31572 replies to this topic

[TouKen4Life3g]

Can we just say romance in here for present time at least was crap?

[gamma]

tbh

Edited by lux, 19 July 2017 - 10:53 PM.

[James S Cassidy]

@T XD:

 

There's relationship development, but there's no "romantic" build up for any pairing IMO. But if you want me to show the relationship progression, so that the romance can actually happen, I can work on a list of that. Probably what you meant anyway, I assume.

This whole quote is a....contradiction and circular logic. The whole time you talk about how there is no romantic build, then how did any of the pairings happen in the first place?

So are you admitting that NH and SS have no development at all and that the whole thing was forced? Because that is exactly what we all have been saying. Naruto the Last shoehorns in facts, bonds, and the like into something that didn't exist in the first place. Except you said it is not shoehorned in and it always existed.

Couple of posts earlier, you said there are plenty of moments and proof of said build up....so which is it?

You can't have it both ways. You can't have your cake and eat it too, but it seems not only do NH fans wants to have their cake and eat it, but also take a picture of them eating that cake while having it printed on another cake and eat that cake while their pictures is eating a cake. This is a problem with a lot of logic in this whole Naruto things....Apparently, scenes only count as romantic if Hinata does it, but if anyone else does it...it is not romantic or it doesn't count even when the characters do the exact same thing.

It's cherry picking.

It reminds of this argument with an NH fan I had where they kept talking about how Hinata tried to save Naruto and was courageous and loving for it, but forget that Iruka, Sasuke, and even Sakura herself have step in front of Naruto as well to "save his life" and they never bring this up. I am sorry, but you need to make up your mind on some of your logic because you are shooting yourself in the foot. Heck, SP tried to deny that Naruto is an alcoholic, but then use that alcoholism to explain why Naruto is home or sleeps on the couch. It is like cutting off your leg so you don;t shoot yourself in the foot.

I'll make it simple, NH is canon, but it is a miserable coupling with Naruto being a horrible father and Hinata a terrible wife. If NS and SK was canon, it would ahve solved 90% of the problems that this manga has and even saved a 2 hour movie. And they still could have made a new generation.

So here is a question I have for you.
What was so wrong about making NS and SK canon? How could the story have been worse if that was the ending? I can, as well as everyone here, explain quite thoroughly how the story could have been far better if NS and SK was canon. Many fans supported it just as much if not more than NH was and it wouldn't take much convincing to make it happen. Also, Kishimoto wouldn't need to keep making lies to cover up the mistake.


 

Edited by James S Cassidy, 20 July 2017 - 12:19 AM.

[BlueStarSaber]

Nothing considered, all things blank and equal, NS and SK work as canon.
 
Now through in how things were built up from 1-699, and NS and SK -don't- work as canon.
 
Essentially: Sure, just rewrite a significant portion of the manga, and you can do what you want.
 
And I'm talking about relationship build-up, as in ,the bonds between these two characters that form towrds love. But they aren't acting or building towards a "Let's date", as in there's no seeking to date, if that makes sense, like there is in the Last.
 
Is that more clear, or should I reword it?

Analyzer I have no idea who you or where you came from, but don't call yourself a narusaku fan, because clearly your not. Your ether just a NH & SS trying to cause everyone here trouble or at one point you were but you switched sides to join the bandwagon of the fans that supported the ending and I highly belive you more likely the former.

As no narusaku fan would ever say they was no build up in the hundreds of chapters naruto and sakura interacted compare the the twenty naruto and hinata interacted in. http://ourheaven-ear...ar-in-the-manga

Edited by BlueStarSaber, 20 July 2017 - 10:51 AM.

[ThroughWithLove]

I think that if you toned down on the passive aggressive responses, the martyr routine (i.e. you can't be bullied and I won't be bullied) and the tendency to fiercely defend NH/SS, you might have an easier time selling the notion that you like NS and that you aren't simply here for the purpose of stirring up trouble.  However, when you say stuff like "Sakura was arguably raising her hand during the Chuunin written exam to save herself and Sasuke" (an interpretation drenched with an extreme NH/SS bias), the ruse is simply ineffective. That scene is flat out about her wanting to not wanting to see Naruto's dream get crushed. If you were more consistent, you would simply say "That scene is simply proof of their friendship and nothing more", but you went the extra mile and for reasons I can only assume don't concern you being a "Reasonable NS Fan." 

[ThroughWithLove]

 

I think it's important to note that everyone's career was on the line (Seemingly), and that it may have played as part of the motivation. Though the key element, and the dialogue was more selfless, Sakura was acting because she didn't want to see Naruto crushed, but she didn't believe in his dream at this moment in time either. The moment is certainly about that, but I make the note because it is a fact their careers were in jeapordy as well if Naruto got the final question "wrong", though not a driving factor, if that makes sense. 

 

There's no NH/SS Biased to be had here, one, I'm not a shipper of either, two, they're both canon, so gaining these "upper-hands", which I think are immature, aren't very rewarding for them, and three: The moment itself doesn't infringe on these two pairings, Sakura can have friends and care about them? There's no ruse, and I don't mind re-clarifying that on every post if that worries you. 

 

There is absolutely no evidence that anything besides Naruto's dream played a role in her decision to raise her hand. None. Nothing. Nada. No thought bubbles, no flashbacks, nothing. She is confident in herself and Sasuke, but she's concerned about Naruto, as the chapter reflects. Prove me wrong. Show me where Sakura actions are based on saving herself and Sasuke:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Same goes for this notion that she didn't believe in his dream. If it's going to get crushed either way, she wouldn't raise her hand and there'd be no scene.

 

When you make arguments like this (essentially pulling stuff out of thin air), you've made it clear where you stand on things. Had you said "This scene shows their bond developing, but it not really proof of romance", that'd be fine. It would correlate with this whole "NS is my favorite relationship in the manga, but it never actually took off" mantra that you've repeatedly proclaimed. But when you go out of your way to dwindle a scene like this and pull stuff out of thin air to justify the dwindling, I'm hard pressed to think of any motivation besides simply being anti-NS. Sorry.   

 

 

 

I find myself "fiercely" defending these other pairings because the arguments made against them are incorrect, or just spite.

 

 

Problem is you've spent 218 posts doing this for like two weeks straight. That's a lot of passion to have just for the simple need to "correct other people's arguments" in regards to NH/SS on an NS forum. C'mon man.  

Edited by ThroughWithLove, 20 July 2017 - 05:21 PM.

[T XD]

Nothing considered, all things blank and equal, NS and SK work as canon.

 

Now through in how things were built up from 1-699, and NS and SK -don't- work as canon.

 

Essentially: Sure, just rewrite a significant portion of the manga, and you can do what you want.

 

And I'm talking about relationship build-up, as in ,the bonds between these two characters that form towrds love. But they aren't acting or building towards a "Let's date", as in there's no seeking to date, if that makes sense, like there is in the Last.

 

Is that more clear, or should I reword it?

In bold : Where is the relationship build up for Naruto and Hinata, the bond between Naruto and Hinata that form towards love, the building towards " Let's date "  between Naruto and Hinata in the manga ?

Edited by T XD, 20 July 2017 - 10:01 PM.

[Shadow1275]

 

I think it's important to note that everyone's career was on the line (Seemingly), and that it may have played as part of the motivation. 

 

He literally said walk out the door otherwise failing the test meant never becoming a Chunin period. The pressure was real even if the threat was not. 

 

And the fact that Sakura would put Naruto's dream above Sasuke and even her own is STAGGERING considering how she worshipped Sasuke in Part 1. There is no arguing that this is even remotely in support of SS. She was literally willing to defy Sasuke, who wanted to pass, in order to protect Naruto's dream.

 

 

And the build up of Naruto and Hinata is Laughable. Even as far into the series as the Last, Naruto still Loved Sakura and still pursued HER. In fact this fact is what made Hinata Mad in the movie bc Naruto wasn't even paying attention to her. It isn't until after a Pep talk from Suckura and a Genjutsu brainwashing montage where Naruto becomes romantically interested in Hinata. And to add insult to injury they completely forget the FIRST chapter of Naruto by making Naruto able to do Shadow Clones when he was 5 ("Saving Hinata from the bullies") when the first chapter was about him stealing a scroll that allowed him to make Shadow CLones specifically bc he couldn't even do regular Doppelgangers in Ninja School.

 

They literally crap on Chapter 1. NH/SS craps on Chapter 1.

[T XD]

Thank you for responding.
 

So this is my thoughts of NH progression. I like its progression, even though I think the pairing once realized risks a view of boring, the cliché father issues being the only flavor tossed in to it. I feel like some others do that NS would have more spice to it, that not a day wouldn't be interesting sort of thing. NS bias aside, let me focus on  the topic. 
 
So in a Nutshell, barebones layout sort of way, NH development is like this:

 What do you mean by " the cliché father issues being the only flavor tossed in to it " ?
 

1: We start with its base line, an Introduction that sums up it: "A weirdo who looks away when I look at her. A dark and shy girl." It's a quick and superficial introduction that establishes familiarity with her. So while this is -our- first official meeting with Hinata, its not Naruto's, thus Hinata's later inclusion in the first anime Episodes, before she vanishes for her proper introduction.

You mean the quoted phrase is not Naruto's thoughts of her ? If yes, then no, it's Naruto's.
 

2: The Written Exam: A moment of Encourage and Assistance from Hinata. Common for supporting characters to do this, it establishes a theme of Hinata's support style of risking herself and encouraging the protagonist. It also establishes that Naruto understands her a little bit, that she wouldn't trick him, We also see at this time she's one of a few select people who show concern for him early on. She's not confident enough mind to give her real reason on helping and encouraging him, so she panics when pressed. Naruto doesn't want to get in trouble and declines to cheat off her paper.

What every side character would do who supported Naruto from the beginning as you said.
 

3: There's a lot of little shots of Hinata, where you see her giggle and smile, the first to react to Naruto's fear over the last question, all these shots which seem odd for an unimportant or no long-term impact character. None of this is development per-se, but it is an argument against irrelevancy, in that irrelevant characters do not get these sort of panels. This is also one of the few moments where feelings for another character are played up serious. I think this sort of execution is forgotten when we draw our analysis from all 700 chapters, a mistake made, because there are so many chapters, and we get general and forget context.

Every side character gets little shots of panels and normal sized panaels, irrelevant or not.
 
Side characters are up for their feelings to be shown especially the ones who have feelings for the protagonist and main characters which is very possible at the same time that they will get bigger panels at some point/s later in a manga.
 

4: The Fight With Kiba shows us how long Hinata's noticed him, and that she already acknowledges him, and sees that he is strong, and Kiba is wrong about seeing him as weak through an internal monologue from her. Her peers? They're beginning to acknowledge him, to notice him. Hinata even cheers for him openly, and later, initiate contacts by giving him ointment. Mind, she does the same to Kiba and Akamaru later, which I point out to attack the Hinata only cares about Naruto point that is often used.

Here is where Team Kurenai begin to take some light during the Chuunin Exam. Kiba's and Hinata's interactions and thoughts of Naruto. Shino have few panels during these few chapters for much more irrelevancy from the author.
Many authors will set up specific side characters at some points during their writing as relevant, irrelevant and somewhere in between relevant and irrelevant, depending on their usage of them. In Naruto series, this axis is shown well at some points in the manga.
 

5: We have the Neji fight, which gives development the reverse way: Now it is Naruto cheering and pushing on Hinata, telling Neji off. Through him Hinata gains resolve to fight Neji. So Naruto goes from calling Hinata weird to nice to cheering for her, AKA., development. Naruto sees a part of himself in her, as he does in Sasuke, Haku, Gaara, Obito, etc, etc.

The Hinata part of Chuunin Exam match. Her character revolves majorly around Naruto. There's no other way for her to get something happening except Naruto's interaction. Kiba, Shino and Kurenai can't partake much more in relate to her than what we have seen. It's time for the Hyuuga issues in this part within the match and Naruto have to be included for Hinata's play.
 

Naruto becomes distraught when Hinata is injured (Sakura too, if I recall, FYI), Neji berates her once again, but now Hinata denies Neji's berating words and says not going back on her word, that is also her ninja way. We see Naruto's code is not only known, but also hers. Naruto states Hinata is incredible, Lee points out their similarity, and Sakura even points out that Hinata was always watching him. Naruto is wide-eyed and amazed. It's different than his other relationships at this point.

We know next everyone thinks its done, but Naruto keeps cheering her on. Hinata gains strength again, and Kurenai notes she's never acted like this, this encouragement of Naruto pushes her to a new height, this mutual bond that is forming. She gains confidence to shut down Neji's words, which prompt him to try to murder her. Later, as she slips into unconsciousness, it's notable its Naruto the last thing she sees, as it is notable the blood vow to take Neji down. This won't be the first time Hinata draws strong feelings in Naruto.

Most of this post gets the same previous reply as the latter one.
Her ninja way being same as Naruto's is not a development for NH if that's what you meant. It's Naruto's influence on her.
 
Naruto states other characters' achievements, similarities are abundant throughout the manga with some being about Naruto, and Sakura pointing out Hinata watching him doesn't make it a development with Naruto. There's nothing that Naruto came to see her in different light. It's not different than his other relationships. The most important relationships to him in life are with Iruka, Sasuke, Sakura and Kakashi. Naruto has mutual bonds with all the Konoha teams eventually.
 

Why does Kishimoto do this if its "irrelevant", if she's just a side character? Hinata has relatively few appearances, because she is a side character, but she stands out from other side characters to a degree and has a unique bond with Naruto. This theme runs through Hinata's presence in the manga, and its this sort of use, along with other additives, that creates the arrow points as they do at 700, and why you can't just "change a moment.".

She got her share in Part 1. She started standing out from other side characters from 437 and onwards to be in the same boat of relevant side characters as Shikamaru, Iruka, Tsunade, etc. That's not an arrow towards NH development. It's an arrow towards a side character getting spotlight during Part 1.
 
The only two arrows that got to 700 is Naruto being shown as a Hokage and Naruto getting Sasuke out of the darkness.
 

I'll try to get brisker, but we know next: The Day of the Finals, Hinata encourages Naruto wtih a proud failure speech, where Naruto at first shows this strong-guy attitude but it falters, silence, and Hinata thanks him for what he did. Naruto acts strong again, but then it falters, and he admits he's unsure, which is huge, because he never does this. Then Hinata reveals that she doesn't see him as perfect, her view of him is human and grounded. She's not inspired because he's flawless, or despite his flaws, but how he faces his flaws. This gets wide-eyed wonder Naruto again, another thank you, his cute comment of weird to someone I really like,before he goes to his fight.

And ? You got characters who did the same and more with Naruto from giving their speech to Naruto, gave speech about Naruto, helping him, being beside in tough times, encouraged Naruto, believed in Naruto, the ones who know Naruto completely, know he's not perfect, strong guy attitude faltered many times and was unsure many times, stand up to Naruto, thinking of Naruto, saving his life.
 
Saying I like you with non affectionate atmosphere to point at a feeling is not a moment nor a development. It's at most bonding and friendship.
 

So up to this moment, we have a lot of bottom heart acknowledgement, interaction, panel focus, the depth of her admiration, Naruto being amazed, Hinata growing from Naruto, Naruto making a blood oath, Naruto opening up to her, Hinata rebuildning his spirit. This is where my comment arises from, that if you went from part one to 700, Nwhile a lot of things would make no sense, NH's jump does, because of this establishment.

Neji's fight shows Kiba believing in Naruto, (Theme of acknowledgement, anyone), Hinata watching, Naruto reaffirms his blood oath, Neji monologues on, and Naruto says he understands his suffering, brings up Hinata's, calls Neji out on his poor treatment. It's worth pointing at the conclusion of the fight Naruto is looking for Hinata, wanting to know if she watched. Naruto is thinking of her.

We're just in part one, and I see this oh, only so many pages and moments interaction. It's not uncommon for side character love-interests to have low quantity, but a lot happening in that low quantity, and the low quantity is often exaggereated I find.

As an aside, at the end of Part 1, Neji is training with Hiashi. Changing of the Hyuuga anyone? There's NH at the end too, Hinata having visited Naruto at the hospital, and we watch her watch Naruto leave the village.

These are Hinata's share of light for side characters during Part 1. She can't have light shed onto her without including majorly Naruto in it. What she does without Naruto reciprocating at some points with romantic affection cannot be a romantic development of NH.
 
If you meant scientifically thinking of her as in he turned towards her when her issue with Neji was dealt with, then yes, he's thinking of her. This gesture is he wanted her to see that things are fine. You're taking every bit of what Naruto does as a sign towards a romantic NH pairing.
 

Part 2, we start with Naruto's greeting of Hinata when Naruto is looking for members for a mission. This is the first time Hinata faints, and the only time in the manga, FYI. This point, and in general for the rest of the rookies, is to show that they're all still there, IMO. Development stalls until the Itachi Pursuit Arc, where Hinata says she won't let Naruto down, and her feelings are clearly established again, and in character growth, she is more confident of herself than she was before.

That's not NH development. That's some light shed on Hinata regarding Naruto like the interactions you stated before during the Chuunin exam.
 

Then we have the Pain moment, probably the biggest moment in regards to NH, another saving and encouraging moment. This one brings Naruto darkness, with, it explicitly stated, the worst feelings he's ever felt, giving into Kurama and hate. I'm not going to touch this one too much, as I've discussed it heavily before, but simply, this scene shows that Naruto loved Hinata, from an NH arguing stand point.

Coming from a NH stand point, I can fairly say most have to bring out this moment and 615 to say Naruto loved Hinata. Or else, it would be straight to 700.
 
Naruto would've done the same reaction if any other character was in Hinata's place cause Naruto have shown numerous times that he did't take calmly anything negative towards his friends. Regarding Naruto submitting to Kurama and hate, he already done that before 437 for his friends.
 

There's 615, the meeting of Naruto before on the Battlefield, the Konhoa 11 rushing to Naruto's aid, with their internal monologues, there's Hinata combining the 64 palm with her lionfists, there's well essentially a lot more to get into.

What does that has to do with showing Naruto's romantic relationship development with Hinata, the bond between Naruto and Hinata that form towards love, the building towards " Let's date "  between Naruto and Hinata in the manga ? None of which Naruto has shown reciprocation.
 

Essentially though, there's one problem, I think, brought up by people in general: Why didn't Naruto respond sooner:

Naruto didn't respond at all. It was made in a movie to make NH by showing Naruto at some point starting to feel something for her.
 

Manga Hinata is actually pretty well done, all in all, and I hope these points at least help dispel some notions about lack of development and such.

As a side character and what her character is build on, yes, she got her chances. 
 
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You're taking every chance Hinata got to interact with Naruto and vice versa as a development for 700. These are not an arrow for the bond between Naruto and Hinata that form towards love and the building towards ' Let's date ' between Naruto and Hinata in the manga.
It's mostly Hinata's development when she gets her turn till she's seen later as a relevant side character that got some development, and Naruto getting to be supportive.
 
Technically by terms, there's no NH. There's "N"H in the manga before 700. In order for it to be NH, at least something romantic from Naruto has to be shown towards Hinata and at least something like blushing or thinking about conflicting ideas regarding her when something romantic being brought up, looking at her with affection. Things along those lines that one can take Hinata possibly being an interest to Naruto.
 
Taken how you see NH is the one being developed from what you told above, it should be very easy for you to see NS being developed throughout the manga. It doesn't add up when you say there's no significance for NS when you take the indications that supposedly say NH is the one.

Edited by T XD, 21 July 2017 - 09:51 PM.

[Yyubie]

And still dare to say "I'm NS fans but i like the ending and there's nothing wrong with it".

[Nate River]

I want to respond to a number of points and will when I have more time, but I am going to say thing:

 

For several pages I've seen a number of users tell Analyzer he isn't an NS fan or at least a true one. I LOATHE fans telling other people what they are a fan of and defining the proper bounds of what constitutes a true fan. This line of debate needs to discontinue. 

[BlueStarSaber]

I will admit perhaps we did go too far with the whole fan thing, given its an argument I hate myself

[T XD]

First, thank you so much for taking your time to respond.

Thanks to you too.
 

The quoted phrase is Naruto's, but this is not the first time Hinata and Naruto have met, was the statement. Sorry if that was written muddled.

If you're referring to The Last, I'm a person who follows the manga. Because the manga didn't state anything with Naruto and Hinata meeting before when she was introduced to us, I don't take it into account.
 

I disagree with the written exam of "Every side character would do this.". We haven't really seen any evidence of a side character risking their own advancement to do this, and frankly, Iruka/The Third Hokage couldn't be in this scene to make the fit. It's not a "I can replace". It works because of Hinata's early acknowledgement, and her shown feelings to him to make that want to leap.

That's not what I was saying. Every side character would get to support the protagonist at some point/s when a turn for them to do that is given to him / her in a major or minimal way.
 

Your next statement about side characters, is correct, but the point is to note the purpose of Hinata's side panels, they're building something up. There are other Side Panels from other Side Characters that build up other things, but Hinata's is specifically building up of a love-interest towards Naruto, through a show of her reactions and feelings to him, be it concern, or happiness to what goes on.

Every reader know since she's been introduced that she has feelings for him. If you mean other than showing how she views Naruto and a turn given for her, her panels will show feelings cause her character is based on her interest for Naruto in nindo and feelings. Most of her panels will have to be shown related to Naruto's nindo and her feelings.
 

On your next two, I'm not sure what you are trying to say, in your point. You're correct in your weight of side-characters, though supporting characters are always relevant, and Kiba/Hinata fit this, while Shino is not much of a supporting character, he does more or less aid in showing that "He hasn't seen this strength from Hinata before" reaction. I caution against the words "irrelevant", as "Irrelevant characters" should not be in a story.

What was this point that you didn't understand ?
 
Irrelevant characters can be in a story cause if they shouldn't or are not wanted, you wouldn't see them.
 

On your second part, unclear as well, but I want to say Hinata's match ultimately sets up Neji as a bigger antagonist/threat for Naruto, gives her growth, builds her more up as a love-interest, builds up the bond between Naruto and Hinata, and helps move Neji's little growth along as well. So I don't know think majorly around Naruto is accurate, as there are a lot of elements at play, most of all perhaps, the bigger set up of Neji as a threat more dangerous than his last, Kiba, and this love-interest element.

What was unclear ?
 
Majorly around Naruto as in her character revolves around Naruto.
 

You're correct on those additional arrows, but if you look at all the development and building of this love interest, exploding at 437 and practically cemented by her internal monologue when the K12 go towards Naruto in the war-arc, you'll see that its a clear suggestion of who Naruto will end up with.

Those goes from her role and point of view parts. Naruto didn't partake in any romantic build up with her in any of them. Those that you listed them till now can easily be countered with any other character who showed any exact same thing done by Hinata. If Naruto were shown at least to think of her other than a comrade then it is a yes. But, he hasn't.
 

You're correct that the meeting isn't really NH Development. It's a note in their history together, I.E., he does ask her to come along, she faints, and I point this out mostly, that her fainting is very, very flanderized in the anime.

Yeah. Naruto anime take some things in exaggeration with many characters.
 

The problem with your next statement, besides that we have nothing to base it off of, is that Naruto was feeling his worst feelings then. Kishimoto writes it in there: Worst Feelings Ever. If you recall at Neji's death in 614, when he saved his life for Naruto, he didn't have -that- reaction, he was devastated, until, notably encouraged by Hinata. So with instances as close as possible to this moment, you -don't- see this reaction. So it's very notable to point out here.

Which statement is the one that have nothing to base it off of ?

 

The worst feeling ever would be the same worst feeling when any of his friends were pounded during that moment of his against Pein with also Naruto still not shown seeing her in different light from this.

 

Naruto stopped subduing to Kurama when he was able to control him and later got to be friends with him which is why he doesn't subdue to Kuruma in 614.

 

Which reaction ? There were many reactions in 614.
 

615 has a ton to do with NH development, because it's another acknowledgement of Hinata from Naruto.

That's a Hinata development. She has learned from Naruto, got stronger and Naruto acknowledged her help. Other than that from Naruto's share in here, there isn't anything else. As a development for Hinata, 615 was an important step for her as a character getting stronger. Don't make it into another moment for NH romance.
 

Well, yes, Naruto didn't respond until the Movie really to say what he felt, and that is in the movie.

The movie was a mean for Naruto to start to feel something for Hinata.
 

I think self-development and development are both worth talking about. Because some of that self-development is from and influenced and encouraged by Naruto, so you see this transformation. (Neji plays a part in the 64/lion fist element as well, mind). So yes, I note both, but in these supposedly "non-developing events, is the Author trying to say: "Hi, this is the love interest", without being obvious about it, bar 437, 615, internal monologue, etc. This is pointing to the end as them together.

These are your view, take and saying for giving NH a development to be together.
 
If you want to take the author's sayings concerning the love interest, the same ways many authors do in their manga, it would be someone else.
 

No, love doesn't involve blushing necessarily, or even a romantic interaction. It involves a growing bond, that formed into love, because Naruto and Hinata fell in love with who they were. There was no romance shown, because there was no initiation to be romantic, in other words, the actions of the Last.

One has to see something from Naruto seeing Hinata in different light. Growing bonds happen to all protagonists with many characters.
 
You can't have a bond that forms into love with one romantically interested in another character whom didn't show anything back in the least way to the former character. You can't jump from friendship to show being a couple. That would be putting two together for the sake of putting those two together.
 
There was a well going initiation in romance in the manga especially from main characters. The Last is the start of NH.
 

I said it earlier, and that there is no romance in the Manga. Just relationship build up. 437 shows us that Naruto does love Hinata, even if it doesn't explicitly say "Naruto loves Hinata", it shows us instead. 615 does again, perhaps as well, though not as explosively as 437. I.E., 437 and 615 are your N to H moments. Blushing do not make those moments, and the best of NH moments don't involve blushing from Hinata's side either anyway (437/615 here).

Those are your take and view for NH development to be together. According to Naruto, he didn't show anything from what you what you stated.
 
It doesn't have to be an affection or romance all the time, but there has to be something to show us Naruto seeing Hinata other than a friend. For example, a known romantic implication from this specific character towards the other.
 

NS, sadly, was more or less faded due to the Fake Confession, where it establishes that, well, a lot of people don't really understand Naruto, and that Naruto's crush on Sakura was not a motiviation for him to save Sasuke. (The promise yes, but that's tied into his will to save Sasuke, but -not- the crush).

NS kept going well beyond 469. You can check them from the manga and you'll very much easily find them regarding how you take NH development.
 
A lot of people understood Naruto, and many of those Naruto's readers don't have to go online and type about him or NS. A lot of people is a big chunk of the Naruto fans to say they didn't understand from your view.
 

But yeah, good response, you didn't get angry, and I appreciate your level-headedness. So thank you for taking the time to respond, and for your next if you respond to this.

No offense. Yes, I didn't get angry, but you can't know if I got angry or not from typing something online. Just as I didn't know whether you're male or female, till I have read it somewhere here, cause males can like and put an avatar of flowers.

 

Thanks to you too for taking your time responding.

 

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You're taking solely Hinata's interactions with Naruto with no relation to context, to the roles of characters, and to Naruto's stand on the matter.

 

Edited by T XD, 22 July 2017 - 09:41 PM.

[Wubbzy]

Ah, so pairings aside, since this is the Naruto discussion thread...

I was thinking about Neji specifically and I was thinking what would have been nice to see for not only his character but the hyuuga main branch/side branch stuff. I would have absolutely loved a scene where Hiashi had sacrificed himself for Neji at some point during the war. Just as Neji's father sacrificed his life and saved Hiashi's life, I think it could have brought things full circle for Neji if Hiashi did the same for him, but for his nephew this time (and it could have definitely showed that the clan was changing and the whole main branch/side branch thing was resolved, although part one showed it a bit, this would have driven it home).

It kinda makes me so sad with Neji. I feel like it in a way paralleled what happened between Hiashi and his brother, but this was something I feel would be better if the same thing didn't get paralleled and it was actually either the other way around (with the whole theme of the next generation being the future etc.), but with Hiashi sacrificing his life (or at least defending) for Neji instead/ actually being able to protect him like he promised his brother.

Now that's just a wish but oh well. A girl can dream haha.

Just some thoughts.

[T XD]

 

The Manga shows us that they knew eachother when we meet them in the Chuunin exams. Sakura even -says- that Hinata was always watching him. And Naruto knew her name. So there's clear evidence that there is familiarity. The Last -suggests- and fills in what happened in one of these such meetings, and the Anime's first few episodes adds Hinata in as well. But it works, because the Manga says it happened, just does not describe it.

 

Fair, some supporting characters would do this, but not all. Hinata fits here, based on the set up. If you're going to do a change, you'll have to do an overhaul of the set-up. With a bit of change, I could make a nameless character do it, but what are there intentions? Hinata's is her feelings. None of the other K9 at the moment acknowledged Naruto fully. It's fair to mention Sakura was trying to help, but note she doesn't believe in Naruto's dream yet, and she's not a side character.

 

As for your next point, Every Reader knows she has feelings for him -now-, but if you're reading from that moment, those small panels build it up. It evolves and grows through the series.

 

An example of an Irrelevant Character would be a character in a background, they typically don't even get named. In the Chuunin Exams, Tenten does not fit Irrelevant, she helps set up Temari, even if its just a small thing, that is relevancy. Is it easily replaceable? Yes, but she also serves into the theme of Acknowledgement, and how she follows in Neji's support in the later battle against Naruto. Named characters are -almost- always relevant, serving some purpose, however small. I.E., the bandit is probably not important, Kate Foxgloves probably is.

 

How are you looking at revolving? In a sense, -all- Supporting Characters revolve around the Protagonist. Are you talking about goals? Hinata wants to improve herself, be stronger. This is -inspired- by Naruto, but its not a get strong for Naruto sort of goal, its for herself.

 

The next is impossible to prove: We only get this Worst Feeling Ever with Hinata. When his other friends actually die, we do not get this. So we cannot say it would happen if he were replaced. We can't. We can say though, it happened with Hinata, so we can say there is intense feelings at play here, and with all the other clue ins, we can say it is love. 615 is a hammer of this, and its why it is not Hinata development, because her actions change Naruto in this moment, I.E., he rises up. It is also Naruto development, to the point where he acknowledges her and thanks her. All in all, it is NH Development, not one-sided. The Last starts the romance part, but it really just shows Naruto what love is, so he can finally understand her feelings, and then his own. Whether or not that was the best way to do it, is debatable, but you can -see- things from naruto's side, particularly in his awe-struck expressions you get from certain moments with Hinata, and how he reacts. Saying I love you is very direct, and telling, but showing works just as well. So its there.

 

I disagree about much NS besides Red Herrings after 469. There friendship grew, but it was explicitly platonic from that point on, mind their usual jestful Red Herrings. Can you lay it out after 469? I might be wrong, and I would be happy to build more on my personal thoughts that Naruto did love Sakura somewhat, and it wasn't a crush.

 

Finally, the a lot of people don't understand Naruto was, and should have been written as: A lot of -characters- don't understand Naruto fully until later on (Though some  readers don't!), but to the characters. Sai, Sakura, even Sasuke did not fully understand Naruto during that Fake Confession Arc. Sasuke could not wrap around why Naruto still chased him, Sakura didn't understand Naruto was not doing it out of a crush to her, etcetera.

We're going in circles. You have specific view of side characters and the plot. I understood your point of view, but what you're saying is not backed up from the manga. It's your own interpretation about Naruto and the plot that is not backed up. Same with saying a red herring cause you think of it as a red herring : Nothing showed the reader that NS is a red herring from both Naruto and Sakura.

 

If you argued that 615 had a potential for Naruto, I would have said : ' It's possible if things would show us later how he changed his view for her in a romantic light in the manga ', which Naruto didn't say, act nor thought of that. But, when you say Naruto in 615 shows feelings for Hinata, I cannot take that from you cause there is no consistency nor a lead from previous lines to that.

Edited by T XD, 26 July 2017 - 05:35 PM.

[T XD]

 

What exactly am I saying that is not supported by the Manga? The Red Herring is backed up by the author's own words, so it's certainly a reference on what the interpretation is supposed to be.

 

The Lead up is there. It's a show not tell situation, the words aren't explicitly said, nor need to be. Taking it as a whole and what the Last tells us, it's not an invalid interpretation. 

What we were talking about all along ? Your claim that Naruto had a romantic development towards Hinata. A red herring doesn't consist of a heavy development like NS. A red herring is showing that a character have shown at least somewhere an interest towards another which none of that happened. What did the author say about red herring ? Link it to me.

 

It's a not tell situation and words aren't said : are your own projection concerning NH. Taking the manga as a whole, NH doesn't have a ground; As in Naruto's part doesn't tell, think or show having feelings towards Hinata, as in a reader doesn't see that he's beginning to see her in a romantic light.

If you've read other manga and watch other anime who have in part concerned with having a couple planned, there's nothing like NH cause it doesn't work with its context, consistency, two ways romance and the protagonist's stand on the case.

[T XD]

 

But NS doesn't have heavy development that implies they get together down the road, or enough to form a postulation for it. Everything post Fake confession is pretty much a Red Herring. It's a misleading clue, which Kishimoto usually shows is not a clue through humor, but not everyone sees that.

 

Read the 2014 Interview specifically, though the 2016/2017 interview is pretty much in line with it as well. I'm not familiar with the forum tools, but googling either one will give you that information, probably posted on the forum as well.

 

Anyway, NH is shown with intensity. You have it shown with Naruto's looks of admiration, which are really, the start of it. Then later, you have the Pain Arc, where it literally says that its Naruto's worst feelings he ever felt. But this line works, and this is the clue-in of love by the way, because of all the build/up interaction with Hinata in prior Arcs. The Last tells and shows us that Naruto did love Hinata, but did not realize that. The Book of the Last pretty much states this, the movie shows it.

Your point of view of NS and Naruto's feelings for Hinata are not depicted in that way in the manga. You're still taking things outside of context, characters' roles/ what they said / how they were depicted, and Naruto's stand on the matter.

 

The 2014 interview said Neji was used for Naruto to acknowledge her and as a cupid. Not Naruto having feelings for her. One could argue a potential for NH in the future. It's till 700 and The Last was made for Naruto to start having feelings for her and make NH.

Edited by T XD, 27 July 2017 - 12:15 AM.

[T XD]

I have reached the decision to end the debate cause we're going nowhere with this. Thank you for your time.

[TouKen4Life3g]

Kishimoto himself said Neji's death was done for NH hence chapter 615. It can't be speculated, it's now fact. Unless he lied but that's unnecessary. Well, that action was but you get my point. The sad thing is most of my argument is based on his own words, including infamous female characters writing.

[VanitasDS76491]

I have reached the decision to end the debate cause we're going nowhere with this. Thank you for your time.

I'm more surprised we can still agure with this person. Plus their claims about the last are brought in too late in the story with that movie and nothing in that makes sense. Talk to analyzer is talking to brick wall.