54175 replies to this topic

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

we need more that are evil just cause they want to be and don't care who they hurt

Which is why I wished Madara had been like this. It would have made him the penultimate villain to be someone who basically had good intentions but then just because evil AF because of a taste of power and all that jazz.

[Bail o' Lies]

i feel naruto lacks villains that just want to be evil. I mean image tenpenny from gta in naruto dude's so evil naruto wouldn't be able to use talk no jutsu on him. i miss those villains

I'd say Kaguya was evil for the sake of being evil if only because Kishimoto cared so little about her, he didn't bother with a tragic back story like he does all the other villains except Hidan, Mizuki, and Gato.

 

Like Sushi said Kishimoto liked beating in the message he had for every villain. The true villain is the ninja system with the antagonist being victims of the ninja system. Naruto would also be just like them if he gave up but he doesn't because X. So, realizing this Naruto tries to help the ones he can to not give up as well; redeeming them.

 

I think many NH fans are just incel Naruto fans. They're not Hinata fans. They bashed Sakura for not loving Naruto, for being a jerk to him. OK, same logic: They didn't care about Naruto ignoring Hinata for the whole manga, or for forgetting her confession and the apparently wonderful childhood time they spent together. They just really liked Hinata's feelings for him. 

 

Vanitas: The real villain was the shinobi system. That was how it was written. And T7 realized that early on, they even talked about how wrong it was. Because of Zabuza and Haku. They were onto something ya know. Then Nagato, Obito, Sasuke, even Madara - is written as a victim of the same villain. Kishi really loves repeating things to shoehorn his message. His original themes were surpassing the previous generations, their mistakes and so on. Do what they couldn't. He does this with parallels as well. Naruto and Sasuke would see eye to eye, the way Madara and Hashirama couldn't, and Naruto and Sakura would start a family in the newfound peace, the way the previous couples were killed by war. I really like Sasuke the revolutionary and Naruto the reformist - it'd be interesting to see how they meet halfway. But the shinobi system still exists in burrito. Naruto's conclusion was to endure it. Because the words shinobi and endure have the same kanji or something.

 

The ending to me, is somewhat realistic - because justice doesn't always win, and love doesn't either. But it's not a shonen ending at all. 

The problem with it was that Kishimoto by the end forgot what Naruto was actually going to do. He spent so much time building up the great final fight between Naruto And Sasuke he forgot to think of anything that came after, nor did he think of anything when the executives decided that they wanted to changed the story to more hinata focus to appeal to western fans.

[VanitasDS76491]

Which is why I wished Madara had been like this. It would have made him the penultimate villain to be someone who basically had good intentions but then just because evil AF because of a taste of power and all that jazz.

did he start out like that i forget. to be honest madara was kind of a boring villain mostly cause he was so broken and his plan is so dumb.

 

I'd say Kaguya was evil for the sake of being evil if only because Kishimoto cared so little about her, he didn't bother with a tragic back story like he does all the other villains except Hidan, Mizuki, and Gato.

 

Like Sushi said Kishimoto liked beating in the message he had for every villain. The true villain is the ninja system with the antagonist being victims of the ninja system. Naruto would also be just like them if he gave up but he doesn't because X. So, realizing this Naruto tries to help the ones he can to not give up as well; redeeming them.

 

The problem with it was that Kishimoto by the end forgot what Naruto was actually going to do. He spent so much time building up the great final fight between Naruto And Sasuke he forgot to think of anything that came after, nor did he think of anything when the executives decided that they wanted to changed the story to more hinata focus to appeal to western fans.

maybe but like tenpenny has a character and personality and development kaguya is basically nercon from ff9 shoved in at the last minute.

Also hinata focus was only the bs movie after that nothing and nothing since then 

[NaruSaku fan in Kentucky]

That's why early Disney villains like Jafar was the best. They were so evil just for being evil.

[Bail o' Lies]

That's why early Disney villains like Jafar was the best. They were so evil just for being evil.

Early? He was a renaissance era villain from the nineties. Early would be more The Evil Queen from Snow White.

 

But what you're going with is their is something enjoyable about Villains being evil for the sake of being evil. Now a day every villain isn't evil or has some sob story that justifies it; unless their a cheap strawmen target. Which is an attempt to try and make their stories deep but just comes off as less interesting.

[VanitasDS76491]

That's why early Disney villains like Jafar was the best. They were so evil just for being evil.

frollo to 

[sushi.]

I'd say Kaguya was evil for the sake of being evil if only because Kishimoto cared so little about her, he didn't bother with a tragic back story like he does all the other villains except Hidan, Mizuki, and Gato.

 

Like Sushi said Kishimoto liked beating in the message he had for every villain. The true villain is the ninja system with the antagonist being victims of the ninja system. Naruto would also be just like them if he gave up but he doesn't because X. So, realizing this Naruto tries to help the ones he can to not give up as well; redeeming them.

 

The problem with it was that Kishimoto by the end forgot what Naruto was actually going to do. He spent so much time building up the great final fight between Naruto And Sasuke he forgot to think of anything that came after, nor did he think of anything when the executives decided that they wanted to changed the story to more hinata focus to appeal to western fans.

I mean, I like the idea. Corrupt governments are so fun. But Kishi is good at abandoning plots in the middle of it. Narusaku is a scrapped idea too, because people didn't respond the way he wanted to. I think Kishi is very vurnerable to criticism, or gets tired of his stories.

 

I think it all went downhill after pain arc. Obito is just not my dude. And Orochimaru is an ally of konoha in the burrito series, lmao? Zabuza and Haku were great villains. Their story was gut-wrenching, yet their actions weren't excused. It evolved into a pity party. Just imagine Sasuke saving Danzo from the darkness and calling him good or something. Makes you wonder who's really lost it. In the end I got confused whether Naruto was supposed to save people from loneliness, or crush the system that breeds that pain. Sasuke and Nagato were in the "darkness", but they had a point. 

 

And I understand the repetition, but every villain had to be the "same" as Naruto, and Naruto was almost the only lonely guy not a villain. Those that suffered under the shinobi system differently than him didn't get the same emphathy. Half of the hyuugas had seals on their foreheads that the other half could snap their fingers to activate, which would cause tremendous pain used to control them. Hinata's dad once used it on Neji because he beat her in a fight. And Naruto told him during their match that Hinata had suffered just as much as him. Her pain was just more similar to Naruto's, but nowhere near as Neji's. It makes him dying for these two people even more sick, and Naruto's TnJ borderline narcissistic.

[Bail o' Lies]

I mean, I like the idea. Corrupt governments are so fun. But Kishi is good at abandoning plots in the middle of it. Narusaku is a scrapped idea too, because people didn't respond the way he wanted to. I think Kishi is very vurnerable to criticism, or gets tired of his stories.

 

I think it all went downhill after pain arc. Obito is just not my dude. And Orochimaru is an ally of konoha in the burrito series, lmao? Zabuza and Haku were great villains. Their story was gut-wrenching, yet their actions weren't excused. It evolved into a pity party. Just imagine Sasuke saving Danzo from the darkness and calling him good or something. Makes you wonder who's really lost it. In the end I got confused whether Naruto was supposed to save people from loneliness, or crush the system that breeds that pain. Sasuke and Nagato were in the "darkness", but they had a point. 

 

And I understand the repetition, but every villain had to be the "same" as Naruto, and Naruto was almost the only lonely guy not a villain. Those that suffered under the shinobi system differently than him didn't get the same empathy. Half of the hyuugas had seals on their foreheads that the other half could snap their fingers to activate, which would cause tremendous pain used to control them. Hinata's dad once used it on Neji because he beat her in a fight. And Naruto told him during their match that Hinata had suffered just as much as him. Her pain was just more similar to Naruto's, but nowhere near as Neji's. It makes him dying for these two people even more sick, and Naruto's TnJ borderline narcissistic.

I think I pointed out and some older member popped in a year or two ago agreed that Kishimoto has problem with follow-through. He will introduce an idea or character it would be well received but unless he becomes obsessed with it the plot ends once that arc ends. The only story that continued non-stop was the set up for the final battle between Naruto and Sasuke and that was abandon by the end because he lost the plot to Hinata's "international appeal."

 

Of course it went downhill after the Pain arc, he lost the editor that was keeping him together and focused for nine years in exchange got 15 or so editors fighting him to get the title changed to Hinata for the next 6 years.

 

The problem with Villains and any message that suppose to be had from confronting them is, The protagonist is suppose to find an answer by the end. This is a problem with most recent stories is that they focus so much on the villains and making them sympathetic or something that they forget about the protagonist.

 

In the case of Naruto his whole the villain is the ninja system and each of his antagonist where just victims of said system means, he as the protagonist needed to find an answer on how to change it to stop people like the people he fought from happening again. Yes, it nice he can talk down some from that path but what happens after he is gone? No real answer only platitudes, which is why he looked weak in debate against a lot of the villains especially Sasuke during their final fight, its why he seems to have done nothing by the ending of the manga, and why he continues to be a failure in Boruto. He also fails to embody his own message. Why did Naruto never give up? Well, he never gave up because he never gave up and something about that being his ninja way. Which makes him a very flat character with very little growth potential because we don't understand what made him different other then he was. Which when you put up against people that have deep reasons why they are they way they are makes it even worse.

 

As far as that Neji bit sounds like it was from the anime so blame them.

Edited by Bail o' Lies, 08 September 2021 - 09:33 AM.

[BlueStarSaber]

As far as that Neji bit sounds like it was from the anime so blame them.

I belive that might the 2 part hanabi episodes they did which just kissed up to hinata as usual.

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

And I understand the repetition, but every villain had to be the "same" as Naruto, and Naruto was almost the only lonely guy not a villain. Those that suffered under the shinobi system differently than him didn't get the same emphathy. Half of the hyuugas had seals on their foreheads that the other half could snap their fingers to activate, which would cause tremendous pain used to control them. Hinata's dad once used it on Neji because he beat her in a fight. And Naruto told him during their match that Hinata had suffered just as much as him. Her pain was just more similar to Naruto's, but nowhere near as Neji's. It makes him dying for these two people even more sick, and Naruto's TnJ borderline narcissistic.

Just look at virtually every "main" antagonist Naruto faced off against - someone who on some level is similar to himself - Haku, Gaara, Nagato, Sasuke, etc. - and he's willing to risk it all to help them. Anyone else? Look at Koyuki in the Land of Snow movie. Naruto, on a personal level, couldn't give two craps about her and her home's situation. He's only finding her and helping her because it's his job. He literally says so and looks annoyed doing it.

[sushi.]

The Neji bit was a mangapanel. I remember because I recently read an anti hyuuga analysis, and I can try find it if you want. The part about the seal and how main house members could control the branch was in the same post. Hiashi used it against kid Nej, he then fell on the ground holding his head while screaming. And once Hinata turned 3, Neji was "assigned" to her as a bodyguard/servant/slave. Yeah..: / I had forgotten most of these scenes so I didn't know how bad the hyuuga slavery was. So it was always strange that Neji befriended Hinata after his match with Naruto, when Hinata hadn't done anything to change their positions, and Naruto clearly didn't understand him, like he understood the villains that resembled him. Promoting Hinata to love interest/heroine could actually make that plot relevant again. It's not enough to put flowers on Neji's grave.

 

And I didn't know Kishi lost his editor! It surprised me for a second but it all makes sense. I think very little of the ending was planned, probably the final fight, becoming hokage etc. So that the couples weren't planned either isn't really a radical statement.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

did he start out like that i forget. to be honest madara was kind of a boring villain mostly cause he was so broken and his plan is so dumb.

Well, I think he came that close to it initially from what the flashbacks we saw hinted at as well as what Itachi was telling Sasuke to try to give him his version of the truth to him.

 

 

Just look at virtually every "main" antagonist Naruto faced off against - someone who on some level is similar to himself - Haku, Gaara, Nagato, Sasuke, etc. - and he's willing to risk it all to help them. Anyone else? Look at Koyuki in the Land of Snow movie. Naruto, on a personal level, couldn't give two craps about her and her home's situation. He's only finding her and helping her because it's his job. He literally says so and looks annoyed doing it.

 

True, but that also stemmed from Koyuki's attitude, and then how it turned out later on where he is telling her to stand up and not run away anymore from her problems and her past, which inspires her because of his actions and his tenacity too.

[VanitasDS76491]

Well, I think he came that close to it initially from what the flashbacks we saw hinted at as well as what Itachi was telling Sasuke to try to give him his version of the truth to him.

 

 

 

True, but that also stemmed from Koyuki's attitude, and then how it turned out later on where he is telling her to stand up and not run away anymore from her problems and her past, which inspires her because of his actions and his tenacity too.

he had more personality when he first met hashimara 

[Bail o' Lies]

The Neji bit was a mangapanel. I remember because I recently read an anti hyuuga analysis, and I can try find it if you want. The part about the seal and how main house members could control the branch was in the same post. Hiashi used it against kid Nej, he then fell on the ground holding his head while screaming. And once Hinata turned 3, Neji was "assigned" to her as a bodyguard/servant/slave. Yeah..: / I had forgotten most of these scenes so I didn't know how bad the hyuuga slavery was. So it was always strange that Neji befriended Hinata after his match with Naruto, when Hinata hadn't done anything to change their positions, and Naruto clearly didn't understand him, like he understood the villains that resembled him. Promoting Hinata to love interest/heroine could actually make that plot relevant again. It's not enough to put flowers on Neji's grave.

 

And I didn't know Kishi lost his editor! It surprised me for a second but it all makes sense. I think very little of the ending was planned, probably the final fight, becoming hokage etc. So that the couples weren't planned either isn't really a radical statement.

Manga panel? Find it, because it was his father in the manga not Neji. Again, a lot of that is from the anime. Neji being her bodyguard was again from the anime.

 

...They put flowers on Neji's grave both in 699 and 700.  

 

As for what happened in the Neji vs Naruto fight. At the time the only thing was Naruto hearing Neji's tragic backstory which led to Naruto's argument where yes he had a kitten past but that doesn't excuse him beating up Hinata who is also a victim of the their clan's system. Of course this was when the plan at best was to make Neji stop being an ass and he would be the next Clan Leader by being adopted by his uncle and marrying Hinata ending the branch seal system. 

 

...I can't tell if you forgot or don't know, so. In WSJ, mangaka have editors for about 2 years before they are switched out with new blood. Kishimoto was an odd case where for the first 9 years till right before the Pein arc he had one editor Yahagi. Yahagi after 9 was promoted to Editor and Chief of another manga magazine Shueisha owned. In comes the new editor that suggest the Hinata scene and afterwards declared Hinata was the new heroine. Him and Kishi got into arguments and for the next 6 years Kishimoto was constantly having new editors after getting into arguments with the previous one. By the end, he went through about 14-15 in 6 years. Which means those editors average about 4-5 months tenure instead of the normal 2 years.

Edited by Bail o' Lies, 10 November 2021 - 01:59 AM.

[sushi.]

manga panel? Find it, because it was his father in the manga not Neji. Again a lot of that is from the anime. Neji being her body guard was again anime.
 
...They put flowers on Neji's grave both in 699 and 700.
 
As for what happened in the Neji vs Naruto fight. At the time the only thing was Naruto hearing Neji's tragic backstory which led to Naruto's argument where yes he had a kitten past but that doesn't excuse him beating up Hinata who is also a victim of the their clan's system. Of course this was when the plan at best was to make Neji stop being an ass and he would be the next Clan Leader by being adopted by his uncle and marrying Hinata ending the branch seal system.
 
...I can't tell if you forgot or don't know, so. In WSJ, mangaka have editors for about 2 years before they are switched out with new blood. Kishimoto was an odd case where for the first 9 years till right before the Pein arc he had one editor Yahagi. Yahagi after 9 was promoted to Editor and Cheif of another manga mazaine Shueisha owned. In comes the new editor that usggest the Hinata scene and afterwards declared Hinata was the new heroine. Him and Kishi got into arguments and for the next 6 years kishimoto was constantly having new editors after getting into arguments with the previous one. By the end he went through about 14-15 in 6 years. Which means those editors average about 4-5 months tenure instead of the normal 2 years.

Youre right about the torture, it was Hiashi that performed the jutsu against Hizashi while Neji watched. But Naruto still said Hinata suffered as much as Neji. Which is explained here. And this was after Neji told Naruto the whole deal and he still didnt listen. https://leportraitdu...naruto-had-been

Edited by sushi., 09 September 2021 - 11:10 PM.

[Bail o' Lies]

You're right about the torture, it was Hiashi that performed the jutsu against Hizashi while Neji watched. But Naruto still said Hinata suffered as much as Neji. Which is explained here. And this was after Neji told Naruto the whole deal and he still didn't listen. https://leportraitdu...naruto-had-been

Again, look at the scene. Naruto doesn't deny he suffered, but he points out Neji is not the only one who is suffering. Has a seal that makes everyone see you as less then Human? *Points to Naruto*

 

Naruto point is that both sides are suffering due to that clan's caste system. Hizashi was made a slave that exists to die for his brother, and Hiashi had to watch his brother die for him. Neji is a born genius that is held back by being of the lesser branch, Hinata is a failure that struggles to met the demanding expectations of the main branch. 

 

The problem is Naruto promised to help fix it but that was abandon & buried with Neji's death because they didn't want the heroine to have the awkward "former slave master" title attached to her.

[sushi.]

Again, look at the scene. Naruto doesn't deny he suffered, but he points out Neji is not the only one who is suffering. Has a seal that makes everyone see you as less then Human? *Points to Naruto*
 
Naruto point is that both sides are suffering due to that clan's caste system. Hizashi was made a slave that exists to die for his brother, and Hiashi had to watch his brother die for him. Neji is a born genius that is held back by being of the lesser branch, Hinata is a failure that struggles to met the demanding expectations of the main branch. 
 
The problem is Naruto promised to help fix it but that was abandon & buried with Neji's death because they didn't want the heroine to have the awkward "former slave master" title attached to her.

You said two of the scenes I mentioned were anime only and when I offered you evidence you demanded I found it. It doesnt hurt to be polite, ask or give thanks. Then I showed you the panels and you changed your point entirely. You know that I never said Naruto denied Nejis pain. He acknowledged it, without expressing sympathy. Had his words been somewhat different, like «I understand your pain but your cousin is hurting as well», itd be easier to stomach.

Hinatas pain is due to neglect because she was an underdog, not because of the branch system. We dont know how the system makes Hinata feel. And Hiashi was head of the clan, he wasnt made to kill his brother. He did it on his own accord. He never showed internal struggle or hesitate, he was in favor of the system.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

Again, look at the scene. Naruto doesn't deny he suffered, but he points out Neji is not the only one who is suffering. Has a seal that makes everyone see you as less then Human? *Points to Naruto*
 
Naruto point is that both sides are suffering due to that clan's caste system. Hizashi was made a slave that exists to die for his brother, and Hiashi had to watch his brother die for him. Neji is a born genius that is held back by being of the lesser branch, Hinata is a failure that struggles to met the demanding expectations of the main branch. 
 
The problem is Naruto promised to help fix it but that was abandon & buried with Neji's death because they didn't want the heroine to have the awkward "former slave master" title attached to her.

  

You said two of the scenes I mentioned were anime only and when I offered you evidence you demanded I found it. It doesnt hurt to be polite, ask or give thanks. Then I showed you the panels and you changed your point entirely. You know that I never said Naruto denied Nejis pain. He acknowledged it, without expressing sympathy. Had his words been somewhat different, like «I understand your pain but your cousin is hurting as well», itd be easier to stomach.
Hinatas pain is due to neglect because she was an underdog, not because of the branch system. We dont know how the system makes Hinata feel. And Hiashi was head of the clan, he wasnt made to kill his brother. He did it on his own accord. He never showed internal struggle or hesitate, he was in favor of the system.

Guys, guys, guys! Let's not get into an argument. Bail,sushi, you both are right about this discussion.

[Bail o' Lies]

Guys, guys, guys! Let's not get into an argument. Bail,sushi, you both are right about this discussion.

I didn't even realize we were in an argument. I'll try to end it with this post.

 

You said two of the scenes I mentioned were anime only and when I offered you evidence you demanded I found it. It doesn't hurt to be polite, ask or give thanks. Then I showed you the panels and you changed your point entirely. You know that I never said Naruto denied Nejis pain. He acknowledged it, without expressing sympathy. Had his words been somewhat different, like «I understand your pain but your cousin is hurting as well», itd be easier to stomach.

Hinatas pain is due to neglect because she was an underdog, not because of the branch system. We dont know how the system makes Hinata feel. And Hiashi was head of the clan, he wasnt made to kill his brother. He did it on his own accord. He never showed internal struggle or hesitate, he was in favor of the system.

The thing is you kept saying that you had evidence of Neji being abused by the Hyugga clan in the manga; beyond what happened in the Neji fight flashback. I said that's unlikely since after the Neji fight the hyuuga plot stops being relevant at all to the manga, and was likely filler from the anime; which I don't care about. You insisted that you had manga panels. I said show them. Now granted I doubted their were panels but I may have been wrong. Then, you said, you didn't have the panels, that it was likely from the anime, and then had that tumbler link.

 

So, I figured the discussion was over and it was best to move on to the other topic you had. The tumbler topic talking about the Neji fight.

 

Now here is a series of question I like you to think on before you post a reply. Can only the oppress suffer? Are oppressors immune to all forms of suffering because they are "oppressors?" Is it impossible that both the oppressed and oppressors are merely trapped in a corrupt system that they don't know how to fix/end or even if they can try? Are the oppressed completely justified in anything they do to their oppressors?

 

Naruto did sympathize with Neji but he felt that his suffering did not justify him being an ass, and he wasn't the only person to suffer neither in life nor the hyuuga clan situation. So if he was such a genius he should try to change it and Naruto would help once he became hokage.

 

Hinata is a failure because she fails to live up to the expectations that she had as the clan heiress therefor losing the position to her younger sister. You cannot separate her being a failure and her failing to live up to the expectations of her clan as the main branches' heiress, because that is why she is a failure as well as the cause of all her suffering.

 

Hisashi did not kill his brother but he could not stop that his brother was sacrificed for him and had to live with that. He did not want him to die. Him bowing his head to Neji after his fight is proof of that. Have you forgotten that scene? He wanted to end it he just didn't know how and was stuck in a bad system he didn't know how to fix. Same with his brother. Same with Neji. 

 

And again, all this was abandon because they didn't want the heroine and mother to the sequel protagonist to have the awkward "former slave master" title attached to her.

[sushi.]

  Guys, guys, guys! Let's not get into an argument. Bail,sushi, you both are right about this discussion.

oh I'm very nice until someone else is not.   It's not about being right or wrong and I can handle a disagreement. But it's easy to see if someone wants a showdown with you or have a chat. When someone posts a thought out analysis, and the other says "Do you actually mean *insert outrageous opinion*?", people will never stop clarifying themselves. That Cathy Newman interview with Jordan Peterson rings a bell. So if I think only oppressed people can be sad..you decide.

 

In any case, Naruto unfairly compared two struggles when they were apples and oranges. I understand that the ending butchered the characters, but the hero and heroine never brought the branch system up again, and Neji dying for them makes it even worse --- so they deserve all my booing. : )