127 replies to this topic

[Khaleesi]

America, you know you are doing it kittening wrong when this happens:

 

cynicism

Edited by theunburnt, 25 November 2014 - 08:24 PM.

[Lady Lys]

In all honesty, I think that out of all the people in the planet That Man has the least rights to say anything. They still have concentration camps in North Korea, so the fact that Kim Jong Un is even trying to advocate anything about human rights is just plain laughable.

 

But, yes, the situation is dire, even here in Italy we have the 'Ferguson situation' on the news practically every day. Something should of course be done, but as I said Kim Jong Un is the last man on the planet who should be able to say something about human rights.

[Khaleesi]

Exactly because of that, this is so kittened up.

[Lady Lys]

I don't know, you may be right, but at the same time I can't take what Kim Jong Un (psycho!dictator of North Korea) said without raising my eyebrows an thinking "Oh! Look who's talking!"....I mean It's like Hitler telling the Palestinian that they are being too mean to the Jews.... a WTF-inducing moment.

 

Still, as you said, the situation is kittened up. 

[Pix]

I have something to say for those who read this. 

 

You will never. Ever. Ever. Understand...what it means to black in the America....unless you are black in America. 

 

Never. 

 

This is my everyday life. Michael Brown is my everyday life. When my father died, the police threw his case aside and told my mom he was a "nuisance". But I bet you with every dollar I have that if my father was white the police would have been found his murderer. 

 

I used to hate myself because I grew up in a black household and I'm mostly black. I wanted to identify as anything else. I used to lie to people who asked me what ethnicity I was and told them I was either full Native or mixed with something other than black. That's what internalized racism does to you. It teaches you that you will never amount up to the white person next to you, no matter what you achieve in life. 

 

And knowing that people can just kill you and people who look like you and get away with it time and time again? Do you all understand the mental strain that holds on black people like me???

 

My brother told me last night about him and my dad having the "talk" when he was younger- the talk that every black boy has because he's told that he has to be careful around the police and white people as well. I thought every person went through this?? But to find out that mostly black people have to do this while other "races" live freely?? 

 

Race is the worst thing humanity ever created. It's a horrid mentality that continues to reside deeply in all mainstream societies today. Black people around the world go through too. much. kitten.

[questdrivencollie]

Well, I'm not black, and I can't claim know what black people face from other people. So I won't try. And neither will I try to deny it--because you're absolutely right, there's no way I can know what it's like.

 

However, I do like to look at both sides in a situation...

This was really hard for me, because sources I trusted and with the same political association as me, libertarian, pretty much agreed that this was a case of police brutality.

And it was interesting, the complete different of viewpoints there've been on this on different forums...one completely conservative, the other main forum I use more of a mixed response, others more of a liberal response...I didn't find myself in completely agreement with either major side. This is usually the case for me.

 

The conclusion I came to months ago on this situation was that the man responsible deserved a fair trial, just like anybody else, and as the US Constitution demands--so I objected to the public outcry to have him executed before there was a court ruling.

While I definitely didn't want the guy to get off scott free if he was guilty, a look at physical evidence and hard facts is most important, y'know?

 

I can't say I ever came to a conclusion on what I thought about the situation itself, if the guy was guilty or not. I've read a lot from both sides, observed the debates. Including some opinions from former police officers, who understand what these kind of situations can be like. They are allowed to defend themselves with deadly force--as for if there was a need for defense, there were conflicting reports about that.

 

 

Let me say this--the first time I heard about this, I was at class. My teacher showed us a video.

Now, my teacher is black. I think he's a very intelligent guy and I respect him a lot. He showed us the video about what happened. A couple actually, I think. And he had us considering both sides--told us that there's no way we know the whole story, and how the video couldn't tell us everything.

 

 

Let me say this, also--the news media is there to get views, plain and simple. Don't kid yourself into thinking they won't play on emotions--they most certainly do--all of the news networks. Try to look past that and into the facts. Racism is still alive, I'm not going to deny that--but when the news does use it as an appeal to emotion (which I believe is considered a logical fallacy) before all of the facts are known, they are cheapening the effect of the word and not doing you justice at all.

 

 

I don't really have a set opinion on this yet, even now. I see both sides, am hesitant to pick one.

However, I definitely believe we have the right to protest the court's decisions--we're the people, we have a voice in our government. But, I also cannot support those attempting to accomplish this in a violent manner. Mike Brown's family requested that protests be peaceful--please honor that.

 

I hope I don't seem disrespectful. I'm just trying to offer some thoughts.

I'm not really a fan of arguing, either. I hate being at odds with people. So I'm hesitant to even post this. I know people have strong views on this...understandably so, since a death was involved.

Edited by questdrivencollie, 25 November 2014 - 02:09 PM.

[kidNinja]

I have something to say for those who read this. 

 

You will never. Ever. Ever. Understand...what it means to black in the America....unless you are black in America. 

 

Never. 

 

This is my everyday life. Michael Brown is my everyday life. When my father died, the police threw his case aside and told my mom he was a "nuisance". But I bet you with every dollar I have that if my father was white the police would have been found his murderer. 

 

I used to hate myself because I grew up in a black household and I'm mostly black. I wanted to identify as anything else. I used to lie to people who asked me what ethnicity I was and told them I was either full Native or mixed with something other than black. That's what internalized racism does to you. It teaches you that you will never amount up to the white person next to you, no matter what you achieve in life. 

 

And knowing that people can just kill you and people who look like you and get away with it time and time again? Do you all understand the mental strain that holds on black people like me???

 

My brother told me last night about him and my dad having the "talk" when he was younger- the talk that every black boy has because he's told that he has to be careful around the police and white people as well. I thought every person went through this?? But to find out that mostly black people have to do this while other "races" live freely?? 

 

Race is the worst thing humanity ever created. It's a horrid mentality that continues to reside deeply in all mainstream societies today. Black people around the world go through too. much. kitten.

 

 

I can vouch for this. It ain't easy being black in America.

[Khaleesi]

Sorry, but I can't understand how can you even "think" of what "side" to chose after you know that Michael Brown had his hands up and the police man shot him 6 times. 6.kittening.times. 

 

Edited by theunburnt, 25 November 2014 - 06:34 PM.

[questdrivencollie]

I don't wish to argue, but I did mention that my knowledge of the situation is partly off hearing some former police officers talk. People who have had police training and been in threatening situations where lethal force was necessary. I heard from some of these people even after the autopsy and bullets information was released, too.

And not all accounts support that he had his hands up. Some say he didn't at all, others say it was only for like a split second.

 

Understand, I'm not trying to defend anybody. I just don't want to mistakenly rally support behind either guy if they may be in the wrong. I understand the gravity of these situations--and police brutality certainly does happen. I saw a video of a police officer entering a guy's house without a warrant and arresting him without explanation just last night. Sick.

I just don't want to come to a conclusion based off an appeal to emotion--this was declared to be racially motivated long before we had many facts to go on, after all. Looking at the facts impartially is paramount.

 

 

I understand that by posting in a highly sensitive topic I'm kind of asking for it, but please don't kill me. Perhaps I made a mistake by posting in this thread, maybe I should just leave it alone...I'm sorry.=/

Edited by questdrivencollie, 25 November 2014 - 07:11 PM.

[Khaleesi]

What? It's nothing about of how delicate this topic is, but because I can't understand your logic. Tell me, how an unarmed black teenager gets shot 6 times? HOW? And how white mass murders are arrested peacefully? Tell me this isn't about racism. 

Tell me what justification do you have for someone to shot him 6 kittening times. Tell me. Tell me how is possible that someone who was "trained" for this situations CAN'T handle one unarmed person.

Explain me this: http://www.msnbc.com...b--359100995999

Explain me this: 

 

You are practically saying the same as them: "Unfriendly reminder that there had to be a trial to determine not whether an unarmed black boy was violently murdered or not, but whether he DESERVED to be violently murdered."

 

Sorry but there is zero excuse for this. "The St. Louis County grand jury that declined to indict a white police officer in the shooting death of Michael Brown, an unarmed black 18-year-old, heard wildly contrasting testimony, including witness accounts that the hulking Brown was charging at Officer Darren Wilson when he was shot, and Wilson’s own claim that Brown taunted him as he grabbed for his gun, saying, “you are too much of a pussy to shoot me.” "

[Nate River]

I don't wish to argue, but I did mention that my knowledge of the situation is partly off hearing some former police officers talk. People who have had police training and been in threatening situations where lethal force was necessary. I heard from some of these people even after the autopsy and bullets information was released, too.
And not all accounts support that he had his hands up. Some say he didn't at all, others say it was only for like a split second.

If you are having that much heartburn over it, go review the evidence for yourself. I believe it was made public.

[questdrivencollie]

Again, I heard from trained police officers how this may have been justified, even with the knowledge of the number of shots. I could try to dig up their posts from other forums, if you like. Though it may take me a while, as this was several months ago.

 

As for other cases...I'm not in any way saying that racism is never involved. But that not everything is reported in the media...again, the news media is there for views, and they tend to select what is most likely to catch people's eyes and emotions. This case was reported right off the bat as racially motivated, when there's no way they could have known that. That doesn't mean it wasn't, but it does show how the news media uses these things.

Plus, picking and choosing other cases to bring into this is not necessarily representative of the majority of cases. One can say anything they want through picking and choosing. 

 

I'm sorry, I guess I'm asking for a bit of understanding. Tone is hard to read over the internet, but I find high conflict discussions like this pretty stressful and my stomach is literally churning. I guess I'm just asking not to be torn apart for not chiming in with the majority.

 

If you are having that much heartburn over it, go review the evidence for yourself. I believe it was made public.

I saw a video summarizing it this morning.

Edited by questdrivencollie, 25 November 2014 - 07:48 PM.

[Khaleesi]

Again, there is nothing that could make it justified. And the word of the cops it's not the most reliable source.

Then again, the media is the one who hide information. I gave you an example of how MASS murderes where arrested peacefully, and a black teenager didn't. And are you trying to tell me you are looking for proofs? Are you trying to tell me something can justify murder? You just can't be neutral on this :S I'm seriously disgusted.

[questdrivencollie]

Found one:

 

said: ↑

...Head shots are not standard. Police are taught...to aim center mass.

 said: ↑

I'd be curious to hear the view of someone who has served in the police force.

 said: ↑

As would I. Has anyone seen an interview like that?

Ok, since you asked... I worked an entire career as a street cop in Los Angeles, mostly the hotter (more violent) areas. The above comment about head shots is completely untrue. When everyone carried .38+P or .357 mag ammo it's true that only center body shots were taught and authorized. But when they switched to 9mm (a much weaker round) as the officer in question here was carrying, it was found that many times center body shots weren't effective anymore. The training became to take 2 quick shots to the center body mass hoping that the impact of 2 bullets in rapid succession would stop the suspect. If that failed, then the official tactic was to take a shot to the head. Since no one is a perfect aim (except actors in movies and TV shows) and it's commonly impossible to tell exactly where your round hit the suspect until after everything is done), if he is still coming at you it is proper to fire more rounds, preferably to the head since the upper body shots didn't work.

Depending on the true circumstances, 8 shots may not be at all improper. I personally know one officer who was attacked by a violent angel dust suspect, and he fired 17 of his 18 rounds into the suspect before the suspect could be stopped. I asked him what stopped him from firing the last round. He told me that had the 17 rounds not worked, the last round was for his own head rather than let a violent animal like that take him.

So there ya have it.

[Khaleesi]

And? I repeat this for you: Are you telling me he couldn't handle one unarmed teenager? 

[questdrivencollie]

All I'm saying is we don't know the whole story. If the guy was charging him, as some reports have said, and if the officer did fear for his life, it is conceivable. The guy was big, and who's not to say that a flesh wound wouldn't have stopped him? Also keeping in mind I have very little idea what it's like to be in that kind of situation. Which is why I sought the opinions of people who DID know what that was like.

 

Please don't back me into a corner, man. All I'm doing is offering a different perspective...I'm not saying I necessarily agree with it, I'm just saying that the world is a complicated place, these things aren't always so simple. I'm as against racism as you are, it's disgusting. But I'm also against falsely charging people based off emotional charge.

But I suppose if what I'm saying still upsets people, nothing I can say will help that. It's not my intention, honestly. But if all I'm going to do is up the heat in this thread, I will leave. I don't like arguing with people I honestly enjoy talking to. I'll see if I can find the other posts I spoke of, and I'll just post those before leaving this thread alone entirely.

Edited by questdrivencollie, 25 November 2014 - 08:09 PM.

[Khaleesi]

It is confirmed the teenarger was unarmed and with his hands up. There are witness that can confirm this. This isn't about sentimentalism. You can't justify this. The white dude even said that he shot him because the teenager tease him that he won't do it, MAN. 

 

Are you even trying to tell me that you are looking for things that can "justify" that police brutality??? And you are denying all the evidence I'm giving you? Why don't you "research" of how black people is treated in America. If you want to understand the "both" sides, why don't you look for how is the situation for the victims instead for the murderer?

[Khaleesi]

Sorry, but I can't take you seriously. You should be outraged, angry, ashamed and terrified by this called "justice". He isn't the first one, and he won't be the last.

Edited by theunburnt, 25 November 2014 - 08:21 PM.

[questdrivencollie]

Fair enough, I guess. Seems like an impasse.

 

Couldn't find the posts I mentioned--they were on a different forum than the last, and much more scattered.

 

Thanks for the discussion. Sorry to have bothered you.

[Pix]

All I'm saying is we don't know the whole story. If the guy was charging him, as some reports have said, and if the officer did fear for his life, it is conceivable. The guy was big, and who's not to say that a flesh wound wouldn't have stopped him? Also keeping in mind I have very little idea what it's like to be in that kind of situation. Which is why I sought the opinions of people who DID know what that was like.

 

Please don't back me into a corner, man. All I'm doing is offering a different perspective...I'm not saying I necessarily agree with it, I'm just saying that the world is a complicated place, these things aren't always so simple. I'm as against racism as you are, it's disgusting. But I'm also against falsely charging people based off emotional charge.

But I suppose if what I'm saying still upsets people, nothing I can say will help that. It's not my intention, honestly. But if all I'm going to do is up the heat in this thread, I will leave. I don't like arguing with people I honestly enjoy talking to. I'll see if I can find the other posts I spoke of, and I'll just post those before leaving this thread alone entirely.

The whole story. 

 

The whole story. 

 

That's all I keep hearing.   

 

The whole story. 

 

But the only thing that matters to me is how an unarmed teen got shot 6 times. 6 times. There could have been just a warning shot. There could have been a taser. Hell Darren Wilson could have drove off and requested back up. 

 

But 6 times.  

 

And I don't mean to corner you either. I know you're trying to explain your opinion but being neutral on this situation is the same as being supportive of Darren Wilson. At least two black bodies are killed every week since 2006. Think about that.