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#50741 Phantom_999

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Posted 24 August 2019 - 06:50 PM

Love triangle are never needed and bring nothing to the story.


Definitely not the way they are written. For a love triangle to be meaningful or at least to have a purpose in the story it is to to keep fans guessing which love interest a character will end up. It is NOT character a, their love interest which is pratically destined to be with them at the creator of the story's bias and that the audience can see it happening from a mile away, and the hapless third parties that are waiting to be dumped/rejected at the opportune moment. such love triangles are a waste of time and pointless. Love triangles must be equal, as jak said and fair. meaning feelings must be neutral, characters must have proper development and bonds with each other and there must be no particular bias, so that when a couple happens it is satisfying to see


Edited by Phantom_999, 28 August 2019 - 11:31 PM.

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#50742 jak123

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Posted 24 August 2019 - 08:07 PM

 

After Naruto and Korra I'm put off Love Triangles

LT is both of those stories were done absolutely terribly.

 

Love triangle are never needed and bring nothing to the story.

I disagree. They bring drama and if done correctly, the couple involved usually comes out stronger for it.



#50743 VanitasDS76491

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Posted 25 August 2019 - 01:29 AM

LT is both of those stories were done absolutely terribly.
 

I disagree. They bring drama and if done correctly, the couple involved usually comes out stronger for it.

Yes if done right.

#50744 HalfDemonInuyasha

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Posted 25 August 2019 - 01:50 AM

Ultimately, the writing caused these love triangles to be straight up absurd and unbelievable, and practically dictated itself that Sasuke and Hinata are no goes as far as being love interests are concerned. That is why no one except for the most hardcore of fanatics could understand much less get behind NaruHina and SasuSaku becoming official

And it's not even that they "understand" them so much as just having their own obsessiveness in them being together for whatever reason; no different from child Sakura's fangirl crush on Sasuke or Hinatatas' obsession over Naruto. Neither one actually "understands" the object of their obsession and mostly just want to be with them for shallow, selfish reasons.
 

 

Definitely not the way they are written. For a love triangle to be meaningful or at least to have a purpose in the story it is to to keep fans guessing which love interest a character will end up. It is NOT character a, their love interest which is pratically destined to be with them at the creator of the story's bias and that the audience can see happening fro a mile away, and the hapless third parties that are waiting to be dumped/rejected at the opportune moment. such love triangles are a waste of time and pointless. Love triangles must be equal, as jak said and fair. meaning feelings must be neutral, characters must have proper development and bonds with each other and there must be no particular bias, so that when a couple happens it is satisfying to see

Yeah, very few times have love triangles (much less "harems") been done in any meaningful way from my experience. Most of the time, they're just done for cheap filler drama that ultimately means nothing for both the story and the characters involved, especially given there is usually a very obvious "destined" pairing that gets far more attention than others, but they keep trying to "tease" others with "incidents" and other shenanigans and people just eat it up because of their own favoritism towards a certain character(s) (ranging from looks to sympathy and whatnot).
 


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#50745 KClaws_2

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Posted 25 August 2019 - 11:00 AM

Seems I have struck a nerve. I don't know if I want to reply because this is going to lead to nowhere, but I will say this. It is NOT just the scenes themselves that are the issues, it is the context of the scenes compared to the motives of the people making them. Symbols can mean anything depending on context, but they can change. I am not sure how political I want to go here, but I can think of a few symbols that originally oppression and hatred, but are now used to symbol anarchy for freedom. That is history.
Disney and Marvel are EXTREMELY SJW. Not only do they not hide, but they downright admit it. Rian Johnson and Kathleen Kennedy to Star Wars and Kevin Feige to MCU and on and on. It is not a secret and I can pull obvious time where they purposely called fans misogynist for not liking Captain Marvel.
You are also confusing Feminist from femnazi and I think this is a huge difference. Femnazis' berate men non-stop to make them feel better. Feminist point out the sexism that take place, but pushing for equality. Wonder Woman would be a feminist. Yes, she had a scene where she called a secretary a type of slave, but you are missing the context of the scene where it takes places in WWII and the culture was different. It is a different culture meaning she didnt understand one from the other. She didn't just go in there and started spouting how bad men are.
I am a feminist, but I am not a femnazi. I believe in equality of the sexes and if you are not a feminist then you are sexist. That's not that hard to understand, but you automatically assume that "feminism" means "female superiority." That's not it at all. You are confusing the two.
So why is Captain Marvel NOT sexist, but Wonder Woman is? We are talking about the live action movies after all.
 

You are looking at context, but you are missing the context I said above. Why was the scene created in the first place? Sure, it became a deleted scene later on, but why was in thought of to be put in? Why did you need a guy to be that creepy and stereotypical when MOST MEN are not like this? Why even created it in the first place? Considering that Marvel and Disney are run by open SJWs who admit to wanting female superiority...the context created for the scene is clear.
Why not make another woman come up and judge her? Maybe call her a slut or something. I go out around my town every day and I NEVER see this kind of behavior occur. Not once. Yet, Hollywood keeps making these scenes like they happen every time a girl walks two steps. No. That is completely stereotypical.
This movie, portraying men like that, is sexist towards men. I am offended as a man for how creepy they portrayed this scene on both ends. It is not me whining about "look at how that huge kitten beat that poor innocent man." No. The entire scene is one sexist portrayal of men and women interaction. This doesn't happen as often as these movies want to portray.
Bonus question: Name a Marvel movie where the MALE superhero berates a female and nearly kills her after she tries to say something like "you know, you would look so much better if you wore tighter shirts" and have him steal her car or something. I'll wait.
 

Okay, this is the biggest joke of the whole thread. No, Captain Marvel is not Sakura. This is not even in the same ballpark. No, none has claimed that Captain Marvel alone is going to ruin the MCU. It's just one part of a whole issue that is growing. No, I am not ignoring the flaws of the other characters. Plus, Brie Larson is not helping by constantly berating white men and insulting them. It is not helping when every single time she goes for an interview the other cast hate her guts and she acts likes she alone can do anything. "Yeah, Captain Marvel can totally lift Thor's hammer, beat Superman, and one shot Thanos without trying." Look this up. She is obviously a SJW misandrist trying to prove something and only comes off as being a real kitten.
Brie Larson is a big girl. She can defend herself. She said these words she has to own up to it.
Did you even read the parts where I had an issues with like Rey being too powerful without formal training in Star Wars and the the reaso why they did that was because Rian Johnson wanted her to be that OP because "We want wahmen to be better than men?" Did you read about the part where I said that Captain Marvel has no excuse for why she was not around for any of the other battles in the MCU that they could have used her help and that the cheap explanation is weaksauce in the grand scheme of things? Thanos and Ego were ruining planets left and right and she did nothing. They were practically destroying the galaxy and she did nothing. Where was she? They have no explanation. Why? Because in reality, Captain Marvel was shoehorned in at the last possible second. THAT is why she is really bad. They forced pushed her in because Black Widow, Scarlet Witch, and any of the other female superheroes were "not good enough." This is exactly what they thought. They wanted a broken OP female superhero who has no emotional connection and it is obvious
Dr. Strange said he have bigger fish to fry to, but even he stopped what he was doing to help the Avengers. Endgame even explained why the Ancient didn't get involved.
I have a whole list of issue with the MCU, but this is not the place to put them. You are taking one thing and making it seems like a majority.
 

The worst movie I have ever seen? The Room. The worst MCU movie I have ever seen? It is a tie between Captain Marvel, Thor Dark World, and Iron Man 3. They may have some good scenes, but overall the plot was severely lacking. Second to last worst? Age of Ultron.
I gave you legit reasons why Captain Marvel is horrible. I have also talked about this extensive motives of Marvel behind the scenes and the issues with pushing more agendas than story telling.
Again, the only thing they push for Thor Love and Thunder is Lady Thor (who Marvel can't stand us saying even though it is cultural appropriation at its finest) and a lesbian Valkyrie being the first gay superhero...even though she really isn't and it was Nova who was the first openly gay superhero in Marvel. It is the same reason why everyone praises Black Panther because "It is the first black superhero" when really the movie itself was mediore at best and was basically a rehash of Iron Man mixed with The Lion King. Not bad, but mediocre. It was grand standed for being a black superhero and not because it was a good movie. That is pathetic.
But hey, cultural appropriation is par for Disney now....just look at the black Little Mermaid. Apparently Ginger is the new black. I rather have something more original. Maybe make actual meangingful characters instead of forcing diversity into something that makes no sense to do so.
Of course, these same people are going after Mulan because something about the main heroine supporting the Chinese police?  I don't really care, but it makes me question the validity of seriousness when people chime in with "culture acceptance" non-stop only to toss out other cultures because they don't have the same agenda mindset.
I am more of a freedom of choice and freedom of speech guy. You can say or do whatever you want, but don't affect other people's lives.
 

Hahahahaahahahahahah. Ahhh....good one.
Magic Mirror on the wall. Who has never been on twitter at all?
But I will remember this. Next time I see Jamie Marchi wanting to cut off another innocent man's balls...I'll remember that I am just making it up.
Next time I see someone complain about False Rape accusations existing in an anime saying how they are not real and how this is sexist against women...I'll remind myself that I am just imagining it.
And of course, next time I see a woman act like a victim because she claims that ten years ago someone hugged her inappropriately.and all of sudden NOW she feels uncomfortable even though back then she was giddy as a school girl...I'll remember that it is conservative brainwashing.
I wonder what you would say to a women who claims rape when no such rape occurred?
Discussion....terminated.

Oy Vei, where do I begin?
First off, I didn’t address every point you made because they were YOUR OPINIONS, and I don’t have enough time in the day to rebute ones that are not worth my time. I’m just addressing the ones as not true, like CM complaining about the patriarchy. Again, WHERE DID THIS HAPPEN? I SAW THE MOVIE, she did not say “MEN SUX” ONCE, and you still haven’t provided me with any definitive examples. “All Of It” doesn’t cut it. And that deleted scene was filmed because that’s how movies work. They write a script, they film it, and during post-production they cut some scenes either for time, because the scene didn’t fit the narrative, or...reasons. Often times filmmakers don’t see some of the flaws in their original script, and edit certain scenes out or reshoot new ones entirely. I guess in the case of the one scene we’re talking about, they just felt it was unnecessary for her to burn the man’s hand because battle of the sexes wasn’t the theme of the movie, and she was going to take it anyway so why waste 2 minutes?
Brie Larson hates white men? Interesting...she hates white men, yet she signed onto a project that was co-directed by a white man, produced by a white man, and approved by a board of directors at Disney that are most likely...mostly white. Yeah, sorry, but I’m not buying it. Also, unless one of the cast members comes out, they don’t have a problem with her. Don Cheadle debunked that already. And it was Chris Evans who wanted her to be Captain Marvel in the first place. If Disney studios is really as SJW as you claim, then it sounds like she fits right in and they don’t have a problem with her.
And I think the Sakura comparison fits. Does she have people who blow up her bad points like Sakura? YES. Do said people also ignore her good points? Seems that way to me. Has the dislike turned into such an unhealthy obsession? Kitten yes, it has!
And SPEAKING OF DISNEY BEING SJW, need I remind you Marvel exec Peter Pearlmutter is a proud Trump supporter and is the reason we didn’t get a Black Widow movie sooner, because “girls don’t buy toys?” Or how about Robert Downey Jr being an open Republican? The co-writer of Dr Strange, Robert C Cargil, also an open Republican, expressing how thrilled he was working with Marvel Studios and even saying that “The SJWs were going to hate what we did with the Ancient One no matter what?” Granted, those two are more moderate Republicans, but I’d assume this SJW Dystopia you speak of wouldn’t allow them in. Let’s also not forget that Chris Pratt joined a rather controversial church after his divorce. He’s still returning as Star Lord to my knowledge.
Also, I got the point of that Wonder Woman scene. A bunch of others probably did not. But I still remember back when Geoff Johns was promoting what they THOUGHT was going to be the DCEU with Kevin Smith, so many were triggered when he described Wonder Woman as a “feminist icon.”
Just do a YouTube search on feminism. I promise you almost all of them will be about how bad/ridiculous a feminist opinion is. And most of those people think being a feminist and being a feminazi are one and the same thing.
You don’t see men doing the opposite (or same, depending on your point of view) to women as you see some prominent feminists do because WE’RE DIFFERENT. Yes, this statement seems to contradict the whole equality thing, but it’s true. We grow differently, we tend to think different, and we go through different experiences. Sexual advances are a much more dangerous thing for women. If they say no, and the guy tries to force himself on her, the woman’s going to have a bit of a challenge forcing him off. If a woman tries to force herself on one of us, the average guy is usually able to at least hold her at bay and run away. In the US, one in five women will be raped in their lifetimes. Only one in 71 men will be raped (whether that’s by other women or men these stats don’t say). With numbers like those, I don’t blame women for being on the edge if a guy tries to get too friendly with her when she doesn’t want it. Not to mention those awful gang rapes in India and how some girls in the Middle East are raped so their rapist can marry them. Neither of us have it perfect, we’re all going to run into an awful person from the opposite sex and both of us have our own privileges and disadvantages...but women really seem to have it against them, even in this day and age.
This whole explosion of rape/assault accusation isn’t the result of a trend, it’s the result of others getting away with something for too long. The reason why most of these victims wait so long to come forward is attitudes like these where they are accused of being liars or downplay the situation. Now, do I think we should believe the accusers by default? No. Do I think we should go to social media and lynch the accused? No. Do women lie and abuse the whole MeToo thing? Yes, some do. Should we have a fair investigation into each claim? Absolutely. But the only way we’re going to get justice for both men and women is if we treat each case accordingly, and don’t whine about it if the results are not in your favor. Actual investigations are how many of the false accusations get outed, so why fight them?
On one last thing about the SJW thing...just admit you have a problem with everyone being liberal. Because that’s what you really mean. Basically anything remotely left of center is SJW nowadays. Be like that if you want, but don’t hide behind these perjoratives, just be like Ann Coulter and Sean Hannity and don’t pretend you’re making any distinction within the group of people you’re kittening on.
I honestly don’t know if I’ll get a response for this, but if you want to discuss further, feel free to PM me. Or don’t. It’s your call.

#50746 Bryon_Konoha_Ninja

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Posted 25 August 2019 - 03:43 PM

And it's not even that they "understand" them so much as just having their own obsessiveness in them being together for whatever reason; no different from child Sakura's fangirl crush on Sasuke or Hinatatas' obsession over Naruto. Neither one actually "understands" the object of their obsession and mostly just want to be with them for shallow, selfish reasons.
 

Yeah, very few times have love triangles (much less "harems") been done in any meaningful way from my experience. Most of the time, they're just done for cheap filler drama that ultimately means nothing for both the story and the characters involved, especially given there is usually a very obvious "destined" pairing that gets far more attention than others, but they keep trying to "tease" others with "incidents" and other shenanigans and people just eat it up because of their own favoritism towards a certain character(s) (ranging from looks to sympathy and whatnot).

 

On both of those counts, buddy, I'm with you on that. And that's the reason that I dislike NaruHina and SasuSaku; neither girl fully understand the object of their obsessions.

 

Personally, I know how that feels too with love triangles. One of those good examples comes from some of Rumiko Takahashi's works, like in Inuyasha. Sure, a lot of the Inuyasha/Kagome/Kikyo love triangle comes from Kagome continuing to see Kikyo as she was when she was resurrected partially due to fear and the other part due to jealousy of her bonds with Inuyasha rather than how she had changed, but it was done very well to show how conflicted Inuyasha was, since he was falling in love with Kagome, but he couldn't leave Kikyo alone since she helped him try to become a better person, before Naraku screwed that up.

 

Though the Inuyasha/Kagome/Koga love triangle at times is more played up for laughs, we do see times where it feels like Kagome really is falling for Koga, an dhow eventually Koga realizes he can't win over Inuyasha and gain Kagome's heart. See? THAT'S how you write a love triangle, not that BS that we got in Naruto due to Kishimoto's incompetent writing as well as the meddling of his later editors, the stupid fans, etc.



#50747 James S Cassidy

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Posted 25 August 2019 - 04:08 PM

I agree, but technically speaking a love triangle where "person a" is pining after "person b" who in turn is after "person c" still counts and there are many so called love triangles that do that. The main problem with Naruto is that the context for those love triangles was not functional at the halfway point and beyond.

This wasn't even a love triangle in Naruto. It was a love abyss. Hinata loved Naruto who loved Sakura who apparently love Sasuke who loved No one, but every single girl was in love with Sasuke apparently. Every single female in the series had some kind of crush on him.

The question is why was only Sakura's "love" for Sasuke legit while everyone else's was garbage? If anything, the ONLY person who legit loved Sasuke is Karin, but according to the proenders "screw her" right?
 

 

Srella? :hehehe:

 
The trouble is, you have a HARD TIME finding those, wouldn't you agree? :mellow: I made a rant a few years ago about how the problem with love triangle s is not the idea itself but many of which I see are executed poorly because the way it usually goes is that there is no love triangle, just as you are saying, there are only the the set in stone couple and one or more "romantic false leads" that don't matter or have the tension already dulled because  the writing is not giving they preference or priority at any given point in the story. A love triangle properly done would have to have equility and mutually feelings on all fronts wouldn't you think? 
 
P.S. My rant was based off of a literary analysis post of love triangles I found quite a long time ago. And I regret to say I can't source or find it anymore but that is what inspired my view point on love triangles. I think I remember the the name that that individual is using but again I can't find it so I could be wrong. Lmyael. Or something along those lines :headscratch:

I am getting tired of writers using writing techniques as excuses for their laziness of not explaining stuff.

It is that whole stupid red herring thing.

A REAL red herring is when all the facts or elements are still true, but the conclusion to it is different. Basically, a factual misdirection is what I call it. The red herring for "NaruSaku" is not a true red herring, but just Kishimoto trying excuse hisretconning because the elements he showed end up being false rather than true elements leading to a different conclusion.

Let me explain:
A real good red herring is in the movie Hot Fuzz.
Sgt. Angel looks at all evidence he has and comes up with a conclusion that COULD be the correct answer and it makes sense. Angel talks about how the reason why it all happened is because some people were going to sell their land to another business or because they were a cheating lover or even because they couldn't stand the political backlash and bumped them off to stop them from doing their plans.
Seems legit and the evidence matches, but then you find out that all of that was not the case. The real reason why people were murdered was because one was a horrible journalist, one was a horrible actors, and the other was because they didn't want their talents used in other towns. Basically the evidence is still factual, but the outcome is different. Meanwhile all the legit reasons was debunked by the people saying "well, we don't mind competition, we didn't care that they cheated we got over it, and the political backlash was just a silly pipe dream." Even Sgt. Angel was flummoxed being one of the world's greatest police officers and he got it wrong.

NaruSaku is the worst red herring in the history because Naruto confirmed he loved Sakura, he confirmed that he never saw Hinata as anything more than a random girl, and he stated over and over what he truly felt.

If they really wanted to make NS a red herring, then Kishimoto should have made Naruto's love be ambiguous and have him say that he was in love with a certain girl and she doesn't even know it. Making it SEEM like Sakura, but when asked "You like Sakura don't you? Like love her." He should be like "What? No. What gave you that idea? I have been trying to ask Hinata out, but I have been nervous about it" leaving the other characters surprised.

Kishimoto didn't do that. Instead, he is using the "red herring" as an excuse for retconning and his poor writing explaining how everything played out. Basically, he is extremely lazy and just used it as an excuse not to do any work.
 

I hate it and Kishimoto is not the only writer to do this either as of late. It is stupid. Many writers are using these tropes as excuses rather than reasons.


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#50748 totherpage95

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Posted 25 August 2019 - 09:53 PM

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#50749 VanitasDS76491

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Posted 25 August 2019 - 10:32 PM

This wasn't even a love triangle in Naruto. It was a love abyss. Hinata loved Naruto who loved Sakura who apparently love Sasuke who loved No one, but every single girl was in love with Sasuke apparently. Every single female in the series had some kind of crush on him.
The question is why was only Sakura's "love" for Sasuke legit while everyone else's was garbage? If anything, the ONLY person who legit loved Sasuke is Karin, but according to the proenders "screw her" right?
 
 


I am getting tired of writers using writing techniques as excuses for their laziness of not explaining stuff.
It is that whole stupid red herring thing.
A REAL red herring is when all the facts or elements are still true, but the conclusion to it is different. Basically, a factual misdirection is what I call it. The red herring for "NaruSaku" is not a true red herring, but just Kishimoto trying excuse hisretconning because the elements he showed end up being false rather than true elements leading to a different conclusion.
Let me explain:
A real good red herring is in the movie Hot Fuzz.
Sgt. Angel looks at all evidence he has and comes up with a conclusion that COULD be the correct answer and it makes sense. Angel talks about how the reason why it all happened is because some people were going to sell their land to another business or because they were a cheating lover or even because they couldn't stand the political backlash and bumped them off to stop them from doing their plans.
Seems legit and the evidence matches, but then you find out that all of that was not the case. The real reason why people were murdered was because one was a horrible journalist, one was a horrible actors, and the other was because they didn't want their talents used in other towns. Basically the evidence is still factual, but the outcome is different. Meanwhile all the legit reasons was debunked by the people saying "well, we don't mind competition, we didn't care that they cheated we got over it, and the political backlash was just a silly pipe dream." Even Sgt. Angel was flummoxed being one of the world's greatest police officers and he got it wrong.
NaruSaku is the worst red herring in the history because Naruto confirmed he loved Sakura, he confirmed that he never saw Hinata as anything more than a random girl, and he stated over and over what he truly felt.
If they really wanted to make NS a red herring, then Kishimoto should have made Naruto's love be ambiguous and have him say that he was in love with a certain girl and she doesn't even know it. Making it SEEM like Sakura, but when asked "You like Sakura don't you? Like love her." He should be like "What? No. What gave you that idea? I have been trying to ask Hinata out, but I have been nervous about it" leaving the other characters surprised.
Kishimoto didn't do that. Instead, he is using the "red herring" as an excuse for retconning and his poor writing explaining how everything played out. Basically, he is extremely lazy and just used it as an excuse not to do any work.
 
I hate it and Kishimoto is not the only writer to do this either as of late. It is stupid. Many writers are using these tropes as excuses rather than reasons.

It's lazy and kitten writer for sure love to see linkara review this he'd have fun ripping it apart given that he actually cares about continuity and constancy.

#50750 Phantom_999

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Posted 26 August 2019 - 07:11 PM

This wasn't even a love triangle in Naruto. It was a love abyss. Hinata loved Naruto who loved Sakura who apparently love Sasuke who loved No one, but every single girl was in love with Sasuke apparently. Every single female in the series had some kind of crush on him.

The question is why was only Sakura's "love" for Sasuke legit while everyone else's was garbage? If anything, the ONLY person who legit loved Sasuke is Karin, but according to the proenders "screw her" right?
 
 
I am getting tired of writers using writing techniques as excuses for their laziness of not explaining stuff.

It is that whole stupid red herring thing.

A REAL red herring is when all the facts or elements are still true, but the conclusion to it is different. Basically, a factual misdirection is what I call it. The red herring for "NaruSaku" is not a true red herring, but just Kishimoto trying excuse hisretconning because the elements he showed end up being false rather than true elements leading to a different conclusion.

Let me explain:
A real good red herring is in the movie Hot Fuzz.
Sgt. Angel looks at all evidence he has and comes up with a conclusion that COULD be the correct answer and it makes sense. Angel talks about how the reason why it all happened is because some people were going to sell their land to another business or because they were a cheating lover or even because they couldn't stand the political backlash and bumped them off to stop them from doing their plans.
Seems legit and the evidence matches, but then you find out that all of that was not the case. The real reason why people were murdered was because one was a horrible journalist, one was a horrible actors, and the other was because they didn't want their talents used in other towns. Basically the evidence is still factual, but the outcome is different. Meanwhile all the legit reasons was debunked by the people saying "well, we don't mind competition, we didn't care that they cheated we got over it, and the political backlash was just a silly pipe dream." Even Sgt. Angel was flummoxed being one of the world's greatest police officers and he got it wrong.

NaruSaku is the worst red herring in the history because Naruto confirmed he loved Sakura, he confirmed that he never saw Hinata as anything more than a random girl, and he stated over and over what he truly felt.

If they really wanted to make NS a red herring, then Kishimoto should have made Naruto's love be ambiguous and have him say that he was in love with a certain girl and she doesn't even know it. Making it SEEM like Sakura, but when asked "You like Sakura don't you? Like love her." He should be like "What? No. What gave you that idea? I have been trying to ask Hinata out, but I have been nervous about it" leaving the other characters surprised.

Kishimoto didn't do that. Instead, he is using the "red herring" as an excuse for retconning and his poor writing explaining how everything played out. Basically, he is extremely lazy and just used it as an excuse not to do any work.
 
I hate it and Kishimoto is not the only writer to do this either as of late. It is stupid. Many writers are using these tropes as excuses rather than reasons.

 
Oh yeah I've said that countless times. WHAT EXACTLY legitimizes Sakura's love, but the other fan girls "only had silly crushes" on Sasuke? What makes Hinata's feelings love when she is shows no emotional intimacy with Naruto at all in the manga and spends no time with him during free time, but Sakura's feelings are either ignored or are JUST PLATONIC? I've already said that that anyone that wholeheartedly believes any of that bologna has the completely wrong idea about love and romantic relationships.
 
And yes we all know that Red herring is FAR from the most accurate description regarding the end couples and justifications of the post chapter 700 setting. It is just an excuse because deep inside all the executives that pushed for NaruHina, they know that the couple made no sense either, or else they wouldn't had that idea in their heads that Naruto and Hinata needed a movie to dedicate their romance to. 


Edited by Phantom_999, 30 August 2019 - 08:17 PM.

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#50751 Kagomaru

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Posted 31 August 2019 - 05:42 AM

 

On both of those counts, buddy, I'm with you on that. And that's the reason that I dislike NaruHina and SasuSaku; neither girl fully understand the object of their obsessions.

 

Personally, I know how that feels too with love triangles. One of those good examples comes from some of Rumiko Takahashi's works, like in Inuyasha. Sure, a lot of the Inuyasha/Kagome/Kikyo love triangle comes from Kagome continuing to see Kikyo as she was when she was resurrected partially due to fear and the other part due to jealousy of her bonds with Inuyasha rather than how she had changed, but it was done very well to show how conflicted Inuyasha was, since he was falling in love with Kagome, but he couldn't leave Kikyo alone since she helped him try to become a better person, before Naraku screwed that up.

 

Though the Inuyasha/Kagome/Koga love triangle at times is more played up for laughs, we do see times where it feels like Kagome really is falling for Koga, an dhow eventually Koga realizes he can't win over Inuyasha and gain Kagome's heart. See? THAT'S how you write a love triangle, not that BS that we got in Naruto due to Kishimoto's incompetent writing as well as the meddling of his later editors, the stupid fans, etc.

 

Also, take into account that for Inuyasha(and this isn't typically addressed much in the Inuyasha fandom), there was no passage of time between the 50 years he was sealed to a tree and meeting Kagome. From his perspective, Kikyo had just shot him a minute ago and now he meets her reincarnation. So, the conflict between his feelings for Kikyo and his burgeoning romance with Kagome made perfect sense. Nisekoi and Rosario+Vampire also handle love triangles reasonably well.


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#50752 KClaws_2

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Posted 31 August 2019 - 09:45 AM

Love triangles to me can be a very difficult thing to pull off, if only because SOMEBODY is going to be unhappy with the conclusion. You can make the ultimate outcome obvious, like in Inuyasha, and others do make it like it could be anybody. The problem with the former is that there’s no suspense to the end, and with the later you can fall into the trap of not being aware when you go too far with one possible pairing.

But in Naruto, we never HAD a love triangle. Yes, Kishimoto baited us with who Sakura would choose, but he did everything in his power to make SasuSaku as toxic as possible. Everyone who wasn’t into the shipping fiasco really, REALLY didn’t want her to end up with Sasuke because he only brought out the worst aspects of her character. Kishimoto in essence only gave her one option: Naruto.

And Hinata was almost a non-factor in all of this. She was basically ignored throughout Part 2 (I think only TenTen may have had it worse in terms of panels/screentime) and when she interacted with Naruto, each time it seemingly had little to no lasting impact on the story, including the hand-holding scene. The moments didn’t impact Naruto in the slightest, and it’s just so odd that The Last’s explanation of those moments made things worse (confusing love of a person with someone’s love of food?).

Also, Kishimoto clearly doesn’t understand what a red herring is. Was Hinata secretly like Kushina the whole time? Not in my view.

I’ve noticed fans try to reconcile this with Kushina’s kidnapping by cloud and paralleling it with Hinata. Problems:

1) Hinata’s DAD rescued her, not her lover
2) She was asleep for the whole ordeal
3) This subplot was related to Neji, not the heroine in question (if you can even call Hinata that)

Fans have also tried to do the reverse, making Minato the Hinata of the last generation. I remember way back when recently after the ending, fans decried our NaruSaku moments as fillers and tried to use the anime-only scene where Minato was watching Kushina from the tree was a NaruHina parallel. I had to point out that was non-canon as well as Kishimoto never drew that scene.

I think some may take issues with my opinions here, but Kishimoto did have two somewhat decent red herrings.

The first was the reveal of Itachi. During the flashback at the Valley of the End, Itachi was the pride and joy of his family and cared for Sasuke. He also laid out later that his parents somewhat had issues with him to the point they became more distant, and just all of a sudden, Itachi turns complete psychopath and murders EVERYONE, but leaves an 8 year old live to test his abilities without any sure way of knowing Sasuke will reach that potential?

Then Obito. The one eyehole in the mask was a clue, as was the hair. Not to mention Madara was so powerful a shinobi that...well, he probably didn’t even need to be one...and yet he’s more of a lurking in the shadows kind of guy?

Granted, the execution can be debated, but I will give him credit for AT LEAST planting some bread crumbs that could lead the way there.

But the love whatevershapeitwas? He completely pulled the rug out from under us.

#50753 VanitasDS76491

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Posted 31 August 2019 - 01:27 PM

Love triangles to me can be a very difficult thing to pull off, if only because SOMEBODY is going to be unhappy with the conclusion. You can make the ultimate outcome obvious, like in Inuyasha, and others do make it like it could be anybody. The problem with the former is that there’s no suspense to the end, and with the later you can fall into the trap of not being aware when you go too far with one possible pairing.
But in Naruto, we never HAD a love triangle. Yes, Kishimoto baited us with who Sakura would choose, but he did everything in his power to make SasuSaku as toxic as possible. Everyone who wasn’t into the shipping fiasco really, REALLY didn’t want her to end up with Sasuke because he only brought out the worst aspects of her character. Kishimoto in essence only gave her one option: Naruto.
And Hinata was almost a non-factor in all of this. She was basically ignored throughout Part 2 (I think only TenTen may have had it worse in terms of panels/screentime) and when she interacted with Naruto, each time it seemingly had little to no lasting impact on the story, including the hand-holding scene. The moments didn’t impact Naruto in the slightest, and it’s just so odd that The Last’s explanation of those moments made things worse (confusing love of a person with someone’s love of food?).
Also, Kishimoto clearly doesn’t understand what a red herring is. Was Hinata secretly like Kushina the whole time? Not in my view.
I’ve noticed fans try to reconcile this with Kushina’s kidnapping by cloud and paralleling it with Hinata. Problems:
1) Hinata’s DAD rescued her, not her lover
2) She was asleep for the whole ordeal
3) This subplot was related to Neji, not the heroine in question (if you can even call Hinata that)
Fans have also tried to do the reverse, making Minato the Hinata of the last generation. I remember way back when recently after the ending, fans decried our NaruSaku moments as fillers and tried to use the anime-only scene where Minato was watching Kushina from the tree was a NaruHina parallel. I had to point out that was non-canon as well as Kishimoto never drew that scene.
I think some may take issues with my opinions here, but Kishimoto did have two somewhat decent red herrings.
The first was the reveal of Itachi. During the flashback at the Valley of the End, Itachi was the pride and joy of his family and cared for Sasuke. He also laid out later that his parents somewhat had issues with him to the point they became more distant, and just all of a sudden, Itachi turns complete psychopath and murders EVERYONE, but leaves an 8 year old live to test his abilities without any sure way of knowing Sasuke will reach that potential?
Then Obito. The one eyehole in the mask was a clue, as was the hair. Not to mention Madara was so powerful a shinobi that...well, he probably didn’t even need to be one...and yet he’s more of a lurking in the shadows kind of guy?
Granted, the execution can be debated, but I will give him credit for AT LEAST planting some bread crumbs that could lead the way there.
But the love whatevershapeitwas? He completely pulled the rug out from under us.

Plus tobi name is not far off from obito so you can put two and two together. Also hinata is nowhere close to kushina level of awesomess or character and most NH moments are filler.

#50754 James S Cassidy

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Posted 31 August 2019 - 02:40 PM

I just now realized something.

Proenders and Sakura haters keep saying that Sakura is horrible because she manipulated Naruto and lied to him. HOWEVER, they also say that Naruto never loved Sakura in the first place. Well, which is it?

You can't manipulate something that doesn't exist. So how can Sakura manipulate Naruto's feelings, but Naruto never having feelings for Sakura in the first place? Do you see the oxymoron I see?

So, there are three choices:

1. Sakura manipulated Naruto's feelings for her to get to Sasuke thus proving that Naruto had feelings for Sakura all along to be manipulated making Hinata the sloppy second; proving that Naruto never loved Hinata at all and he just settled for whatever he could get

OR

2. Naruto never loved Sakura at all like what Naruto the Last said in which he only wanted Sakura over a "rivalry game" and thus there is no way for Sakura to be a manipulator because Naruto never loved her in the first place.

or I just go with
3. Kishimoto retconned everything because he was told to and he stopped caring a long time ago thus destroying his story altogether.


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#50755 Phantom_999

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Posted 31 August 2019 - 04:32 PM

Love triangles to me can be a very difficult thing to pull off, if only because SOMEBODY is going to be unhappy with the conclusion. You can make the ultimate outcome obvious, like in Inuyasha, and others do make it like it could be anybody. The problem with the former is that there’s no suspense to the end, and with the later you can fall into the trap of not being aware when you go too far with one possible pairing.

But in Naruto, we never HAD a love triangle. Yes, Kishimoto baited us with who Sakura would choose, but he did everything in his power to make SasuSaku as toxic as possible. Everyone who wasn’t into the shipping fiasco really, REALLY didn’t want her to end up with Sasuke because he only brought out the worst aspects of her character. Kishimoto in essence only gave her one option: Naruto.

And Hinata was almost a non-factor in all of this. She was basically ignored throughout Part 2 (I think only TenTen may have had it worse in terms of panels/screentime) and when she interacted with Naruto, each time it seemingly had little to no lasting impact on the story, including the hand-holding scene. The moments didn’t impact Naruto in the slightest, and it’s just so odd that The Last’s explanation of those moments made things worse (confusing love of a person with someone’s love of food?).

Also, Kishimoto clearly doesn’t understand what a red herring is. Was Hinata secretly like Kushina the whole time? Not in my view.

I’ve noticed fans try to reconcile this with Kushina’s kidnapping by cloud and paralleling it with Hinata. Problems:

1) Hinata’s DAD rescued her, not her lover
2) She was asleep for the whole ordeal
3) This subplot was related to Neji, not the heroine in question (if you can even call Hinata that)

Fans have also tried to do the reverse, making Minato the Hinata of the last generation. I remember way back when recently after the ending, fans decried our NaruSaku moments as fillers and tried to use the anime-only scene where Minato was watching Kushina from the tree was a NaruHina parallel. I had to point out that was non-canon as well as Kishimoto never drew that scene.

I think some may take issues with my opinions here, but Kishimoto did have two somewhat decent red herrings.

The first was the reveal of Itachi. During the flashback at the Valley of the End, Itachi was the pride and joy of his family and cared for Sasuke. He also laid out later that his parents somewhat had issues with him to the point they became more distant, and just all of a sudden, Itachi turns complete psychopath and murders EVERYONE, but leaves an 8 year old live to test his abilities without any sure way of knowing Sasuke will reach that potential?

Then Obito. The one eyehole in the mask was a clue, as was the hair. Not to mention Madara was so powerful a shinobi that...well, he probably didn’t even need to be one...and yet he’s more of a lurking in the shadows kind of guy?

Granted, the execution can be debated, but I will give him credit for AT LEAST planting some bread crumbs that could lead the way there.

But the love whatevershapeitwas? He completely pulled the rug out from under us.

 

But that is exactly the problem. the IDEA was that there were supposed to be love triangles, but the way they were written did not do the so called other parties for Naruto and Sakura respectively any favors. You don't see love triangles, you see Naruto, Sakura and all of the other "competition" that were either irrelevant to not develop any semblance of a bond to the latter two to give anybody that doesn't have shipping goggles permanently glued to their faces the idea that they would be a true  "SIGNIFICANT (as in equal) other" for either of them or is Sasuke, the loner turned sociopath that gives no effs about how others around him feel and went on an immature murderous rampage because he DOESN'T WANT anyone to understand how he feels. In fact I will talk about my point on him first.

 

Sasuke- The cool popular bad boy who was everything Naruto was not, a hit with the girls, talented, and came from a renowned family. So Naruto made his goal to  surpass him. So what partially fueled Naruto's rivalry with Sasuke again? because Naruto liked Sakura who was one of the aforementioned fan girls. This may not seem significant at first glance, but those that bother to remember will recall that Naruto always was envied the attention that Sakura giving Sasuke, which is actually the entire premise of chapter/episode 3. Sasuke in turn showed no interest in the girls throwing themselves at him and actually found Sakura's fan girl tendencies and flirting with him a real turn off. That hasn't changed all the way up  to his departure in part I of the manga/ anime. In Part II / Shippuden, he became even more cold and detached and gives no second thoughts of killing his former friends, Naruto included, which was the person he used to think of the most fondly. Sakura and Kakashi seem to just group in with his memories of Team 7 since he shows no smile or reminiscences on them like with Naruto, the key and only example being when they went to retrieve retrieve the Demon Carver(?, Whatever. Zabusa's sword) for Suigetsu and saw the the bridge was named after Naruto. That was it, and the other only fond memory is when He was trying to save Jugo, Suigetsu and Karin during the fight against Kira B and he was reminded of Team 7 when they all showed their loyalty to him. Again Sakura and Kakashi do not get any fondest memories by themselves with him when you think they should since Kakashi gave him favoritism to teach him Chidori, and Sakura is his soul mate and always loved him like all shippers are saying, and is also the excuse why NaruSaku shouldn't happen". Then things went down hill after that. Sasuke started to become more and more obsessed with avenging his family and EVERYONE was seen as an obstacle to be removed. He even became demented enough to say everyone in the Leaf Village is his target because they are all laughing and smiling care-freely while Itachi suffered in the dark by himself, so he wants to give then terror and pain in that stead. Does that SOUND like a guy Sakura can "be in love with" at this point? Hmm?

 

And during the world war he returns, and BOY do the moments with him SINK any chance of him and Sakura becoming a couple even further, with him showing no concern for anyone that could die in front of him, Kakashi and Sakura included. He only wants to win against Madara, Kaguya and fulfill his own grand ambition, whatever the hell Kishi thought it was because I overtax my brain when I try to fathom it. When either of them were about to be killed, he did not stick his neck out to save them at all, but Naruto has the time to both save them and fight Kaguya head on at the same time, so what's Sasuke's excuse? And all of that accumulates into chapter 693, where he OUTRIGHT shatters whatever hope shippers should have of him loving Sakura. His speech about how he has no interest in her, why does she love him and that she is just chasing some deluded fairy tale.  *BOOM*  Pro SS fans would have to completely ignore what was being said right there and insert new lines and context in their heads to believe in ANY ROMANCE SS could have at this point. The fact that any SS fan could be satisfied with them marrying at all regardless, shows that they NEVER cared about the characters, they just have some romanticized delusion of whatever they THINK SasuSaku has and must completely disregard 693 chapters worth of story of what happened between these two to think that this couple is "in love".

 

in fact, HInata shows an  equally bad if not worse fan base regarding that.

 

Hinata- Okay I will try and break this down as much as I can. Hinata is a Naruto fan girl, nothing more nothing less. She is that ONE GIRL that is crushing on Naruto and admiring him from afar to make up for the lack of fan girls Naruto has in comparison to his eternal rival and "best friend" Sasuke, that has all of the females in their age group (and later on even older women) swooning over him. Hinata is different from the other fan girls yes, in that she sees something in Naruto that she wishes she had but still, a fan girl is a fan girl. Especially taking in consideration that her appearances in the story don't amount to much, except for her love (again, if you can call it that) for Naruto. I will go off topic here for just a minute, because I think many of you that were not aware of this piece of information will find it to be HILARIOUS. When Kishi was interviewed for the very first time I believe, or second at least in the U.S.A., the interviewer brought up the topic of romance in Naruto and says that he/she wishes that Hinata gets her chance and Kishi answers he does too. HAHAHAHA. NOW TO TEAR INTO THAT KITTEN and to beat it to death!

 

When did Hinata first appear in the manga? chapter 37. And if you REALLY want to use the anime as a reference, she appeared in ONE SCENE in episode one wishing Naruto luck as he did his cloning test, and has not appeared since until the episode equivalent to chapter 37, if I recall correctly, if not I don't feel like looking it up. Moving on, this very chapter and chapter 1 for anyone that can even recall that far back contradicts the WHOLE "Hinata's first love, The Movie" on two regards. Naruto was childhood friends with her. If not, he at least protected her from bullies. The second factor is that he also knew the shadow clone technique from before the age of 12 which is the move that he studied in secret from Tobirama's scroll in the hopes of passing to become a genin in CHAPTER ONE, and not before then. Not to mention that Naruto's behaviour towards Hinata in her very introduction is indicative that he was never acquainted with her, and he called her a dark weird girl and she doesn't bring up how he protected her from bullies AT ALL. Then we have her fight against Neji, where Neji was  psychoanalyzing her and said that a failure is a failure and what you are born with is predestined and would never change. And Naruto who hates that argument, tells Hinata to "prove him wrong".  When she loses, Naruto vows to win for her and even scoops up some of the blood she coughed up. Afterwards, He finds Hinata on his way to the match with Neji and they had their first proper conversation in the series and he opens up her her a little by admitting he boasts about himself to hide his insecurities, but she is not seen again until she is mentioned to have tried visiting Naruto at the Hospital when the "Sasuke rescue" failed and just fainted because of all the bandages she saw. Now until this point I can't recall any moments between Hinata and Naruto to be romantic in nature, because again, supporters can toot their horns all they want that this is not a romance manga and that Naruto is just oblivious to Hinata's feelings but ALL of those arguments are blown to pieces again by the very fact that he still has Sakura on his mind at this point and it shows. He wants to impress Sakura, which is part of the reason he wanted to learn Rasengan, the primary reason is that he wanted a technique stronger that Chidori which Jiraiya promised him and he showed a bit of heartache when Sakura embraced Sasuke. He even made the  Promise of a Lifetime to Sakura that he would get Sasuke back for her. All if this, which again shows that what he feels is MORE than a crush because crushes would not bend their backs over that much for just anyone.

 

Okay I feel that that is enough from me for the time being. I will finish this argument later on a second post that regards Hinata in Part II and NaruSaku  in comparison to Sasuke and Hinata. so stay tuned  


Edited by Phantom_999, 04 September 2019 - 11:17 AM.

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#50756 Bryon_Konoha_Ninja

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Posted 01 September 2019 - 12:22 AM

 

But that is exactly the problem. the IDEA was that there were supposed to be love triangles, but the way they were written did not do the so called other parties for Naruto and Sakura respectively any favors. You don't see love triangles, you see Naruto, Sakura and all of the other so called "competition" that were  either irrelevant to not develop any semblance of a bond to the latter two to give anybody that doesn't have shipping goggles permanently glued to their faces the idea that they would be a true  SIGNIFICANT (as in equal) other for either of them or is Sasuke, the loner turned sociopath that gives no effs about how others around him feel and went on an immature murderous rampage because he DOESN'T WANT anyone to understand how he feels. In fact I will talk about my point on him first.

 

Sasuke- The cool popular bad boy who was everything Naruto was not, a hit with the girls, talented, and came from a renowned family. So Naruto made his goal to  surpass him. So what partially fueled Naruto's rivalry with Sasuke again? because Naruto liked Sakura who was one of the aforementioned fan girls. This may not seem significant, at first glance but those that bother to remember will recall that Naruto always was envied the attention that Sakura giving Sasuke, which is actually the entire premise or chapter/episode 3. Sasuke in turn showed no interest in the girls throwing themselves at him and actually found Sakura's fan girl tendencies and flirting with him a real turn off, that hasn't changed all the way up  to his departure in part I of the manga/ anime. In Part II / Shippuden, he became even more cold and detached, even to Naruto, and gives no second thoughts of killing his former friends, Naruto included which was the person he used to think of the most fondly. Sakura and Kakashi seem to just group in with his memories of Team 7 since he shows no smile or reminiscences on them like with Naruto, the key and only example being when they went to retrieve retrieve the Demon Carver(?, Whatever. Zabusa's sword) for Suigetsu and saw the the bridge was named after Naruto. That was it, and the other only fond memory is when He was trying to save Jugo Suigetsu and Karin during the fight against Kira B and he was reminded of Team 7 when they all showed their loyalty to him. Again Sakura and Kakashi do not get any fondest memories by themselves with him when you think they should since Kakashi gave him favoritism to teach him Chidori, and Sakura is is soul mate and always loved him like all shippers are saying and is also the excuse why NaruSaku shouldn't happen". Then things went down hill after that. Sasuke started to become more and more obsessed with avenging his family and EVERYONE was seen as an obstacle to be removed. He became even demented enough to say everyone in Leaf Village is his target because that are all laughing and smiling care-freely while Itachi suffered in the dark by himself, so he wants to give then terror and pain in that stead. Does that SOUND like a guy Sakura can "be in love with"? Hmm?

 

AND during the world war, he returns and BOY do the moments with him SINK any chance of him and Sakura becoming a couple even further, with him showing no concern for anyone that could die in front of him, Kakashi and Sakura included. He only wants to win against Madara, Kaguya and fulfill his own grand ambition, whatever the hell Kishi thought it was because I overtax my brain when I try to fathom it. When either of them were about to be killed, he did not stick his neck out to save them at all, but Naruto has the time to both save them and fight Kaguya head on at the same time, so what's Sasuke's excuse? And all of that accumulates into chapter 693, where he OUTRIGHT shatters whatever hope shippers should have of him loving Sakura. His speech about how he has no interest in her, why does she love him and that she is just chasing some deluded fairy tale.  *BOOM*  Pro SS fans would have to completely ignore what was being said right there and insert new lines and context in their heads to believe in ANY ROMANCE SS could have at this point. the fact that any SS fan could be satisfied with them marrying at this point shows that they NEVER cared about the characters at all, they just have some romanticized delusion of whatever they THINK SasuSaku has and must completely disregard 693 chapters worth of story of what happened between these two to think that this couple is romantic.

 

in fact HInata shows an  equally bad if not worse fan base regarding that.

 

Hinata- Okay I will try and break this down as much as I can. Hinata is a Naruto fan girl, nothing more nothing less. She is that ONE GIRL that is crushing on Naruto and admiring him from afar to make up for the lack of fan girls Naruto has in comparison to his eternal rival and "best friend" Sasuke, that has all of the females in their age group (and later on even older women) swooning over him. Hinata is different from the other fan girls yes, in that she sees something in Naruto that she wishes she had but still, a fan girl is a fan girl Especially taking in consideration that her appearances in the story don't amount to much, except for her love (again, if you can call it that) for Naruto. I will go off topic here for just a minute, because I think many of you that were not aware of this piece of information to find it to be HILARIOUS but when Kishi was interviewed for the very first time I believe, or or second at least in the U.S.A., the interviewer brought up the topic of romance in Naruto and says that he/she wishes that Hinata gets her chance and Kishi answers he does too. HAHAHAHA. NOW TO TEAR INTO THAT KITTEN and to beat it to death!!!

 

When did Hinata first appear in the manga? chapter 37. And if you REALLY want to use the anime as a reference she appeared in ONE SCENE in chapter one wishing Naruto luck as he did his cloning test, and has not appeared since until the episode equivalent to chapter 37, if I recall correctly, if not I don't feel like looking it up. Moving on, this very chapter and chapter 1 for anyone that can even recall that far back contradicts the WHOLE "Hinata's first love, The Movie" on two regards. Naruto was childhood friends with her, if not at least protected her from bullies, and also knew the shadow clone technique from before the age of 12 which is the move that he studied in secret from Tobirama's scroll in the hopes of passing as a genin at last in CHAPTER ONE, and not before he turned 10-12. Not to mention that Naruto's behaviour towards Hinata in her very introduction is indicative that he was never acquainted with her, and he called her a dark weird girl and she doesn't bring up how he protected her from bullies AT ALL. Then we have her fight against Neji, where Neji was  psychoanalyzing her and said that a failure is a failure and what you are born with is predestined and would never change, And Naruto who hates that argument tells Hinata to "prove him wrong".  When she loses, Naruto vows to win for her and eve scoops up some of the blood she coughed up. After wards He finds Hinata on his way to the match with Neji and they had their first proper conversation in the series and he opens up her her a little by admitting he boasts about himself to hide his insecurities, but she is not seen again until she is mentioned to have tried visiting Naruto at the Hospital when the "Sasuke rescue" failed and just fainted because of all the bandages she saw. Now until this point I can't recall any moments between Hinata and Naruto to be romantic in nature, because again, supporters can toot their horns all they want that this is not a romance manga and that Naruto is just oblivious to Hinata's feelings but ALL of those arguments are blown to pieces again by the very fact that he still has Sakura on his mind at this point and it shows. He wants to impress Sakura, which is part of the reason he wanted to learn Rasengan, the primary reason is that he wanted a technique stronger that Chidori which Jiraiya promised him and he showed a bit of heart ache when Sakura embraced Sasuke and even made the  Promise of a Lifetime to Sakura that he would get Sasuke back for her, which again shows that what he feels is MORE than a crush because crushes would not bend their backs over that much for just anyone.

 

Okay I feel that that is enough from me for the time being. I will finish this argument later on a second post that regards Hinata in Part two and NaruSaku  in comparison to Sasuke and Hinata. so stay tuned  

 

Bravo, Phantom!!! The one reason why I feel Sasuke is badly written in canon is the fact he's always only thinking about himself. When it came to going after Itachi after the massacre, I see it more as Sasuke wanting to kill Itachi to prove himself to be his "superior" because of the fact we know even as much as Sasuke admired Itachi, he also HATED him because of the attention he got from their dad, even if it was just Fugaku wanting to use Itachi's skills in the coup. His claims of wanting revenge were partial, but they masqueraded the obvious part that he wanted Itachi dead to make himself feel better, and he couldn't handle even after as strong as he'd gotten, that seeing Itachi not interested in facing him (not just to keep his cover up BUT also since he could tell Sasuke was still too blind to see the truth about the Uchiha clan) and getting his ass kicked so hard, he felt it for weeks in a sense physically and mentally, it just broke Sasuke, on top of seeing Naruto defeat Gaara, given he only wanted to beat Gaara because of his inferiority-superiority complex and arrogance.

 

And then when he worked with Obito, Sasuke didn't care about avenging Itachi, it was punishing the Leaf because Itachi loved the village and its people more than he did the Uchiha clan, just to spite Itachi for being "wrong". It's the same case when he chooses to become Hokage and to erase the past, even after getting closure with Itachi; he still only continues to think about himself and what he wants to feel better, and trying to force his feelings of anger on everyone else rather than getting over it to become stronger.

 

I compared Sasuke once in some ways to Vegeta, but at least with Vegeta, even if he hated Frieza for what he did to the Saiyans, and all the years he spent under his service, he didn't let that hate constantly consume him. The only real hate he had consume him for so long was his annoyance at Goku's growth, even with the respect he's shown for Goku and knowing Goku is better than he is in many ways. But it's also allowed him to grow in his own way, given his knowing he couldn't achieve Ultra Instinct like Goku could, so he was able to power up his Super Saiyan Blue form into a more perfected form.

 

That's what I feel made Vegeta much stronger than Sasuke; he was able to not let his hate always blind him to what he aimed for, and to be able to make something better for himself. That's why I feel Sasuke majorly fails as a rival character. Even in terms of it, Yuno in Black Clover is better since while he does sometimes look down on Asta due to his natural talent, he also respects Asta for his hard work, and the fact he's always ready to keep going in tough situaitons.



#50757 Phantom_999

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Posted 01 September 2019 - 12:34 AM

Thank you, and Like I said part 2 of that post WILL come out soon. :smile:


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#50758 Bryon_Konoha_Ninja

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Posted 01 September 2019 - 12:37 AM

Thank you, and Like I said part 2 of that post WILL come out soon. :smile:

 

Looking forward to it, dude.  :goodjob:



#50759 VanitasDS76491

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Posted 01 September 2019 - 11:43 AM

I just now realized something.
Proenders and Sakura haters keep saying that Sakura is horrible because she manipulatyed Naruto and lied to him. HOWEVER, they also say that Naruto never loved Sakura in the first place. Well, which is it?
You can't manipulate something that doesn't exist. So how can Sakura manipulate Naruto's feelings, but Naruto never having feelings for Sakura in the first place? Do you see the oxymoron I see?
So, there are three choices:
1. Sakura manipulated Naruto's feelings for her to get to Sasuke thus proving that Naruto had feelings for Sakura all along to be manipulated making Hinata the sloppy second; proving that Naruto never loved Hinata at all and he just settled for whatever he could get
OR
2. Naruto never loved Sakura at all like what Naruto the Last said in which he only wanted Sakura over a "rivalry game" and thus there is no way for Sakura to be a manipulator because Naruto never loved her in the first place.
or I just go with
3. Kishimoto retconned everything because he was told to and he stopped caring a long time ago thus destroying his story altogether.

Well done James and it's true you can't do both in this case.
Also I feel they say she's useless because they compare her feats to Naruto and Sasuke. I mean Sakura has impressive feats if you separate her from Naruto Sasuke and Kakash.

#50760 Phantom_999

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Posted 02 September 2019 - 01:02 AM

Okay folks it is time to continue my tirade!!! :hehehe:   :kukuku:

 

Hinata Part II- AND HERE IS THE KICKER we've all been waiting for. The part of the story where the shy cutie that "loves" Naruto blossoms and emerges from her cocoon to be a "huge breasted babe" that her fans are screaming at the  top of their lungs "Naruto MUST GET TOGETHER with this divine goddess by any means necessary because god help us, Naruto can not live without those "enormous fun bags"!! So we get the time skip to Part II/Shippuden,yada yada yada, Gaara is saved, Naruto an co. return and they now need a third member for their squad Naruto goes through his options because they are all not available or have other duties and obligations, then he runs into Hinata............. Who hides behind a fence and can't bear to look at him and faints when in his presence for two seconds.Then we cut to the Sasuke tracking/ Sasuke versus Itachi arc where team 8 is assigned to help out team 7 track down Sasuke and Hinata is put together with Naruto. Before I continue on I want to point out a few things first. Notice how interactions between the so called "love birds" have been kept to a minimal and their "reunion" is played more for comedy than anything? I see the danger signs here and I'm pretty sure all of you did too. Hinata is not given a prominence in Naruto's life nor is she showing to have an intimate understanding of him on any level. You don't even see any panel drawn with her reassuring Naruto, Sasuke will be found to show she understands Naruto thinks the world of Sasuke. There is no indication that she inspires Naruto like Naruto inspires her. So WHAT CHANCE is Kishi giving Hinata at this point? Sure, he is lumping the two together for a mission but is he giving focus on them or giving them an emotional connection? is he indicating that Hinata can be considered an importance in Naruto's life that he values her as a person beyond a friend and a believable romance can sprout from the two of them?

 

Moving on, we now have the Pain Invasion arc, where Nagato, his six rinnegan bodies and Konan plan to take Naruto by force, and very nearly succeed. In jumps Hinata who starts a suicidal confrontation with Pain and confesses her love for Naruto and being seemly killed in front of him and Naruto goes berserk and enters his eight tailed form. Hinata's fans treat this as the divine word of god that Naruto is meant to get together with his sweetheart that was always there for him, but guess what? There was a counter balance that rendered that entire argument moot. Sakura hugged Naruto in front of the whole village in the aftermath and there was no Jealousy or even anxiety across Hinata's face. Naruto did not ask for Hinata personally to give his thoughts or answer to her confession. Again, where is this chance Kishi is supposed to give Hinata in regards to love? there have been opportune moments to expand on these moments between Naruto and Hinata yet they were always absent and dismissed with no second thoughts. And let us NOT FORGET Naruto never addressed Hinata 's confession for two whole years after the fact as their "love story movie" can attest to. We now go on to the post events of the Kage Summit arc and notice again how much content I am skipping in between each of the scenes where Hinata is present. Naruto just declared that he would be the one to deal with Sasuke and requests for everyone to stay out of it. NO DIALOGUE from Hinata at all, She just stands there and lets Naruto speak, but shows no concern or even understanding that something is off about Naruto, but all of the other members are calling BS and demanding to know why. Even those that Naruto is not particularly close to argue with him on his decision and want to know his reasoning but Hinata just keeps her mouth shut. Where is the emotional connection again, I ask? where is the identification that Hinata is part of Naruto's inner world and is privy to how he feels and thinks to know something is off about him? Now skipping to the war arc Where Naruto has clones left right and centre to aid allies on the battlefield and obviously he runs into Hinata and they have a talk about how he thinks she is strong as she is. But no more than that, there was no addressing what ever feelings supposedly developed within him for Hinata and they just leave it at that. Then Neji is killed right in front of them and apparently that is meant to be the solidifying moment that they become a couple when Naruto and Hinata hold hands, but again these last two moments are offset by another moment between Naruto and Sakura. The ET (Edo Tensei) version of Minato, NARUTO'S OWN FATHER arrives where Naruto is being treated by Sakura. He then thanks Sakura for taking care of Naruto and asks if Sakura is Naruto's girlfriend to which Naruto contemplates what to say and ultimately goes with "sort of". Right after Minato see Sakura's fiery temperament, he is reminded of his own wife and tells Sakura he leaves Naruto in her hands. And where is the denial and correction if Naruto did not feel that way about Sakura anymore, and is now interested in Hinata? Where is the "No this is just my squad mate and friend, the girl that I like is over there"? Or at least Naruto saying no, Sakura is not his girlfriend to keep things ambiguous if that was the intent. We then move to the last two scenes of NaruHina moments before the big wedding, where Hinata's Infinite Tsukuyomi dream is her going out with Naruto and the scene that focuses on Naruto and Hinata during Neji's funeral. And again supposedly that is meant to be interpreted as Naruto moving on from Sakura, but again the movie called "The Last" says other wise. All of this occured before the events of that movie but Naruto STILL did not notice or care about Hinata's feelings until the middle of said movie.

 

Really I need not say more. The movie was a cheap  ploy to make Naruto and Hinata's romance believable and develop properly they say.  BUT WHERE is the development during the actual manga's run? I've mentioned time and again that any moment that occurred between Naruto, and Hinata could have been and SHOULD have been expanded upon if the intention was to make them a couple through natural story progression. Where are those moments? Why was "The Last Naruto the movie" Needed if Hinata was meant to be Naruto's love interest and the developments were there? And more importantly, WHY were the actual moments from the manga outright ignored during that movie? And no, the series is not about romance is NOT AN EXCUSE and I will  EXPLICITLY explain why with my next post On NaruSaku and anime/manga couples in general And MAN will that be my magnum Opus for NaruSaku arguments :yes:  


Edited by Phantom_999, 02 September 2019 - 07:07 PM.

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