740 replies to this topic

[Gravenimage]

I've been doing a lot of thinking at how much of an impact this chapter has done to opposite fandoms. It was hard to explain why they freaked out and even got angry to see Sakura getting some screen time after A LONG TIME since we last saw her in this arc. I finally understand why they would react the way they did, it's not that they're angry or frustrated. The truth is deep down they're" scare" because they know something big will happen to the NS pairing in this arc, they always lifts their hopes high when it comes to the suppose" NH development" and they never learn their lesson about getting troll by Kishi in the end. Another thing that they fear that this arc will be similar to what happened at the Pain arc with Hinata confession and then Naruto returning to the village only to get hugged by Sakura and Hinata smiling at the sight like it didn't bother her at all. THIS is exactly what scares them, that something similar to 450 happens in this arc but instead of a hug it's a kiss or something else that is consider as a romantic sign, in this case they fear Minato might say something that will prove the Mina/Kushi N/S parallel true for good. Once that happens they will know NH will finally be done for. This is obviously pure speculation from me and not trying anything to bash.

[rocci]

I've been doing a lot of thinking at how much of an impact this chapter has done to opposite fandoms. It was hard to explain why they freaked out and even got angry to see Sakura getting some screen time after A LONG TIME since we last saw her in this arc. I finally understand why they would react the way they did, it's not that they're angry or frustrated. The truth is deep down they're" scare" because they know something big will happen to the NS pairing in this arc, they always lifts their hopes high when it comes to the suppose" NH development" and they never learn their lesson about getting troll by Kishi in the end. Another thing that they fear that this arc will be similar to what happened at the Pain arc with Hinata confession and then Naruto returning to the village only to get hugged by Sakura and Hinata smiling at the sight like it didn't bother her at all. THIS is exactly what scares them, that something similar to 450 happens in this arc but instead of a hug it's a kiss or something else that is consider as a romantic sign, in this case they fear Minato might say something that will prove the Mina/Kushi N/S parallel true for good. Once that happens they will know NH will finally be done for. This is obviously pure speculation from me and not trying anything to bash.

And don't forget obirin = narusaku parallel

[redragon88]

You know, I find it ironic that when you think about it this is probably how Hinata would react to all of those NH reviewers and posters that try to bash and downgrade Sakura's role in the story:



She'd be very disappointed in them all.

[StriderC]

The thing thats getting me atm is that Hinatas moment was romantic and we dont know how Naruto feels about her. ATM all NS interactions are non romantic and this leads me to worry that it might feel out of place/ooc for sakura to get romantic with naruto, especially that sasuke is close by and ,well.... i just don't know if she will keep a lid on it when she sees him again.. i pray she will

Here's the thing, and this is pretty much my opinion on it. Some may agree. Some may not.

I feel as though Kishi is trying to keep things low key when it comes to NS.

1. We're aware of how Hinata feels for Naruto even now.

2. I feel as though Kishi WANTS many of us to believe that Naruto is considering moving on from Sakura. Of course, us NS fans, and some others see that he's shown no indication that Naruto looks at Hinata in a romantic light even now in the manga. It's all one sided romantically, BUT the way he pitches the moments pushes for others to believe that NH is it. Look at how many NH fans shouted canon after 615, and yet even then, romantically, it was one sided.

3. Sakura's feelings are pretty much kept in check. This whole war, she's not been seen much, and there's really been nothing romantic going on with her since the Summit Arc. What Kishi DID give us is some Kushina/Minato parallels. Even though she wasn't featured a lot in the war, and the NS interactions had pretty much been butchered a bit, it's still not enough to say that she doesn't have feelings for Naruto even at this moment. He's definitely trolling but even so, he's always telling us what we already know. He leaves Naruto in the dark to make it look as though Hinata has a chance thus catering to the fans in a way but really, even at face value, nothing has changed when it comes to Naruto>Hinata romantically.

4. SasuSaku.... I'm not gonna even delve into that. IMO, it's dead. Kishi may very well play with it from Sakura's end but ultimately, Sasuke doesn't view her romantically. Has never had a romantic thought about her, and even throughout Part 2, she doesn't seem to be all that important to him. We'll see how things pan out when he arrives on the battlefield. I'm pretty excited to see what's going to happen between the two of them, but I don't think Sakura's going to turn fangirl. She's grown so much.

So, yeah, Kishi's just milking this but he's not making anything tooooo obvious. It's pretty smart from a marketing strategy. I think that even if Minato made a comparison between Sakura and Kushina, people still will debate over it, and they'll dismiss it also. Anyway, it's awesome that Sakura's going to see Naruto's dad first hand, and hopefully they interact a little while he's there. They may not talk much considering this is war but we'll see.

[rocci]

Here's the thing, and this is pretty much my opinion on it. Some may agree. Some may not.

I feel as though Kishi is trying to keep things low key when it comes to NS.

1. We're aware of how Hinata feels for Naruto even now.

2. I feel as though Kishi WANTS many of us to believe that Naruto is considering moving on from Sakura. Of course, us NS fans, and some others see that he's shown no indication that Naruto looks at Hinata in a romantic light even now in the manga. It's all one sided romantically, BUT the way he pitches the moments pushes for others to believe that NH is it. Look at how many NH fans shouted canon after 615, and yet even then, romantically, it was one sided.

3. Sakura's feelings are pretty much kept in check. This whole war, she's not been seen much, and there's really been nothing romantic going on with her since the Summit Arc. What Kishi DID give us is some Kushina/Minato parallels. Even though she wasn't featured a lot in the war, and the NS interactions had pretty much been butchered a bit, it's still not enough to say that she doesn't have feelings for Naruto even at this moment. He's definitely trolling but even so, he's always telling us what we already know. He leaves Naruto in the dark to make it look as though Hinata has a chance thus catering to the fans in a way but really, even at face value, nothing has changed when it comes to Naruto>Hinata romantically.

4. SasuSaku.... I'm not gonna even delve into that. IMO, it's dead. Kishi may very well play with it from Sakura's end but ultimately, Sasuke doesn't view her romantically. Has never had a romantic thought about her, and even throughout Part 2, she doesn't seem to be all that important to him. We'll see how things pan out when he arrives on the battlefield. I'm pretty excited to see what's going to happen between the two of them, but I don't think Sakura's going to turn fangirl. She's grown so much.

So, yeah, Kishi's just milking this but he's not making anything tooooo obvious. It's pretty smart from a marketing strategy. I think that even if Minato made a comparison between Sakura and Kushina, people still will debate over it, and they'll dismiss it also. Anyway, it's awesome that Sakura's going to see Naruto's dad first hand, and hopefully they interact a little while he's there. They may not talk much considering this is war but we'll see.

Remember when tobi declare that he is madara while still using a mask to conceal his identity

[Dkey]

Here's the thing, and this is pretty much my opinion on it. Some may agree. Some may not.

I feel as though Kishi is trying to keep things low key when it comes to NS.

1. We're aware of how Hinata feels for Naruto even now.

2. I feel as though Kishi WANTS many of us to believe that Naruto is considering moving on from Sakura. Of course, us NS fans, and some others see that he's shown no indication that Naruto looks at Hinata in a romantic light even now in the manga. It's all one sided romantically, BUT the way he pitches the moments pushes for others to believe that NH is it. Look at how many NH fans shouted canon after 615, and yet even then, romantically, it was one sided.

3. Sakura's feelings are pretty much kept in check. This whole war, she's not been seen much, and there's really been nothing romantic going on with her since the Summit Arc. What Kishi DID give us is some Kushina/Minato parallels. Even though she wasn't featured a lot in the war, and the NS interactions had pretty much been butchered a bit, it's still not enough to say that she doesn't have feelings for Naruto even at this moment. He's definitely trolling but even so, he's always telling us what we already know. He leaves Naruto in the dark to make it look as though Hinata has a chance thus catering to the fans in a way but really, even at face value, nothing has changed when it comes to Naruto>Hinata romantically.

4. SasuSaku.... I'm not gonna even delve into that. IMO, it's dead. Kishi may very well play with it from Sakura's end but ultimately, Sasuke doesn't view her romantically. Has never had a romantic thought about her, and even throughout Part 2, she doesn't seem to be all that important to him. We'll see how things pan out when he arrives on the battlefield. I'm pretty excited to see what's going to happen between the two of them, but I don't think Sakura's going to turn fangirl. She's grown so much.

So, yeah, Kishi's just milking this but he's not making anything tooooo obvious. It's pretty smart from a marketing strategy. I think that even if Minato made a comparison between Sakura and Kushina, people still will debate over it, and they'll dismiss it also. Anyway, it's awesome that Sakura's going to see Naruto's dad first hand, and hopefully they interact a little while he's there. They may not talk much considering this is war but we'll see.

I agree with you. Regarding the romance subplot right now it's put on hold with feelings for the both of them left in the dark.

Now I wonder if it's only for marketing or fanservice purposes or if Kishi actually has a hidden agenda on how their feelings will affect the entire story.

[StriderC]

I agree with you. Regarding the romance subplot right now it's put on hold with feelings for the both of them left in the dark.

Now I wonder if it's only for marketing or fanservice purposes or if Kishi actually has a hidden agenda on how their feelings will affect the entire story.

You're talking about Naruto and Sakura's feelings for one another? If so, it's pretty understandable. If he made NS canon right now, we're well aware that MANY would be quite upset and likely quit the manga. Fanservice, and marketing purposes pretty much ride the same bus. If there were some hidden agenda, I feel as though Kishimoto would make it feelings from certain characters so hidden if you know what I mean? If he's pushing for NH, why not make it more obvious on Naruto's end? I mean, throughout the war, he's giving us a ton of NH interaction and yet, not once, Naruto view her romantically or even as an option. Not once did he question his feelings for Sakura. He's doing a good job concealing NS to the general public who believe NS is in fact dead. Let them believe it though. Apparently, when NS didn't get a ton of moments like NH did in the war, it means that Naruto is avoiding her/has no interest. That's their logic and they're eating it up pretty much.

Edited by StriderC, 16 May 2013 - 04:21 PM.

[Inferno180]

Here's the thing, and this is pretty much my opinion on it. Some may agree. Some may not.

I feel as though Kishi is trying to keep things low key when it comes to NS.

1. We're aware of how Hinata feels for Naruto even now.

2. I feel as though Kishi WANTS many of us to believe that Naruto is considering moving on from Sakura. Of course, us NS fans, and some others see that he's shown no indication that Naruto looks at Hinata in a romantic light even now in the manga. It's all one sided romantically, BUT the way he pitches the moments pushes for others to believe that NH is it. Look at how many NH fans shouted canon after 615, and yet even then, romantically, it was one sided.

3. Sakura's feelings are pretty much kept in check. This whole war, she's not been seen much, and there's really been nothing romantic going on with her since the Summit Arc. What Kishi DID give us is some Kushina/Minato parallels. Even though she wasn't featured a lot in the war, and the NS interactions had pretty much been butchered a bit, it's still not enough to say that she doesn't have feelings for Naruto even at this moment. He's definitely trolling but even so, he's always telling us what we already know. He leaves Naruto in the dark to make it look as though Hinata has a chance thus catering to the fans in a way but really, even at face value, nothing has changed when it comes to Naruto>Hinata romantically.

4. SasuSaku.... I'm not gonna even delve into that. IMO, it's dead. Kishi may very well play with it from Sakura's end but ultimately, Sasuke doesn't view her romantically. Has never had a romantic thought about her, and even throughout Part 2, she doesn't seem to be all that important to him. We'll see how things pan out when he arrives on the battlefield. I'm pretty excited to see what's going to happen between the two of them, but I don't think Sakura's going to turn fangirl. She's grown so much.

So, yeah, Kishi's just milking this but he's not making anything tooooo obvious. It's pretty smart from a marketing strategy. I think that even if Minato made a comparison between Sakura and Kushina, people still will debate over it, and they'll dismiss it also. Anyway, it's awesome that Sakura's going to see Naruto's dad first hand, and hopefully they interact a little while he's there. They may not talk much considering this is war but we'll see.

In truth, I don't think kishi pays attention to the pairing stuff all that much, I mean he is a mangika busy to tell his own story best he can (aside from what the editors manage to pull over him). But NH may actually be scared because there are 2 things they know Hinata can never do.

1. She is not a member of team 7 nor a main character.
2. They know Sakura's involvement with Naruto and Sasuke yet hope she just gets put on Sasuke so she is out of the way.
3. They hate how Naruto loves someone like Sakura who they consider all these un-nice names.

They fear Sakura getting that character development which actually does justice to her character, moving away from Sasuke and towards Naruto. Basically they were high and mighty at the start of this year, 15 chapters later, look at them, they are worried and scared. Many have gone into a yellow alert, Minato may just torpedo them next chapter especially given the proximity of the situation and who just had a chapter.

Simple answer: As much as haters want to deny it, they are scared, the ones who don't want NS to come are worried because this is just that big a position and someone like Minato to come in at this moment can be a game changer. Many think Sasuke will just pop right in as well, I don't think he will cause his entrance would have to be like at the end of a chapter and he just had a long string of screentime. Basically next chapter even if Naruto just shows he still loves Sakura or hints at it, even if Minato just teases him and he blushes, that can be it. Either way next week there is a high chance for Sakura-minato interaction, ending this kushina parallel maddness, maybe even showing Naruto as still loving Sakura. If either of these 2 things happens, its a step up for us and just another one down for them.

Geez, this was not even as bad as our 469 and 615 crisis and they are acting like its even worse! Its hilarious to a certain extent, even if NS does not become canon, let this be a lesson to the NH crowd, don't leave and drop the ball while the game is still in play, one mistake could cost them.

[Atheck]

Then you just created one of the most cheap ass ways to make Sasuke "redeem" himself and you have to wonder why didn't he just do this when he met with Obito.

You should consult the author about what his intentions are. He is the one who has the best understanding as to what will occur in his manga and why he chooses to progress the story in a particular way.

This is a huge problem with this and it will really put a damper to everything this manga tried to make us see. This entire manga drove the idea of a huge Naruto and Sasuke fighy and that Naruto was supposed to resolve it in the end. A story about Sasuke seeking revenge and Naruto showing how revenge only leads to more suffering. As explained in past threads, to boil this down to nothing more than a fight for power or a simple sparring match will diminish everything this manga has tried setting up. Kishi might as well not do it if he is going to go that route because you will find many people disappointed.

It is a tad late for that, don't you think? Sasuke could have developed an extremist mindset similar to Danzo's when it comes to protecting Konoha. Perhaps he is beginning to perceive the rest of the world as a potentially dangerous threat to the stability of "his" village. It isn't necessarily what most people were expecting would be the motivation for Naruto and Sasuke to battle but having Sasuke divert his murderous inclinations from Konoha to the rest of the world may provide an equally aggressive response from Naruto that would condemn Sasuke for his misconceptions. If the alliance forces were to encounter him when he is in particular mindset then the reader would still have the opportunity of witnessing Sasuke bringing about carnage on the battlefield as it was suggested he would almost sixty chapters ago.

You see, there are still alternative approaches that can provide a meaningful justification to Sasuke and Naruto continuing to fight. It could be argued that Sasuke has been enveloped by the antipathy and brutality of his own thoughts for so long that it has become a subconscious predilection for him to centre his emotions on.

Speaking of disappointment, Sasuke's redemption would be so cheap and shallow...I can't even describe it.

I sympathize with your thoughts here. Sasuke was this immoveable, emotionally obstinate man who repudiated all pleas that were made for him to relent in his ambition for vengeance. Even Naruto, the one who had become one of his closest companions in the past and was stated to possess this innate "gift" of being able to alter the minds of people whom he came into contact with, was unable to change him. It required the influencing of Itachi and Hashirama's tale of the Senju's imperfections whilst presenting the Uchiha in a positive light to ultimately convince Sasuke to carry out the "right" action. His redemption which was being built up throughout the totality of the manga was resolved in but a span of 30 chapters roughly.

Although to be fair I don't believe Naruto, Kakashi, or anyone before Itachi had actually endeavoured to sway Sasuke using information relating to his brother's actions/intentions and the history of his clan in general which coloured them in a more ambiguous tone than what we were initially led to believe. They simply relied on force or sympathy to attempt to convince him. Actually, that is one notable quality that I just realized when it comes to Naruto's JnJ/TnJ. He tends to rely on the emotions and the desires of those whom he converts instead of attempting to utilize hard logic or diplomacy in his efforts as Hashirama did. Hashirama providing a recounting of the Uchiha and Senju's history prior to Konoha, yes does it have an element of emotional appeal through Hashirama and Madara's personal friendship, but the Uchiha were presented as a group of people who were equally victimized by the old system of conflict and bloodshed. Hashirama merely presented the objective reality of what had occurred in the past and it was from there that Sasuke came to his resolution.

Even though it does cheapen Naruto's efforts, I will acknowledge that it was a different, more logically based approach to addressing the sensitive topic of Sasuke's reasoning for why he resented Konoha. He aspires to defend it now albeit it's for reasons that should not be his only motivating factors to protect it.

This was my biggest issue with the redemption and one I feared for the most. I still say to this day, Sasuke and Obito should have switched places. Sasuke should be the one trying to rebuild the world the way he wanted while Obito sought revenge for Rin's death leading to the truth.

Sasuke wasn't concerned with changing the fabric of reality. His motivations have always been personal and he was only concerned with himself. He initially started his adventure with the desire of killing Itachi out of vengeance, but then with Tobi's influence and the realization that Konoha was partially responsible for the massacring of his clan he redirected his hatred towards them. Outside of his personal vendettas, Sasuke is generally unconcerned with anything. He merely seeks to carry out his own aspirations which impact only himself and the party that he is in contentions with.

It would have been an uncharacteristic endeavour for him to attempt to change the totality of the world like that. Tobi's intentions, on the other hand, were influenced directly by war. The ones whom he cared for died in battle against emotionally unfamiliar, indiscriminate adversaries who were carrying out their instructions by their respective village. I believe it was this realization that might have at least partially compelled Tobi to become the individual who he is. He doesn't attribute his suffering to just a single individual or a nation, but the world in general and the mentality of its inhabitants. He wants to repudiate reality because it is not in accordance with his personal perspective of life.

These are the differences between Sasuke and Tobi. The former is driven by personal vendettas to lunge out at anyone and anything whom he is directed towards, he's unconcerned with achieving peace, he only wants to satiate his lust for vengeance. Tobi, at least vocally, does not assign blame or accusations to anyone in particular for his affliction. He believes that the suffering caused in the world is generated by the aforementioned system of conflict and bloodshed. However, instead of attempting to provide a consensual, reality based solution to the problem he simply wants to take the "easy way out" by creating an artificial world where he can contentedly enjoy his personal desires and everyone else is permitted to live in it free of conflict (presumably). It's irrefutable that Tobi does have a personal motivation for his actions but there is a stark contrast between Sasuke only wanting to kill those whom he believed wronged him and Tobi wishing to create an entirely different reality where conflict is nonexistent.

It would have made both their redemption's more powerful and actually give them reasons to be redeemed. Now we have Obito who's redemption could be a satisfying one while Sasuke will fall flat because he was persuaded by kind words for a man he has no connections with?

I already addressed this in my previous two responses.

Speaking of which, how is Naruto going to redeem him them?

If any of my presumptions come to pass then it will be through Naruto awakening the memories of their past relationship as comrades on Team 7 and the "brotherhood" that they had with each other. Sympathizing with Sasuke in his desire for revenge and attempting to have him focus on what relations he held in recent times has always been the primary method for Naruto's JnJing.

Wasn't it Naruto's job to do that?

It was and it should have been but apparently Kishimoto disagreed with that notion.

That you just screwed up several areas of the manga and several long story arcs leading to nothing, but an asspull and a character with plot armor.

If it is any comfort to your thoughts Sasuke is still not fighting for the proper motivations. He safeguards Konoha out of obligation, not for any personal sentiments of love that he may had with its population or what Konoha symbolizes philosophically. That is still one critical flaw in his mindset. He persists on focusing on the past instead of what life he did manage to create for himself in the present with Team 7 or Taka. This could be the foundation for Naruto being required to covert him.

Anything is possible, but you said so yourself what practicality would it make?

What practicality is there to Juugo continually destroying Suigetsu's body? Perhaps the Curse Seal will have overtaken his mind and he will be driven mad to such a degree that he will become rabid. Remember that it has adverse effects on those who constantly exploit it and who have yet to fully master it. We witnessed increased levels of aggression whenever it was utilized and Juugo is no exception. It may drive him to insanity before this is all over.

You have to accept all outcomes that Kishi chooses to be. However, while any outcome may occur what would be more interesting?

Again "minor" stuff that practically anyone could have did and some actually did.

Couldn't Neji have been that scout?

Neji blocked the stakes.

She pushed his shoulder back in...Okay and Sakura healed his entire body from burns. I don't know if you want to count giving Naruto that medicine thing, but whatever.

She pushed his shoulder back in...Okay and Sakura healed his entire body from burns. I don't know if you want to count giving Naruto that medicine thing, but whatever.

Bolded: I don't even think I want to count that cause it was Neji that did it while Hinata took the glory.

She really didn't do anything. She didn't block them. She didn't swat any away.

Neji did it. He took the full force of them.

So I am gonna give that one to Neji, not Hinata.

I don't want to appear as a hypocrite as well, but I don't want to deny facts either.

We also got all these moments where Hinata really could have did some good and did nothing. Where was she when Naruto felt alone and just wanted to be a part of the group in part 1?

Where was she when they went after Sasuke?

Does she even care about Naruto's goal after Sasuke?

Does she even try to understand? Where was she when Naruto had problems with eating cause of his arm? Why didn't she hug Naruto when he returned to the village after fighting Pein? Why didn't she pursue stronger into her confession (even when we know she could have)? Why wasn't she put on Team 7? Why didn't she try to take of Sasuke if she knew how much of a burden he was or at least try to ease him of his sorrows?

Does she even know of his feelings for Sakura?

It's not just a character action, but rather what Kishi is doing with her and why he didn't he do such obvious things. It all comes down to writing ethics and what you want to portray. He could have made NH so obvious it hurts, but he choose to keep her in the background and out of sight most of the time with only sporadic and forgettable moments that mean little to the manga overall. Even now he seems to forget about her so much that he has to make up for all the times he could have done before. There is no reason why he just left Hinata in the background if NH was supposed to be the canon pairing.

And if he makes Sasuke good again like you stated above in your first paragraph...then it is all worthless.

We seem to forget that this is not about the journey of Hinata or Sasuke.

It is not even the journey of Sakura.

It was supposed to be about the journey of Naruto and him overcoming everything he is faced against, but we have Hinata who is all of a sudden is trying to be this big importance out of nowhere

and now we have Sasuke making another huge character shift because of some old story?

How does this benefit the journey of Naruto?

How does this play into Naruto overcoming adversary and standing in the end. This is why many claim it is bad writing.

This is why people get some of the messages wrong because Kishi seems unable to decide what he wants to do with either Hinata or Sasuke.

Yet when it comes to Naruto or Sakura, they are very in line with what they do and who they are and they only waver from these paths because of Hinata and Sasuke only because Kishi seems to not know what to do with them.

I can think of many many possible physical benefits that would fit along with her character and I can make it seem like it would fit with the flow of the story. Trust me, I thought of several moments in this that resolve all the problem leading up to that point, but it requires Sasuke still being evil and Hinata not being in the picture at all.

That's what I am trying to tell you and this is their fault entirely because they hate her for one reason or another. The simple fact of this hypocrisy shows that these fans do not know what they are talking about and I cannot take their judgement as truth or with factual back up.

I like Sakura, but I like her because of her character, not because I liked her flat out. In fact, I hated her in the beginning.

Yes, he has not been treating his female character as much respect as he should have, but when he does give them respect and that time to do so what happens when we become stupid?

What happens when we become blind to the obvious?

As I said, there are faults he does as a writer, but there is also faults we do as a fanbase. If Kishi depicted one way because that is what was intended and we as the fanbase took it another because we wanted something different, whose fault is that?

If you really think about it, he has treated Sakura with more respect than any of his other female characters.

Also, not every character needs to be super important otherwise you take away focus from the main character.

If Sakura, the heroine or Hinata starts taking out everything and doing everything what is there left for Naruto to do?

We have to keep remembering that Sakura and Hinata are not the main characters.

So it is all about balance. Balance in character development, Balance in importance. Balance in conflict.

At least we can say that Sakura has grown up along side Naruto and not in his shadow like Hinata has been.

So it is not all bad writing just there is so much that people want and so much info Kishi shifts through that you don't know.

Also, read this. I find Sakura's confession to be a type of this.

http://tvtropes.org/...eathOfTheAuthor

That's a problem though. That's a huge problem. She got lucky that nothing bad really happened in the end and that there were people there who managed to take control of the situation. I am not gonna give her credit for what other people do especially when it was never her "intention" to do such good.

Again, look at what Sakura did. Look at what she tried to do with Sasuke which was also a stupid plan, but she knew the risks.

She knew the ways it was hurting Naruto and really wanted to help no matter what the cost.

She was aware of the possibilities and aware of the outcomes that might occur.

The way Hinata is portrayed in that scene alone makes it seem like she wasn't thinking at all. It makes her seem like "Well, I am gonna die anyway, might as well show Naruto who I am and what I feel."

We take both these actions as ends justify the means, but if the end was completely unintentional, then how does this credit the means?

Who knows maybe Naruto could have gotten out of the situation himself and her efforts were in vain. Problem is we will never know that.

So many factors, but I am still not giving Hinata credit she doesn't deserve.

As for Naruto not surviving, I am sure if Kishi wanted he could have had Naruto figure something out.

I mean he did it with Sasuke and asspulled it with his fight with Deidara

and Toriyama does it all the time with Goku.

It also happens with Yu-Gi-Oh quite a lot where the hero pulls that one special card or gains that one certain power that just solves the entire problem.

And I fault her just as well when she screws up. Like I said above, I would judge Sakura the same way. Do not mistake my intentions as me being blinded or one-sided or unable to factor in possibilities.

I am not implying anything on you, I am just trying to answer your inquiries. I base my opinion on characters not simply by actions or merits or intentions, but all three.

You have to factor in everything they do including all the faults and successes. Looking at only one aspect alone does not give a good enough picture and easily manipulates the entire view.

Same with Naruto. He screws up. I am not happy he was willing to give up so easily in 615 because Neji died despite many including Itachi telling him that he needs to remember that the war is not all about him. I have many complaints about Naruto that I am hoping Sakura knocks out of him.

Or Naruto could have prevailed and beat Pein straight up after a long grueling fight with Hinata not interfering at all.

We could have had Sakura jump in and do the same thing. We could have had her punch Pein giving him enough time to get up.

You have given me interpretations and possibilities, but this is a two way street my friend. Kishi could have written it several ways and still have it be good, but he wrote it this way...so we question why. That's what we do. We ask questions and speculate based on why he did or did not do what he did. Back and forth, everyday speculation, but it all comes down to this. Hinata jumped in. Did she need to? We don't know. Why? We could argue it was to help, but then she could have been more productive. Was it necessary? Again, given that many possibilities could have happened both on a good and bad scale we don't know. Good thing about fiction is the writer can do whatever he pleases.

The monument of possibilities is endless and anything could have happened. Maybe in one existence Pein didn't exist at all and the battle never took place. Wibbly Wobbly Timey Wimey...stuff.

However, whatever was chosen we can't ignore what didn't happen and what didn't happen is Hinata helping. This is why in the anime they have Hinata pulling out a stake or two, but the manga she did no such thing.

You're making it seem like if Hinata didn't interfere, then Naruto would die so we should thank her she interfered, but why?

Again, I can think of several ways for Naruto to get out of the situation without Hinata doing anything at all.

I can think of some where Sakura was the one who interfered and makes the situation better.

Yeah, but Hinata didn't change Neji's view of his worth. Wouldn't it have been a great to have Hinata break down the barriers of her clan, showing strength, and actually create this side story showing her grow and become this great leader? This would also enforce what she is doing now and not make it feel awkward. She didn't have to win the bout to prove this either. Of course, as I said this was a possibility that never happened, but would have made a more interesting and given Hinata depth.

Again, it is not known Naruto would have been taken and Kishi could have Naruto survive and win without Hinata interfering.

It is not like this was the only option Kishi had, but again we can't ignore that it was Sakura's efforts in wanting to become a medical ninja that Hinata is still alive

and we have to acknowledge that if Minato didn't put in safe-guards the situation would have gotten even worse as well.

See above. Neji gets no love and Hinata gets the credit.

Hinata gets 1/4th Credit, Neji gets 2/4ths credit and Kurama gets 1/4th credit.

That's how I see it. Oh wait...forgot that fangirling Naruto thing which ruined the moment for her credit.

If we're gonna be fair and judge Sakura based on her fangirling for Sasuke in part 1 (as many do), then I will hold it against Hinata as well. It is only fair.

So basically, she is either unjustifiably criticized or unjustifiably praised and made out to be better than she actually is. At least when it comes to my criticism, I don't judge her based off bias for Sakura nor because of my fandom for NS.

While these are true, and I am not going to deny either, is more than just that that makes a character a hero or not. The core of her character is also what makes her a hero and I find that Sakura has shown to be more emotionally stable with growth than Hinata is. Heck, even more than Naruto is for that matter. And as much as you dislike this prospect, this is still a higher score than Hinata has. We also don't know what future things Sakura and Hinata may do and so these numbers could still shift at any time.

There are also many of these little moments that I believe also play a huge point overall, but we can keep going at this all day with every moment. The point is, however, is how both these character have grown and tried to overcome their problems and while Sakura has at least tried to make things better, Hinata seems to only want to satisfy her love for Naruto.

Hinata: Selfless acts for selfish reasons.
Sakura: Selfless acts for Selfless reasons.


Yes, but Sakura has provided more in terms of heroism and many other characters have provided even more than that which again dwarfs Hinata's actions in retrospect. We can look at every single thing every character has done and not done and I guarantee you that Hinata's actions seem like nothing. A mere drop in the bucket to the greater picture. A drop that I could take out and no one would know the difference.

Naruto attributed to her saving him from Pein, but this is far from the truth as well wasn't it?

We also have Naruto saying that Hinata is strong despite her being on the ground and not winning a single battle in her life. She is not even emotionally strong.

For all we know, Naruto says anything to her just so she doesn't feel bad.

We also have radical misinterpretations where Naruto says "You have always been there for me" or something and the fans mistook this as she was always there since the beginning which is a down right lie in itself.

I am not saying Hinata did nothing don't mistake this, but you're making it sound like she deserves the highest credit to a scene that was completely forced

and has made no difference in the plot itself other than killing off one character.

If we are to count everything that everyone has done for Naruto, then Hinata has only done a mere fraction of it while we have Iruka, Itachi, Neji, Jiraiya, Sakura, Killer Bee,

Compared to all that, Hinata is merely a drop in the bucket. Yeah it adds water, but when you have other characters adding cups of water it makes that drop very insignificant.

This is especially true when you have fans who credit Hinata for other things characters have done and make her out to be this big heroine.

615 is the only chapter I am actually giving to her partial credit for.

Every other moment I can offset with the fact that it could have lead to worse if others didn't fix.

What you or I believe would be more interesting is subjective and open to interpretation. I was personally disgruntled by Kishi's intentions with Sasuke being changed by someone other than Naruto but then I realized that it now presents so many possibilities which I have referenced twice already. All of them have the potential to be equally as interesting as Naruto simply fighting Sasuke and then reverting him back to his P1 mindset in the process.

Really? Considering the circumstances that everyone was experiencing would they be capable of defending Naruto? Can the likes of Kiba or Shino have used Air Palm like Hinata did prevent any of the stakes from reaching Naruto? Please present

I believe it was stated somewhere that Hinata is the superior scout. It is one of the few qualities that she has that Neji does not.

Neji and Hiashi were having to defend Naruto from different trajectories. Keep in mind that the Mokuton stakes were plummeting from everywhere. They each needed to assume a position so that they could protect Naruto fully.

You appear to be trivializing Hinata's contributions. I have already acknowledged that Sakura has done quite a bit more but denying Hinata credit for what she has accomplished is illogical and hypocritical. Some people from this fandom need to reflect upon their own opinions because they sound very reminiscent of the irrational hatred that we denounce others for having.

Hinata's contributions may have been less than what Neji or Hiashi provided but she did assist whilst on her own.

http://i.imgur.com/7PWh6Xr.png?1?7757 - Here we are provided with an explicit depiction of Hinata repelling the Mokuton states on her own using Hakke Kusho.

Oh, and BTW, Hinata was the who initiated the effort of absorbing the stakes into her body once everyone came to the realization that there were too many to repel. Technically it was Neji who deprived their cousin of the glory as he leaped in front of Hinata and Naruto after the former was already fully prepared to absorb the impact.

http://i.imgur.com/7PWh6Xr.png?1?7757 - Once again, I present this image to you which depicts Hinata protecting Naruto from the stakes without any assistance from Neji or Hiashi. Your assertion is technically inaccurate.

Forgive me for my boldness, but this declaration is inaccurate as well. Neji was utilizing Kaiten alongside Hiashi to protect Naruto; he was not fighting by himself. Hiashi in fact used Hakke Kuhekisho to propel backwards one of the Jubi's various arms which was approaching the Hyugas and Naruto whilst ravaging the battlefield. In regards to contribution to defense the list would go like this:

1. Hiashi
2. Neji
3. Hinata

They all deserve credit. Hinata's actions simply warrant the least amount.

Well the least you can do is acknowledge that Hinata did protect Naruto on her own in the two panels I provided above (twice now).

Yes, I do acknowledge that there is much, much that she could have done to accommodate Naruto's desires for companionship and understanding. This is one particular grievance that I share with you and contend with other board users about.

Unavailable or unselected due to the Sasuke Retrieval team already having a sufficient amount of recruits? This is unknown but we cannot assign blame because we are not aware of the precise conditions as to why she was not present during the gathering.

To the extent that it is important to Naruto, perhaps. She should be quite benighted on the topic and that is how I would prefer it to be when considering that Sasuke is a concern relating only to Team 7 and not anyone else (excluding Sasuke's culpability for the crimes he committed against others after resolving to destroy Konoha).

You're beginning to sound accusatory. I am not attempting to play devil's advocate for Hinata's character. There are many imperfections with her character that I dislike and I believe her single minded fixation on Naruto is more of a detriment than a source of strength. However, I will not deny what she has accomplished or done when it so clearly drawn in the source material that we use in these disputes. Furthermore, some of those suggestions you have made would have resulted in her death had she actually attempted to carry them out. We already went over the issue of devotion vs impracticality.

That's presently unknown as well but she may have an understand that Naruto is incredibly close to Sakura's heart as depicted when Naruto returned from his encounter with Nagato.

Attribute the liability for this deficient lack of Naruto and Hinata interaction to Kishimoto. He chose not delve too far into their personal relationship with each other. There is much more that he could have done with not just Hinata but Sakura and the rest of the K11 cast in general. Why did he not provide Yamato with additional background information or establish a personal motivation for him to carry out what he does? Why are Tenten and Shino virtually nonexistent in the manga? These are inquiries which I nor anyone else excluding Kishi and possibly his editors can respond to with any noteworthy degree of accuracy.

If you want a personal interpretation of why it has been so lacking, I believe that it is relate to Kishi's previous statements about his personal inexperience with writing romantic relationships in an effective manner.

I have already addressed this point above so please refer to that if you want a response.

Actually, a large segment of the manga is dedicated entirely to Sasuke's personal quest and his background. There is a reason for why he is branded as the secondary protagonist of the manga.

One could make an argument that the Kazekage Rescue Arc was a period of character development and an exposition of the abilities that Sakura's acquired during the course of the time skip. I would vouch that that arc was intended to follow Sakura primarily as she progressed from realizing that Gaara had been kidnapped all of the way up until she leaves Chiyo's grave with a newly found understanding of her own motivations and emotions.

Hinata's focus has extended to only a handful of chapters. I resented the exorbitant amount of focus that she received recently but now it appears to be over and she has once again been relegated to the crowd. If you want a definite answer as to why Kishi provided so much focus to her then consult him personally, why don't you?

This was also already addressed several points above. Refer to those for a reiteration of my response.

How does anything that does not have Naruto's appearance in it relate to or benefit him? This reminds me alot of the arguments people presented about the original Dragonball franchise being so focused on Goku but when DBZ began many people enjoyed the additional focus on other characters instead of just the incessant appearances of the same character.

Then consult Kishi about it. I don't understand what you hope to accomplish by referring to me with these inquiries when I equally resent and do not understand why Kishi did it.

Kishi has stated previously that he already has the conclusion of his manga already ingrained into his mind. That isn't a concern to him. It appears that the journey he must take to reach that destination is the issue in question.

I refer you to my response two points above. This appears to be just a statement of the apparent circumstances of the manga. This perpetuating of the pairing conflicts may be related to the theory that Kishi's motivations are financial in origin. The more conflict he incites with his writing, the more dedicated people become to wanting to read his material, which will result in increased revenue for him.

Then Hinata's character is in condemned to absolute irrelevance as Shino or Tenten were? If that is true then I would quite honestly would prefer Kishi's writing to anything that you are able to conceptualize. He is the one with the best understanding of his manga. Whatever Kishi is intending it is likely superior to anything almost anyone else can generate because he is the one created the world, he understands how it should be handled more than anyone else.

Being in agreement with someone on a secluded fan website will only provide personal comfort to one's ailing thoughts about these issues. I cannot offer anything else apart from my confirmation of equal dissatisfaction with how they misinterpret her character. If you want to create a difference then why don't you confront them yourself?

I never resented her although there were others that I was more interested in initially. Sakura was a relatively unimportant person back then with only a few select moments of importance.

Define respect. What does it mean to provide meaningful characterization or panel time to the characters? Is it related to them fighting or simply making these little speeches occasionally to motivate others to fight or persist. There would always be a flaw with Kishi's depiction of females even if he were to provide them all with an equal amount of fights as he does with males.

Blind to obvious of what? Kishi's negligence of any female characters achieving a significant role beyond that of being a supplement for someone else like Tsunade and Sakura are generally?

Technically ours but that doesn't negate it being perceived as a fault which Kishi could rectify by providing additional time and focus to those characters. As author you should ready yourself for criticism relating to any flaws that a reviewer may find with their writing.

That is very much debatable. I look upon others such as Temari and Ino who are both universally presented as strong, capable individuals, not just physically, but mentally as well, and I realize that beyond Sakura's verbal interactions and her personal resolution to attempt to help Naruto, she doesn't have much to represent herself. She is doing something significant now by healing Naruto and providing her words to the alliance but is that really the extent of her role? Is Kishi to relegate her as well once Naruto has been revitalized?

That's somewhat of a contradiction when the character in question is intended to resemble a heroine yet a considerable amount of people believe she should only be part of the background and even the author himself has admitted that others would make superior heroines. Not everyone has to be relevant, but if you want people to believe that this character is the heroine of the story, then depict them as such.

You misinterpreted my previous statements. They should not be completing all of the important actions themselves, but that does not imply that they cannot do anything more than what roles they are being provided with now.

This is beginning to detract from the original topic though.

We could assign this same logic to Kakashi but compare him to Sakura's actions. Despite him not being the most important character in the manga he has played a very significant role throughout almost all of the arcs in the manga and he is able to make contributions that influence the story. I'll reiterate that whilst he is not Naruto or Sasuke he does contribute. Why can the same not be applicable to Sakura?

Well Sakura is intended to be the heroine of the manga. Why should the fanbase not expect her to create plot altering contributions? We know that she is capable of doing so when she battled with Sasori. If Kakashi can be allowed the opportunity of battling and defeating the primary antagonists of entire arcs (Zabuza and Tobi) then why is Sakura not being granted an equally important role at least?

I do not want a heroine whose only role is to espouse support her male compatriots. I want to be active and to contribute in meaningful ways. Sakura is doing that currently and I admire that greatly but there is still much more that she could do.

This proclaimed "balance" is heavily biased against Sakura as her appearances have oftentimes been of a negligible quality. Naruto and Sasuke are balanced in all of the manners which you referenced. Kakashi is presently being compensated for his inactivity during other arcs but what about Sakura? When is her role going to become stable, I ask you?

Sakura's character relations with the others is not what is question, it's how and why she can be defined as a heroine. What separates her from someone like Ino who has assumed many of the qualities that someone would relate to a heroine?

Those are just empty words to me because when I remember Kishi's inability to carry out the promises that he has made there's nothing but ineptitude that emanates from his character.

So you believe Kishi's interpretation of his own characters hold no more weight than anyone else's? Well I can't say that that is true because Kishi is the one who creates and writes the manga. His opinion on how events should play out takes precedence over anything else. That does not mean his belief that Sakura is being appropriately depicted as a heroine is entirely correct because there is still so much that could have sufficiently accommodated Sakura to be a heroine.

Then you should consistently not assign anyone who's actions resulted in particular events to inadvertently occur, Sakura as well. Oh, and Hinata's intention were to protect Naruto alongside wanting to confess her feelings, that technically came true because he was protected from being removed from Konoha.

She had no understanding of Sasuke's MS, Kirin, or his fighting in general. Sakura was entering into a battle which she had no hope of succeeding in.

Sakura's intentions were honourable but her actions highly impractical.

She was not aware of anything relating to the situation Sasuke was in when she first arrived or what he was capable of.

True, her actions were self-centered and illogical but if she wanted to die attempting to protect Naruto then that is her decision.

Because their actions successfully brought about Naruto not being captured? Hinata's intention was to protect Naruto which did occur, Naruto was released from Pain's grasp because of her, albeit it was unintentional. It appears you and I have different approaches to assigning with credit for their actions.

He would have likely died since he was badly injured from the rods having impaled his hands and back. Furthermore, Fukasaku and Shima, the only two capable of stalling Pain, were both incapacitated and with Pain inevitably attempting to recapture him Naruto would have been doomed as he cannot fight God Realm alone. Not without the advantages that were provided to him such as CT being unusable or the terrain accommodating his clone concealment.

I refer you to my response two points above for this as it has already been addressed.

So now we are applying the argument of "plot protection". I would thoroughly enjoy hearing how precisely Naruto could have possibly survived the likes of Chibaku Tensei or Super Shinra Tensei, both of which decimated entire landscapes, without Kurama being unleashed.

The difference is that whilst Sasuke should have lacked the chakra to perform any jutsu, he did technically possess the necessary tools to escape. Naruto has no answer for SST or CT aside from unleashing Kurama. Why do you believe there were so many convenient handicaps given to Pain when he fought Naruto in the first place?

No, he did not really. All of his victories can be attributable either to circumstance, his own skills, or just sheer dumb luck.

Yugioh is an entirely different series but with card games you at least have the excuse of claiming that your pull was related to luck.

I haven't. I only see you as a poster with an equally disputatious mindset who is being provided with the evidence that certain assertions they create may not be entirely accurate.

Really? Is that the reasoning for your refusal to assign any credit to Hinata for her actions against the Mokuton stakes even though it was clearly expressed that she contributed to Naruto's defense alongside Hiashi and Neji?

I do, more times than I would like to admit to and my opinion of Hinata and Sakura's characters remains the same. They both possess their own accomplishments and faults. They have contributed to the plot in some capacity.

Well that's another issue entirely but I would not hold my breath on that aspiration. Kishi is notorious for disappointing his fans.

He had no counteractive measures against either of God Realm's most powerful attacks excluding Kurama being unleashed. If Naruto attempted to acquire the summoning scroll then what is to prevent God Realm from doing what he did previously and lunging at Naruto? In fact, how could SM have destroyed CT or prevented it from crushing Naruto when Pain inevitably decides to use it? Persistence will only go so far before you need the actual skills necessary to defeat an opponent as powerful as Pain.

If Naruto was capable of freeing himself he would have done it before Pain could abscond with him. He was completely restrained and unable to move at all. Sakura would have been repelled and "killed" all of the same except if she was not able to heal herself then she may not be able to recover.

He has the liberty of doing whatever he pleases with his manga but that would not prevent the fans from denouncing this or that action as being unrealistic considering the circumstances. Hinata did what she did but she could have done more, potentially, and it resulted in a more preferable outcome to the presumed alternative. This unending exchange with you is going nowhere and I'm beginning to understand why these debates oftentimes have no conclusions to themselves because both parties are too obstinate to be refuted.

That doesn't really address my point of how Naruto would have defeated Pain without assistance from others.

help -to give assistance or support to; to be of use to

Technically, Hinata was of use to Naruto because it was her injuries that forced him to unleash Kurama which inadvertently saved him. It's not a matter of whether Hinata's efforts brought about any sort of change, it's if credit should be assigned to her for the changes her actions brought about.

Naruto was incapacitated, had no SM, was emotionally in despair, and all of his allies were out commission. He couldn't acquire the summoning scroll to reactivate SM nor did he have a response to CT's usage without Kurama which I find it unlikely he would have used to the extremity that he did if he was not pushed to the brink of total collapse.

How? What you referred to as "asspulling"? You didn't address my point of CT's usage or Naruto's hesitance to unleash Kurama without an emotional stimulous

If she removed the stakes instead of rushing Pain or used the sleeping gas or smoke bombs she had in the later arcs then it may have been possible but then for the latter she had none of those resources available to her as the attack had completely destroyed the village. That leaves only the first option and who is to claim that Sakura would not be repelled from Naruto using ST or BT?

That's irrelevant to the intention of that segment of my post but yes, it could have been explored much more. Not that I would be personally interested as I couldn't care less for the Hyuga family or whatever issues they may have.

It was the most probable outcome when considering that Naruto was unable to do anything once Pain restrained him and right before Hinata intervened it appeared as though Pain was going to use a ninjutsu to transport him away. Anything could have occurred but he would have been Pain's mercy even if he did escape.

Hinata was injured but we don't know how severe her injuries were. The other ninja could have removed the rod and bandaged her up for all we know. Also, Sakura's efforts could have been rendered irrelevant because if Hinata had died she would have been resurrected once Nagato used Rinne Tensei.

Yes, but it is thanks to Minato that the situation did not become progressive worst than it did. He warrants some credit for preventing a crisis.

By her fanbase? Yes, I have to agree that Neji does not receive as much credit as he deserves.
By Naruto? Naruto only credited her after her speech. An entire chapter was dedicated to this moment so it is only fitting that she would receive credit for her efforts as well.

More like this...

Hinata - 50%
Neji - 20%
Kurama - 30%

Hinata's efforts brought Naruto back from the brink of despair whilst Neji was already dead.

That mental thought of hers about his hand was quite inappropriate but it doesn't negate her previous efforts.

Yes, just please be aware of the boundary between fair criticism and unjustified denigration. For instance, you claim that Hinata deserves no credit whatsoever for defending Naruto. Well that is patently false as I proved above that she did in fact protect Naruto without any assistance from Neji or Hiashi for those two panels provided.

I have disagree with that notion. From my experience with talking with you I have the impression that you are perhaps one of the most...predisposed of individuals I have had the experience of encountering on this forum. You remind me alot of two distinct users that I knew of from another forum. Except their sentiments were the opposite of your own.

And I completely agree with this. Her actions weren't the most logical but her heart was in the right place.

Well Sakura does have her selfish motivations as well. Like during her encounter with Sasuke she was doing it not just for Naruto or for Sasuke but for her own conscience as well. In general though I agree that Hinata is a much more selfish character.

In the entire manga, yes, in this particular arc... Well let's just say that Sakura has room to develop even further from here. By the way, everything you stated about Hinata being replaceable is arguably the same for Sakura except that whoever her replacement is would have inferior stats because they would not share Sakura's innate chakra control abilities or her intelligence.

Yes and no.

Hinata didn't physically free Naruto herself but her actions did result in Naruto being freed. This is becoming a perpetual cycle of reiterated talking points that never seems to end.

Hinata is emotionally steadfast in that she is willing to fight long and arduously against her opponents, but her obsessions with Naruto is a source of weakness that she needs to overcome.

Naruto would never say anything that he does not mean. It would be uncharacteristic of him to make an empty or false statement like that.

She's been there to encourage him when he required like it like before his battle with Neji and then in 615 when he having yet another psychological breakdown. I believe that is what Naruto meant when stating that "you have always been there for me".

My statements clearly state the contrary. I believe that Hinata deserves half of the credit because she was the primary drive for Naruto to pull himself back up. Kurama and Neji also deserve credit for their efforts but they weren't quite as significant as Hinata's in this scene.

We have been over this issue for so long that I am not even not even going to respond to it again. If you want a reiteration then please return to my previous replies.

Iruka was irrelevant after the first chapter.

Itachi? Well yes, of course. He's the motivating factor behind all of Sasuke's actions. Furthermore, he is a very capable ninja who stopped the ET (though its benefits only prevented two actual threats) and assisted in influencing Sasuke to seek additional information about Konoha.

Neji? He temporarily distracted Team Dosu, fought to a draw against Kidomaru, helped release the barrier to Akatsuki's lair, and then sacrificed himself to protect Naruto. His direct actions were more significant to the plot than Hinata's unless you include emotional contributions. It becomes contentious then.

Jiraiya? Instructed Naruto on the summoning and Rasengan techniques, protected Naruto from Kisame, discovered the weakness to Pain's fighting style, and then provided the key which Naruto needed to unleash Kurama. He's much more important than Hinata but I would say the same thing for Sakura as well.

Sakura? Yes, of course.

Killer Bee? Assisted Naruto in acquiring KM, protected Naruto from Raikage's wrath, assisted against the zombie doujutsu users, fought alongside Naruto against Tobi, and is now fighting Jubi. His contributions are much more significant as well.

For who Hinata is, a member of the K11, she is the most significant and developed member excluding Team 7, Team 10, and Neji.

Her "drop in the bucket" is much larger than many others'. I would contest that her significance is in the middle. She's more important than a large amount of the cast but there are quite a few more who take precedence over her.

I'm inclined to agree that she receives unnaturally large amounts of credit for what role she does play. I think it pertains to her place as a pairing rival against Sakura for Naruto's affections.

What about chapters 98 (motivational speech), 396 (reconnaissance), 611 (assisted in redirecting a Bijudama from the Jubi), 614 (protected Naruto from Mokuton stakes which I have already proven several times above now), 616 (fixed Naruto's shoulder)?

Even if you remove the "debatable" Pain fight event she has still made contributions of her own.

Really, so I suppose Naruto would have been better off entering the Neji fight uncertainty as to whether he can win or not? Naruto's group would have been better off if they had just been obliterated by the Bijudama. Or maybe Naruto's shoulder was actually put into worst condition when Hinata fixed it for him?

Forgive me for the sarcasm but your argument is devolving into sheer senselessness now.

Due to the lack of any additional quote boxes I was forced to place a segment of my post into this collection of individual responses

If there are any errors then I apologize. I have spent the past 6 hours on this post and am tired.

Edited by Atheck, 16 May 2013 - 08:40 PM.

[James S Cassidy]

I've been doing a lot of thinking at how much of an impact this chapter has done to opposite fandoms. It was hard to explain why they freaked out and even got angry to see Sakura getting some screen time after A LONG TIME since we last saw her in this arc. I finally understand why they would react the way they did, it's not that they're angry or frustrated. The truth is deep down they're" scare" because they know something big will happen to the NS pairing in this arc, they always lifts their hopes high when it comes to the suppose" NH development" and they never learn their lesson about getting troll by Kishi in the end. Another thing that they fear that this arc will be similar to what happened at the Pain arc with Hinata confession and then Naruto returning to the village only to get hugged by Sakura and Hinata smiling at the sight like it didn't bother her at all. THIS is exactly what scares them, that something similar to 450 happens in this arc but instead of a hug it's a kiss or something else that is consider as a romantic sign, in this case they fear Minato might say something that will prove the Mina/Kushi N/S parallel true for good. Once that happens they will know NH will finally be done for. This is obviously pure speculation from me and not trying anything to bash.

I agree, Graven. All I will say is is that if NH fans or whoever didn't see NS as a threat they wouldn't be as mad as they are now about this scene. So all the times people say Sakura's scenes are "nothing" and that "they are just platonic moments." I always argue "Then why are so so concerned with them? Why are you so afraid?"

The thing thats getting me atm is that Hinatas moment was romantic and we dont know how Naruto feels about her. ATM all NS interactions are non romantic and this leads me to worry that it might feel out of place/ooc for sakura to get romantic with naruto, especially that sasuke is close by and ,well.... i just don't know if she will keep a lid on it when she sees him again.. i pray she will

Hinata's moment was "romantic" only because Hinata made it appear romantic with the whole hand holding scene and her fangirling it. How many other hands did Naruto hold or people he touched and not one thought of it that way? Especially Naruto who really thought nothing of it. However, with NaruSaku you see real concern for each other and you see how Sakura is trying to be strong for Naruto. It's not that Sakura can't be romantic, it is just that this isn't a harem manga. I am glad Sakura isn't doing what Hinata does because it shows true feelings, not just what appears to be idol worship which I could argue against Hinata on several occasions.

I believe we will see true romantic moments when Sasuke comes into play and not for SS, but for NS.

[T XD]

I agree with you. Regarding the romance subplot right now it's put on hold with feelings for the both of them left in the dark.

Now I wonder if it's only for marketing or fanservice purposes or if Kishi actually has a hidden agenda on how their feelings will affect the entire story.

I think he's doing that for everything for the sake of the manga. He won't go by what the fans wants, but only for some other pairing teases, some character screen time to be shown up and some fan servicing in the development of some side characters. That's how I see it.

I want to say something about Naruto's expressions in this chapter when Sakura was giving her speech. Naruto's expressions and silence was for he knows that Sakura knows what she's talking about and sending the message to everyone. His expressions are like " Listen to Sakura. She's sending my message and saying right". It's something that I founded more suited for Naruto to be like this than let's say smiling; he can't do anything else or her important moment will be cut or interrupted. This showed power and belief when the two are together. This is how I got it when I was looking at her and Naruto.

@Atheck: I'm literally astonished from your brainstorming and the long LAP.

Edited by T XD, 16 May 2013 - 08:03 PM.

[StriderC]

I think he's doing that for everything for the sake of the manga. He won't go by what the fans wants, but only for some other pairing teases, some character screen time to be shown up and some fan servicing in the development of some side characters. That's how I see it.

I want to say something about Naruto's expressions in this chapter when Sakura was giving her speech. Naruto's expressions and silence was for he knows that Sakura knows what she's talking about and sending the message to everyone. His expressions are like " Listen to Sakura. She's sending my message and saying right". It's something that I founded more suited for Naruto to be like this than let's say smiling; he can't do anything else or her important moment will be cut or interrupted. This showed power and belief when the two are together. This is how I got it when I was looking at her and Naruto.

@Atheck: I'm literally astonished from your brainstorming and the long LAP. Great post.

I find it funny how people try to use his expression AGAINST us. I mean really? It seems like people really truly want Naruto to be an ass or a douche to Sakura. Was Sakura smiling while giving her speech? Hell no. She was VERY serious. Hell, look at the panel where they show both Naruto and Sakura as she's healing him. Their expression's in sync, and so are their emotions.

[T XD]

I find it funny how people try to use his expression AGAINST us. I mean really? It seems like people really truly want Naruto to be an ass or a douche to Sakura. Was Sakura smiling while giving her speech? Hell no. She was VERY serious. Hell, look at the panel where they show both Naruto and Sakura as she's healing him. Their expression's in sync, and so are their emotions.

Some want to downgrade her moment as much as they can. That what's all behind using Naruto against Sakura, and this chapter proved it once again.

Edited by T XD, 16 May 2013 - 07:18 PM.

[James S Cassidy]

Fine, Atheck. I'm tired. Let's give Hinata all credit in the world and say that yes she is a better heroine than Sakura. Yes, Atheck, let's not hold anything against Hinata because her heart is in the right place even though she doesn't care about her clan or the safety of the village. As long as she loves Naruto, it's all okay. Let's disregard the fact that she wasn't there in part 1 at all and was this huge fangirl for Naruto. Let's give her popping Naruto's shoulder back in as a sign for healing, I mean cause Sakura never did anything like that.

Pein arc? Oh it was all unintentional so we can't hold that against her.

Let's disregard all the times when she didn't try to solve Naruto's problem's or push him to better things. It doesn't matter. We can't fault Hinata for anything cause she was innocent and shy, but let's hold everything against Sakura because she knew exactly what she was doing. Oh and let's blame Kishimoto for bad writing, but 615 was a masterpiece of writing even though all Hinata did was repeat what Itachi said and that Naruto went completely OoC. It was good writing because Hinata was the heroine that snapped Naruto out of his emo stage. So, yes she saved Naruto from utter destruction.

Sakura is just a fangirl who is sucky as a heroine because she didn't pop Naruto's shoulder back in or gave these speeches to him about self-confidence. Let's hold all the fangirling against Sakura in part 1 even though she is completely different in part 2. I admit defeat Atheck. Hinata is a better heroine and she has a better heart. I give up. You win.

"When one person dies… he disappears… Along with his past, current lifestyle, and his future. Many people die in missions and wars. They die easily and in surprisingly simple ways. Hayate was one of them. Those who die have goals and dreams. But everyone has something as important as those. Parents, siblings, friends, lovers… People who are important to you. They trust and help each other. The bond between the people important to you ever since birth… And the string that binds them becomes thicker and stronger as time goes by. It's beyond reason. Those bound to you by that string will do that. Because it's important…Master Jiraiya only had praise for you. He was always boasting about you, saying you were like his own grandchild. He had faith that you were the one who would inherit his will, and truly believed that you would one day be a great Hokage. Master Jiraiya will always watch over you. Even this very minute, he's watching from somewhere. He wouldn't be happy seeing you sad like this. So… Be your usual self, the one he praised so much. Don't stay depressed forever. For Master Jiraiya himself, one of the Legendary Sannin… acknowledged you as his promising student!"
-Iruka

[CloudMountainJuror]

... I miss Iruka. It would be nice if he had more of a role lately. He had such a huge impact on Naruto at the beginning...

[StriderC]

Some want to downgrade her moment as much as they can. That what's all behind using Naruto against Sakura, and this chapter proved it once again.

It's such a dumb thing to do though... Sakura's not going anywhere, and she's gonna remain very close to Naruto. No matter how much a person wants her gone, dead, and out of the picture, it's not gonna happen.

[T XD]

It's such a dumb thing to do though... Sakura's not going anywhere, and she's gonna remain very close to Naruto. No matter how much a person wants her gone, dead, and out of the picture, it's not gonna happen.

Exactly. Which is why I always wonder how can they think that way if they know that... That is the way of a hater.

[tricksie]

Wow! Atheck! You are burning the candle at both ends writing that post! Good on you!

[HauntedCake]

Wow atheck... that....that.... that post.....

You NH fan i'm guessing?

[rikakim94]

atheck is pretty good at analyzing, I don't really see him downgrading both girls contribution to the manga he's just trying to state the cons and pros in them.