31585 replies to this topic

[Derock]

Sigh...so basically every moment between Naruto and Sakura is a red herring, now? Alright cool. Why did these two characters even become friends in the first place if their relationship was destined to become a joke/ a trick?   All the lovely moments that they shared just a diversion from ???? I don't even know what they're a diversion from. From the fakeness of it all? From the fact that they were never that close, to begin with? That's just a bunch of bs. Why is Kishi making me hate two characters that I grew to love because of the moments that they shared that were apparently all lies? That's just...cruel. 

 

Nope. All of it are just damage control to glorify Hinata so she is the important and major character/pairing foddler.

[Qia]

 

It's not that every moment is a Red Herring, it's the conclusion that this was going to be the end Pairing, that was a mislead. 

 

But the only way for it to be a mislead is for those moments to not be as significant as they were. But the reason why they were significant is that they were points in Naruto and Sakura's relationship development that just so happened to point at the high possibility of romance between the two. Not just that I think...because some of them were to show how alike they were and how much they understood each other. From Sakura possibly having feelings for Naruto that people, like Yamato, could see. From Kushina's words to Naruto and the similarities shared between her and Sakura. From a lot of people, like Gamakichi, Konohamaru, and even Naruto himself teasing about their relationship. This...this isn't even all of the points but that's a LOT of moments to make less significant to accomplish a successful and well-written red herring. Those moments didn;t really get a proper answer through the Fake confession at all. But I suppose that's where our opinions really differ. You're satisfied with that as an answer while I am not. 

Edited by Qia, 13 August 2017 - 04:00 AM.

[Qia]

 

It's not even about significance, though I would argue that a lot of moments weren't really moments in that way you think they are. It's that this moments do not mean a NS conclusion. They might point to aspects of their friendship, or just comedy, or Naruto teasing, but they're not building blocks to 700, to the canon end. 

And like I said before, it all comes down to matters of opinion in the end, and that's something that no amount of debates can change. So I think I'm done here with this topic. 

[TouKen4Life3g]

I think this series introduced me to damage control. It's so many that I found out very quickly.

[LuckyChi7]

I think this series introduced me to damage control. It's so many that I found out very quickly.

 

That makes two of us. 

[gamma]

^ Make that 3

[Moon_Girl]

Count me in as well. I've followed many different anime and manga series for years and never in my entire life have I seen this kind of disaster. I've had endings that I wasn't happy with, but by jove, they were written well. It was more like, "Yeah, the pairing I was cheering for didn't happen, but it's still a great series! The main pair I don't dislike." The pairing was well developed and both characters were as well.
But this...there's zero justification to it. And to see so many contradictions, OOC actions and changes due to the huge negative reception to the Naruto ending...goodness.

Really, they could have saved themselves AND the series long ago if they admitted they messed up and fixed the ending. But they're seriously committed to their trash.
"Instead of removing the knife and patching up the wound, let's just twist it around..."

[Nostradamus]

Make it 5.

It's not like I haven't seen damage control before, but never to this degree. This is just turned all the way to eleven and beyond.

Edited by Nostradamus, 13 August 2017 - 02:06 PM.

[Frankie]

Make it 6!

[ThroughWithLove]

This is not what I said, as I referred to a specific point, clearly drawn out as teasing, I.E., it doesn't say anything one way or another. It's literally the equivalent of the Yamato, where its not said, it's a tease. And the Fake Confession destroys and decides this anyway. 

 

That is exactly what you said: 

 

That isn't part of the manga story, as it is in the Data Books.

 

The Data Books themselves here are just teasing, and they're not written by Kishim.

 

Hence, they're teasing a Red Herring, more or less. 

 

Now if you don't have any proof that that the blurbs in the data books were submitted with the intention of portraying a red herring, then we're right back where we started: Speculation. Baseless at that. The fake confession is irrelevant as you are trying to make a claim as to what was intended when the books were created. There is nothing ruling out the notion that the author changed his mind on the direction he wanted to go with Sakura as a character.

Edited by ThroughWithLove, 13 August 2017 - 03:58 PM.

[rikakim94]

Make it 6!

 

 Make it all of us. 

 

 

At this point debating in circles isnt helping much.Just agree to disagree and move on is a better option.

 

Naruto isnt worth debating anymore everyone knows the ending is utter trash no matter what you see in it.

Edited by rikakim94, 13 August 2017 - 04:05 PM.

[TouKen4Life3g]

Who said it was towards data/numbers? I certainly didn't.

[ThroughWithLove]

There's one more thing that piques my curiosity. NS is a big red herring, right? What's the red herring exactly though? In detective novels, for example, there are almost always otherwise obvious suspects that end up being red herrings used to distract us from the real culprit. At the end of the novel, we always find out the agenda these red herring suspects had all along before they are cleared as suspects. Like maybe they were near the scene of the crime because they were out shopping that night or maybe they framed or something. So for NS, what exactly is the explanation for stuff like what we see in the databook? Sakura doesn't know why she's blushing towards Naruto or what her real feelings for him are, so what was Kishimoto's master plan on why Sakura was behaving the way she was various times? You can't just call something a red herring and then sweep it under the rug. It has to be addressed and explained. Even Scooby Doo gets it.

 

Edited by ThroughWithLove, 13 August 2017 - 04:38 PM.

[TouKen4Life3g]

It has to be the most developed red herring that I have ever saw, so I give him that. It sure got me thinking on how too credible it felt over something that is mainly afterthought for Doujin. Just like how Itachi is the best actor to the point you would think he's horribly written.

[sushi.]

There's one more thing that piques my curiosity. NS is a big red herring, right? What's the red herring exactly though? In detective novels, for example, there are almost always otherwise obvious suspects that end up being red herrings used to distract us from the real culprit. At the end of the novel, we always find out the agenda these red herring suspects had all along before they are cleared as suspects. Like maybe they were near the scene of the crime because they were out shopping that night or maybe they framed or something. So for NS, what exactly is the explanation for stuff like what we see in the databook? Sakura doesn't know why she's blushing towards Naruto or what her real feelings for him are, so what was Kishimoto's master plan on why Sakura was behaving the way she was various times? You can't just call something a red herring and then sweep it under the rug. It has to be addressed and explained. Even Scooby Doo gets it.

 

Yes, Naruto's 'crush' was never explained. Analyzer said he got over her but that is never shown. The last NS moment is the one in the cave where Sakura tells him his crush was never genuine. If we go by that there'd be no crush to get over and we're left guessing its genuinity.

[ThroughWithLove]

It has to be the most developed red herring that I have ever saw, so I give him that. It sure got me thinking on how too credible it felt over something that is mainly afterthought for Doujin. Just like how Itachi is the best actor to the point you would think he's horribly written.

 

It's the equivalent to reading a murder mystery novel and early on finding out about a suspect named Mr. Killer. Over the course of the story, we learn that Mr. Killer was at the scene of a crime as the crime happened, had the victim's blood on his hands shortly after the crime happened, owned the gun of the bullet that was found lodged in the victim's heart, had multiple letters written about how much he hates the victim, was seen fleeing the crime scene when the police pulled up, was seen on camera pointing a gun at the victim 30 seconds prior to his death and has multiple times attempted to destroy the evidence. All of these facts remain uncontested throughout the entirety of the novel. Then, in the final chapter of the novel, the detective says that the real killer is this otherwise unimportant character who has been referenced .04% of the time throughout the novel. The detective makes no mention of Mr. Killer and doesn't even bother to explain why the otherwise unimportant character is the real killer. And we are simply to accept Mr. Killer at his word that he didn't do it. The Novel then abruptly ends and everyone lives happily ever after.

Edited by ThroughWithLove, 13 August 2017 - 05:10 PM.

[TouKen4Life3g]

They should have copied Avatar Stage Play.

Sakura: I love you...like a brother!
Naruto: I couldn't have it any other way!

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

 

For both of these, the Fake Confession resolves it. I feel like the error for a lot of Naruto analysis is looking for too direct of an answer, I.E., summary, what you might understand as telling over showing. 

 

 

 

 

See above point. 

 

 

No, there's no speculation, as the ending is really the gold medal here of why it is teasing. 

 

It's still notable that as far as I understand, Kishi did not have involvement in the Data Books, which may explain above teasing. If I'm wrong, I'll drop it, it's a minor point anyway, but I've not seen any information point to that. 

 

 

This notion as if the Data Books cannot tease something is your error.

 

 

 

You know such a bomb maker wouldn't be held accountable for murder? I've never seen a case even where they were charged. Granted, most people who employ this make the bombs themselves.

 

Regardless of this, the next part about Slaves is Sasuke expected them to all hate them and be an outcast? His plan is stupid, because it wouldn't work to fix anything, without the exertion of great control. 

 

Excluding the Sage of Six Paths, Naruto's accelerated training can largely be explained by his use of Shadow Clones, which he gains the experience from, allowing him to learn a lot faster. 

 

All right, now we get into some beef.

 

The Child of Prophecy thing wasn't directly related to Naruto, as it really fit a lot of people, Minato for example. Ultimately though, they failed the prophecy, each of them. Until we get to Naruto, who does break the cycle, and actually achieve what you say he doesn't, because he does not kill Sasuke, and he gets him on his side. 700 is the proof of this, and your statement that this was not done is false.

 

Of course, I will agree that it was unnecessary to make Naruto and Sasuke brothers, but largely the destiny/fate elements are mis-understood, and the parts where he is saying I don't care about it (Neji battle for example) have nothing to do with his destiny/fate that is set on hand anyway. 

 

You're still not giving much of an argument on the romance. You say that's not how Naruto was, but don't say how Naruto was. Frankly, Naruto in 700 or later is not OOC, and the explanation provided to you, and shown to you in the manga, is valid and works. But I cannot elaborate further, because you don't really elaborate how Naruto changed, you just say he did change, but not how, or why, or what changed.

 

No, I do not have to say -why- the ending is good. My argument is what you are saying has nothing to do with writing quality, not a dispute that the writing is good or bad. Do you understand my stance now?  

Not with the Rasengan training. Naruto only managed to barely overcome the final step of the process with using Kage Bunshin. Up until that last minute, it was him all by himself that entire week.

With Sage Training, Naruto was limited to only three Kage Bunshin (as that was the limit to Fukasaku being able to keep track of them and whack them hard enough to prevent them from turning into Toad statues), but even with three Kage Bunshin, it still should have taken up to a year for Naruto to reach where Jiraiya was, not less than a month to get much further than him.

And there was no sign of Naruto ever using Kage Bunshin when it came to training with Kurama's chakra with Bee.

As for the Child of Prophecy, it was only thought to be possible with other people because of other people's thinking towards the prophecy, like Jiraiya thought that Minato and Nagato could have been possibilities because of their genius or Rinnegan respectively, but it ultimately came down to being Naruto specifically. It wasn't some position that was passed on from person to person when one failed to fulfill it.

 

[LuckyChi7]

You know  there's a reason why I ship certain characters in series... One is development, and two is there has to be that specific moment that really hints at them becoming canon for you to go like it's gonna go that way. 

 

 

 

In Naruto:

 

 

There were two moments: 

 

 

 

That was my big jump start, and then there was this: 

 

 

That made me realize this was going to be canon above all us.. Like I was already shipper for these two especially after The Tenchi Bridge scene, but this scene and ofcourse this sold me: 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Want more examples from other series well then lets look at Bleach: 

 

 

IchiRuki 

 

You know which moment started my road  to shipping them: 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This right here was my jump start in shipping these two, and what convinced they were gonna end up together: 

 

 

 

 

 

Even though I feel the series should've ended here cause it felt so powerful, Kubo has always supported Ichigo and Rukia throughout color pages, the series itself (excluding the last 20 chapters of the final arc though I'd argue otherwise cause there was a little interaction in the final chapter too), and poems too. 

 

Oh and this too: 

 

 

 

Them feels. ah it takes me back... moving along lol 

 

Yes i know Ichiheme happened, and why was I okay with that? cause  at least it felt somewhat natural even though I felt there should've been more. Sure was it one-side yes. The one thing Ichihime and RenRuki have over NH and SS are moments. It's there, and they kinda make sense. It just needed to be more convincing that's all. 

 

 

 

Next we have Raku x Chitoge: 

 

 

 

This was the moment that both jump started, and mainly convinced me that they were gonna be a couple. 

 

Unlike the last two this one actually did happen and it was beautiful though I will argue that at somepoint the story was trying to beat around the bush cough cough year two lol   Funny enough I was actually a Raku x Onodera shipper at the start of the series mainly due to the fact Raku x Onodera actually did like each other a lot. The issue was them becoming canon would always be interruppted by something. Sure there were small moments here and there were it kinda worked, but ultimately I knew it was gonna be Raku x Chitoge.  Why was I okay with this even though I started off as a Raku x Onodera shipper because there relationship as friends I'd argue best friends are great, and by the end of the manga they still talk with one another just like with Ichigo and Rukia. it's not like they are completely ignoring one another like another series that we all know of. 

 

 

 

Then you have Yuuji x Haruka from Sukedachi 9: 

 

 

  

 

 

 

 

 

 

I've mentioned it before, but this is the series that was written by Kishi's younger brother Seishi, and he was pushing these two just like Masashi did with NS throughout Naruto, and this moment did tell me they were gonna be canon, and you wanna know what happened with Haruka that never happened with Sakura.  Realization! how? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The pairing itself is kinda left to your interpretation on if they got together or not, but i believe that they did. It's just a little sad that Seishi wasn't able to do it cause he kinda rushed the ending but still fitting in it's own way. Also no third wheel, no side pairings whatsoever so I commend him for that.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

Basically the point I'm trying to get at here with the series I mentioned and their pairings aside from Sukedachi 9 which only had one main pairing,   yes other pairings happened but they had support that made sense.  NH and SS don't have that at all that's why it lacks in the overall sense of the narrative.  Look I get it this is a shounen series, but if you're going to do romance then atleast have it make sense and be believable. 

[Qia]

You can't use the conclusion of something to support a premise....that makes no sense. I know I said I was done debating, and I really am, but I just wanted to point that out. o.0