KClaws_2

Naruto has been on a steady decline in sales since the war arc started. The final volume sales were a little over a million; by no means a flop, but not what they were probably aiming for. 

When the first volume of Boruto didn't break 200k, and continued to decline, that's a bad sign for the franchise moving forward. These numbers may be considered okay for a new monthly series, but for a franchise that was once a major cash-cow, I would've found these numbers unacceptable. 

There could be many factors, but if I had to choose:

1) They took too long to get the project off the ground, or didn't wait long enough

It could be either of those things. People WERE getting burned out by Naruto, and Boruto didn't titillate their interest.

On the other hand, SJ DID tease the new era project right before the end of Naruto. Let's face it, everyone was talking about how the series would end and who the children would be (both pro and anti). For better or worse, they moved forward with the Last, the Boruto movie came out afterwards....and for a whole year we heard nothing. That probably killed interest, being promised something but having nothing to show for it.

2) Didn't give off a good first impression

Obviously most were NOT a fan of the artstyle. Good or bad, it was a little bit too different to pass as one of Kishimoto's works. Sarada's outfit made no sense, and they only made it worse as well.

3) REHASH

Probably the biggest factor, and very stupid on their part. Fans got the Boruto movie animated, they didn't want to see it redone in manga format (especially with such a different artstyle). They didn't make a manga version of the Last, if nothing else because they probably realized they would only be showing off what they saw before in a less-appealing format. Add to the fact it's monthly and what should have felt like two hours instead felt like eternity.

4) We have a glimpse of the ending

Yeah, I'm not sure what they were thinking with this one. It felt like they were trying to do what the first episode of Shippuden did, but in the later that manga chapter had been out for a while. Here, NO ONE knows what the hell is going on, and the pacing of the story is not helping. 

5) The anime is more interesting

I probably shouldn't put this on the list since I really haven't cared to watch the anime, but I do know that the anime is having their own arcs and so far has not adapted any of the new material from the manga. I wouldn't say these arcs are "good" (apparently the last arc was especially bad) but at least they're animated and have some action going on. It's something at least.

6) Kishimoto is not involved

I think this is probably the main factor. Kishimoto said since the Boruto movie he wasn't going to do Naruto anymore, and I think many hardcore fans took this as a sign to get off. When a creator hands his work over to someone else, the response is anywhere from mixed to negative. 

The difference is that the genjutsu in the movie forced Naruto to act out of character in the Last and suddenly devote himself to Hinata based on stuff he already knew/was present for and suddenly he gave a damn.

In this one, the genjutsu is making them see memories the other did not know about. For Naruto, it was seeing the conversation with Ino, and I'm guessing for Sakura it was the forehead scene, so I wouldn't worry.

As for the grammar, I believe Tokai is Spanish, and English is not his first language.

It feels like you're adding a ton of context to that scene which didn't really exist. Like if it had been the Cell Games it makes perfect sense that she would disregard Goku. But that happened in the Saiyan saga. There was none of that bitterness over "Gohan having to fight to save the world when that's Goku's job",yet. He had been dead and it was Piccolo who decided that Gohan should fight. And Gohan wasn't strong at all last time she saw him. You're meant to laugh at her behavior, not award her mom points. Toriyama drew her as looking almost psychotic in that scene rather than actually worried about Gohan (and Goku, who had done nothing to merit her disregard yet)

 

And it is precisely that which I dislike about her character. She became a punchline when she was a normal person in DB.

Perhaps, but in my mind it makes sense that way. Even so, that just makes the case for her going to Gohan even stronger, because as you said, the last time she saw him he couldn't fight at all. 

And Chi-Chi was NEVER a normal person. Some kid made a promise to marry her when she was 11 or 12, and holds on to it. I don't know about you, but I think most would have forgotten it by the time they become adults.

For the record, I really don't care all that much about Chi-Chi, I just think of her as being there to give Goku kids. Another difference between her and Hinata: the staff doesn't build up Chi-Chi to be more than she actually is. 

 

What's funny about the bolded because I think fans are still in the "fandom"-land when multi and non-canon shipping is involved. Don't why Sakura is considered a "hoe" when all of that stuff is NOT even canon. Just plain crack.

 

I don't know about you guys (I'm going OOC mod for a second), but now-at-days, I'm viewing Hinata as that the "somehow sidepiece/side hoe that became main piece" with some unnecessary help and in not in a good way. And the man (Naruto) is/was dead set in her grasp ala target to get what SHE wants, (and fellas, there's a common statement which is true but it is too raunchy here to type, us men CAN get stupid when sex is the main topic). If this girl's a real person, I'm ready to go Black Twitter (which I don't use) on her. I know that this is a totally different view because this is the West but the East does get some influences since everything, everyone and their mama's business is up on the internet. With social media and reality TV the norm today, as I said before the East can be influential which may cause the whole fiasco with this franchise in regards to shipping.  And I think those fans has those views in their mindset while posting.

If Sakura is obsessed with Sasuke, how can she be a hoe? Do they even know what that word is SUPPOSED to mean? Heck, using that word literally DESTROYS their argument about Sakura being Sasuke-obsessed.

If Sakura really behaved like a so-called hoe, then yes, that WOULD be a problem. Except that's not the reality of the story. So congratulations Anti-NS. You use a slur incorrectly in context of canon to justify it, and in doing so denied it entirely.

It is mind boggling that the very thing they hate about Sakura is only that way BECAUSE they desired her to be that way. That's like feeding someone tons and tons of cakes and candies just so you can purposely make fun of them for being fat.

Or even worse when some people purposely set me up for failure just so they can say how bad I am and how better they are in comparison.

 

 

Whenever a company or media tries to "please the fans," they always end up in failure. When you do exactly what the fans demand you lose because some people will complain even if they get exactly what they wanted. Also, it is still a question I never quite get a good answer to. What was the point of Naruto the Last if NH already had enough support in the canon in the first place? They just can't answer this question which deep down they know that Naruto the Last and the Hinata worshiping really was baiting them to buy their crap. This is why NH has no real value to the point that even some NH fans don't want apart of it. The only way you can enjoy it is if you are so die-hard that this is all you think about.

It doesn't feel like a victory...it feels more like catering. You didn't earn it. Someone else gave it to you. This is why they pretend it is something it is not. This is why when the truth hits them they reject it entirely because they can't understand that they didn't earn that respect. People are just catering to you for your money.

As in the words of Pretty Woman
"Stores are never nice to people, they are nice to credit cards" and you see it on an everyday basis where people would never look at you twice, but as soon as they learn you have money or something of value that they want...all of a sudden they are super nice to you and want to suck on your feet. Heck, they believe Kishimoto really had an interest in NH which, if you really look at the interviews, shows that he didn't care for pairings at all. The only thing he was really adamant about is the dynamic relationship between Naruto and Sasuke.

As for the Anti-NSers, I always find it laughable when they pull the whole "Naruto and Sakura see each other as brother and sister or as teammates." So is that why Naruto asked Sakura on date...because he saw her as a sister.

Like these "reasons" are just downright insulting
"Naruto always loved Hinata. He just didn't know it yet."
"Naruto saw Sakura as a teammate and a sister."
"Naruto and Sakura are practically cousins and cousins should never date."

This reminds me of a discussion about Boruto and Salad. If Boruto is Naruto's kid would that make him the reincarnation of Asura? Would this make Salad the reincarnation of Indra? Does that mean that BorutoXSalad cannot happen cause they really would be technically brother and sister or is their something I am missing that somehow it doesn't apply to them?"

Someone once gave me the argument that "It makes sense that Naruto and Hinata got together because since Sakura has no clan traits, the goal is to make the strongest ninja of all time and mixing Uzumaki and Hyuga blood would achieve that."

OMG, this argument is just....where to begin? Okay, so first off....are you admitting that Naruto does not love Hinata truthfully and was just trying to find a means to create the strongest child? Does that mean that Naruto is just using Hinata as an experiment to cross breed to make the "perfect being?" Wow, I didn't know Naruto was a Nazi. Second, if this was the case, why didn't Sasuke try to procreate with Hinata instead? Kishimoto confirmed that if an Uchiha and a Hyuga crossbreed the child would have one byakugan and one Sharingan, so wouldn't Sasuke want to go for that as well?

Damn, this remaining fandom is just disgusting.

"[Shinachiku] NS kid would have no special abilities, so he would be a weak child ninja."

No BS this is an actual argument I got.

I nearly banged my head against the wall.
So we know that the original premise (before it was abandoned with prophecies and reincarnations) of Naruto was that people with no natural talent can succeed if they worked hard enough. Not only would this be totally emphasized with Shinachiku, but it put his son as the ultimate epitome of that premise. Shina would be so hard working that it would make Rock Lee look like a Tai-Bo video. (No offense to Rock Lee. He is my boy.)

But Shinachiku would have different talents. He could inherit his father's massive chakra reserve combined with his Mother's natural affinity for absolute chakra control. There would no jutsu outside of Kekkei Genkai that he could not master with a little hardwork.

Shinachiku would be like All-Might in a way in which he can master all-for-one so naturally. His natural talent is to be able to pick up anything without the use of copying techniques. He would be like Ikki Kurogane who doesn't have an overpowered Blazer, but uses their own opponents weakness against them.

Shinachiku would essentially be "Chivalry of a failed Ninja," which sounds pretty bad ass and FAR more entertaining idea than Boruto "I am so broken that the plot revolves around me" Uzumaki who is just handed everything on a silver platter because "He is the son of a Uzumaki and Hyuga."

Tell me that wouldn't be an awesome premise?
 

 

Which is a fine writing formula and easy to manage, but issues arrived when they tried to switch all of that from Sakura to Hinata. Many fans will say that he wanted to something different. He didn't. All they did was used the same formula, but tried to change the MF from one to the other.

It used to be that Sakura was the first girl Naruto knew and liked, but they tried to retcon it to Hinata was the first girl he met and liked and it makes no sense especially when you try to go back and read what is already there. It makes Naruto really look like a scumbag like he purposely ignored her.

Dragonball Super Broly movie is doing this now.
Since they retconed essentially Goku's origin story, it creates horrible retcons that kind of blow apart the already established canon tH``at Dragonball and Dragonball Z had

 

I was listening to Kory and Co-Host 3000 on Spill back in the day, when they were talking about how Sam Rami did not like Venom but was forced to put him in the movie. Co-Host then said this:

"And that is why you NEVER listen to the fans, because it never works! You wanted Venom, BOY, you got him!"

A lot of times fans don't have the story's best interest at heart. I mean, if studios looked at every single fan, they would be seeing some silly and downright weird kitten. Imagine if Sheishua decided Naruto got a harem, because there are fans who genuinely think Naruto deserves one for everything he's been through. What if they looked at those fans on DeviantArt who have a weight gain fetish? Or diaper fetish? They would be FOOLS to cater to those fans.

Sonic Boom recently made fun of the Sonic fanbase, with Sonic being tied down by an obsessive fan who forced him to listen to his fanfiction. I wish other companies would take jabs at their fans like that. 

Sadly, I think Kishimoto and others who worked for him were taken completely off guard by social media and the change in technology, and didn't take the time to realize that the posts they saw don't always reflect reality. 

As for NS vs NH child to continue the series, it's no difference to me. Naruto should NEVER have had a sequel to being with. If the theme was the next generation surpasses the Last, I feel like that's a story told. You give us a weak child, it will be hard to keep that theme going. You give us a strong one, then the process of keeping with this theme only becomes even more ridiculous. 

If a sequel is dependent on the protagonist being weak or strong, to me that there is already a red flag why you shouldn't make one.

I think it's also worth pointing out that no rules are given to the genetics of Naruto. In real-life, genetics and breeding is complicated. People with some desirable traits often carry the potential for serious problems in the future, And if you hyper focus on only one or two traits, you could actually make the offspring susceptible to problems. Many pure-bred dogs can have predisposed problems because most of the traits selected were for show, and came at the cost of better genetic health. Some Spaniels have a condition where if injured in the head, their brain gets disconnected. Deafness is prominent in Dalmations. English Bulldogs as we know them today can almost NEVER give birth without veterinary health because their giant jaws came at the price of smaller hips.

So, Kishi could have just easily written that a child with Uzumaki and Hyuuga DNA could be powerful, but is more likely to be born with Down Syndrome. 

And let's not forget that in DragonBall, Sayajin Human hybrids are often more powerful than many pure-blooded Sayajins, when by most fan-logic they shouldn't be.

Inuyasha is half demon, and is often portrayed as weaker than most high-level pure bred demons. Yet Dante is also by all means a Hanyou, and is touted as having the powers of both worlds. 

So yeah, looking at hybridization in fiction, this claim is kitten.

Isn't this what the Nazi believed? A genetic superior race was keen. Are we saying Naruto is a nazi?

OMG. NARUTO IS HITLER!!!!



Alucard:
"Well Well Well....I leave for a day and the Catholics are crusading while the Nazis are invading."

What, you didn't see that coming? He had blue eyes and blond hair (seriously, I've been joking about this for years).

I think the splits about the same. Unless things have changed, the last time I was into DBZ, people s*** on Chi-Chi a lot. She got a lot of crap for trying to keep Gohan away from the adventures and to keep him safe and people took the bits clearly meant for comedy seriously. Tsundere-esque characters are a bit more divisive here in the west than in Japan.

Chi-Chi is s*** on a lot by the fans. There's a youtube video titled "Chi-Chi doesn't care about Goku", showing the scene after Vegeta left Earth where Chi-Chi sprinted over Goku to hold Gohan. Uh, haven't you guys heard of Maternal Instinct? Plus, Goku was a grown man who CHOSE to get himself hurt. Gohan was maybe 6 years old at most at the time. Even accounting for how strong he became, every decent mother I know of would attend to their potentially injured children first. 

As for not letting Gohan be what he wanted to be...again, not getting the point of Gohan's character. Gohan would NEVER have become this badass Vegeta light if Chi-Chi demanded he train with Goku 6 days a week. They plainly show Gohan does not LIKE to fight. Yes, he had the potential to surpass his father up till Super, but he lacked his father's drive. 

I think that scene where Vegeta told Goku Sayajins are naturally attracted to fierce and strong-willed women was specifically written to shut those fans up. 

And you know how GokuXChi-Chi has affected DragonBall ever since it happened? As far as I can tell, not at all. Even with the anti-tsundere trend, it's still going strong with DBS Broly making a killing at the box office (at least compared to most anime films released in the US)

And Naru also is attacked by Love Hina fans. The series is still considered a classic. I don't think that would be the case if NO ONE liked her, because obviously some people do.

And these NH extremists like to claim that Naruto would have lost lots of money if Naruto ended up with Sakura. Then why wasn't it before that time? The anime and games had a lot of content that suggested NS prior to where we are now, and they were making money. As Namenesh had pointed out several times, the manga sales saw a steep decline AFTER Neji's death.

If the US was really the reason we got the ending we did, Sheishua messed up big time. Naruto is no more popular than most other typical anime released here, it's all a drop in the ocean. Had they went with NS, I'd imagine they would still have a fair share of the Western fanbase, plenty of the Asian fanbase and more than enough of their own fanbase.

In conclusion, shippping/endgame pairings have little to no impact on how a series performs. But a lot of terrible plot points surrounding the couples (character playing cupid, false love, etc) can.

 

This is NaruHina fans everytime they see James S Cassidy make a great point about Hinata.

It says a lot about them given the fact that THEY WON. I mean, have Kataang shippers been attacking Zutara shippers? I haven't certainly heard any such thing, and it wouldn't make sense. Their ship won, and they did the smart thing with dissenters: They ignored them. They were confident in their pairing and don't go out of their way to harass fans of the losing ship. Because in the end it would have been a waste of time.

Whenever an NH fan loses their cool over an opinion like ours, YEARS after the ending, it just tells me they know we're right. 

 
I always find it Hilarious that the common mentality of these days is if you are an actual fan of something you can NEVER admit if it has flaws. It must be  perfect in your eyes and devoid of anything but flawlessness. That admitting a flaw of something is a personal attack on that thing and indrectly attacking fans' worth of their love for that thing. It's Funny, really funny.

It's really ridiculous. As the saying goes, "Nobody or Nothing is Perfect". Quite frankly, it would be a very boring world if everything WAS perfect, and what's perfect in one person's eyes is bad in another's. You CAN like something despite it's flaws, and you can dislike something even if it has a lot of good qualities. 

I've also been thinking of another excuse that bothers me regarding the pairings: Using other series' to justify what happened in Naruto.

DragonBall is usually the prime example, claiming that Kishimoto was inspired by VegetaxBulma (not realizing he hated DragonBall Freiza saga and thereafter), and trying to compare Chi-Chi to Hinata (uh, NO).

They've also claimed Naruto and Sakura's reunion at the beginning of Part 2 was based off of when Goku reunited with his friends as an adult, pointing to how Bulma commented on how handsome Goku had become.

Uh, was it ever hinted that Goku had a crush on Bulma? NO. Was it teased after the reunion how Bulma had budding feelings for Goku? NO. Was Bulma ever compared to Goku's mother? Well, if she was, it wasn't until WELL AFTER the two were married to DIFFERENT PEOPLE. Did Toriyama drag out the romantic subplot to mislead his readers that Goku would marry Bulma? Nope, same arc he got him hooked up to Chi-Chi. 

These fans seem to think of Naruto as a remake of DragonBall, but the truth is it has VERY LITTLE in common with it. Kishimoto was mainly inspired by the fights (or so he claims). I don't think romance ever played a part in that, and he was inspired by other series as well. 

Some have gone as far to claim GCC and VB are parallels to NH and SS, without realizing we drew parallels to characters that existed IN THE SAME SERIES.

Another one that irks me is using Sonic characters. They highlight Tails as Naruto (multi-tailed fox) Shadow as Sasuke (anti-hero) and Amy Rose as Sakura (pink?) and somehow use this to justify the endgame pairings.

Except one problem: NO ONE IS HOOKED UP WITH ANYONE IN THE OFFICIAL SONIC CANON, AND SEGA WANTS TO KEEP IT THAT WAY. What's more, Tails doesn't like Amy, Shadow doesn't like Amy, and Amy CLEARLY HAS THE HOTS FOR SONIC!

The closest you'll get to a Sonic character hooking up with anyone is in the Archie Comics, and in those Sonic only marries Sally in alternate timelines as a compromise to Sega so that he remains single in the main timeline (before they rebooted it).

It makes me wonder if NaruSaku happened, would the ending have seen the backlash it did? I think so on everything except the couples.

Eh, shippers seem to complain no matter what. Given the fanaticism o the NH fanbase, I'm sure they would have complained and the internet would have blown up on how bad the ending was. 

Perhaps the difference would be that all the plot points aside from the shipping we've been criticizing here would be a hot topic elsewhere (assuming Kishimoto did everything else the same, though I doubt we would have gotten a NS version of the Last, at least not so soon after the ending).

While I don't think it would have the extreme shipping backlash, I think the double standard would still have been loud and and active.

 

Because Naruto's with Hinata, all those fans have happily forgotten the fact that Naruto didn't succeed at ANY of his goals. It feels like a happy ending to them, even though it really isn't for the characters.

 

But if he were with Sakura, then all Naruto's failures and shortcomings would just be added to the reasons why Sakura is so wrong for him. Basically, she would be getting blamed for Naruto's failure to bring Sasuke home, failure to see any real punishment and failure to become Kage within the space of the manga. And any of the dumb things Naruto did aftwerwards (with Hinata and Boruto), would obviously be all Sakura's fault because she's a terrible wife/mother/human/shinobi/etc. Then NH fans would just hate Sakura more, imagining how perfect life would have been with an NaruHina ending. I just don't see a way that Sakura wins. Which sucks.

 

And yeah - the fact that they had to retcon a whole series makes it glaringly obvious how the story should have ended.

 

I agree - I always though it would be Sasuke who would die. Or at the very least become the new 'Jiraiya' traveling monk figure — a powerful, fascinating old friend of theirs whose visits to Konoha always meant bad news. But one who lives so far outside of the realm of Konoha's day-to-day that he's nearly forgotten about for half the series. Literally, like Jiraiya. And which is practically the same as being dead - lol.

 

And yes, you point out just more reasons why Hinata is a waste of space in the story, at NO POINT does she evolve. Not even the death of her beloved cousin could make her change. She doesn't rise up and fill the space left by him in their clan. Her only ambition is to stand beside Naruto and hold his hand. Which is the same as it was before Neji died. 

 

I know people say she had a character evolution in part one, where she stood up to Neji and fought him, all because Naruto inspired her. And yes, it's true. She did rise up there. But I'm not sure it took. Because in the end, she is still completely focused on Naruto. She can't see or do anything for anyone else. Sakura told her to focus on the enemy...but in the end, we know that Hinata never does. So is it a valid character evolution if the character doesn't change in the end?

 

Depressingly, I feel sorta the same way about Sakura. Except where Hinata never truly evolved, I feel like Sakura's evolution was taken away from her. She ended up with Sasuke, in spite of everything she said, did or felt for Naruto. 

Because of these issues in Boruto, some people said it was good NS didn't become canon BECAUSE it would only make our ship look bad. Which is very ironic when considering they're trying to make Hinata a pseudo Sakura, and it seems vice versa for Sakura. 

I remember looking at a Youtube video about "What if Naruto married Sakura?" (Not Kryptonian Sayajin's). In the comments, one claimed that Naruto would be miserable, hate his life and avoid his kids. And one replied:

THAT'S THE CANON ENDING

 

 

Sasuke dying would have made sense, sure. At the very least, he should be the most wanted man in the world, Vash the Stampede style. Once you've reached the point where a buncha Kage's are saying "this guy's a major problem, we're going to need to take care of this" you can't really step that back. But I never once thought it would happen.

 

The writing in Naruto was... I don't necessarily want to say predictable, because if you know enough about stories and how to properly tell them, or if you've even just read enough stories, you can tell where a lot of them are going to go. But it definitely fell into patterns. The manga never really liked to kill anyone, even when it would have made sense, unless the character was unimportant. Even in the case of the latter - someone like Neji - it might pull back, only to do it much later when all the emotional impact it might have had would have been gone. Given how it had been admitted that Sasuke was the favorite character of the author and how the entire manga hinged on "redeeming Sasuke" it was clear even early in Part 2 there was no way he bit the dust. I'd always figured he was going to get a pardon when Naruto became Hokage even if it made no sense for anyone to accept that - I guess it was a curveball that it ended up being Kakashi - though I hadn't guessed the f***ery that would come. I expected about what you'd expect for a happy ending; Naruto becomes Hokage before the end, wins Sakuras heart (probably before the end, but then, Shönen loves to leave pairing stuff for the end), defeats Sasuke and drags him home to answer for what he's done, maybe they make peace, then pardons him or whatever and has him confined to the village under basic house arrest (because even if Konoha pardons him why the hell would the other nations?)

It was a little iffy for me how his redemption was going to play out. In the first half of Part 2, he seemed to be more of an anti-hero than a downright villain, as he was solely focused on Itachi and more often than not took out other villains. It seemed he would only kill any Konoha ninja if they approached him (and it never came to that). That, and it seemed Naruto and Sakura were trying to avoid having to follow the law against nuke-nin. 

Attacking Killer Bee...yeah, he caused problems for Konoha politically. Don't think that alone would have justified the story killing him.

Kage Summit, he should been in jail at least. He definitely killed those Samurai, and he attempted to kill the Kage just to get to Danzo.

And when he did get Danzo, he sacrificed Karin to do it (yeah, she lived, but still). After that he had an episode of temporary insanity where he was about to kill Kakashi and Sakura on a whim. 

I think that was where Kishimoto wrote himself into a corner. He knew he was going to have Naruto and Sasuke fight again, but how was he going to redeem Sasuke through that? Either Naruto would have to truly treat him as an enemy, or Sasuke would have to team up with him to fight off a greater evil to strengthen "their bond". He went with the later, but whether it was due to the pacing of the War Arc or him just not caring, Sasuke still came off as evil at this point. Near the end when he stated he would kill the kage to turn the world against him, realistically there was no saving him. They were trying to play him off as Trieze Kushrenada or Lelouch Vi Britannia, someone who saves the world by creating a horrible tragedy that unites it and goes down as the monster of history. That would have never worked for Sasuke though, as he lacked the charisma of those two and he didn't suffer because of the ninja system, he suffered because his clan his kittened up.

Adding to that the whole mess with the Uchiha history and blaming their aggression on love. Kishimoto was trying to have come off as "it's not their fault". Instead he painted them as a clan that had absolutely no control over their impulses and that every Uchiha born would snap at some point. That's not a sympathetic backstory, that's a justification to kill Sasuke.

Even now, it feels like he doesn't give a damn about anything. He's just there. And by there I mean out there, not in Konoha. Pro-enders have sometimes argued that he either can't come home to see his family or that he didn't want to drag them into his darkness. On the first point, NO. Naruto wondered why he didn't see his family more often, and Ino waved to him fondly like nothing ever happened. Besides, when he is there he's just walking the streets instead of sulking about. Clearly Konoha has no problem with him being there.

As for the second point...should have thought of that BEFORE he decided to have a family. 

Redemption arcs have to be long and hard for characters. They need to realize their mistakes, struggle to make things right and learn to live with the consequences of that which they cannot change. Sasuke did none of them. He just got his arm blown off and called it quits. 

Yeah, technically, but it is hard to keep saying "It is a seinen" when the manga is published by Shonen Jump, it advertises other Shonen Jump manga (including Boruto) in the volumes at the back pages, and Shonen Jump makes sure you know they own it.

It is basically a Shonen in everything, but name.

To me, it is them basically saying "If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and swims like a duck.....then it must be a goose." The lines have been blurring lately on what constitutes a Shonen in my eyes mostly because Naruto has some pretty graphic and horrible things in the story that I think would push it up to a Seinen level. At times, One Punch Man is more tame than Naruto, I would argue.

I don't know what really distinguishes a Shonen from some Seinen anymore and I could make arguments.
 

Eh, there's a lot of overlap between the two from what I observe. I'm guessing it's context that matters. 

Most shonen aren't THAT violent. When things like limbs get severed it's usually treated as a rare occurrence, and how graphic the damage is can be minimized. Seinen seems to take it to another level on purpose. The violence in shonen might push the boundries at times, but it doesn't normalize it. Seinen seems to do so and use that to show how dark their show is.

If there's fanservice, in shonen it's usually obscured to a degree, with little mention of direct sex. Again, Seinen seems to be more graphic in this regard, often showing as close to full nudity as possible and showing intimate scenes.

Again, this is the general trend I tend to see between the two, but as with anything many authors will push the boundaries when they can. I acknowledge I could be very wrong and there is probably lots of manga that would show otherwise.

In the case of One Punch Man, I think it's because it makes fun of the tropes of shonen and I guess they think it requires a mature audience to get it. Just my opinion.

The thing that annoys me most about the Sakura hitting Naruto argument is that other Tsundere type characters are not held to that same standard. Kayko hitting Yusuke? Forgot about that. Kagome's sits? It's funny. Kaoru beating Kenshin with a boken? Luv. Some at least will attack other tusnderes, but for some reason Sakura is put up as the poster child of abusive tsunderes when there have been far worse. 

Another argument that does them no favors is that if Hinata didn't get with Naruto, she would be lonely and might even kill herself.

Uh, that's not the trait of an endearing character. That is someone in need of serious psychotherapy.

Another: "Hinata loved him first, so Naruto HAS to return his feelings!"

So, wouldn't that mean Sakura had to return Naruto's feelings because he loved her first 

Granted, they'd probably refer to that scene in the Last, but still it's a stupid reason.

Another one: Hinata is super strong! Imagine how powerful their children could become!

Yes, I remember as clear as day when Hinata whooped Neji's a-oh, wait a minute! Neji trounced her!

But still, Hiashi recognized her as a prodi-No, she wasn't! Hiashi was VERY disappointed with her!

Still, it was incredible when she held her own against Sasori...No wait, that was Sakura, never mind!

But how about the time she destroyed the training field...oh wait. Sakura again.

But she showed incredible strenght against Pain...No she didn't, She was one-hit KO'd.

But in the anime, she kept taking hits...Taking hits doesn't mean jack if you don't land a deciding blow.

Oh, but how about the time she figured out the abilities of the White Zet-Sakura again, keep trying.

But Boruto and Naruto how scary she gets when she's angry!...Okay...then why not get with Sakura?

Really, these "fans" treat these two like their cattle they need to breed. They wanted OP children, they got them, with asinine writing to boot. And how come Hinata is given credit for all these feats when canon did nothing to support them? Why are all these great achievements off-screen? It reminds me when Nostalgia Critic did that Lex Luthor scene from BvS:

(Lex Luthor describes all he did in the movie) And the best part of it all, is that I did it ALL OFF-SCREEN, SO NOT EVEN I KNOW HOW I DID ALL THIS IMPOSSIBLE kitten!

Edit: To add even more fuel to the fire...if Sakura always thinks Naruto is a loser in their eyes and pushed Hinata to be with Naruto...then does that mean she thought Hinata was a loser too?

"Losers should only marry losers."
-Proending fandom

Put it to print because proenders think Hinata and Naruto are losers and are pathetic.
 

I recall when all those other mangaka made their own illustrations to "celebrate" the end of Naruto, one had a picture of the Konoha Eleven running up triumphantly...while Naruto and Hinata tripped and fell over into the dirt.

Not only does this support your theory, but it's a perfect metaphor for how Naruto was NEVER the star of his own manga. He got left in the dust by everyone else (though I wouldn't say any of them came out good), and settled for someone at his level rather than getting back up.

ACE VENTURA!

Anyway, if Hinata dies, I hope it's humiliating, because that will make the laughing that much harder.

I think Megumi Takodoro from Food Wars is a good example of what Hinata SHOULD HAVE BEEN. Yes, Megumi had feelings for Soma, but they were not her defining motivation. She had real friends with the rest of the Polar Star Dormitory, her family was what really drove her, and she actually HAD SKILLS. While she's very much on the low side in terms of victories, she faced off against skilled opponents and came close each time. Even Erina respects and recognizes her skills.

Hinata, on the other hand, doesn't seem to hang out with anyone, her team just drags her along. Despite what SP tries to tell us, she clearly doesn't give a damn about her family. Her skills are average at best, and it's nothing we haven't seen and done better from Neji. And the only reason other people respect her in the series is because the current plot demands it. 

That's the thing. This wasn't on a Naruto site. This was one a One-Punch Man about pairings and whether or not they should have happen. I voted against confirmed pairings and just let the fans make their own ideas, but if I had to choose I would go with SaitamaxFubuki. It is still the one that would work the best and it turned into an argument about the Naruto pairings because they said Saitama should be with Tornado because it is like SasuSaku.

If there is one thing I hated above all else after this pairing debacle is that this gave fans who like the canon pairings to demand and argue that other couples be canon because it reminds them of NH/SS. There had been a debate in Food Wars that Megumi should end up with Soma for a while, because she was so nice and tried so hard. I even saw one comment saying "If we could make it happen with Naruto, why not here?" Not only do they not take the author's preference into consideration, but they think it's okay to turn a story into a popularity contest (and admit that's what happened to Naruto). 

My response: Shut up, let the author do what he or she wants, and then make a judgement.

I don't believe Naruto's problems stem from the pairings. It stems from it becoming a product, something for the company to milk dry. This problem is rooted as early as the Chunin arc of the story... hell, probably since it's conception as there was a lot of comments by the editor to make it sell. Naruto was designed to be popular, case closed, and because of that it could never tell the story it needed to tell. Instead it told the story the people publishing it thought the audience wanted.

Oh yeah, that was very much the problem in the beginning, especially when you consider the pilot didn't even have ninjas in them, or any of the characters that would appear later. A product like that is bound to crash and burn eventually. For most it started around the War Arc, but I held out (misplaced) hope. I guess I was kind of like Homer when Lisa sent his pork roast down the street and eventually fly into the sky

"It's still good, it's still good!"

Okay... Heroin?

Based on what I know about drugs (not personal experience, btw), I think Heroin perfectly describes NH. Does anyone remember that footage from when those cops pulled over a couple who OD'd on heroin, and were practically comatose? That's NH to me in a nutshell.

If it was meth, the two would be fighting all the time and throwing things at each other, and driving tanks all over Konoha (kind of like that guy in San Diego years ago).

SS on the other hand is PCP. A drug so bad (random defacation, biting extremities off and streaking, among other things) that I wonder how it was sold to you in the first place.

 

If it's not forty total, it's not too much more. Which is what always made it astonishing to me that she was as popular as she was. She's never around. And, I mean, you could say it was just the large boobs - I've seen people claim that - but I've known women who liked both her and the NaruHina pairing. I'm still friends with one (though she's admitted to me in the past that by the end she was only reading the series because of sunk cost and wasn't even happy with the ending or how her pairing was canonized). What was the appeal? The cuteness? The loyalty? Some desire to see the nice girl win over the tsundere for once? Was the absence of character the appeal, since it allows the reader to decide most of their personality for themselves?

 

Everybody complains about shallow characters from time to time, but Hinata's one of a few that proves you don't need depth to be crazy popular. She had about as much character depth as a puddle.

I will never understand her popularity. I understand the appeal of her POTENTIAL, but potential means diddly squat if you don't show results. It's like someone was told they had great potential as an MMA figher, but instead of training and putting in the effort, they bribe the judges to give them the belt. 

I still don't understand why she's viewed as this sexual figure. There are so many other anime out there where the girls are curvier, show more skin and have actual personalities (even bad ones are better than whatever Hinata has going for her).

They see this in Hinata:

Before the ending, I saw this:

No, I didn't forget to post the image, that space literally represents how I saw Hinata back then.

But AFTER the ending:

 

I think a major part of it was also something a lot of anime suffered from at the time. Fanfiction was a lot more common and people made crap up. They crap they made up ended up being passed around as canon. That's how we end up with stuff like Ranma Saotome's mother being obsessed with having grandchildren, Inuyasha being obsessed with ramen or Sailor Moon becomes a dictator that the world is forced to obey through mind control. Naruto was hit pretty hard by this with an evil village council making Naruto's life a living hell, being assaulted by the villagers over Kyuubi, or (my favorite) Naruto is actually super skilled but had his education tampered with/never showed off his true abilities because he thought everyone would be afraid of him.

 

Not to mention how an anime adaptation can vastly change characters. And with watching anime online being far more difficult (hell, I remember downloading a 40mb volume of manga being a major hassle over dialup. I remember the nights leaving my PC on to do so, only to find my connection was lost while I was asleep), if something seemed off you could just pass it off as "it's like this in the anime," and that's not even counting how fan translations themselves could be faulty or full-on weeb subs. I mean, check this out.

 

http://ranmarelated....ween-manga.html

 

People made Naruto's life worse than it actually was, and then made Hinata look better. Hell, people would go out of their way to make Part 1 Sakura look more annoying, Sasuke far more egotistical while Kakashi would fawn over his prized student. As such, the North American communities views on canon ended up being distorted.

 

Then there's how the anime and some games do glorify Hinata. I remember hearing about this one mission where Sai hears the rest of the girls bad mouthing Naruto only to conclude Hinata's an angel.

 

This happened when Naruto was at the height of it's popularity,

Really? I remember back then that fanfiction was regularly torn to shreds by fandoms all over. Only recently has fanfiction come to some attention with many authors confessing they do fanfiction in their spare time and...FiftyShades (Why? WHY!?)

Still, with Naruto fans have a habit of filling in the blanks with their own head canons. 

I think the fillers would be more to blame, as most tried to explain the different time skips and give canon-in-training characters some more time in the spotlight. They even added extra to The Last period, making the NH wedding the final episode and not bothering to animate chapter 700.

So. Uhh. I didn't bring this up before, but... Salad. They really named a character that? Seriously?

From what I heard, when coming up names, Kishimoto claimed he was hungry.

Boruto here has also been called Buritto to make them match.

 

I missed a lot of things dude. But those are pretty stupid reasons. Was that implied, though? That Sarada was supposed to be Sasuke and Karins kid originally? Or is that just speculation based on her appearance?

 

 

That's the first thing that comes to mind for me. A kid holding the parents together does not imply a healthy marriage, as if everything else didn't already do that. Which makes it doubly sad. He seems to hang around because of the kid, but isn't even a good father.

 

I said it before, but dude turned out to be someone I thought he wasn't.

There is a theory some believe that Boruto was originally supposed to be a NaruSaku child and Sarada a SasuKar child, and for some reason Kishimoto changed their parentage at the last second.

With Boruto, his hair was shaped like a flower, and his jacket has PINK highlights. 

With Sarada, well I guess the Gaiden pretty much speaks for itself.

Some clarification on the Gaiden, Suigestsu THOUGHT the umbilical cord was Karin's, and when comparing it to Sarada's saliva, got a match. However, as Karin explained, the umbilical cord was Sarada's to begin with, Both she and Sakura traveled together looking for Sasuke when Sakura was pregnant with their child, and at some point Sakura went into labor during this search. Karin delivered the baby, and Sakura let her keep the cord (again, despite it being the custom the mother keeps the cord). Karin also gives Sakura some glasses for Sarada...how she knew Sarada would need corrective lenses growing up...same answer as that Tootsie Pop question.

Either way, I don't really need to "prove" Karin is Sarada's mother. At the end of the day, Sakura and Sasuke's relationship is kitten, Sasuke's a kitten husband and father, and the fact that this was a plot considered for a shonen obvioius is pure dog kitten (heh, that's actualy kinda funny). So it's still a no-go for SasuKar shippers in the end.

So...they're TIMING their dates? What the hell can you do with two and a half minutes? It wouldn't surprise me if Sasuke is not only fast in the battlefield.

I think part of the problem when it comes to North American fans is one I've seen a bit; they honestly forget that it's not made for them and that popular styles, tropes and character types in Japan play into things like sense of humor over there. I see "abuse" brought up a lot in Anime, usually with heroines like Sakura, because they occasionally hit the male main character for being a dumbass, while the other girls an angel because she doesn't do that. Completely forgetting it's slapstick comedy not meant to be taken seriously at all and Japan loves that sort of thing. It's fiction and it exaggerates character tics. Unless it's Love Hina - which did eventually veer into uncomfortable territory with how often it happened - or something like Evangelions Asuka, which was deliberately meant to show how behavior like that in a more realistic setting would send serious mixed messages and is the sign of a screwed up person, it's not serious violence or meant to be taken seriously.

 

 

See... was NaruHina even popular outside the US?

 

It's been YEARS, so I can't remember, but did we ever find out what the Japanese thought of the pairings? Because realistically, they matter a lot more than we do. Anime and manga are popular here now, but it's still made to be consumed by a Japanese audience and a lot of them care more about that than over here. Wasn't Kishimoto shocked to find out, only a couple years before the end, it was popular over here?

 

I know SasuSaku and NaruHina were popular over here, but it might just be assumption that it was all "listening to one group of fans over the other". The behind the scenes stuff gleaned from interviews I've heard since poking around here again sound like a Benny Hill routine. There's also the possibility that maybe they just genuinely didn't care when it came to the pairings and just went with whatever. It's not like any of the ones chosen had solid foundation.

 

I remember browsing Love HIna fanfiction back in the days. Most everyone wanted Keitaro to be paired with Motoko or Shinobu because Naru was a "Tsundere kitten!" It just feels really weird to me to be into a series that contained a trope that would trigger you so bad. If I felt tsundere characters were immoral or just painful to watch, I would simply not look at the series. Just having that element should be a sign it's not for you. Some will argue back "Well, if it was a boy hitting a girl, you would call it abuse!" While I might find such a thing disturbing, I would at least recognize it's intended as a comedic effect.

As for whether NH and SS were popular in Japan, well...SS was. Good girl changes bad boy trope is a guilty pleasure for many girls I guess, but I don't think there was a huge outcry to make it canon.

NH I really haven't heard much about it Japan. Hinata otakus, but I don't think there was a big war like here in the US. 

Shortly after the Last, a Top 10 list sampled from random people in Japan came out with couples that should break up (or just ones they didn't like). NaruHina made the 10th spot, and SasuSaku made the 6th. Granted, it wasn't a perfectly scientific poll (and I believe many pointed out that many of those who voted seemed to be yaoi fans), but it was still interesting to note.

Seriously they put Sakura, Lucy and many others, while Hinata is not there. She should be a kittening definition of a what USELESS means! sigh......

 

WatchMojo is full of kitten. I know that seems like a petty thing to say just because you don't agree with a list, but they do have a pattern of not thinking things through.

In their Top 10 Gundams list, they stated they would count ONLY Gundams. I think Turn X, which is NOT a Gundam, made number 9

In their Top 10 anime assassins, Kenshin took number 2. Now, yes, he was an assassin in the past. But that's not a reflection of what he was in the main storyline. I feel there should have been a huge discrepancy there.

And they made a Top 10 Naruto characters list. Sakura made number 6 or 5, while Hinata only got an honorable mention. I remember a lot of anime reviewers crying fowl at that list because of that back then. So, seeing them now put her on a useless list reeks SUSPICION.

Sadly, a lot of "men" here in the US would rather have that out-of-fashion, mindless, soulless, ambition-less, subservient female sex doll rather than an equal partner in an actual relationship. Their "manhood" demands they be the one in charge and be served on hand and foot by the female while still being allowed to do as he pleases, including relationships with other females so they can "ensure their procreation" and other BS like that.

Yeah, this is a bit of a disturbing trend. They bash the idea of feminism without realizing that this ideology can be interpreted many ways like religion. A movie or series gets a female lead, the "SJWS" are taking over! They freaked out over Wonder Woman back then, and if a female gets so much as a moment they freak out. Even if many female led movies are bad, they act like it's because they star women, NOT because of a bad story, bad acting, etc. Or in some cases, suddenly act like they actually cared about a property before (She-Ra) Hell, if a female character has one measly flaw they denounce her as a bad character. 

Honestly, it feels like a fad and characters like Sakura unfortunately get caught in it.

While I agree, I truly believe there was nothing Kishi could do to make Sakura be liked by the people who hated her.

Apart from maybe changing her entire appearance and her behavior as well, thus making her into someone else. Basically making her into a Hinata is where I'm going with it. Maybe that would've had the effect of them liking her. And even that's a maybe since there was already Hinata.

That's my point. There were going to be haters no matter what. Kishi should have recognized that and simply doubled down on improving Sakura. The vocal fans would complain, but real fans would have praised her development and the haters would just go on off to their own clique, and everything would be fine.

Wait. You used to watch Spill too?

Yup, fun times. Though I miss their animated caricatures, I still enjoy seeing Korey and Leon Martin talking about random stuff. Also good to see how far Carlye Cargil has come.

 

That's just a silly notion in general and I don't know why anyone latches on to it. Because it's admitting that a work, one they'd claim victory in regard to a part of it, is essentially shallow and without merit. If you're making something just to "troll" your audience, it's probably more because you have absolutely nothing to say; a good example are those controversy generator games that go super edgy dark and violent and sick to get eyeballs and kick up a fuss only for it to have no real value. it's something you'd expect out of a total hack. Not exactly flattering to the guy they seem to want to prop up and excuse. In fact, it's probably worse than the criticisms. And also makes their "victory" meaningless.

 

Besides which, no author putting a decade plus into an action adventure series that saw a startling amount of success is going to "troll" their audience. Especially not for something like pairings, which were so minor to the series that we found out in the end no real thought had been put into them. After all, Naruto's not romance genre by a long shot. Authors usually have something to say or at least an idea of what they want to do. Even things with a clear "take that" to the audience - Evangelion springs to mind - is still trying to say something.

If most everything Kishi put in was to troll the audience, then he really had no clue what he was doing. There comes a point where you have to stop misleading your audience and just tell your story. At least other stories with twists TRY to explain themselves.

The thing with hating Sakura is simple: She got in the way of their ship, and simply chose to hate her no matter what. As someone mentioned, people like Sawyer claim Sakura reminds them of the girls that friendzoned them in highschool...if you're a 20+ year old dude and are still holding a grudge over that, that's probably why.

Also, when your story is targeted at a younger audience, you're going to have a vocal segment that hates one aspect of your story, but if you actually take the time to read what they say, you can tell they have no idea what they're talking about. 

The easy thing for Kishimoto to have done was to prove everyone wrong about Sakura. Have her fight regularly, show her in a better light than Hinata (which he kind of has been doing) and just have her be willing to fight against, if not get outright over Sasuke. During the first part of Shippuden, the haters were silent. Even they had to admit they looked forward to seeing her abilities, but Kishi's mishandling her in the war arc permanently damaged her in the eyes of many.

A few days ago I got bored, and ended up reading a few Naruto character sheets on TV tropes. I eventually gave into curiosity and wanted to see what they'd said about the mangaka Kishimoto.

 

Here, let me summaries almost all of it in a single sentence: "Hinata was always the love interest as well as his favorite character, he always hated Sakura who he was forced to create, she was never going to be the love interest, and anyone that thinks that just fell for his trolling."

 

You know, from even an objective stand point, it is very sad that's all they have to say about him; for the most part. I looked at a few other mangaka pages, they in general talk about more then just one thing, and even if there was a controversy it doesn't consume the entire page liked it did with kishi's.

At least with the Naruto wiki, they TRY to write professionally and appear unbiased. Even I can't blame them; their job is to give the facts in regard to the current canon, regardless of whether or not they feel the story's gone off the rails.

These people seem to like the idea of Kishimoto being a master troll, without realizing they are actually damaging his reputation in claiming that. Even bad writers are at least genuinely trying to make a story. If we take there word for this, Kishimoto only wasted everyone's time. In addition to wasting our time, he wasted the NH fans' time. Instead of developing the relationship clearly so no one would cry foul, he instead gave us no reason to like NH in the first place.

 

I think it's part of a bigger cultural issue where young people are no longer being challenged, leaving to a lack of critical thinking skills in the name of preserving their "feelings" and "emotional wellbeing." They're not being taught how to think, period, and they can't stand it when things don't go their way.

It's nothing new. Young people see something they like, they get butt hurt when they find a critical opinion. It's so important to them to feel validated they will attack anyone who thinks otherwise. Unfortunately, some carry this attitude well into adulthood. 

I remember when Korey from Spill/Double Toasted once did a show, bringing up how their fans were going "Man, I agreed with you up until this point", to which he shouted "Yes, because WE'RE TWO DIFFERENT PEOPLE!"

 

Wait, really? I haven't paid attention to a single thing regarding Naruto in years, so I've missed all this. Like, he legitimately admits he had no idea what he was doing, was just out to make a popular franchise and just did whatever the editors said?

 

Because if that's legit and it's not just being assumed that's what happened, that honestly explains literally everything, including the fact the kittening series couldn't decide on an actual antagonist to save its life.

I think I should probably clarifiy this. This is based off an interview with Kishimoto that took place shortly after the Boruto movie was released. I believe it got into the creative process, and Kishimoto first mentioned the pilot, where Naruto was an old man making ramen (Kyuubi was in it in some capacity); Yahigi thought it was dumb and put in the ninja, therefore the very premise of Naruto was never his idea. He went on about how originally it would have just been Naruto and Kakashi; Yahigi again suggested a rival (Sasuke) and a love interest (Sakura...or also Sasuke, depending on how you view things). Kishimoto originally wanted several small arcs with missions (I will agree with him on this one), but Yahigi again suggested the chunin exam arc to up the popularity and add several new characters at once. Kishimoto also admitted having trouble coming up with a villain, and guess whose idea it was to put in Orochimaru? Here's a hint: it starts with a Y. He also suggested Jiraya, and I assume Tsunade, to the series. The timeskip was also his idea.

So, I won't say it was a full list of "his idea, not mine", but when you see that pattern, it can't be a coincidence.

The revelation from this interview hurt me a lot more than the outcome of the canon pairings. It's one thing when a writer makes a kitten ending to a series, but it's another when you learn nothing about the series that made it special was even their idea. As you said, it was a house of cards that was going to fall at any time. 

It also explains why we haven't heard from his Sci-Fi manga. None of the other editors were as generous as Yahigi; most may suggest ways tot make the story better or more marketable, but Yahigi practically wrote the damn thing for a long time. From what I understand, Kishimoto pitched several series during the war arc, but none were picked up. 

He doesn't have the excuse of being too busy with Boruto. The current creative team just asks him "Is this okay?" and he approves it or not. He gave the current artist full reign on Sarada's...interesting clothes, and it's Ikemoto who oversees the anime. It feels like he's not doing his own thing right now because he literally can't find work anywhere else. 

Meanwhile, you have Hiro Mashima who finished Fairy Tail only a year ago. While some may have been disappointed by the ending, it was certainly less controversial than Naruto's was. He's currently working on Eden's Zero, AND he's overseeing several Fairy Tail spin-offs.

RulesofNature said this somewhere before, but given his time on Naruto, Kishimoto should be considered a veteran in the industry, not some new author who may or may not pan out; his lack of new work since the end of Naruto seems like a red flag that something went wrong with his planned project.

 

Naruto the Last is basically Hinata replacing Kushina as Naruto's mother, isn't it? Would explain her being upset at the scarf, or him being guilt tripped into doing what Hinata wants.

There was a mock review on Tumblr (a kind of Q&A) about the Last, and around the genjutsu scene the guy mentions that they make Sakura like Kushina by making her more of a mother figure to Naruto instead of the girlfriend Kushina wanted him to find.