in my opinion it's quite a valid example. 
 
What Sasuke did against Naruto wasn't justifiable at all, but it is much more understandable that Sasuke attacked Naruto with the intention to kill compared to Karin. 
 
3. Intentions
It's obvious that Naruto and Karin were both "in the way" of Sasuke's goals at the moment. Remember, Sasuke is the guy who has a particular goal in mind and he discards things or people with less priorities so he can focus on his goal? In this aspect Naruto and Karin are no different. This might be connected with No. 2. The reason why Sasuke killed them was because they were "in the way". So let's see just why they were in the way.
 
Naruto:-No need to explain as I said in No. 2. Naruto attacked with the intention to forcefully bring Sasuke back, even at the cost of his arms and legs. Naruto was getting in the way because he tried to bring Sasuke back with brute force. Sasuke responded with brute force of his own.  
 
Karin:-She was there at that place because Sasuke specifically told her to be there so he can find Danzo. He asked her to sense him and so she obliged bringing herself to a dangerous battlefield for the sake of helping Sasuke. He used her and THEN he killed her. 
 
Trying to kill a person who is a loyal supporter of your goals is so much more crueller than killing a person who is against you and use brute force to sway you back. What makes it worse is that said supporter was getting "in the way" because of none other than Sasuke's orders itself. 
 
This is just my opinion. Take it as you will. 

Edited by ramenanmitsu, 25 April 2014 - 04:13 AM.

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#8 redragon88

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Posted 25 April 2014 - 04:22 AM

@The Tax-Man

 

While Karin's stab was given a serious tone to focus on Sasuke's darkness it doesn't seem like it's done for anything else beyond story progression. That's why I see the acts themselves with Naruto and Karin with the same gravity.

 

Maybe to me it's just a case of apples and oranges. Different circumstances, same results (stab stab).

 

And from how I see things, during the Summit arc it was clear that Sasuke didn't care if Karin was at his side or not. Revenge is all that mattered and everything else was irrelevant to him.

 

You said Sasuke came to the conclusion that he needed to eliminate Naruto since he was a threat to his revenge, but wouldn't the same be of Karin? Karin was a threat by becoming a liability (at least in Sasuke's mind) therefore she needed to be sacrificed in order to fulfill his goals.

 

On the other hand, I think I'm starting to understand why you see it as different. Some of it has to do with Sasuke disregarding Karin as an expendable, right? If that's a basis for you to see it differently I will not object to it because you are right about Sasuke seeing Karin like that at the Summit.

 

But to be honest, whether Sasuke thinks of someone as a rival or as an expendable ally I just don't see that as needed to be used in order to judge his acts. Sasuke made the choice to kill both when there was no need, and because Sasuke made that choice I see both events in equal harsh matter even if the circumstances are different. That even goes to his attempts on Sakura, even if he didn't manage to harm her.

 

----------------------------------------------

 

You know, this talk it's weird, but in a good way. I sort of understand why you see those moments as different despite my own interpretation of it. I don't agree with your opinion but I don't actually find it as a bad opinion or anything like that. It's an odd sensation.

 

I'm kinda glad I made this topic even if no one ends up changing anyone's opinion.

 

@ramenanmitsu

 

Thanks for also joining in. You make very interesting points.

 

About 1)

That is very true. At the end of Naruto's confrontation Sasuke chose to spare him, that's undeniable. I suppose I'm focusing more on his intentions when he actually did pierce Naruto. At that point Sasuke was aiming for his heart, so he had the clear intention of killing him right there without hesitation.

 

About 2)

It's true that Naruto was an active threat to Sasuke, but Karin became a threat as well in a passive way. She got in the way of his revenge by becoming a hostage and was dealt with.

 

About 3)

So you also think that since Karin is an ally that made it worse. I suppose it gives a more emotional impact, but I don't see how that makes the act of choosing the kill option any worse.

 

Like I said before, maybe I see both just as bad since Sasuke had Naruto by the throat and chose to aim for his heart of all places.


Edited by redragon88, 25 April 2014 - 04:49 AM.


#9 The Tax-Man

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Posted 25 April 2014 - 04:50 AM

I'm just going to say a few more things.

 

Apples and oranges is my point exactly. Circumstances form the bulk of justification for actions. Yeah sure, the result was about the same, but that completely misses the point IMO.

 

Lemme make an analogy. Lelouch stabbing Suzaku vs Ohgi. The intention and mindset can make all actions understandable, not necessarily equally evil or forgivable.

 

You contradicted yourself, dude. Sasuke DID see Naruto as a threat to his revenge, and with good reason. As you just said you understood, Karin wasn't threatening kitten. She happened to be a hostage. Actually, that brings up another thought: even if both are obstacles to your crazed mind, killing a hostage and a genuine combatant aren't the same thing. This argument is completely independent of who's on whose side.

 

I'm glad you understand, even if it wont change your mind. Now do ya get why I said this seemed like cherry picking convenient evidence? :P

 

With Sakura, I was just making the point that if she was stabbed, it wouldn't be equivalent to stabbing Naruto at VotE. And now I see your argument clearly. At its core, it seems to me that you think actions are only to be judged on the intended physical act. Ask anyone who's studied law or any ethics: do the circumstances and victims' innocence/fault truly not matter?

 

 

Yeah, I think I know what you mean. For me, that odd sensation is a consideration of others' opinions and a reevaluation of your own. Used to annoy me, but now I kinda like it.  :yes: I do a lot of preaching about dialogue, but IMO every discussion is worth having. So there's my plug for free speech for the day!  :sweat:


Edited by The Tax-Man, 25 April 2014 - 04:56 AM.

naruto.gif

1. "This is worthless NONSENSE."
2. "This is an interesting, but perverse, point of view..."
3. "True, but quite unimportant."
4. "I ALWAYS SAID SO!"


#10 The Tax-Man

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Posted 25 April 2014 - 05:07 AM

@ramenanmitsu

I... have no idea what those words mean. Seems like German, but that's all I got.  :confused:

 

For sure, though. I think opinions on matters like how bad someone's actions are do depend highly on traditional attitudes. At some point, though, you have to confront other ideas and try to figure out what applies when. Otherwise, you're left with mindless extremist rhetoric. But that discussion is a minefield and completely outside the scope of this particular question/thread so I wont even go there.

 

 

And everybody else, we seem to be kinda stuck here. Opinions?


naruto.gif

1. "This is worthless NONSENSE."
2. "This is an interesting, but perverse, point of view..."
3. "True, but quite unimportant."
4. "I ALWAYS SAID SO!"


#11 redragon88

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Posted 25 April 2014 - 05:19 AM

Lemme make an analogy. Lelouch stabbing Suzaku vs Ohgi. The intention and mindset can make all actions understandable, not necessarily equally evil or forgivable.

 

Lelouch? That's from Code Geass.... but I never saw it. :sad:

 

You contradicted yourself, dude. Sasuke DID see Naruto as a threat to his revenge, and with good reason. As you just said you understood, Karin wasn't threatening kitten. She happened to be a hostage. Actually, that brings up another thought: even if both are obstacles to your crazed mind, killing a hostage and a genuine combatant aren't the same thing. This argument is completely independent of who's on whose side.

 

Where did I contradict myself? I said that both Naruto and Karin became threats in their own way. Karin became one in a passive matter, at least in my opinion. Sasuke, as crazed as he was, concluded that Karin became a liability for his revenge for getting caught, and since revenge is all that mattered he wasn't going to have any of that.

 

A thing I noticed is the emphasis to mention how Naruto was a combatant, but the fact remains that Sasuke stabbed him at the point where Naruto was at his mercy. It didn't happen during high tension combat. It's not like Sasuke launched at Naruto as they fought, he had him at the throat and aimed at the heart.

 

It's easy to dismiss Naruto's scene since they were in a fight, but the specific circumstances of Sasuke's attack (Naruto at his mercy, aiming for heart) should also be considered.

 

I'm glad you understand, even if it wont change your mind. Now do ya get why I said this seemed like cherry picking convenient evidence? :P

 

I get why, I just don't agree with it. :P

 

With Sakura, I was just making the point that if she was stabbed, it wouldn't be equivalent to stabbing Naruto at VotE. And now I see your argument clearly. At its core, it seems to me that you think actions are only to be judged on the intended physical act. Ask anyone who's studied law or any ethics: do the circumstances and victims' innocence/fault truly not matter?

 

I suppose not the physical act in and of itself, but on the choice behind said act. In both cases Sasuke chose to kill when there was no need, therefore both acts are just as bad.

 

I do get why you say that Karin being an ally gives a more emotional impact, but the acts themselves are the same. At least to me.

 

Yeah, I think I know what you mean. For me, that odd sensation is a consideration of others' opinions and a reevaluation of your own. Used to annoy me, but now I kinda like it.  :yes: I do a lot of preaching about dialogue, but IMO every discussion is worth having. So there's my plug for free speech for the day!  :sweat:

 

Liberty and equality for all.

 

Hmm? Just a thought. Maybe the opinions depend on whether you have the Handlungsunwert theory or the Erfolgsunwert theory in your culture/country

 

In Japan it's the former. 

 

The what?


Edited by redragon88, 25 April 2014 - 05:20 AM.


#12 The Tax-Man

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Posted 25 April 2014 - 05:31 AM

@redragon88

And there's the precise point of our disagreement. I don't believe that intentions and making the choice to kill (again, circumstances) are the be-all and end-all. There is no way I can convince you or you can convince me on that without having a lengthy debate on causality, well-being, and justice. So agree to disagree?

 

What I can clear up, though, is that I recognize that Naruto was in a vulnerable position when he was stabbed. But you can't just ignore the context, prelude, and aftermath of the entire situation and just focus on the vulnerability of both victims in the moment of attack. Not without taking the situation out of context, anyway. But that's just bad form.


Edited by The Tax-Man, 25 April 2014 - 05:33 AM.

naruto.gif

1. "This is worthless NONSENSE."
2. "This is an interesting, but perverse, point of view..."
3. "True, but quite unimportant."
4. "I ALWAYS SAID SO!"


#13 redragon88

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Posted 25 April 2014 - 05:48 AM

@redragon88

And there's the precise point of our disagreement. I don't believe that intentions and making the choice to kill (again, circumstances) are the be-all and end-all. There is no way I can convince you or you can convince me on that without having a lengthy debate on causality, well-being, and justice. So agree to disagree?

 

Correct. It's just as you say.

 

What I can clear up, though, is that I recognize that Naruto was in a vulnerable position when he was stabbed. But you can't just ignore the context, prelude, and aftermath of the entire situation and just focus on the vulnerability of both victims in the moment of attack. Not without taking the situation out of context, anyway. But that's just bad form.

 

Just to clarify I did consider all the context beyond just the attack, and concluded that while different they were both shocking moments in their own way. But that's just my personal opinion. I don't expect that anyone to agree with me word for word, and that's fine.

 

A reason I made this thread was to hear more opinions in order to understand why people thought differently from me, and I think I got a clear idea of it all. And in all honesty, it's all very satisfying so I'm glad we had this discussion.



#14 ramenanmitsu

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Posted 25 April 2014 - 06:32 AM

The what?

 

Holy kitten. I'm going to delete my previous stupid post because it's totally going to go beyond this topic.  
 
In very short (and not so precisely) these two theories determine how to consider the unjustification of an act.
 
Erfolgsunwert: The actual or possible violation of rights or each one's benefit.
Handlungsunwert: The actual or possible violation of rights or each one's benefit + The degree of deviation from Social Reasonableness(Putting into consideration the history of social moral).
 
There is no 100% Erfolgsunwert way of thinking or Handlungsunwert way of thinking. But each country and culture has a different ratio of which they focus more on. I was thinking why each of us have such differing opinions to how to consider Sasuke's act was based on which theory our own culture/country uses when faced with a criminal act. 
 
This was just my VERY rough explanation of the theory so take with a grain of salt. 

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#15 redragon88

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Posted 25 April 2014 - 07:23 AM

 

 

Holy kitten. I'm going to delete my previous stupid post because it's totally going to go beyond this topic.  
 
In very short (and not so precisely) these two theories determine how to consider the unjustification of an act.
 
Erfolgsunwert: The actual or possible violation of rights or each one's benefit.
Handlungsunwert: The actual or possible violation of rights or each one's benefit + The degree of deviation from Social Reasonableness(Putting into consideration the history of social moral).
 
There is no 100% Erfolgsunwert way of thinking or Handlungsunwert way of thinking. But each country and culture has a different ratio of which they focus more on. I was thinking why each of us have such differing opinions to how to consider Sasuke's act was based on which theory our own culture/country uses when faced with a criminal act. 
 
This was just my VERY rough explanation of the theory so take with a grain of salt. 

 

 

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That might be a little deeper than what I was aiming for here, but if you really want to post more about it I think it's fine.

 

I'm already satisfied with the answers I got so I'll leave this thread for people to do with it as they wish.



#16 Broken Figurine

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Posted 26 April 2014 - 12:00 AM

People may talk about it more because it's recent, and the consequences of it (or lack thereof) are more immediate. We saw how that fight with Sasuke and Naruto ended up, and the brutality of their conflict had been set up prior to it. Recall the rooftop scene where Naruto and Sasuke are charging at each other, rasengan and chidori in hand. Their rivalry from that point forward took a turn toward violence, and so when Sasuke actually stabbed him, it was something that had been built up before... and Naruto was not far from that point, either. They didn't end up killing each other, and Naruto was definitely the party holding back--but then, he's Naruto. Sasuke is willing to go that far, because he's the character that has to be 'dark'. 

 

Karin's stab didn't have that set up. It came kind of as a surprise, though the moment she was taken hostage I sort of knew, but it moved Sasuke from killing 'only when necessary' to making against an ally who's only ever been supportive of him. That support of course being in line with the darkness he descends into, but she doesn't need to have the same moral high-ground that Naruto does. Karin is far more passive than she is having a backbone, her agency is completely around Sasuke, and her stabbing and what she resolved afterward was the highlight of her character. Not because I utterly despise her and want her dead, but because for a brief glimmer it seemed that she had learned something even Sakura (whom she's an obvious Part 1 extreme expy of), and even Naruto hadn't--to let Sasuke go. It seemed like we'd start seeing a Karin independent of Sasuke; maybe exploring dialogue with people of Konoha--getting to see what Sasuke CHOSE to leave behind, learning about her fellow Uzumaki, connecting with Sakura.

 

Or just respectfully slipping out of the manga for awhile, ending on a note of self respect. She didn't though, so for me, the reason why I discuss Karin's stabbing over anyone else is not because of a pain olympics over which was more brutal, which was worse, but rather what it meant for the characters. Karin's handling, agree or not, was atrocious, and we haven't seen ENOUGH build up to buy that such a consequential action like an attempt on her life would garner her forgiveness and devotion with a mere 'sorry'. People mistake Karin's being brash, yelling, and throwing COMEDIC punches around as a backbone in arguments why she somehow works better as a match than Sakura, but this isn't true at all. Karin is incredibly permissive. She cares about him, but she's not really doing anything to help Sasuke off a dark path--by offering her help, and joining the Akatsuki with him, she encourages it. 

 

Naruto's relationship with Sasuke had its build up. Even if the stabbing was equally as horrible, which I dunno it might be, the manga explored their friendship, rivalry, and the complexity of their increasingly turbulent relationship enough that their relationship could 'take that blow' and I can still understand that Naruto wants to stick by him. Karin, in contrast, has nowhere near this amount of development. In her dying moments, she was thinking about the time he saved her from a bear.

 

To recap: he would have only met her JUST THEN, saved her because I dunno, he was a good guy back then (unless you're telling me 12 year old Sasuke was the kind of boy to fall in love at first sight) and then simply gone back. Then they would have met when he joined Orochimaru, which is a fair two years of development I'll admit, but we never. saw. any. of. it. It's in the land of la dee da speculation and fan imagination. For a man who loves flashbacks, he certainly chose to have Karin fixate on a boring one. So, no build up, hardly the same amount of character relationship, and she gets stabbed. 

 

It's the more problematic of the two, and deserves more discussion because it is just so bad in it's handling. Nobody joked about Naruto nearly being stabbed; or Sakura. Their relationships to Sasuke are usually treated seriously, not that there aren't greivances with Naruto and Sasuke's relationship either. Though by far, of all of the relationships Sasuke has severed by his attempt to murder, Karin's was the one that had the dumbest resolution. In the middle of a war she's getting hot and bothered because Sasuke is around? This is before any 'sorry' mind you (which I see the some aspects of the fandom take as an OK to Sasuke and Karin's relationship). 

 

Bottom line; for me, it's less the act itself, and more what happens later. 



#17 Yami_no_Princess

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Posted 26 April 2014 - 05:37 AM

Why is Sasuke stabbing Naruto sometimes overlooked as opposed to when he did it to Karin?

 

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If anything when it happened to Naruto it was even more brutal.

 

Nate River once told me that it's different with Naruto since he was fighting Sasuke, but that just feels like an excuse to justify it. I would see it differently if Naruto was also trying to kill Sasuke, but that was never the case.

 

Sasuke chose to kill Naruto when he was already at his mercy instead of just incapacitating him.

 

EDIT:

 

Oh cool you're already here Nate. I look forward to your responses. It's half the reason I made this thread.

Honestly, I tend to think the same way you do Red. ^_^;

 

In both instances Sasuke made the conscious decision to sacrifice them for his revenge. 

 

In Naruto's case, he simply couldn't go through with it. He rationalizes later that it was so he wouldn't be Itachi's puppet, but I think he just underestimated how much he cared about Naruto. He wasn't as emotionally prepared to end Naruto as he thought he was. (Much like how Sakura couldn't bring herself to end Sasuke when the moment came.)

 

In Karin's case, she was pretty much as good as dead. Sure he'd missed her heart, but she was going to bleed out anyway. The Chidori to finish her off was just to expedite the process and make sure she wasn't picked up by the enemy. Even so, he hesitated an awful lot preparing that Chidori, taking up a panel to stare at the sky in thought, you'd think after deeming her a burden, he'd be in a hurry to finish her off. It's because he hesitated that Sakura was able to get there in time to distract him. Had he been really focused on threat elimination, he could have easily ended Karin in one panel. I still have no idea why darksuke hesitated so much especially since killing Danzo made him blood thirsty. 

 

I remember someone else brought up the point that murder attempts are seen differently in the Naruto world than our world. This is a world where 12 year olds are trained how to kill and people die on a regular basis. They may simply just have a different moral compass than we're used to.



#18 Chatte

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Posted 26 April 2014 - 10:34 AM

In both cases the CORE reason Sasuke went nuts is Itachi and his family. For his revenge. The only thing changed was that one was done before Sasuke knew the truth about Itachi and the second after he knew. In the second case it's even more traumatic, you find out how your brother actually wasn't the bad guy, thus he had to "un-purify" [if that's the word] of his Uchiha name clan, therefore his revenge became even more gruesome. Only this time, Karin was the victim, whereas the first, Naruto was.


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#19 shisui

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Posted 26 April 2014 - 11:07 AM

Sasuke stabbing people is not for just these two. It's his finishing move for most of his confrontations. Kakashi too is this way and this is because of Chidori.

 

There is a big difference between these two situations however. Naruto went there knowing there would be a confrontation and he was aware that Sasuke wanted to kill him, it was his decision to stay and fight it out. But, when Karin was snatched by Danzo, she asked for Sasuke to help her and we all know what that help was.






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