54175 replies to this topic

[catsi563]

Actually the anime has even less Sasusaku then the manga the pair of them have ZERO time together and any such moments are all from Sakuras perspective

[Tsuki Hoshino]

What you mean Sasuke standing in front of Sakura looking cool in all the genin filler and flashbacks aren't romantic moments?  

[totherpage95]

Is there anything more ironic than a naruhina fan saying sasusaku didn't have enough development?

[Tsuki Hoshino]

Both their ships won but they still absolutely hate one another. Still don't get why, other than Sakura being part of SS. 

[NaruSaku fan in Kentucky]

One thing I don't get is how did Kishi write a good Couple like MinaKushi botch up NaruHina?

[Bail o' Lies]

I've said it before but Kishi has like some great merits when it comes to creating characters. Naruto started out as a REALLY good character. Jiraiya is amazing--start to finish. 
The problem and the worst sin of all is that he is inconsistent and you can FEEL him become sloppier in storytelling as the manga proceeds. His drawings improve but his story begins to get out of control. 

Her immaturity at part one is probably because she's an immature child like all the rest of the genin.  She HAS character development up until those last 30 or so chapters where her Sauce addiction kicks into high gear and she literally devolves before our eyes. 

I've been thinking about it a lot lately, but there is literally no conceivable reason for Sakura to be in love with Sasuke, unless she's one of those absolutely insane women who looks for the sort of guy who is damaged beyond repair because having to suffer with him makes her feel like a saint. 

I always considered that kishimoto is good at introducing characters and telling their initial story he came up for them. It follow through, continuation, or long running stories that he has problems with. Unless they interest him after he done with their initial arc; he doesn't know what to do with them. If they have a long arc -like Naruto and Sakura- he runs out of steam eventually.

 

This has become a problem for both the sequel and his new manga as Boruto and Hachimaru had good initial stories -a movie & first chapter- for the main character, but those stories had conclusions. So, it's difficult to continue the story afterwards. Though his style of writing did help Salad through the 10 chapter gaiden.

[Tsuki Hoshino]

Kishimoto became more interested in Sasuke than he was in Naruto at some point--weird when we consider that he didn't even intend for Sasuke to exist in the beginning. And i think i finally understand why. An Avengers story is a lot simpler than Naruto's imo. You just have to go around killing whoever it is you need to kill. Becoming a leader, briding gaps, changing a system is a lot more convoluted than a lazy person wants to invest in. 

[Phantom_999]

I've said it before but Kishi has like some great merits when it comes to creating characters. Naruto started out as a REALLY good character. Jiraiya is amazing--start to finish. 
The problem and the worst sin of all is that he is inconsistent and you can FEEL him become sloppier in storytelling as the manga proceeds. His drawings improve but his story begins to get out of control. 

Her immaturity at part one is probably because she's an immature child like all the rest of the genin She HAS character development up until those last 30 or so chapters where her Sauce addiction kicks into high gear and she literally devolves before our eyes. 



I've been thinking about it a lot lately, but there is literally no conceivable reason for Sakura to be in love with Sasuke, unless she's one of those absolutely insane women who looks for the sort of guy who is damaged beyond repair because having to suffer with him makes her feel like a saint. 

 
Oh he's good at introducing characters, for sure. Why else do you think that characters he created makes fans invested in them?. But it is apparent that once he makes those introductions and have those characters fulfill their "purpose" there is little thought process in bringing them up after the fact, and the war arc is where he spread himself too thin trying to give them all focus again because that is the "grand finale" so to speak. the main problem is again, he either doesn't know what he is doing and have others decide for him how to write his story or he just gave up any thought of his own input because again he actually has ideas from time to time to show a character well but then the editors will tell him no and to do something else. One example is that we may complain that Tsunade never gets to actually show off her stuff or rarely does but He DID want to have her give a proper fight against Pain, but then the editor at the time told him to move on to the Naruto fighting Pain A.S.A.P because the year was ending at the time and he wanted to get to that before Christmas.
 
As for Sakura, I meant that her introduction at the beginning of the series was probably reflected on how Kishi viewed women at the time, although again he proved that he could write them properly if he actually put the effort into it even back then with Temari, Ten Ten and Tsunade being the prime examples of part I. But Sakura Ino and Hinata were just written as love struck teenage girls for some reason, and here is a fact that is even more jarring; You don't see Ino getting straight up hatred for it like Sakura has and Hinata is given a complete pass, but Sakura is called "useless" when Hinata appeared less and and did nothing of importance besides helping Naruto with the written exam and losing to Neji, and even Ino hardly appeared and also did nothing after helping Sakura at the forest of death, and after their fight in the preliminary rounds of the tournament. Obviously Sakura has all of that development but again that was ignored by most Hinata fanatics and her haters because................................ reasons?
 
And yes I know, I know, anime fillers, BUT STILL the anime fans DON'T QUESTION why they do so much in some episodes and yet do so little in others when they actually appear after so long? What I find is the main problem is that from what I remember even in the filler arcs the gals are still reduced to support roles for the guys and don't necessarily prove they are just as capable, since it is the guys that are still the heavy lifters ultimately. But those are the fillers I remember so correct me if there are any that I missed in where the ladies are actually prominent.
 
 

As far back as the Cheating portion of the Chuunin exam, we can see that Sakura actually does support Naruto's dream even though she thinks its "impossible." And I can't think of a single time where Sakura looked at Sasuke and said "Yea I totally support your dreams." partially because he never shared his dreams besides wanting to murder people  

Karin also has a perfectly good reason to hate him, but forwhatever reason she was good with a "Sorry." Sakura gets two "Thank yous." So i guess thats akin to professing his eternal love or something. 

I mean yea the Anime, since its essentially invented kitten probably has more "development" on Sasusaku than the Manga but WE still never see a moment where Sasuke and Sakura have a melding of the minds on what attracts them to one another. We KNOW why Hinata loves Naruto...Naruto likes her because of her sexy white shoulders or something.  

Why does Sakura commit herself to a boy who is mean to her 90% of the time? one who ditches her on a park bench after knocking her out/? A guy who she sees years later and draws a sword on her other friend? A guy that is so bad she has to try and kill him herself? Who repeatedly tried to hurt/maim/psychologically damage her? It just does not make sense. 

It makes it seem like there is something wrong with her. 
 

 
And yet Kishi is SOOOOO SURPRISED  to hear little girls don't look up to Sakura as a role model. IT IS SHOCKING I TELL YOU.................... But in all seriousness the love triangle at this point was pointless to even continue, because the writing is STRAIGHT UP telling you that Sasuke is not even a reasonable choice of love interest to not only Sakura but any woman, because he will straight up try to kill anyone and I mean anyone that got in the way of his revenge. Even Karin still having the hots for him after what he did to her is debatable for me and I actually swing towards that even Karin should have ditched his ass because if you tried to kill someone then there is no healthy relationship ahead for either of you unless you both get therapy, and in fictionland there is none. Sasuke is NOT EVEN a CHOICE at this point, but again, here we are  
 
I've already said the same thing myself actually. Viewers must think that Sakura is not right in the head if she still can call what she viewed Sasuke as is love, especially when you compare her interactions with Naruto. It is pure logic, If a woman has such negative reactions when thinking about a man to the point she bursts into tears and looks sad when just having him even brought up in a subject of conversation, is that love? In contrast a woman that is always happy around a man and supports his goals and finds her self emotionally protecting that man despite herself, does not love him? It really is unfathomable. Like even neutral fans here that don't actually see the appeal of shipping in general have already resigned themselves to Naruto and Sakura becoming a couple just based on what they were reading in the story.

Edited by Phantom_999, 23 December 2019 - 12:51 AM.

[totherpage95]

One thing I don't get is how did Kishi write a good Couple like MinaKushi botch up NaruHina?

kishi's wife who sakura was based on made the minakushi story not kishi so it's not surprising that naruhina doesn't hit the same chords... kushina was effectively telling naruto not to marry hinata too

[Kagomaru]

I mean, Kishimoto was straight-up asked by an interviewer after Naruto ended why Sakura loved Sasuke and he shrugged his shoulders and said that he couldn't think of a reason after what Sasuke did to her.

[Tsuki Hoshino]

 

 

 

And yes I know ,I know, anime fillers, BUT STILL the anime fans DON'T QUESTION why they do so much in some episodes that don't impact the story and yet do so in others when they actually appear after so long? What I find is the main problem is that from what I remember even in the filler arcs the gals are still reduced to support roles for the guys and don't necessarily prove they are just a s capable, since it is the guys that are still the heavy lifters ultimately. But those are the fillers I remember so correct me if there are any that I missed in where the ladies are actually prominent.

 

 

 

And yet Kishi is SOOOOO SURPRISED  to hear little girls don't look up to Sakura as a role model. IT IS SHOCKING I TELL YOU.................... But in all seriousness the love triangle at this point was pointless to even continue, because the writing is STRAIGHT UP telling you that Sasuke is not even a reasonable choice of love interest to not only Sakura but any woman, because he will straight up try to kill anyone and I mean anyone that got in the way of his revenge. Even Karin still having the hots for him after what he did to her is debatable for me and I actually swing towards that even Karin should have ditched his ass because if you tried to kill someone then there is no healthy relationship ahead for either of you unless you both get therapy, and in fictionland there is none. Sasuke is NOT EVEN a CHOICE at this point, but again, here we are  

 

I've already said the same thing myself actually. Viewers must think that Sakura is not right in the head if she still can call what she viewed Sasuke as is love, especially hen you compare her interactions with Naruto. It is pure logic, If a woman has such negative reactions when thinking about a man to the point she bursts into tears and looks sad when just having him even brought up in subject of conversation, is that love? In contrast a woman that is always happy around a man and supports his goals and finds her self emotionally protecting that man despite herself does not love him? It really is unfathomable. Like even neutral fans here that don't actually see the appeal of shipping have already resigned themselves to Naruto and Sakura becoming a couple just based on what they were reading in the story.

Its likely Sakura has had more fights in filler and movies then she did in canon. Along with basically all the women. I don't watch the filler but I know it for a fact for the movies...she hasn't been the lead for the Movies since its: Naruto. I guess. 


There are a few reasons why Hinata is more liked out of Japan than Sakura, one of them being that western audiences seem clueless about Tsunderes in general. The other is more simple. Sakura shows up more than Hinata and by virtue of exposure, she kittens up more often and has a personality. 
Hinata is a blank character beyond "N-n-n-nardo-kun." -blushes and finger pokes- She has a placid personality, is nice to everybody except for the people who hurt her nardo-k00n. its a wonder she is a Ninja tbh. The only times she really gets exposure is in her big "hero" moments that really aren't heroic so much as suicidal tendencies. (for the logically inclined.) 

For the people who are motivated by character not by "moe" qualities, its her lack of faults that ARE her faults. It's hard to really like someone when there is nothing to them. 

Sakura is not like that. She's very real ( up until the end  ) She FEELS like a normal 13yr old girl in an abnormal world. For anyone who doesn't know or remember themselves or another girl at 13--you were a kitten. I was also a kitten.   most people don't like them and they very often don't even like themselves. She doesn't start out as nice to the poor suffering protagonist who adores her and is always proud of her and that annoys people because they empathize with Naruto. She doesn't stay that way, she grows to like him and support him but first impressions leave an impact. 

It's hard to watch Naruto go through so much for so little. Because as the viewer and the reader we know things Sakura doesn't know. We know how hard he fought, how much he's hurt for her. But Sakura doesn't for a very long time. 

Even when the time skip rolls around and Sakura is more active up to the Kage summit we still get to see her screwing things up. She makes a "true/false" confession that unintentionally hurts the person she is trying to help. She continues to try and help that person but kittens up because she 1.Can't commit to the bit. 2. wasn't supposed to commit to the bit because Nardo said so  Every time she tried to do something its either not good enough or the wrong thing. and it sucks because for someone who doesn't just rabidly hate her you can see her good intentions. 

There was probably a time where I was younger where I could/did look up to Sakura but now that I am 29 all I learned from her was to avoid emo men. 

I actually think Karin is into the S&M stuff.   

I think about Sakura's inner monologue when she is literally pumping Naruto's heart and I'm like "This is something you say to someone you love." She's once again echoing her thoughts from the Chuunin exam, only this time she actually believes that the dream is right in front of him and she will do whatever it takes to get him there. Its that sort of support you expect to see in a dynamic couple.
 

 

I mean, Kishimoto was straight-up asked by an interviewer after Naruto ended why Sakura loved Sasuke and he shrugged his shoulders and said that he couldn't think of a reason after what Sasuke did to her.

"I wrote it from a Nightma-i mean dream my wife had."  

Edited by Tsuki Hoshino, 25 October 2019 - 02:10 AM.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

It isn't just about how people outside of Japan don't get tsundere character types, it's more to me like they just failed to see how human Sakura was, and that because Hinata is a blank slate that she had been preferential to the fandom outside of Japan, even when her popularity was low in Japan, and how it's likely tanked a bit more since the ending and how Boruto is tanking, even as Shueisha continues to keep trying to claim it's super successful.

[VanitasDS76491]

It isn't just about how people outside of Japan don't get tsundere character types, it's more to me like they just failed to see how human Sakura was, and that because Hinata is a blank slate that she had been preferential to the fandom outside of Japan, even when her popularity was low in Japan, and how it's likely tanked a bit more since the ending and how Boruto is tanking, even as Shueisha continues to keep trying to claim it's super successful.

Agreed and hinata mad just doesn't work for her cause I saw a title of a video hinata furious reaction to jigen sealing Naruto.
Also a cardboard cutout hinata has more personality than actual hinata and is more useful.

[Tsuki Hoshino]

The only time Hinata had ever been shown "mad" was when she decided to get between Naruto and Pain and it wasnt even anger then. It was determination.

Except if you count Burrito verse where everyone acts like a bizarro version. Of themself.

[Nostradamus]

The only time Hinata had ever been shown "mad" was when she decided to get between Naruto and Pain and it wasnt even anger then. It was determination.

Except if you count Burrito verse where everyone acts like a bizarro version. Of themself.

Determination to show how selfish she truly is and how much she doesn't care about Naruto. That moment was all about her, all about her seizing her chance to finally tell Naruto how she thinks she feels and this was the only time she could do it since Naruto was pinned to the ground psychically and she knew such a moment will never arrive again. She truly is a horrible human being. 

[Tsuki Hoshino]

Well she is selfish but imo it's because she was going in intending to die and saying "I love you" and then being murdered in front of a person is one of the most psychologically damaging things I can think of and she did it not once but twice.

[Phantom_999]

but again That is more selfess than anyone has EVER DONE for POOW WITTLE NAWUTO-KUUUUN!!!!! That tsundere kitteny kitten Sakura Haruno doesn't care about him, and Hinata has been there for Naruto and loves him more than anybody else in his entire life, EVEN HIS OWN PARENTS!!!! BELIEVE IT!!!  - So is written in the Hinata Hyuga bible

 

Its likely Sakura has had more fights in filler and movies then she did in canon. Along with basically all the women. I don't watch the filler but I know it for a fact for the movies...she hasn't been the lead for the Movies since its: Naruto. I guess. 

 

 

There are a few reasons why Hinata is more liked out of Japan than Sakura, one of them being that western audiences seem clueless about Tsunderes in general. The other is more simple. Sakura shows up more than Hinata and by virtue of exposure, she kittens up more often and has a personality. 

Hinata is a blank character beyond "N-n-n-nardo-kun." -blushes and finger pokes- She has a placid personality, is nice to everybody except for the people who hurt her nardo-k00n. its a wonder she is a Ninja tbh. The only times she really gets exposure is in her big "hero" moments that really aren't heroic so much as suicidal tendencies. (for the logically inclined.)

 

For the people who are motivated by character not by "moe" qualities, its her lack of faults that ARE her faults. It's hard to really like someone when there is nothing to them. 

 

Sakura is not like that. She's very real ( up until the end  ) She FEELS like a normal 13yr old girl in an abnormal world. For anyone who doesn't know or remember themselves or another girl at 13--you were a kitten. I was also a kitten.   most people don't like them and they very often don't even like themselves. She doesn't start out as nice to the poor suffering protagonist who adores her and is always proud of her and that annoys people because they empathize with Naruto. She doesn't stay that way, she grows to like him and support him but first impressions leave an impact. 

 

It's hard to watch Naruto go through so much for so little. Because as the viewer and the reader we know things Sakura doesn't know. We know how hard he fought, how much he's hurt for her. But Sakura doesn't for a very long time. 

 

Even when the time skip rolls around and Sakura is more active up to the Kage summit we still get to see her screwing things up. She makes a "true/false" confession that unintentionally hurts the person she is trying to help. She continues to try and help that person but kittens up because she 1.Can't commit to the bit. 2. wasn't supposed to commit to the bit because Nardo said so  Every time she tried to do something its either not good enough or the wrong thing. and it sucks because for someone who doesn't just rabidly hate her you can see her good intentions. 

 

There was probably a time where I was younger where I could/did look up to Sakura but now that I am 29 all I learned from her was to avoid emo men. 

 

I actually think Karin is into the S&M stuff. 

 

I think about Sakura's inner monologue when she is literally pumping Naruto's heart and I'm like "This is something you say to someone you love." She's once again echoing her thoughts from the Chuunin exam, only this time she actually believes that the dream is right in front of him and she will do whatever it takes to get him there. Its that sort of support you expect to see in a dynamic couple.

 

I've made this argument before, but I don't think the tsundere concept is actually foreign to western audiences. The over the top portrayal of them maybe, but there are tsunderes too in western animation when you think about it. Helga Pataki from "Hey Arnold!", Cindy Vortex from "Jimmy Neutron", Angelica Pickles from "Rugrats", etc. etc. There are a lot of examples that I can list actually in western animation and while some may not show it enough to actually classify them as such the point is it pops up from time to time, so it is not "alien" to western fans if anything. No, I feel that what made Hinata so popular is again the fact that Naruto was a social pariah that was hated by almost everyone in the village and she was the only girl with a crush on him from the get go. Which actually leads to my next point

 

You're absolutely correct on Sakura being shown as a realistic girl with her flaws, but the problem does not lie with that. The problem I find is that Sakura is practically treated like a demon and is everything wrong with the Naruto Universe because she is "kind of bratty", but others GET A PASS for it? Naruto, despite his tragic back story is also a brat and social rebel, and no matter what the circumstance, the fact remains, but do fans give him kitten for it? No. What about Sasuke? He acts like a too cool for school type of brat, and his arrogance and hatred issues got him into deep kitten but fans find him "cool and sexy" instead. Ino is not that different from Sakura either, with the annoying fan girl attitude towards Sasuke and crapped on her friends/teammates at the beginning of the series like Sakura did to Naruto. But Ino is perfectly fine with the western fans, and in fact she is considered a waifu. It is Sakura that is "evil incarnate" for being "a brat". Do you see the problem with that? I sure do. It seems Sakura is the one character that her haters and NH fanatics can never let go of their initial impressions because....... why again? Especially if every other character is acknowledged as having "character development", Sakura will always be the "whiny, useless, tsundere biatch" that doesn't love Naruto and and never will. Instead she will forevermore be the "horny succubus" for Sasuke Uchiha. 

 

Yeesh, these double standard STILL piss me off even now.

Edited by Phantom_999, 09 November 2019 - 02:09 AM.

[KClaws_2]

They could have done a spin off in a completely different village with mild name dropping and cameos. It probably would have been more interesting and less inconsistent than what we have. "Why doesn't Burrito have Byakugan at birth? idk Lulz." 

Instead, in order to uplift the offspring characters the old ones are constantly getting kitten on, their personalities warped and basically desecrating everything people loved about them to begin with. I'm not kidding when i say i would rather them be all dead :zaru: 

This is 100% the route they should have gone. The original was always about Sasuke Naruto, we were always in Konoha, a sequel would have been a perfect opportunity to explore other parts of the world, like the old Star Wars Expanded Universe. 

 

 

Inuyasha/Kagome Inuyasha

Ranma/Akane Ranma1/2 

 

There are many shounen manga where the lead male ends up with the lead female who is a tsundere but I guess Kishi made an exception even if he did the 15 year old development (which it was a red herring ).

I think there was an anti-tsundere trend going on in Japan at the time, though it was probably a vocal minority. Watsuki mentioned this when making the rebooted Kenshin (the one where Jin-e had swords THROUGH his hands). Maybe the trope does need to be redone and go into hibernation for a while, but if a story was already being done with those tropes, it had to follow through with it. 
Like maybe one day people will be turned off by gore in some situations. Maybe future stories should address that change in taste, but ongoing stories already using that need to keep using that, otherwise they will just betray what they once were.

 

Endlessly creepy. And the last one, its the same fake smile they kittened at Sai for. 

It was at that moment Sakura realized she made a terrible mistake.

 

I’m also perplexed by these NH fans getting triggered over fanfics, years after the ending. They’re FANFICS; if they were a threat to the actual canon, one of them would be animated by now. Jeez, if our ship became canon, I just wouldn’t have anything to do with them.

 

Besides, 90% of fan fiction has pairings different from their original canons.

[Phantom_999]

That's what I'm saying fan fiction has no impact on canon and doesn't change canon. So what's RUBBING THEM the wrong way with NS fanfiction? Low self esteem?

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

That's what I'm saying fan fiction has no impact on canon and doesn't change canon. So what's RUBBING THEM the wrong way with NS fanfiction? Low self esteem?

 

The fact that we're still shipping NaruSaku regardless of what they think they wanted?