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So when did Kishi REALLY switch to NH?


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#41 rocci

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Posted 07 December 2015 - 12:29 AM

@slyninja
What if I said that kishi has pairing in his mind and that pairing is NS.
If kishi doesn't have a pairing, he will not change sakura status as heroine and give it to Hinata.

#42 totherpage95

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Posted 07 December 2015 - 12:50 AM

if you notice, there's plenty of other non-ns fans in this site but this guy here is a troll

he doesn't even hide it

and trolls should be treated as such

your right then



#43 Yyubie

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Posted 07 December 2015 - 01:04 AM

if you notice, there's plenty of other non-ns fans in this site but this guy here is a troll

he doesn't even hide it

and trolls should be treated as such

Oh my god ... so he literally came here to spy on us and get back there and said that :ohmy: ! They REALLY can't leave NS fans alone can they? its been how long ... 1 year after their ship is cannon they still spy on us and looking for a fight hah can you believe that!?. Calling queen Tricksie to get rid of this spy :sakura: .


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#44 Nostradamus

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Posted 07 December 2015 - 02:03 AM

Well it's a hollow "victory" for them because in reality they haven't really won anything.

None of the fans won anything. This is something that the people who like this so called ending need to realize. However they prefer to live in their fantasy world.


Edited by Nostradamus, 07 December 2015 - 02:05 AM.

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Which I've told you - time and time again - is dangerous! There will never be consensus, son, among those you have helped to ascend. They will all differ in their views of what it means to be free. The peace you so desperately seek does not exist.
 
These men are united now by a common cause. But when this battle is finished they will fall to fighting amongst themselves about how best to ensure control. In time it will lead to war. You will see.


#45 Yyubie

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Posted 07 December 2015 - 02:20 AM

Well it's a hollow "victory" for them because in reality they haven't really won anything.

None of the fans won anything. This is something that the people who like this so called ending need to realize. However they prefer to live in their fantasy world.

I see it more like 'THEY DON'T LIKE PEACEFUL WORLD'. The world is too quiet and peaceful, its boring its not fun. Lets spread some fire, burn some building attack some people, spread chaos, the world is more fun that way theres battle/war to be fought, theres debate that needs argument. I mean he even COME here, its understandable if it was in tumblr or any other neutral website that discuss naruto, but here is NS fanclub website. He purposely come into his enemy base, spy on them, come back to his base and spread the word 'NS fans still salty, come to their lair to mine the salt' ... hes purposely instigating war, thats dangerous.


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#46 Nate River

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Posted 07 December 2015 - 02:23 AM

Again that's completely contradicted by the largest NS moments happening in the war....no way was NH planned THAT far back.

 

Not at all. 

 

1. Your argument only holds if the existence of those moments is irrefutable proof that NS was still his intent at the time. I have no idea why that must be the case. He claims it was a red herring. For the first 3 quarters of the series that's probably crap, but after Hinata's confession it could have been. The existence of moments suggest a possible intent, but there is not moment, for any pairing, where Kishimoto ever crossed the the point of no return. So at best, you are looking at moments as suggesting a possible intent. It's hardly an exact science and its ludicrous to pretend otherwise.

 

2. Red herring isn't the only possible explanation either. I am curious how much planning in advance he does. The massive internal inconsistencies that this series suffers from sure can make a case that he just pulled out his ass each week, but I have doubts he actually did that. How much of the story was he stuck with at that point?

 

3. Why that moment is notable for me is because it is after that when we get Hinata repeatedly shoved to the spotlight for short moments that have romantic overtones, but don't do anything nor develop anyone. They were together for an entire arc where the stuff could have been developed and nothing was. I cannot think of any pairing moment between them during that whole time. If their intent is NH by that point, why do absolutely nothing?

 

4. There was no need for her to confess. Her character has largely served it's purpose. And even if there was, the confession finished it. Her character he completely runs it course. Reciprocation was never required. Hinata sure seemed to think she was going to die. It would have been a fine way to go out, but she's allowed to linger around and does nothing except fuel the romance plot from that point forward.

 

5. NH seemed to be the end game at least at the inception of the Last. The Last entire purpose is to sell that pairing, which suggests it was the pairing at the movie inception not it's production.

 

Sakura's scenes feel in-character for both Naruto and Sakura, while the scenes with Hinata are overly romantic (on her part) and feel forced or contrived within the storyline. Meaning, it seems natural for Sakura and Naruto to be interacting, but each scene with Hinata begs the question of 'Why?' because she's been such a secondary character up until now. And it doesn't read like Naruto is suddenly single Hinata out, instead that the spotlight is just being shined on Hinata. She's getting a big boost (for no justifiable reason within the storyline), while everyone else stays in character.

 

I always found those moments so strange. I cannot think of any romantic interest in any series in recent memory who was treated the way he Hinata was. By that I mean, she never defines a romantic relationship as the end game, where NS, IS, SS, and even SK had points where it was a relationship was clearly something they wanted. Hinata is less overt about it, even in monologue. She always sought stuff that was a step behind that. Like the author was prepared to bail at a moments notice. I am not saying it means anything, it's just strange. 

 

It was so cheesy. Personally, I find 573 the second most intolerable moment in terms of pairings, but it reach for one of the lamest romance clitche's ever written.  693 was the worst for destroying Sakura's character. I genuinely cannot recall a single case where a story arc was rendered so thoroughly pointless so quickly.



#47 Legend054

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Posted 07 December 2015 - 04:03 AM

guys do not feed the trolls just ignore the attention seeking whore


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#48 Bryon_Konoha_Ninja

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Posted 07 December 2015 - 04:06 AM

Yes, I'd say the end of the Pain Arc marks the end of Kishi's original story. Everything after was guided by extending the story and branching out the franchise (including the plan of the ending) to make more money. 

 

My thoughts are that the ending wasn't Kishimoto's idea, but he went along with it just the same. Kishi only cared about Naruto and Sasuke, and the pairings, continuity and secondary characters (like Neji) he truly didn't care about. 

 

I don't think it matters when Kishi decided to shift gears from an NS ending to an NH one, because I don't think changed his story. I think he wrote the same thing he always intended to — with Naruto thinking of Sakura, dropping in front of Sakura at the med tent,  acknowledging her in front of his father, being resucitated by her, recognizing her as a powerful part of Team 7, and finally thanking her at the end of the war. I think this was part of the original direction of the story.

 

However when the decision was made to go with NH, I think he changed nothing and instead just inserted the mini arc of Neji's death and Hinata's intervening, as well as the individual scenes with Hinata to offset Naruto's scenes with Sakura. 

 

Sakura's scenes feel in-character for both Naruto and Sakura, while the scenes with Hinata are overly romantic (on her part) and feel forced or contrived within the storyline. Meaning, it seems natural for Sakura and Naruto to be interacting, but each scene with Hinata begs the question of 'Why?' because she's been such a secondary character up until now. And it doesn't read like Naruto is suddenly single Hinata out, instead that the spotlight is just being shined on Hinata. She's getting a big boost (for no justifiable reason within the storyline), while everyone else stays in character.

 

And just to reiterate, Hinata's overtly romantic lines really, really stand out in a story where people in full-on husband/wife relationships do not say 'I love you.'

 

I definitely think Kishi took the easy way out. He signed the contracts, re-upped the deals for the Naruto franchise, then inserted the Hinata scenes to loosely justify the movie to come. Then he didn't bother to change anything else. He wrote the story the way he planned it, then tacked on a bait-and-switch ending with no justification at all. 

 

Kishimoto fulfilled his contract and got his money with no creative effort at all. Like I've always said, it's an NS story with an NH ending. 

 

So for me, there was never really a serious decision to change to NH. Yes, there was a moment that he signed a contract and agreed to direct the story toward NH, the next generation and its franchise. But none of that matters because Kishimoto never really changed his story, just inserted the Hinata scenes. And all of his interviews afterwards (saying it was always planned) are simply misdirects.

 

So in other words... to say it less complicated... he sold out. X-D Am I right, babe?



#49 James S Cassidy

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Posted 07 December 2015 - 04:33 AM

 

Not at all. 

 

1. Your argument only holds if the existence of those moments is irrefutable proof that NS was still his intent at the time. I have no idea why that must be the case. He claims it was a red herring. For the first 3 quarters of the series that's probably crap, but after Hinata's confession it could have been. The existence of moments suggest a possible intent, but there is not moment, for any pairing, where Kishimoto ever crossed the the point of no return. So at best, you are looking at moments as suggesting a possible intent. It's hardly an exact science and its ludicrous to pretend otherwise.

 

2. Red herring isn't the only possible explanation either. I am curious how much planning in advance he does. The massive internal inconsistencies that this series suffers from sure can make a case that he just pulled out his ass each week, but I have doubts he actually did that. How much of the story was he stuck with at that point?

 

3. Why that moment is notable for me is because it is after that when we get Hinata repeatedly shoved to the spotlight for short moments that have romantic overtones, but don't do anything nor develop anyone. They were together for an entire arc where the stuff could have been developed and nothing was. I cannot think of any pairing moment between them during that whole time. If their intent is NH by that point, why do absolutely nothing?

 

4. There was no need for her to confess. Her character has largely served it's purpose. And even if there was, the confession finished it. Her character he completely runs it course. Reciprocation was never required. Hinata sure seemed to think she was going to die. It would have been a fine way to go out, but she's allowed to linger around and does nothing except fuel the romance plot from that point forward.

 

5. NH seemed to be the end game at least at the inception of the Last. The Last entire purpose is to sell that pairing, which suggests it was the pairing at the movie inception not it's production.

 

I always found those moments so strange. I cannot think of any romantic interest in any series in recent memory who was treated the way he Hinata was. By that I mean, she never defines a romantic relationship as the end game, where NS, IS, SS, and even SK had points where it was a relationship was clearly something they wanted. Hinata is less overt about it, even in monologue. She always sought stuff that was a step behind that. Like the author was prepared to bail at a moments notice. I am not saying it means anything, it's just strange. 

 

It was so cheesy. Personally, I find 573 the second most intolerable moment in terms of pairings, but it reach for one of the lamest romance clitche's ever written.  693 was the worst for destroying Sakura's character. I genuinely cannot recall a single case where a story arc was rendered so thoroughly pointless so quickly.

I don;t think Kishimoto intended for any pairing period. After all the interviews, all the clues, and all the contradictions, the only two things that remained consistent was "I planned the Sasuke vs Naruto fight" and "I am bad at writing romance." Which means he didn't care at all.

What is weird still is why push so hard for NS then or make so many scenes that insinuate something? Maybe because they knew the pairing wars were a big hit and forced Kishimoto to put scenes in to create more drama? I don't know.

Nothing makes sense no matter how you look at it.

It is ridiculous to really think this was all a ruse and then play it so poorly. Kishimoto plays it all off like there was no romantic scenes in the manga at all and maybe to him there wasn't. Just because we thought it was romantic doesn't mean he did...which makes me wonder was all the NH scenes even romantic because they actually were or because the fans made them romantic despite not being so.

So really says what is romantic or not?
 


Edited by James S Cassidy, 07 December 2015 - 05:03 AM.

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#50 db84x

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Posted 07 December 2015 - 03:26 PM

@ Rocci

Shounen Anime during Naruto ending overly dominated by romcom, only recently it became more balanced.

 

@ redrose3443

The most powefull decision maker in Naruto is Shueisha, and the most important for Shueisha is majority fansbase opinion.  It's SP which tried to promote NS to fanbase, at least respect their attempt.

 

@ Yyubie, Legend054, totherpage95, Nostradamus

This is an open forum, so all fans over the world can saw and laught over your saltiness even without register. 


Edited by db84x, 07 December 2015 - 03:32 PM.


#51 RedFaction

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Posted 07 December 2015 - 04:04 PM

@ Rocci

Shounen Anime during Naruto ending overly dominated by romcom, only recently it became more balanced.

 

@ redrose3443

The most powefull decision maker in Naruto is Shueisha, and the most important for Shueisha is majority fansbase opinion.  It's SP which tried to promote NS to fanbase, at least respect their attempt.

 

@ Yyubie, Legend054, totherpage95, Nostradamus

This is an open forum, so all fans over the world can saw and laught over your saltiness even without register. 

Dude, it's been over a year now and people like you still come on here to "laught over our saltiness". That's just sad. Would you be willing to do us all a big favor and kindly kitten off?


Edited by RedFaction, 07 December 2015 - 04:06 PM.

 


#52 Hanabi

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Posted 07 December 2015 - 04:18 PM

@ Rocci

Shounen Anime during Naruto ending overly dominated by romcom, only recently it became more balanced.

 

@ redrose3443

The most powefull decision maker in Naruto is Shueisha, and the most important for Shueisha is majority fansbase opinion.  It's SP which tried to promote NS to fanbase, at least respect their attempt.

 

@ Yyubie, Legend054, totherpage95, Nostradamus

This is an open forum, so all fans over the world can saw and laught over your saltiness even without register. 

oh no, where's did your "cool, fair and objective" persona go?  :umm:

 

here, i'll kindly donate some salt to you  :confused:

 

and yes, damn sp for their ns agenda :cuss:

 

just look at the ns fanservice act in road to ninja !! everything is completely anime filler and there is absolutely nothing to link mk and ns in the manga! (kishi is so wrong to say that mk and ns is related !!)

 

luckily, we have true, manga based hinata-naruto bff from their childhood in the last  :fu:  and don't forget, true manga based minakushi-naruhina ramen scenes :monocle:


Edited by Hanabi, 07 December 2015 - 04:34 PM.

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#53 Dexter

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Posted 07 December 2015 - 05:11 PM

It had to have been at latest ~Dec. 2012 because that's when Neji was killed, and remember, Kishimoto killed him in order to bring Naruto and Hinata closer together (a "cupid"). They also announced the next movie (The Last, the idea for was brought to Kishimoto by SP) at this time, saying it would come out in 2014 instead of 2013. And while I haven't seen it myself, the animation, production, etc. does seem to be on a higher level than the previous Naruto movies (even though the art style itself is horrendous.. seriously), coupled with the designs Kishimoto had to do, the databook that came out with the movie, all those things...

 

2. This is assuming Kishimoto is a good writer. Which he's not.

 

As for 3, it was either because Kishimoto wanted to "mislead" the readers (which he said himself is what he did), or because he continued to write the story in the way he intended it, as tricksie said, but just tacked on the ending. Or it could be a mixture of both.

 

And before this (end of 2009) is probably when he got the biggest backlash from Sakura haters and proclamations of love for Hinata from her fans, despite Kishimoto trying to portray Sakura as a heroine, prompting him to give up on her.

 

Which is funny, because that's what NH/SS said—the reason for all the NS in Road to Ninja is because he wouldn't be able to do that in the manga. That's how they interpreted his statement and that movie (which doesn't make sense coming from them because that would mean Kishimoto wanted to write NaruSaku, he wanted to put that in the manga but wasn't able to, so he put it in the movie instead). So, perhaps they were right after all...? haha.

Wow I've never seen someone be wrong about literally everything they posted.

 

1. Neji didn't originally die for NH.....this was pretty kittening obvious from day one

 

2. It's not a matter of good writing it's a matter of common sense...even in the movie they never interacted with her

 

3. Those were all proven wrong several months later. Hell there have been interveiws after Neji's death where he talks about naruto and Sakura's growing relationship

 

congratulations literally everything you said has been wrong.

 

@Nate River

 

All of what you just said can be contradicted with one sentence:

 

"Your information is completely outdated"

 

None of it was a red herring that was thrown out the window with literally every other interview Kishi had....both pre Last and post Last

 

Hell during Bolt's premiere he flat out said Sakura isn't happy and he might just write about SS divorce...


Edited by Dexter, 07 December 2015 - 05:16 PM.


#54 Catra

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Posted 07 December 2015 - 08:35 PM

you know somethings questionable when  kishi draws cats and dogs literally living together



#55 rocci

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Posted 07 December 2015 - 09:32 PM

@nate river
Romantic resolution in shonen manga usually happen in the end of manga.
Usually the manga will keep the status quo intact until the very end.
And if all status quo intact, that mean NS gonna be the end pairing.

Kishi only plan naru vs sasu, the other he make on the fly.

Because nh is all about Hinata.


It's the combination of (studio) favoritism, Hinata popularity, and sakura fall in popularity. Kishi even goes as far to dismantle sakura heroine status and give it to Hinata.

#56 TouKen4Life3g

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Posted 07 December 2015 - 09:41 PM

@nate river
Romantic resolution in shonen manga usually happen in the end of manga.
Usually the manga will keep the status quo intact until the very end.
And if all status quo intact, that mean NS gonna be the end pairing.

Kishi only plan naru vs sasu, the other he make on the fly.

Because nh is all about Hinata.


It's the combination of (studio) favoritism, Hinata popularity, and sakura fall in popularity. Kishi even goes as far to dismantle sakura heroine status and give it to Hinata.

Pretty much. If you ask me, it feels more evident with Boruto like "Hm, if I care/do my own work, I would do this pairing." Because God knows that pairing isn't reminiscing NH at all.

#57 rocci

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Posted 07 December 2015 - 09:44 PM

Pretty much. If you ask me, it feels more evident with Boruto like "Hm, if I care/do my own work, I would do this pairing." Because God knows that pairing isn't reminiscing NH at all.

What with burito?
I don't get it :P

#58 TouKen4Life3g

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Posted 07 December 2015 - 10:36 PM

What with burito?
I don't get it :P

Not the character, the series itself. The concept is obviously similar.

#59 rocci

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Posted 07 December 2015 - 10:50 PM

Not the character, the series itself. The concept is obviously similar.

Is this burito x salad?
I don't watch the movie but I read from a tumblr user that salad look like sakura. I always tought she's a female sasuke while burisalad is hetero narusasu.

#60 RedFaction

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Posted 07 December 2015 - 11:08 PM

Is this burito x salad?
I don't watch the movie but I read from a tumblr user that salad look like sakura. I always tought she's a female sasuke while burisalad is hetero narusasu.

I still think Salad is a weird hybrid mix of Sasuke, Sakura, Karin, and Hinata. Maybe Naruto too since she wants to be Hokage.


Edited by RedFaction, 07 December 2015 - 11:09 PM.

 





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