787 replies to this topic

[James S Cassidy]

...

Doesn't this contradict the original explanation of chakra's origins about it being the result of mixing physical stamina and spiritual energy together? Both of those fundamental traits are inherent to everyone. Yet from the information in this recent chapter the argument now appears to be that this mythical tree from eons ago was the progenitor of chakra and shinobi as a whole. That would suggest only those descended from this Kaguya person are able to use the tree's power. That is unless Kishi decides to forswear another already established development by having everyone become genetically related to the Sage.  

folklore

Not if you think of the tree like the tree of knowledge where Adam and Eve bit the apple and gained awareness of themselves. Plus, it falls under the realm of folklore as well. There are many questions even to the Adam and Eve story that are left opened and have no real answers to them. Like, if Adam and Eve had Cain and Abel, how did they continue to reproduce? Did the sons have to do the mother? And if they had daughters, did the brothers have to do the sisters and the father had to do the daughters?

So, at best it is a rough explanation and it could be that the Sage and his mother gave people the ability to access spiritual powers in the world as they were able to create the world as they see fit.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 10 September 2013 - 08:17 AM.

[Atheck]

Wow

Christianity?

Wow, Kishimoto is playing with not just japanese folklore, but Christain folklore too. The god tree? Sounds similar to the tree of life or even the tree of knowledge. We also have Jesus like being in Obito who produces powerful attacks through his palms like where Jesus was crucified. We also now have a woman who uses the powers of gods and has a son. Again, possible Virgin Mary and Jesus reference?

This is...wow. The chapter went by so fast and yet we learned so much. So many people dying and being sucked up into the tree. Shambhala? Life must be sacrificed to fuel the tree of life. (Mayan)

So much religious implications in this chapter alone.

Looks like you were right 4life about the third being alive.

Again, we see Sakura and not really anyone else. I know I might be starting something here, but come on Sakura gets mentioned a lot even in times when it seems superfluous. Kishi wants us to be aware of her for a reason.

i have to re-read before I can make a final assessment.

 

Responce

I doubt it's related to Christianity since it's a religion that has only a very small population in Japan. Moreover, Kishi's inspirations are related primarily to Eastern philosophies and mythology. It would be uncharateristic of him to implement tenets of a religion that he probably has little to no understanding of (beyond what the media in Japan has popularised like Christmas).\

 

This new development was probably inspired by some sort of Oriental folktale that we don't know about. Much like the Hare of Inaba story and its presumed connections to the Land of Waves arc.

[arian_rad]

So much religion...... it appears to not just be Japanese anymore either... the explanations in this chapter were very interesting. We also know the sages first and last name... and apparently he is related to all shinobi that use chakra..

[Otaru]

Wow

Christianity?

Wow, Kishimoto is playing with not just japanese folklore, but Christain folklore too. The god tree? Sounds similar to the tree of life or even the tree of knowledge. We also have Jesus like being in Obito who produces powerful attacks through his palms like where Jesus was crucified. We also now have a woman who uses the powers of gods and has a son. Again, possible Virgin Mary and Jesus reference?

This is...wow. The chapter went by so fast and yet we learned so much. So many people dying and being sucked up into the tree. Shambhala? Life must be sacrificed to fuel the tree of life. (Mayan)

So much religious implications in this chapter alone.

Looks like you were right 4life about the third being alive.

Again, we see Sakura and not really anyone else. I know I might be starting something here, but come on Sakura gets mentioned a lot even in times when it seems superfluous. Kishi wants us to be aware of her for a reason.

i have to re-read before I can make a final assessment.

 

my thoughts

At first, i thought like you --> christianity. but after read it all, and after i saw Kaguya Hime, I understood it was japanese folklore. Kaguya Hime is from japanese folklore, and there is something like "the tree of jewels" in her story. I should research that. But what Kishi wrote here is very similar to christianity. If someone have something about Kaguya hime tell us. =)

Edited by Otaru, 10 September 2013 - 08:26 AM.

[Toasty Warrior]

Wow... I honestly don't know what to say about this chapter. It's quite shocking what they revealed about the origins of the ten tails and man... everyone dying on the battlefield because their chakra was drained from them, what a way to go. I'm glad to see Sakura is still hanging in there despite being injured or just having her chakra drained thanks to the tree. Is it possible she could lose her seal because of the tree?

[Psychox]

folklore

Not if you think of the tree like the tree of knowledge where Adam and Eve bit the apple and gained awareness of themselves. Plus, it falls under the realm of folklore as well. There are many questions even to the Adam and Eve story that are left opened and have no real answers to them. Like, if Adam and Eve had Cain and Abel, how did they continue to reproduce? Did the sons have to do the mother? And if they had daughters, did the brothers have to do the sisters and the father had to do the daughters?

So, at best it is a rough explanation and it could be that the Sage and his mother gave people the ability to access spiritual powers in the world as they were able to create the world as they see fit.

hm..

This is interesting indeed , how did they continue to reproduce ? Wasn't that a sin ? hm... Not only that ,but that Kygua or w/e her name is does not relate to Christianity that well , maybe is something more eastern style ..

 

Edited by Psychox, 10 September 2013 - 08:22 AM.

[Dkey]

...

Doesn't this contradict the original explanation of chakra's origins about it being the result of mixing physical stamina and spiritual energy together? Both of those fundamental traits are inherent to everyone. Yet from the information in this recent chapter the argument now appears to be that this mythical tree from eons ago was the progenitor of chakra and shinobi as a whole. That would suggest only those descended from this Kaguya person are able to use the tree's power. That is unless Kishi decides to forswear another already established development by having everyone become genetically related to the Sage.  

or maybe

We don't know how humans originated in that world. Or how long it existed but probably it predated humankind.

As for that princess she may have acquired Jinchuriki levels of chakra and was able to win that war. Anyway quick search on wikipedia shows that their first names are linked to japanese culture.
The princess's name is linked to the moon, her son is the name of the kimono of Buddhist angels.

[Atheck]

folklore

Not if you think of the tree like the tree of knowledge where Adam and Eve bit the apple and gained awareness of themselves. Plus, it falls under the realm of folklore as well. There are many questions even to the Adam and Eve story that are left opened and have no real answers to them. Like, if Adam and Eve had Cain and Abel, how did they continue to reproduce? Did the sons have to do the mother? And if they had daughters, did the brothers have to do the sisters and the father had to do the daughters?

So, at best it is a rough explanation and it could be that the Sage and his mother gave people the ability to access spiritual powers in the world as they were able to create the world as they see fit.

 

The flaw with this is that man had existed before Kaguya ate the fruit. It doesn't explain how chakra could have been passed onto others when it was hereditarily acquired by the Sage. No reference to the tree's power being transferable outside of those related by blood to Kaguya was ever given. For that explanation to hold up everyone that uses chakra in the Naruto universe would have to  have married into the Senju/Uchiha/Uzumaki bloodline. Or in other words, everyone is distantly related to one of those three clans. 

[James S Cassidy]

 

Responce

I doubt it's related to Christianity since it's a religion that has only a very small population in Japan. Moreover, Kishi's inspirations are related primarily to Eastern philosophies and mythology. It would be uncharateristic of him to implement tenets of a religion that he probably has little to no understanding of (beyond what the media in Japan has popularised like Christmas).\

 

This new development was probably inspired by some sort of Oriental folktale that we don't know about. Much like the Hare of Inaba story and its presumed connections to the Land of Waves arc.

You'll find Atheck that many religions share common traits amongst themselves. If you do enough research, Christianity is not the only religion with the story of a tree, the first man(woman?), forbidden fruit, and foretelling of messiahs coming into the world. It could very well be that all religion is connected and have the same origin, but time, just like facts, changes things. Even in this universe, people forget the truths to what really happened. Madara says this himself.

I have a theory that all major religions are connected (save for Scientology and some that are barely 50 years old.) Sure, it might not be direct for Christianity, but come on powers come from the palms of the hands creating holes that look like nails used to crucify people? A tree with forbidden fruit that gains a knowledge that mankind is not really supposed to have? It's pretty hard not to make the connections.

However, you do have a point. Christianity is not the only religion, so perhaps it is not just Christianity it is referencing, but rather how all religions have a same basic origin story that eventually gets deluded and faded over time.

Ano did this with Evangelion, so why not Kishimoto with Naruto?

Edited by James S Cassidy, 10 September 2013 - 08:30 AM.

[Psychox]

or maybe

We don't know how humans originated in that world. Or how long it existed but probably it predated humankind.

As for that princess she may have acquired Jinchuriki levels of chakra and was able to win that war. Anyway quick search on wikipedia shows that their first names are linked to japanese culture.
The princess's name is linked to the moon, her son is the name of the kimono of Buddhist angels.

others have...

Made a theory or wild believe that there was no GOD there were just Those Who Came Before like in AC , but that's another story/game .

Still Kishi made it very cool if you ask me .

[morgaine4]

 

my thoughts

At first, i thought like you --> christianity. but after read it all, and after saw Kaguya Hime, I understood it was japanese folklore. Kaguya Hime is from japanese folklore, and there is something like "the tree of jewels" in her story. I should research that. But what Kishi wrote here is very similar to christianity. If someone have something about Kaguya hime tell us. =)

 

I'm reading this right now, don't know how accurate it is, as it is wikipedia, but apparently she was discovered inside a stalk of glowing bamboo.

 

 

The flaw with this is that man had existed before Kaguya ate the fruit. It doesn't explain how chakra could have been passed onto others when it was hereditarily acquired by the Sage. No reference to the tree's power being transferable outside of those related by blood to Kaguya was ever given. For that explanation to hold up everyone that uses chakra in the Naruto universe would have to  have married into the Senju/Uchiha/Uzumaki bloodline. Or in other words, everyone is distantly related to one of those three clans. 

 

Unless current shinobi are all descendents of people/families who were disciples of RS.  He could have transfered chakra to his students (assuming he did travel and teach Ninshu as Jiraiya said).

Edited by morgaine4, 10 September 2013 - 08:41 AM.

[Chatte]

Ok, I am sure now that Sakura will have something to do soon... About that interview I said earlier, I found it.

So in the interview was something along the lines:

 

2014 movie. [getting there] More deaths coming. [we had plenty] God's seat. Team 10 development.[had it] Hyuuga development.[had it also]

 

Many Japanese enjoy cherry bloosom viewing with sake and snacks from ancient days.

Sakura means cherry blossom in Japanese, and sakura has special meanings.

"Sa" means "God" in old Japanese, and "Kura" means "Seat" in old Japanese too.

Tottaly, "Sakura" means " God's seat".

[Otaru]

http://koei.wikia.com/wiki/Kaguya

 

"All of Kaguya's normal weapons are objects which are mentioned throughout Japanese mythology and have been worshiped since ancient times. Sakaki, also known as the Japanese cleyera, is thought to be a holy plant within Shintoism in which a god may reside. A branch from the tree separates mortals from deities, yet also acts as a physical bridge for them to connect to one another. It is often seen in shrines as a protective charm. Its distant cousin Japanese eurya, or Hisakaki, acts as her second level weapon. Due to their similar appearances both plants carry the same religious symbolism, except the eurya grows in the western islands unlike the cleyera in the east. The eurya's flowers are also used in the language of the flowers, representing a flower to appease the gods.

Her third level weapon is named after an evergreen banana tree. Within Japan, it is regarded as holy tree which is said to house the spirit of a god. It predates the cleyera's rite for the claim as it's argued to have been mentioned briefly during Amenouzume's dance to coax Amaterasu from her cave. The dancing goddess either used a branch of the tree or danced on top of it. Kaguya's fourth level weapon is mentioned within mythology the moment Amaterasu curiously peaked from the cave. A deity known as Futodama presented Ihotsu no Masakaki to her. The evergreen tree branch was adorned by the Yata-no-Kagami and magatama gems. The presentation of Ihotsu no Masakaki is thought to be the earliest mention of the tamagushi ritual.

Kaguya's second unique set of weapons tie her to the moon. Her first weapon mentions rice cakes which are made during the full moon to celebrate the Moon Viewing Festival. China uses it celebrate Chang'e while Japan's religious reasons for the festivities are to pray for a bountiful harvest. Both countries celebrate the festival on the August 15th, which is the same archaic date Kaguyahime left the mortal realm for the moon. Her second weapon is named after the shadow of the rabbit on the full moon. Since rice cakes are mentioned in her previous weapon, it's probable that the rabbit could have made them."

 

Interesting

Edited by Otaru, 10 September 2013 - 08:44 AM.

[Atheck]

You'll find Atheck that many religions share common traits amongst themselves. If you do enough research, Christianity is not the only religion with the story of a tree, the first man(woman?), forbidden fruit, and foretelling of messiahs coming into the world. It could very well be that all religion is connected and have the same origin, but time, just like facts, changes things. Even in this universe, people forget the truths to what really happened. Madara says this himself.

I have a theory that all major religions are connected (save for Scientology and some that are barely 50 years old.) Sure, it might not be direct for Christianity, but come on powers come from the palms of the hands creating holes that look like nails used to crucify people? A tree with forbidden fruit that gains a knowledge that mankind is not really supposed to have? It's pretty hard not to make the connections.

However, you do have a point. Christianity is not the only religion, so perhaps it is not just Christianity it is referencing, but rather how all religions have a same basic origin story that eventually gets deluded and faded over time.

Ano did this with Evangelion, so why not Kishimoto with Naruto?

 

I'm not going to let this devolve into a religious debate but I will argue that Kishi is selectively choosing his home country's personal mythos as the basis for his manga. That is the existing source material which he incorporated. The similarities may exist but they're likely only just coincidental as far as the Naruto series is concerned. It isn't reality but there is an underlying approach through which the author has chosen to take the series based off those belief systems. 

 

So in other words, even though I agree with your post's detailing about the relations between major religions, that similarity has no significance to Kishi. This http://en.wikipedia....iki/Kaguya-hime is apparently the information being used for this chapter.

 

That still doesn't account for the existence of chakra in everyone when it was only the Sage's mother that consumed the fruit. 

Edited by Atheck, 10 September 2013 - 08:44 AM.

[morgaine4]

Actually, some of the Mythology in this story seems similar to Chinese mythology (according to wiki again), I wonder if that could have influenced Japanese mythology?  I'm tryiing to find any Japanese tree of life mythologies...

 

In Chinese mythology, a carving of a Tree of Life depicts a phoenix and a dragon; the dragon often represents immortality. A Taoist story tells of a tree that produces a peach every three thousand years. The one who eats the fruit receives immortality.

 

Many religions have similar concepts, global cultural exchange isn't new (even though we often act as it is).

Edited by morgaine4, 10 September 2013 - 08:42 AM.

[Namaenash]

I think Sakura is injured, but her chakra wasn't drained. You can see that those people who have been drained were not glowing anymore --Sakura is still glowing. I think this is a plot to make Sakura unable to heal Naruto ;( too bad, I was expecting them to work together as a team... Hopefully I'm wrong and Sakura make a badass move next week...

[Nostradamus]

Ok, I am sure now that Sakura will have something to do soon... About that interview I said earlier, I found it.

So in the interview was something along the lines:

 

2014 movie. [getting there] More deaths coming. [we had plenty] God's seat. Team 10 development.[had it] Hyuuga development.[had it also]

 

Many Japanese enjoy cherry bloosom viewing with sake and snacks from ancient days.

Sakura means cherry blossom in Japanese, and sakura has special meanings.

"Sa" means "God" in old Japanese, and "Kura" means "Seat" in old Japanese too.

Tottaly, "Sakura" means " God's seat".

 

Ok so what are you implying?

[Chatte]

 

Ok so what are you implying?

That there's a damn link to it which I am trying to find.

Plus, flowers and blooming? Sakura is all about flowers and her bloom.

I feel like she's going to be more and more into it starting now.

Hopefully though... and kishi doesn't screw it up.

[Psychox]

I think Sakura is injured, but her chakra wasn't drained. You can see that those people who have been drained were not glowing anymore --Sakura is still glowing. I think this is a plot to make Sakura unable to heal Naruto ;( too bad, I was expecting them to work together as a team... Hopefully I'm wrong and Sakura make a badass move next week...

Yep, how bad is she hurt we still don't know , she will heal fast since there is Kurama's chakra covering her  , plus , she can release her seal whenever she wants to .

[Atheck]

Even though it's difficult to make out her forehead, I don't see any marking. Could it be that Sakura depleted her seal's chakra supply to rescue herself and/or others?