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#53461 VanitasDS76491

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Posted 26 November 2021 - 08:17 PM

 

I can't believe I am saying this, but Hannah Montana in Disney had a triangle love that did it right and probably could have worked her. 
There was two boys she liked and had feelings, but she couldn't decide. Eventually, she had both their pictures on her bed trying to make up her mind. Eventually, she went outside to clear her mind when a gust of wind blew one of the pictures out the window and into her lap. Now you can see whose picture it is and she puts on a smile and you think "this is the guy she chose." Nope, she goes to the guy of the picture and tells him "I'm sorry, I can't be with you. You're a great guy, but when I saw your picture and wondered would your face make me smile everytime I wake up in the morning and it doesn't. It is not someone I can wake up with so...I am choosing the other guy."

Writing was a little sloppy, but the message I felt was heartfelt and made sense. She wanted the person who made her happy even just by waking up in the morning and it wasn't him. I think that is how they should have handled it: Where she sees Sasuke and realizes she doesn't make her smile like Naruto does.
 

 

 

A lot of Hallmark movies are like this. but she always chose the other guy (naruto) because she realizes even if her lust in place for the one guy, her heart was in another because she only thought what she wanted and not what she really needed. She is reminded of a feeling that she doesn't feel with Sasuke, but she does with Naruto and that is how they SHOULD have done it. 

What does Sakura feel with Sasuke? I don't see it. She doesn't feel protected. She doesn't feel loved. She doesn't feel anything really. She just feels empty and unsatisfied while both the fanbase and her lying to themselves saying "there is something hidden we can't see." No. You have to show me that, not tell me that and then show the opposite. 

 

 

This was an idea I have been pushing for a while. The Naruto and Sasuke fight should NOT have been the end.

 

 

Goku has one thing in common with Sasuke....according to them they both have never kissed their wives and they both weren't there when their kids were born.

 

or james like i said on the podcast power rangers did love and relatioships better heck r.p,m did it better with dillon and summer



#53462 Bryon_Konoha_Ninja

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Posted 26 November 2021 - 08:28 PM

or james like i said on the podcast power rangers did love and relatioships better heck r.p,m did it better with dillon and summer


Even Super Sentai can do it better.

#53463 Phantom_999

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Posted 29 November 2021 - 05:24 PM

For me, this, writing wise, was the one of the worst things he did. Some of my favorite moments from this series were Part 1 instances of Naruto's selflessness. Regardless of how the pairings turned out in the long run Naruto did a number of things for her because he believed it would make her happy, even at his own expense. I think the hospital scene was where he became convinced she loved Sasuke and wasn't going to love him. Though he would have gone for Sasuke regardless, he made the promise he made to her because he cared about her. Her happiness was his priority not whether he ever won her affection. In Chapter 3, he empathized with her pursuit of Sasuke. 
 
It's evident he knows what love is and knows its not just his love his Ramen. This feels like a homage to Goku thinking marriage is food, but it doesn't work here because its clear he knows what it is and he's nowhere near as socially inept as Goku is. It really can't be reconciled cleanly with anything that happens before that, but to the extent any reconciliation is possible, it makes him look terrible and ruins many of his best character moments. 
 
This is one of the reasons I feel, that if NH fans want they can have him. I have no interest in this version of Naruto being paired with anyone.

 
 
Exactly. what was so insulting to me and why I stopped supporting the series definitely when that movie came out was that it destroyed everything that made Naruto's character. It destroyed the POAL, It destroyed the notion of Naruto and Sakura even seeing each other as friends and just lumped in together for convenience because of the commonality connection to Sasuke, and hell, ultimately showed us that Naruto is not only a love ignorant simpleton, but ultimately is a self serving one so who can actually support him anymore after that movie? ALL. BECAUSE. the very notion that Hinata is a silver medal or replacement love interest had to be eradicated from the face of the earth. it is one thing to ruin a character for a crack pairing romance. It is an entirely different thing to destroy the very message of the story because of it and make the Main character's motivations you've been sympathizing with end up as self-convenient hypocrisy. 

 

 

 

And that's the problem because in order for Naruto to "love" Hinata, he had to receive a character assassination by making him or similar to Goku. That was the most stupidest move SP did on their end because they want to be a cash cow like Dragonball, (not mention listening to the radical/otaku fans thinking that "Hinata receiving a role upgrade = money"). However, that was a dumb move because the franchise were already in that status, especially in the West. 

 

The franchise and Naruto's characterization would had been fine and stay in tact if SP (along with the editors and Shueisha) left it as is, so we could had a least decent sequel /Part 3. But nooooooooo.....  :roll:

 

That would be putting it lightly, I'm afraid. Naruto did not receive mere character assassination, his character was nuked to oblivion. Every character trait that made him the sympathetic underdog that we were rooting for all these years was atomically blown apart. He didn't  understand what romantic love was so the POAL was rendered pointless so who is he to talk about whom Sakura loves? He fell in love with Hinata because everyone TOLD HIM she was his soul mate or is some political benefit to his chances of being hokage, and most insultingly of all, Naruto "Mr. my ninja code is never backing down and giving up" Uzumaki fell into despair and gave up on saving his world when his  "trophy wife" Hinata rejected him and left with another man so bonds don't mean jack kitten compared to his trophy wife. This after he was brain washed into pity accepting her feelings for never noticing them before by the way. And I say trophy wife because everything in this movie was as cringing and forced as you get, cramming every shojo genre trope ever made into an hour and a half laughing stock of a spectacle. If Hinata was not a trophy wife, this movie wouldn't have been needed in the first place, and I say this completely without bias. The aftermath of this movie is the "proof in the pudding"

 

 

It still amazes me on these romance stories where the people constantly say "I am doing this to make the other person happy." It sounds selfless on the surface, but in reality it is the most selfish thing to say to someone. You don't know what really makes another person happy. The biggest happiness you can give someone is a choice. 

The ironic thing is is this discussion is constantly pushed around in the story, but never done practically.
Naruto wanted Sakura to be happy, but he never told her how he felt.
Sakura wanted Naruto to be happy, but never asked him how he felt.
Sasuke constantly told Naruto and Sakura how he felt, and they literally ignored it in favor of what they wanted for him.
Hinata is the most selfish out of all of them, because she didn't care about anyone, but herself. Everything she did was for her infatuation, not for her love. If it really was about Naruto, she would have let him feel how he wanted instead of brainwashing him.

Hinata is the most selfish because she only cares about herself

Next is Sakura because she keeps pushing how she wants both boys to feel to the point that they have no say: "Sasuke you HAVE to love me because I love you. Naruto you HAVE to love Hinata because I love Sasuke and I don't want to feel guilty about not loving you."
Naruto is selfish because instead of living the life he wanted, he lived a life everyone told him to live whether they did consciously or sub-consciously
Sasuke is actually the least selfish in this context because he didn't care how anyone else lived as long as they didn't get in his way of his goal which they constantly did. 

Compare this to Ochako with Deku. She loves Deku, but she has her own career to look into. She supported Deku in many ways and even changed a few things to support him...not because she wanted to be noticed and loved by him, but because she legit wanted to help him. THAT is is selfless love and even though she may get jealous and envious every now and them...that is just her being her.

It amazes me how Sasuke was literally open since day 1 with Naruto and Sakura and they both just legit ignored everything Sasuke was saying.

Team 7: "Sasuke, what do you want in life?"
Sasuke: "My family was murdered by my brother. I want to punish him and try to bring honor back to my family for the betrayal. I want to know the truth"

Naruto: "Man, Sasuke is a mystery. I don't know what he wants in life. I wish I was him and be popular"
Sasuke: "No, I want justice for my family and clans murder. I don't care about popularity, I just miss my family."

Sakura: "Sasuke is in love with me and he probably is too scared to admit"
Sasuke: "I actually don't care about you and have no feelings. I just want my family back."

Kakashi: "Sasuke probably just wants friends to be around since I lost mind and am miserable alone."
Sasuke: "That sucks, bro, but I just want to avenge my family."

Actually, thinking of it this way, I can see why people like Sasuke because he was being the most truthful one who actually had a legit goal. Sure, I don't agree with how Sasuke went about it, but I get it. 

 

WHAT AMAZES ME is that these same fans preach about true love, But Naruto does not know what true love is unless it involves his soul mate, Hinata. the foundation and building of their relationship was always there and is only invisible to any ignorant buffoon not preaching about their red string of fate since they were both born. they don't need to bond, they don't need to communicate or develop together, they don't need to lay themselves bare to the other, and see if they accept and be accepted because that was done off panel apparently.

 

And what is even more effing hilarious is that Naruto and Sakura's potential romance is fanatical nonsense and that every supporter is a gullible dumb-kitten to have ever believed in it but if you apply that same story anywhere else AND THEN  it is the development of true love :lmao:  :lmao:  :lmao:  :lmao:

 

I am so done with this series. Except to mock it. :party:


Edited by Phantom_999, 29 November 2021 - 05:35 PM.

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#53464 Bail o' Lies

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Posted 29 November 2021 - 09:39 PM

I object to the idea that The Last was about Naruto getting a trophy wife.

 

The last was about two things. One, to make it clear that Hinata was NEVER Naruto's second option/silver medal. No matter what had to be removed, erased, abandoned, or ret-conned to make it happen. And, two, Hinata was the most perfect woman/princess/goddess/queen to ever exist EVER and the story was about rewarding her for trials and tribulations -of doing nothing- by giving her the man she was entitled to.

 

Hinata was not the trophy wife. Naruto was the trophy husband; who should be grateful that he is allowed to be with such a perfect woman. 


Edited by Bail o' Lies, 30 November 2021 - 05:12 PM.


#53465 James S Cassidy

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Posted 29 November 2021 - 11:14 PM

Hinata was not the trophy wife. Naruto was the trophy husband; who should be grateful that he is allowed to be with such a perfect woman. 

It was a trophy husband story of them trying to convince a man that he got a trophy wife. 


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#53466 Bryon_Konoha_Ninja

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Posted 30 November 2021 - 08:41 AM

It was a trophy husband story of them trying to convince a man that he got a trophy wife. 

 

Pretty much, man! And the rest of the cast trying to tell Naruto to do what he should do.

 

 

I am so done with this series. Except to mock it. :party:

A lot of us are, Phantom, and to remember the good times. Also, I got one question to ask--- are you gonna share that popcorn? :smile:



#53467 VanitasDS76491

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Posted 30 November 2021 - 10:35 PM

It was a trophy husband story of them trying to convince a man that he got a trophy wife. 

or as deathstroke in the injustice games called wonderwoman a rebound girl



#53468 Bail o' Lies

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Posted 01 December 2021 - 01:35 AM

or as deathstroke in the injustice games called wonderwoman a rebound girl

No. No. The entire point of the last was to make sure Hinata was never called something like the rebound girl, and technically she isn't because Naruto and Sakura never dated. The back up? Yes. Rebound? No.

 

It was a trophy husband story of them trying to convince a man that he got a trophy wife. 

It is more a story that's trying to convince the audience that a guy is getting a trophy wife while subtly trying to convince/gaslight them on how perfect the woman is and how much she deserves the man of her dreams. What Naruto thinks about the situation is almost irrelevant. 


Edited by Bail o' Lies, 01 December 2021 - 04:21 AM.


#53469 James S Cassidy

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Posted 03 December 2021 - 12:30 AM

No. No. The entire point of the last was to make sure Hinata was never called something like the rebound girl, and technically she isn't because Naruto and Sakura never dated. The back up? Yes. Rebound? No.

 

It is more a story that's trying to convince the audience that a guy is getting a trophy wife while subtly trying to convince/gaslight them on how perfect the woman is and how much she deserves the man of her dreams. What Naruto thinks about the situation is almost irrelevant. 

Well, they sure as hell didn't convince anyone. The people who were already convinced didn't need the movie to begin with..and never saw it anyway from what I have seen since every pro-ender I talk to tells me they never saw Naruto the Last. (The ones who rarely did see it are now saying it is only SLIGHTLY canon....go figure)

Meanwhile, the people that we think they were trying to convince already hated NH to begin with since the ending and it only cemented why this pairing fails in the first place. 

If anything, it felt like they were just wanting to write a fanfiction and make it canon than just because I wanted to. 

So I'll go halfsies on this one,

There fanfic idea for the story is a group of people trying to convince a man that a girl he never talks to is his trophy wife
While the creators of the show, in a meta way, were trying to convince themselves that it is the perfect pairing.


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#53470 Bail o' Lies

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Posted 03 December 2021 - 01:12 AM

Well, they sure as hell didn't convince anyone. The people who were already convinced didn't need the movie to begin with..and never saw it anyway from what I have seen since every pro-ender I talk to tells me they never saw Naruto the Last. (The ones who rarely did see it are now saying it is only SLIGHTLY canon....go figure)

Meanwhile, the people that we think they were trying to convince already hated NH to begin with since the ending and it only cemented why this pairing fails in the first place. 

If anything, it felt like they were just wanting to write a fanfiction and make it canon than just because I wanted to. 

So I'll go halfsies on this one,

There fanfic idea for the story is a group of people trying to convince a man that a girl he never talks to is his trophy wife
While the creators of the show, in a meta way, were trying to convince themselves that it is the perfect pairing.

The goal of the story was to get the people on the fence...there is a term I'm forgetting. It meaning goes something like this:

 

People normally want to believe people are telling them the truth. So, when a person tries to lies and they don't know what to say they will go through a list of a bunch of excuses and see which one the person they are talking to latches onto because a person will latch onto the most reasonable excuse. Then work with that excuse to convince them what they are saying is true. Since they are working off something you were already willing to believe.

 

That is what the Last did, is the listed a whole bunch of excuses of why Naruto didn't love Sakura or couldn't be together with her and why He loved/should be with Hinata. They then relied on the the audience picking the ones they could work with. Of course, this doesn't work if you reject the excuses or don't believe them in the first place. Which most people didn't. Which is why Naruto-Boruto has been in freefall ever since.

 

Here, some examples from the movie:

Naruto didn't know what love was...which run counter to him in the series even the movie since he understood Sakura loved Sasuke in the manga and in the movie Vice versa.

Naruto only went after Sakura due to his rivalry with Sasuke...something never hinted at in the manga or anime before this.

Naruto has never love nor cared for anyone ever, and only Hinata has ever loved or cared for him...ignores the manga's story again.

Its impossible for girl to move on passed their first crush...terrible message for anyone.

 

And so on. Again, in theory, you were suppose to pick one and accept it and continue to buy Naruto-Boruto products. Most didn't and that's the fault of the idiots behind that scheme.


Edited by Bail o' Lies, 03 December 2021 - 11:44 PM.


#53471 Bryon_Konoha_Ninja

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Posted 03 December 2021 - 05:03 PM

The goal of the story was to get the people on the fence...there is a term I'm forgetting. It meaning goes something like this:
 
People normally want to believe people are telling them the truth. So, when a person tries to lies and they don't know what to say they will go through a list of a bunch of excuses and see which one the person they are talking to latches onto because a person will latch onto the most reasonable excuse. Then work with that excuse to convince them what they are saying is true. Since they are working off something you were already willing to believe.
 
That is what the Last did, is the listed a whole bunch of excuses of why Naruto didn't love Sakura or couldn't be together with her and why He loved/should be with Hinata. They then relied on the the audience picking the ones they could work with. Of course, this doesn't work if you reject the excuses or don't believe them in the first place. Which most people didn't. Which is why Naruto-Boruto has been in freefall ever since.
 
Here some examples from the movie:
Naruto didn't know what love was...which run counter to him in the series even the movie since he understood Sakura loved Sasuke in the manga and in the movie Vice versa.
Naruto only went after Sakura due to his rivalry with Sasuke...something never hinted at in the manga or anime before this.
Naruto has never love nor cared for anyone ever, and only Hinata has ever loved or cared for him...ignores the manga's story again.
Its impossible for girl to move on passed their first crush...terrible message for anyone.
 
And so on. Again, in theory, you were suppose to pick one and accept it and continue to buy Naruto-Boruto products. Most didn't and that's the fault of the idiots behind that scheme.


Another way to look at it is simple misdirection but I'd say lying is what happened here.

#53472 Bail o' Lies

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Posted 03 December 2021 - 05:42 PM

Another way to look at it is simple misdirection but I'd say lying is what happened here.

No. A misdirection is trying to throw you off. The Last is trying to find an excuse you will accept.



#53473 James S Cassidy

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Posted 03 December 2021 - 09:41 PM

The goal of the story was to get the people on the fence...there is a term I'm forgetting. It meaning goes something like this:

 

Im sorry, but I disagree because the manga seems more like trying to persuade people that were indecisive especially when you have Hinata more in the scenes and trying to play this impact. Even more so with Kishimoto making interviews like "Naruto always loved Hinata. Neji died for their love. etc."

You have to actually care about the audience to try and persuade them...even in a lie...,but they don't care in the first place. Our opinions didn't matter and both Kishimoto's editors AND a gheads of SP expressed this.

Considering that the movie was 6-9 months released after the fact, there is no point trying to persuade anyone. Especially since
A. They were already trying to cater to the NH group...(I would say SS, but they didn't care about them and the movie wasn't about them.)
B. A large portion of the fandom have already abandoned the series even before the ending came out.
C. When describing the movie from the animators and directors from the pamphlet...they talk more like this was their fantasy to make this movie.

If anything, them force feeding NS scenes in Boruto are them trying to persuade the fans the come back. Having all the stuff in Boruto is more of a persuasion IMO because they are not changing it..they are just putting fanservice to get people back...especially with them trying to make Salad and Boruto the new NaruSaku. 

Naruto the Last feels more like a half assed fanfiction with them trying to "explain" things off the cuff of their sleeve. 

How much percentage of the fans were indecisive? Catering to the NS was a no go....SNS gave up a good portion through...SK fans may have had a chance, but they went with SS instead...and most non-pairing fans I have seen completely made up their mind a good portion through. 

It doesn't feel like a persuasion. It feels like just them jerking off. 


Edited by James S Cassidy, 03 December 2021 - 09:45 PM.

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#53474 BlueStarSaber

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Posted 03 December 2021 - 10:47 PM

Kinda reminds me of the brand new day/Dan Slott era of spiderman, where they deliberately kept teasing PeterxMJ getting back together again even though they had no intention of doing so.

#53475 Bryon_Konoha_Ninja

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Posted 04 December 2021 - 12:10 AM

Kinda reminds me of the brand new day/Dan Slott era of spiderman, where they deliberately kept teasing PeterxMJ getting back together again even though they had no intention of doing so.


But unlike this crap in Naruto, recent Spider-Man comics FINALLY began to get them together again after the mess that was One More Day.

#53476 Kagomaru

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Posted 04 December 2021 - 01:26 AM

Kinda reminds me of the brand new day/Dan Slott era of spiderman, where they deliberately kept teasing PeterxMJ getting back together again even though they had no intention of doing so.

And Slott kept claiming/lying about how the Marvel execs didn't want them back together, despite several interviews following his Spider-Man run with the creative writers, producers and editors (including Quesada; the dumbass who broke them up to begin with) claiming the Pete x MJ ship is an extremely popular couple that they were fond of (and even those who weren't fond of it recognized its importance to the fanbase and thought it was a mistake to erase the marriage) and that they intended to have them reunite as a couple, which eventually did happen.


Edited by Kagomaru, 04 December 2021 - 01:40 AM.

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#53477 BlueStarSaber

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Posted 04 December 2021 - 02:56 AM

But unlike this crap in Naruto, recent Spider-Man comics FINALLY began to get them together again after the mess that was One More Day.

 

Yeah that's the one decent about comics over manga is that they can also fix things eventually, which nick Spencer nearly did on everything with spiderman.

 

And Slott kept claiming/lying about how the Marvel execs didn't want them back together, despite several interviews following his Spider-Man run with the creative writers, producers and editors (including Quesada; the dumbass who broke them up to begin with) claiming the Pete x MJ ship is an extremely popular couple that they were fond of (and even those who weren't fond of it recognized its importance to the fanbase and thought it was a mistake to erase the marriage) and that they intended to have them reunite as a couple, which eventually did happen.


I find it very hard to believe Quesada saying he regrets its, given how adamant he was was about it not to mention many of the things I heard he did to other married couples in marvel.

https://youtu.be/vWg5bGY3jz8 Anyway speaking about spiderman, I have been watching spiderman movies again and honestly this deleted scene from spiderman 2 feels like something that should of been said to sakura regarding her feelings for sasuke

#53478 Kagomaru

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Posted 04 December 2021 - 04:58 AM

 

Yeah that's the one decent about comics over manga is that they can also fix things eventually, which nick Spencer nearly did on everything with spiderman.

 
I find it very hard to believe Quesada saying he regrets its, given how adamant he was was about it not to mention many of the things I heard he did to other married couples in marvel.

https://youtu.be/vWg5bGY3jz8 Anyway speaking about spiderman, I have been watching spiderman movies again and honestly this deleted scene from spiderman 2 feels like something that should of been said to sakura regarding her feelings for sasuke

He only "regretted" his decision when he found out that a single Peter Parker wasn't nearly as profitable as he originally asserted, and changed his tune in order to cover his ass. Also, when it got out that he only attacked the Pete x MJ pairing because he was going through a messy divorce and took that out on the comic series, as well as others. 


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#53479 James S Cassidy

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Posted 04 December 2021 - 04:07 PM

 
Yeah that's the one decent about comics over manga is that they can also fix things eventually, which nick Spencer nearly did on everything with spiderman.

As long as you have the right people doing it. 
 

He only "regretted" his decision when he found out that a single Peter Parker wasn't nearly as profitable as he originally asserted, and changed his tune in order to cover his ass. Also, when it got out that he only attacked the Pete x MJ pairing because he was going through a messy divorce and took that out on the comic series, as well as others. 

Depression, lose, and more can affect people differently. Just like how Kishimoto changed when his father passed away which I still believe is the turning point where Naruto started to suck.


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#53480 Bryon_Konoha_Ninja

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Posted 04 December 2021 - 06:32 PM

Depression, lose, and more can affect people differently. Just like how Kishimoto changed when his father passed away which I still believe is the turning point where Naruto started to suck.


So do I, James, and where Shueisha and Studio Pierrot took advantage of his grief to get what they felt would be the most financially beneficial to the series




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