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#41 Konoha'sCrimsonFox

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 10:49 AM

The thing is, who other than Sakura could be the special female character ? A character that he forgot to insert in the manga ?

 

A special female character has to be shown that she's not like other female characters. Who else could it be beside Sakura ? :P

 

If Kishimoto really didn't care then Sakura would not have hundreds of panel time and some good development from the first place like the side characters. She went everywhere with the protagonist, had hundreds of panels, good development ( before her character assassination in the last 2 chapters along with other characters ), battled and showed huge strength many times.

 

It's called heroine. She's the heroine according to Kishimoto in his main characters list, the data books and the manga. 

 

Sakura did cut out of appearance at some point, but we all know the drag of the war against Pein, the alliances arrival is a big drag, Naruto and Kakashi boys fight with Obito and Madara, etc. In fact, Sakura has more appearances than Sasuke and what she's doing in the story. She comes second after Naruto in these terms.

 

After all this and what I was reading for years, if Kishimoto meant that Sakura is not a special female character and it's another one, which there's nowhere else in the manga to be seen of such character, then I'm kinda stunned of passing one of grade school's simplest question : " Who are the main characters of this story ? "

 

He just saying what the editors and pro enders want to hear. He cares little about the Naru universe. Clearly Jump editors are not satisfied with Kishi's BS statements. Kish already dropped the ball. There is no turning back.  Does not matter now if he still like Sakura or hates her. All he needs to know he should talk less, move on to his scifi manga in peace and know that the legacy of Sakura's character (not the current Boruto kitten) is now in good hands of a person/author that think highly and well deserving of her being a "special female character/heroine" in his original fictions.

 


Edited by Konoha'sCrimsonFox, 01 February 2017 - 10:58 AM.

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#42 rocci

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 12:17 PM

So sakura is not special female character? I would not call that to a character that the author himself identify as the heroine, love interest, and the most appearance of female character in this manga as not a special character

Did he forget that the love triangle in the manga is one side love triangle between naruto sakura sasuke? To the point that he make parallel from the older generation.

I don't think a battle manga is a good excuse to not make Hinata naruto sakura love triangle unless he realize that Hinata has so little appearance rather than no time to write that because your manga more dramatic than a shojo manga.

#43 TouKen4Life3g

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 12:19 PM

Debating if I should talk about this...

#44 T XD

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 12:56 PM

 

He just saying what the editors and pro enders want to hear. He cares little about the Naru universe. Clearly Jump editors are not satisfied with Kishi's BS statements. Kish already dropped the ball. There is no turning back.  Does not matter now if he still like Sakura or hates her. All he needs to know he should talk less, move on to his scifi manga in peace and know that the legacy of Sakura's character (not the current Boruto kitten) is now in good hands of a person/author that think highly and well deserving of her being a "special female character/heroine" in his original fictions.

 

I think if he could move to his new manga, he would have done it. like this pic X3 


Edited by T XD, 01 February 2017 - 12:57 PM.


#45 rocci

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 12:57 PM

Debating if I should talk about this...

Personally, I want to hear your thought about this.
Since I read comment section, most really agree on what kishi said about the romance.

Edited by rocci, 01 February 2017 - 12:57 PM.


#46 TouKen4Life3g

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 02:00 PM

Personally, I want to hear your thought about this.
Since I read comment section, most really agree on what kishi said about the romance.

It definitely doesn't excuse the bad writing, which is one thing people somewhat keeps dismissing. After reading/watching other series, this series truly is a mess. You may say, "But you're comparing to others. That's not fair." Even so, it's still a mess. I never seen a series that has somewhat obvious pair whether it happens or not, only to go completely off the radar. Not even Bleach was this bad.

Edited by TouKen4Life3g, 01 February 2017 - 02:02 PM.


#47 tricksie

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 02:15 PM

If Hinata was supposed to be the main love interest she should of appeared in chapter 3 instead of Sakura!

 

I have that Japan is having childbirth and marriageable problems, so yeah I can kind of understand why he might went to try and get young readers to appeal to this type of Marriage.

However given the negative response to not only just the ending and The Last movie it seems like to me ( I recall hearing Japanese fans calling Naruto the ultimate scumbag) this completely backfired and put off young Naruto fans more away from the traditional marriage lifestyle.

It definitely backfired. I don't think he was expecting the amount of negativity he got from the bait-and-switch ending. And of course, it didn't have to be that way. He could have fleshed out his characters, made believable romantic storylines and most importantly not sacrificed Sakura and her happiness at the altar of Sasuke. Honestly, I think if Kishi had done right by Sakura and given her a better ending with a mutually loving relationship with SS, people would have been...well, not exactly happier, but at least satisfied.

 

You're exactly right: the fact that Kishimoto is still focusing on this single issue of shipping, loooong after the ending, shows that it's still a problem. That he knows he pulled one over on his fans, and he's still having to justify it. 

 

The thing is, who other than Sakura could be the special female character ? A character that he forgot to insert in the manga ?

 

A special female character has to be shown that she's not like other female characters. Who else could it be beside Sakura ? :P

 

If Kishimoto really didn't care then Sakura would not have hundreds of panel time and some good development from the first place like the side characters. She went everywhere with the protagonist, had hundreds of panels, good development ( before her character assassination in the last 2 chapters along with other characters ), battled and showed huge strength many times.

 

It's called heroine. She's the heroine according to Kishimoto in his main characters list, the data books and the manga. 

 

Sakura did cut out of appearance at some point, but we all know the drag of the war against Pein, the alliances arrival is a big drag, Naruto and Kakashi boys fight with Obito and Madara, etc. In fact, Sakura has more appearances than Sasuke and what she's doing in the story. She comes second after Naruto in these terms.

 

After all this and what I was reading for years, if Kishimoto meant that Sakura is not a special female character and it's another one, which there's nowhere else in the manga to be seen of such character, then I'm kinda stunned of passing one of grade school's simplest question : " Who are the main characters of this story ? "

Yes, I remember it being mentioned that Sakura alone was the only other person in all the movies, outside of Naruto and Sasuke. It was always Sakura. You can't just erase years of development and storylines by saying, 'oh that? i didn't really mean that! when you saw Sakura you should have been thinking of hinata instead!'

 

To me it seems like he is only saying this stuff to please the pro-ending fans that still buy Naruto merchandise. They figure it's fine to throw us under the bus, because most of us do not buy anything Naruto related anymore.

 

This doesn't really bother me that much anymore, it's the same crap we've been hearing from him since the manga ended. Nothing is ever going to change and I don't expect it to. There's not really anything we can do about it.

Right - I think it has to do with pushing Boruto and the merchandise. I have to wonder, if SJ interviewed him and there wasn't a Naruto spin off going on, what would Kishimoto say instead? Would he still be pushing NH? Or would he relent and say that things could have gone different ways, with NS and SK like after "The True End." (Or would he tell the truth, that he really didn't care about any of the female characters at all??)

 

 

Debating if I should talk about this...

Do it. Do it. Do it.

 

So sakura is not special female character? I would not call that to a character that the author himself identify as the heroine, love interest, and the most appearance of female character in this manga as not a special character

Did he forget that the love triangle in the manga is one side love triangle between naruto sakura sasuke? To the point that he make parallel from the older generation.

I don't think a battle manga is a good excuse to not make Hinata naruto sakura love triangle unless he realize that Hinata has so little appearance rather than no time to write that because your manga more dramatic than a shojo manga.

Exactly - the fact that he parallels these relationships all over the place is a dead giveaway of what Kishimoto had planned. NOWHERE is NH paralleled. It's always a triangle. 



#48 Konohakitten

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 03:08 PM

Yes, it is an attempt to give Boruto a boost by having kishimoto give another interview.

 

I don't think the final pairings had to do with anything involving Japan's declining population. The ending was entirely about trying to appeal the international market, and from what they could find...from youtube reviewers the international market wanted nH. But that didn't work and they are dealing with is what a dead franchise by this point and are forcing people to keep it alive.

 

 I swear Naruto/Sakura/Hinata is the worst love triangle I've ever seen. One girl is literally barely ever there, and she is the one who won in the end. 

 

They probably are, I'm still thinking about writing my own essay to him. If nothing else to get him to stop giving interview and just go to his scifi manga. The thing is he wrote all of this. He wrote Naruto marriage life sucks. He wrote Sasuke is an deadbeat father. He the one that decided to make the main pairings as awful as they are now. Which turned off a large number of pro end and people that were will to give Boruto a try. His own choices after the ending have done nothing but hurt its sequel.

 

At the Start of the manga:

 Naruto/Hero

 Sakura/Heroine

 Sasuke/Rival

 Kakashi/Mentor 

By the End of the Manga:

 Sasuke/Hero  

 Hinata/Heroine

 Sasuke's Past/Rival

 Orochimaru/Mentor

 

^ Omg this right here is a thing of beauty! I couldn't have said it better myself!


Edited by Konohakitten, 01 February 2017 - 03:08 PM.

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#49 tricksie

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 06:27 PM

 

^ Omg this right here is a thing of beauty! I couldn't have said it better myself!

Yes! I passed over that, but you're exactly right! Well put, Bail.

 

So is there a trope name for when a hero gets dumped at the end of the series? Or when the anti-hero ends up with undeserved swag while the hero just gets the satisfaction of doing everything for the greater good? Or when the hero's stated goals remain unfulfilled?

 

I looked at tvtropes, but I'm just having a hard time even nailing down what exactly I'm looking for. "Author gave up on hero in the end??"   :confused:

 

Edit: Found "Decoy Protagonist," but everything listed underneath it seems to be standard twists to keep the plot moving. What Kishimoto did, of undoing the hero's goals and shuffling the pairing, doesn't seem to fit into the tropes. Maybe we should create one called "Author Makes a Quick Exit!"



#50 harry4e

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 07:35 PM

Someone needs to collaborate all his answers and see all the BS he's spouted over the years about the pairing, Sakura was just meant to be another Kiba level character? Then why did he put so much effort in her character, trying to change the publics view of her? Why was she put in the team in the first place? Why did he not put a single hint that Naruto saw Hinata as anything other than a Kiba level friend? He never once saw her as a female just another friend, he only ever showed interest in Sakura. Why have both Naruto's parents give Sakura their blessing? Kushina all but described Sakura as the perfect match from him and Minato's words to her were he leaves his son in her hands. Also how come he just mentions this now? Why was she the heroine in his previous interviews? 

 

The thing about triangles is it needs to be a triangle...there was no triangle at all.

 

Then he finishes off with his classic, 'it's a battle manga' or I'm not good at romance so romance wasn't shown much...BS, the entire manga was about relationships, it wasn't just battles it was about bonds between friends, comrades family, loved ones, Bonds and that was why it was a success, as a battle manga it would have never been as popular as it was.


iAnby7W.gif


#51 tricksie

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 08:02 PM

Someone needs to collaborate all his answers and see all the BS he's spouted over the years about the pairing, Sakura was just meant to be another Kiba level character? Then why did he put so much effort in her character, trying to change the publics view of her? Why was she put in the team in the first place? Why did he not put a single hint that Naruto saw Hinata as anything other than a Kiba level friend? He never once saw her as a female just another friend, he only ever showed interest in Sakura. Why have both Naruto's parents give Sakura their blessing? Kushina all but described Sakura as the perfect match from him and Minato's words to her were he leaves his son in her hands. Also how come he just mentions this now? Why was she the heroine in his previous interviews? 

 

The thing about triangles is it needs to be a triangle...there was no triangle at all.

Think back to all the non-manga ads, posters, sales promotionals, etc. It was never Hinata. It was always either Naruto and Sakura being happy, Naruto and Sasuke fighting or it was Team 7. Cardboard cut out for for a blood drive? Naruto and Sakura. Promotional wrap of a train car? Naruto and Sakura. Figurines, plushies, posters and jewelry? All yes for each member of Team 7. Not so much for Hinata.

 

Someone compiled NS moments from the manga, it would be interesting to compare how much Team 7 (and specifically Naruto and Sakura side-by-side) images, ads and toys were put out there vs. Hinata and Naruto together. Or even Hinata standing out from a general group pic.

 

Kishimoto can "say" all he wants about how important Hinata is. But he can't rewrite the fact that up until the end of the war arc, no one gave a crap about Hinata. Including him. 



#52 LuckyChi7

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 08:11 PM

SO I ventured into the naruto couples wiki, and I found something interesting..  to no suprise kishi contridicts once again!

 

 

according to the trivia section for NaruSaku; 

 

  • Kishimoto has considered making this couple canon throughout the series, but based on the reasoning where he pities Hinata for her longstanding crush on Naruto, NaruHina became canon instead.
  • Kishimoto was also afraid of the backlash where Sakura might be seen as a "bad" woman for changing her affections, therefore he scrapped the idea of NaruSaku.
  • In the New York Comic Con Interview 2015, Kishimoto said his wife and some animators of Studio Perriot were disappointed and upset that Naruto did not get together with Sakura.

 

I've heard about it before for a while now, but since I know full well it's the truth  as an inspiring writer I'm utterly disgusted. 

 

here is the link: http://narutocouple....NaruSaku#Trivia


Edited by LuckyChi7, 01 February 2017 - 08:13 PM.

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#53 TouKen4Life3g

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 08:49 PM

Perhaps I should hop in. I was engaged with other parts at twitter, but pairings I stood away.



#54 LuckyChi7

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 08:51 PM

Perhaps I should hop in. I was engaged with other parts at twitter, but pairings I stood away.

 

Go for it!


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#55 T XD

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 10:37 PM

@ LuckyChi7: I hope his wife get some sense into his head again after his latest interview.


Edited by T XD, 01 February 2017 - 10:38 PM.


#56 Bail o' Lies

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 10:57 PM

It definitely doesn't excuse the bad writing, which is one thing people somewhat keeps dismissing. After reading/watching other series, this series truly is a mess. You may say, "But you're comparing to others. That's not fair." Even so, it's still a mess. I never seen a series that has somewhat obvious pair whether it happens or not, only to go completely off the radar. Not even Bleach was this bad.

Bleach as much as one might disagree did set up the end pairings long before hand. Orihime always had a crush on Ichigo, and was notice by all their companions(who all seemed to support her attempt to gain Ichigo's attention). Renji as much as some of you might disagree was heavily implied to have feeling for Rukia since at least his second fight with Ichigo.

 

It definitely backfired. I don't think he was expecting the amount of negativity he got from the bait-and-switch ending. And of course, it didn't have to be that way. He could have fleshed out his characters, made believable romantic storylines and most importantly not sacrificed Sakura and her happiness at the altar of Sasuke. Honestly, I think if Kishi had done right by Sakura and given her a better ending with a mutually loving relationship with SS, people would have been...well, not exactly happier, but at least satisfied.

 

You're exactly right: the fact that Kishimoto is still focusing on this single issue of shipping, loooong after the ending, shows that it's still a problem. That he knows he pulled one over on his fans, and he's still having to justify it. 

 

Yes, I remember it being mentioned that Sakura alone was the only other person in all the movies, outside of Naruto and Sasuke. It was always Sakura. You can't just erase years of development and storylines by saying, 'oh that? i didn't really mean that! when you saw Sakura you should have been thinking of hinata instead!'

 

Right - I think it has to do with pushing Boruto and the merchandise. I have to wonder, if SJ interviewed him and there wasn't a Naruto spin off going on, what would Kishimoto say instead? Would he still be pushing NH? Or would he relent and say that things could have gone different ways, with NS and SK like after "The True End." (Or would he tell the truth, that he really didn't care about any of the female characters at all??)

 

Do it. Do it. Do it.

 

Exactly - the fact that he parallels these relationships all over the place is a dead giveaway of what Kishimoto had planned. NOWHERE is NH paralleled. It's always a triangle. 

They thought that the international fanbase; which was the main appeal of Naruto to SJ was a nH supporting majority. So they were willing to abandon all their other fans for it.

 

The reason why kishimoto can't stop talking about it is because the decision to support the retcon is still haunting him both in his career, his personal life, and mentally. His career and his reputation was destroyed by the decision to go through with it, and now he stuck being the editor to it sequel. His wife is upset (she may have forgiven him at this point but "the decision" probably still hurts her) about him not pairing up the characters that represented the two of them. The kids since kishimoto is never home from what I understand sided with mommy and do not respect him. His brother has been able to do another manga in the time he been stuck keeping an eye on Boruto. Father died before the ending, so he has to wonder how he disappointed his father would be if he was still alive. Mentally look at the last few sentences his professional and personal life was ruined by his capitulation.

 

What is more humiliating being proven wrong about some of your story's romantic pairings or being right but was convinced you were wrong so you change the pairings at the end thinking that what your fans wanted only to discover you were right at the beginning and your capitulation destroyed everything?

 

Sakura was in every movie from what I can recall other then Naruto no other character can claim that.

 

Look at the interviews after they realized the last was a failure, but before the Boruto manga started for your answer on how he reacts. He clearly resents the pairings nH/SS for destroying his life, and can't stop talking kitten about them or the people who convinced him to go through with them (indirectly in the latter case.)

 

Yes! I passed over that, but you're exactly right! Well put, Bail.

 

So is there a trope name for when a hero gets dumped at the end of the series? Or when the anti-hero ends up with undeserved swag while the hero just gets the satisfaction of doing everything for the greater good? Or when the hero's stated goals remain unfulfilled?

 

I looked at tvtropes, but I'm just having a hard time even nailing down what exactly I'm looking for. "Author gave up on hero in the end??"   :confused:

 

Edit: Found "Decoy Protagonist," but everything listed underneath it seems to be standard twists to keep the plot moving. What Kishimoto did, of undoing the hero's goals and shuffling the pairing, doesn't seem to fit into the tropes. Maybe we should create one called "Author Makes a Quick Exit!"

Naruto is Sasuke's morality chain not his rival. There really isn't anyone that gives Sasuke any challenge by the end. The Uchiha are no longer the main villains. So all that's left is Sasuke redemption journey. So the only thing that is challenging him in any way and striving him to do better is his past. Hinata was given the ending, and since Sakura is no longer the heroine in the eyes of the creative team she get's the title by default. Orochimaru is the one in the novel to tell Sasuke he should be the guy who works in the shadow to protect the village. So the way Sasuke acts is because of Orochimaru's mentoring not Kakashi's.

 

There isn't really any one thing to describe what happened with the ending. One would have to make a list of tropes.

 

Think back to all the non-manga ads, posters, sales promotionals, etc. It was never Hinata. It was always either Naruto and Sakura being happy, Naruto and Sasuke fighting or it was Team 7. Cardboard cut out for for a blood drive? Naruto and Sakura. Promotional wrap of a train car? Naruto and Sakura. Figurines, plushies, posters and jewelry? All yes for each member of Team 7. Not so much for Hinata.

 

Someone compiled NS moments from the manga, it would be interesting to compare how much Team 7 (and specifically Naruto and Sakura side-by-side) images, ads and toys were put out there vs. Hinata and Naruto together. Or even Hinata standing out from a general group pic.

 

Kishimoto can "say" all he wants about how important Hinata is. But he can't rewrite the fact that up until the end of the war arc, no one gave a crap about Hinata. Including him. 

Remember how after the tsunami a few years back the way they told people not to give up hope was a NS ova?

 

Apparently there was a hinata clock that alarm was Nana Mizuki singing her song from the last. From what I understand it did not sell well. The only thing hinata sell really is love pillows.



#57 BlueStarSaber

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 11:29 PM

One annoying about thing about this interview is how all the youtube anime reviewers who are partly responsible for how the ending happened due their constant bashing of Sakura & Hinata favouritism are now starting to post their pointless thoughts which many will take as facts.

 

It definitely backfired. I don't think he was expecting the amount of negativity he got from the bait-and-switch ending. And of course, it didn't have to be that way. He could have fleshed out his characters, made believable romantic storylines and most importantly not sacrificed Sakura and her happiness at the altar of Sasuke. Honestly, I think if Kishi had done right by Sakura and given her a better ending with a mutually loving relationship with SS, people would have been...well, not exactly happier, but at least satisfied.

 

You're exactly right: the fact that Kishimoto is still focusing on this single issue of shipping, loooong after the ending, shows that it's still a problem. That he knows he pulled one over on his fans, and he's still having to justify it. 

 

Yes, I remember it being mentioned that Sakura alone was the only other person in all the movies, outside of Naruto and Sasuke. It was always Sakura. You can't just erase years of development and storylines by saying, 'oh that? i didn't really mean that! when you saw Sakura you should have been thinking of hinata instead!'

 

Exactly - the fact that he parallels these relationships all over the place is a dead giveaway of what Kishimoto had planned. NOWHERE is NH paralleled. It's always a triangle. 

 

He honestly should of known when you lie or false advertise to your reader you asking for trouble. I honestly don't think with the exception of SS & NH fans that anyone would of been satisfied with a SS ending, as the biggest contribute to all the hate she was getting was her feelings for him especially after he tried to kill her, If she was coupled up with ether Lee, Sai or Ino would likely be more accepting as they at least had positive interactions with her.

He is just adding fuel to the fire, at best he should just keep to one story or don't talk about it at all!

She and Naruto are the only ones to appear in all of them, sasuke was only in a handful due to them coming out by the time he left kohona. Heck it was where she got the most action (sadly), the first 4 movies she always had a one on one fight (my favourite one was with this scene ) and the rest also had some form of supporting role or participated in a team battle (with the exception of the 4th Shippuden film where her role was minor). All those movies (Even though I think only the land of snow, the will of fire and road to Ninja are the only really good ones with the rest being ether ok or meh with even though I haven't watched them with exception of a view screen shots and watching their biggest fight scenes, The Last and Baruto being both terrible) made me think Sakura was the main female character even when I found out the movies weren't canonI didn't even think of Hinata unless she was in the movie which was only three before the last.

Along with the fact many of the past characters even confirm they are more or less like them, like when Naruto said yes to his dead father that Sakura was more or less his girlfriend resulting Sakura head butting him having Minato think she is like Kushina.

@ LuckyChi7: I hope his wife get some sense into his head again after his latest interview.

I more in line to think they would have another argument.



#58 T XD

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 11:40 PM

I more in line to think they would have another argument.

Kishimoto entering the house, only to find himself pinned against the wall : " You goof. Didn't I say to you to stop saying things about pairings. You barely made it after the ending. ", says his wife :P


Edited by T XD, 01 February 2017 - 11:56 PM.


#59 soraandven

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Posted 02 February 2017 - 04:22 AM

the nh fandom is buying into kishi's bs they still are very blind


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#60 soraandven

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Posted 02 February 2017 - 04:38 AM

You know I actually wanted to say that. It's been close to 3 years now and this idiot is still trying to convince people that the sudden change in the ending was planned and foreshadowed all along.

I wonder how long will it take for him to realize that no one on this planet believes his bs.

except people like tim and sawyer


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Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: interview, kishimoto, 2017, shonen jump

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