179 replies to this topic

[Slextrem]

Do you think Sakura will obtain SSM by the end of the series? Why or why not?

[TouKen4Life3g]

If Hashirama does have one but don't show it on-screen, then yes, Sakura will be the one. If no one has it, then yes, Sakura will be the first. Those are the conditions to make it happen in my opinion. We just keep playing the waiting game.

[Lid]

Well it hasn't been necessarily stated that a "slug sage mode" exists yet has it? Regardless though, I think that if there was a mode like that, then yes, Sakura would probably be likely to reach it I would imagine. Will she? Who knows, but I think it would be at least possible.

 

My question is, would Sakura get weird slug eyes like the toad sage mode does with Naruto?

[sushi.]

It is likely if;

 

Sasuke gets it too, they'll be the new sannin.

She gets a major battle.

It is related to her seal.

Edited by sushi., 01 September 2013 - 05:36 PM.

[Quinny52]

@ Lid - to answer your question, it hasn't been outright stated by any character that a Slug variant of Sage Mode exists, though it has been strongly alluded to. Kabuto (after unveiling his Sage Mode) stated that Mount Myóboku (Toads), Ryúchi Cave (Snakes) and Shikkotsu Forest were the 3 locations where an individual who had a contract with the respective animal inhabitants of these 3 sites could come and train in Senjutsu. Very recently, Orochimaru confirmed that Katsuyu (and presumably others of her kind) came from Shikkotsu Forest. Further clues can be found in the name; 'Shikkotsurin' literally means 'Damp Bone Forest', and while slugs have no skeletal structure, they typically thrive in damp, humid environments. With this evidence, it's safe to presume that there is a Slug Sage Mode available, if nothing else to balance the powers of the 3 animal species. And while more info needs to be revealed of its origin, Hashirama's Sage Mode is rumored to be the Slug version.

 

I am a fervent believer in the theory that Sakura will become a Slug Sage in the near future, though there are certain issues that have to be solved before she can meet the conditions needed to train and attain the form. If/when those are dealt with, and she also develops her latent talent for Genjutsu, then she can take her rightful place at Naruto's side on the frontline.

Edited by Quinny52, 01 September 2013 - 07:20 PM.

[Atheck]

*continuation of the debate from the other topic*
 

About that metaphorical glass, one can recover their chakra after resting or through healing.

They're only restoring the chakra volumes which they naturally have. You can't exceed those limitations by yourself without the assistance of foreign DNA or a bijuu. The Kurama shroud that Sakura just received would provide her with additional chakra to use, but it doesn't magnify her own capacity. If it did then everyone would be left with a carrying capacity the size of a jinchuuriki's once the shroud dissipated. 
 

The way I see it, the glass bottle that's Sakura been filling for later use has a fixed capacity

 
No limitations on the quantity of chakra that can be stored within the fuinjutsu was ever stated. Theoretically chakra could continue to be siphoned off to it for eternity but it wouldn't change its unaltered composition neither would the internal volume be impacted.
 

and is cut off from her primary chakra tank

 
Someone with the Yin Seal has never been stated to have such weaknesses. In fact, Sakura had recently used all of her natural reserves in a chakra enhanced attack during #632 whilst having the seal already materialised on her forehead.
 

unlike Kurama's which mixes automatically with Naruto's, it's hard for me to explain, but I see it like this:

 
Although Kurama's gigantic reservoir does influence Naruto's chakra volumes, he does keep his own supply separate. That was the premise for the battle inside of Naruto's mind at the beginning of the war actually. He was fighting to seize Kurama's preserved chakra and then put into storage for later uses. So no, they're not completely mixed together.
 

Each day, a quarter of the water in the jug is poured into the glass, but does that mean the water in the glass is poured back into the jug? no, it doesn't automatically pour back into the jug because she has manipulated it so.

 
You're confusing the meaning of the representation pieces. The jug is intended to function as the chakra production process whilst the glass is Sakura's capacity. That quarter supply of water would be poured into the bottle. And no, you don't return the liquid to the jug because it has been placed into the glass which is now occupying a portion of what available space it has.

 

With that said, as the water is constantly poured everyday, it eventually builds up to materialize the seal. Then, if you have Sakura's primary tank at 100% (after resting)  and you release the secondary tank to add on top of it, you get an individual whose chakra levels are above average shinobi.

 
How exactly was this conclusion reached? Was the glass and water bottle somehow fused together to create a larger carrying device? I explained that the glass is left unaltered when water is being given to the water bottle for separate use. You're just creating a different source whose existence has no repercussions on the size or width of the glass.

Sakura's internal chakra volume is left unaltered because the seal is just an external battery. It doesn't magnify the quantity of chakra that she can create. You're just using a different source of chakra for your jutsu. Senjutsu development takes place at the beginning stages of chakra development.
 

After releasing the seal to fulfill the necessary amount of chakra needed to gather Natural Energy, SM becomes possible to use.

 
I've explained this so many times now but for some reason other users persist in arguing that already created chakra somehow alters this development process when it does nothing to it. 


 
This is the third time that I have posted this page that describes the senjutsu development process. Do you see how natural energy is being assigned whilst the chakra is being made? There's no reference to chakra already created having any sort of relevance to this process. It happens before the creation process has finished. The chakra in Sakura's seal has been already developed. It's nothing but regular, unadulterated chakra. There's no suggestion anywhere within the manga that argues that you can insert already developed chakra into this process. 
 
Jake and I have both stressed this point many times now but you and the other user don't seem to understand what it is we're saying. 
 

Of course, I suspect her time limit in SM would be even shorter than what Naruto can manage due to her circumstances being different from the likes of Jiraiya and Naruto.

 
She won't even have SM in all likelihood. Given that her role is support usually, such an ability would be pointless when all of the tools she could ever need to heal her allies are already available to her. What does it indicate or achieve besides some pointless notion of symbolism? 
 

As for what Fukasaku said, I suppose we simply have different interpretations on it.

 
It's pretty clear-cut. A diagram was even given to show how senjutsu is the harmonious combination of stamina, spiritual energy, and natural energy. 
 

The way I see it, SM is possible as long as you have enough chakra to absorb Natural Energy.

 
 Do you see how natural energy is being assigned whilst the chakra is being made? There's no reference to chakra already created having any sort of relevance to this process. It happens before the creation process has finished. The chakra in Sakura's seal has been already developed. It's nothing but regular, unadulterated chakra. There's no suggestion anywhere within the manga that argues that you can insert already developed chakra into this process. 
 
A pictorial representation of chakra development was provided to show that natural energy is injected at the beginning of the cycle. There's nothing ambiguous about it. It's pretty straightforward. I don't see how you can be any more direct or basic than that. 
 

It doesn't matter how you obtain the necessary amount of chakra required,

 
Natural carrying or development capacity for chakra != Usable chakra from an external source
 
Your reference is to an external battery, which again, does nothing to amplify the quantity of chakra that you can develop or hold without an outside source. Again I refer to the battery and generator comparison. The battery doesn't take the place of the generator because it's an inestimable amount of times weaker and less powerful than the machine. 
 

because from what I get of what he said, it's ambiguous enough for Sakura to bypass her lack of chakra.

 
You're not explaining how or why it's ambiguous. The diagram was given and so was an explanation for how senjutsu is developed with no contradictions made. There's nothing that can be interpreted in a multifaceted way. You're just assuming the same stance that the other user did by relying on far-fetched impressions of questionability without giving a reason for how you came to that conclusion. The page provided has gone uncontested ever since this debate started. There's only been detraction made without explaining or arguing against the actual substance of the evidence. 
         

I had a theory about this that I posted in the debate thread. I think the SO6P had foreseen the future far enough that the Juubi would one day revive.Which is why he had to formulate a backup plan in the form of teaching Senjutsu to the snakes, frogs and slugs. Hell, considering Saiken himself is a slug, I wouldn't be surprised if Saiken knew of Senjutsu. But however, due to the lack of control Saiken had (much like the Juubi did). He would need a Jinchuuriki to impart its knowledge on to effectively use Senjutsu.
 
In fact, this what I think the Sage had in mind. He'd hoped that with Saiken's massive chakra (despite being only the 4th strongest) and by adding Natural Energy on top of that, humans would have a strong enough ally to take on the Juubi. In fact, I think the only reason Kurama and the others doesn't know how to use Senjutsu is because they lack the patience to actually learn it.

 
Not really important to the issue at hand. You should conserve that discussion for a different topic.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Topic question: No, probably not with how Kishi has been developing Sakura lately. If she obtains any further power ups then it will probably result in the Byakugou jutsu. It's consistent with her status as a medical ninja and a fighter as a secondary profession (occasionally).

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

*continuation of the debate from the other topic*

         

 
Not really important to the issue at hand. You should conserve that discussion for a different topic.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Topic question: No, probably not with how Kishi has been developing Sakura lately. If she obtains any further power ups then it will probably result in the Byakugou jutsu. It's consistent with her status as a medical ninja and a fighter as a secondary profession (occasionally).

I have the same thought, what's the point of giving her a sage mode when Kishi doenst make her fight, she got a powerup but her most featured skill was the fact she could heal everyone at once.

If Kishi gives her a sage mode, then i hope Kishi place her to fight alongside Naruto rather than healing.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 01 September 2013 - 07:19 PM.

[catsi563]

the inclusion of a slug sage mode is a possibility Sakura would be the most likely candidate for it as well given the stories direction.

 

And if she did develop it , it would most likely presage her entry into the battle in a more intensive fashion.

[James S Cassidy]

Atheck, I want to tell you something that I know you are going to hate. No, I am going to bring forth something to table that alot of you are going to hate. Something that you will try to argue, but utterly fail at because in the end when you have a world where the rules can and has at times changed as it went.

You want to argue that if the Frog Sage mode uses "this" principle then the same logic should be applied to all the others. Fair assessment, but you forget that Kishi could write something different and or change the rules to it if he so chooses. If he wants Sakura to have a sage mode, he can break his own rules or even say that for "this one" the rules are a little different.

Let me give an example of the Sharingan and how it's rules were changed. In the beginning, Itachi established that in order to get the Mangekyo Sharingan you had to kill your best friend. This was backed up by Itachi's best friend dying (and some established that Itachi killed him) and Sasuke attempting to kill Naruto. Later on, we realize that Sasuke doesn't need to kill his best friend as killing his brother would be just as effective. Sasuke didn't kill Itachi did he? Itachi died. So how could he have gained the Mangekyo Sharingan? So the rules were change to "Well, you don't really need to kill anyone, you just have to feel the lose of that said person and being really sad in order to gain it." We went from a very specific criteria to a very generalized one to the point that any emotional trauma could trigger a MS. Hell, we have canon that Sasuke already unlocked the original Sharingan, but seem to have "forgotten it." Same with Kakashi and his MS. Everything was so vague enough that as much as we want to say that it is weird, it still fit.

You'd probably argue that "Well, it is very simple logic...and blah blah blah," Well, yeah we know this now, but back then it was established that Sasuke had to kill Naruto to gain the Mangekyo Sharingan. So it was changed to something different than what was establishes before. Was this always the plan or was it changed to suit the story? We don't know. Maybe both. You can't tell me that you know what was well established and what wasn't and "always was the plan" because even Kishi himself says the story has changed in several areas.

We have Obito's sharingan ability. Now abilities that we have seen require the MS. Obito unlocked his ability with the MS, but ever notice that he never seems to change his eye into the MS to use his MS ability? Why is that? Why does Kakashi have to use the MS to create those portals, but Obito can do it without using MS at all? Doesn't that seem a little weird. Given also that he can go blind from this ability, shouldn't he be blind by now or does his ever wall of sharingan keep him refreshed on eyes? Although we never see him replace his right eye at all with another Sharingan. So now we have Obito bending and break rules.

So what now the bad guys can bend and break rules to jutsu, but the good guys can't?

In part 1, many believed and still believe the Byakugan and the Sharingan have a connection to each other, but this has never been expressed upon nor elaborated on. Even Kakashi said something about it and many proclaimed it to be something as part of a whole. Is that the same to this day? Some say it has changed and the Byakugon has nothing in common with the Sharingan. Is it true? We are not certain. It would have been left to a rumor and a theory or it could have started out one way and developed into another because Kishi thought the idea was stupid or didn't fit.

The Rinnegan. At times it was established that the Uzumaki had the ability to unlock the Rinnegan, but now we have Madara have it and it was made that in some way his eyes were placed in Nagato so he could have the ability. What is the true evolution of the real Rinnegan? Again, we have theories, but we don't really have the real story. We know it involves senju DNA, but not sure how mixing the two creates the Rinnegan. Is Senju DNA enough to unlock it? Apparently not. What if Naruto unlocks the Rinnegan? Many people theorized it ever since the first reveal of said eyes.

 

Another example I want to bring up is how the Rasengan was formed by looking at the Tailed-beast bomb. One technique was made by looking at the blueprints of another. This will come a little later.

You post the page about how the Sage mode requires balance with the chakra in the body. Well the answer is in the page itself. Sakura is excellent with chakra manipulation, something Naruto is not very good with. He is not bad, but he could be better. Sakura could use that to her advantage to use Sage mode in that way and learn it much quicker. We have a universe where you can bring dead people back to life, you don't think this is also possible? If the main point is not how much chakra you have, but rather maintaining a balance, then why not have Sakura learn it? We also Naruto bypass some rules when it comes to sage mode in that he can not fuse himself with the frogs to gain nature energy and instead just clones. We also have moments where Naruto has gained Sage mode while being mobile and or not meditating. He takes in energy in mere seconds and uses the ability. So we come to establish that as long as the motion is balanced, you can absorb nature chakra while on the move as long as the movement is a steady balanced pace.

 

As I already established just because some rules were already set does not mean they can't be changed or altered to suit a plot point better. Like all the times the Sharingan has been through.

We also Hashirama's sage mode which has two things different from the other sage modes in that A. it has no summon affliation and B. seems to be more about wood than animal. (Also, side note, his sage mode doesn't progress to include his clones.) Does this mean that there are more than one kind of Sage mode and as long as you can manipulate nature energy you can be a sage? Hashirama seems to offer that possibility. Remember when I brought up the Rasengan and how it is a spin off of the Tailed-beast bomb? Well we have the Byakugou seal which, if I were to venture a good guess, is something that is sort of spawned from Hashirama's own techniques. Madara makes a comment about this so there is reason to believe this. We now have Sakura doing this ability AND summon slugs.

Could it be that the Byakugou seal can be used to make a Slug Sage mode? Given Hashirama's sage mode (which is not Slug as we know of it) and how there is a connection between these abilities, I would say that there could be a connection. Again, breaking this down piece by piece you can have Sakura create her own version of Slug sage mode. It is not impossible to do it given that the elements are there and if it is all about balance rather than quantity anyway, why not?

But again, this is all up to Kishimoto. He can make Sakura gain Slug sage mode and change the rules or even say "Well, for Sakura it is a special case." It can be that simple. You may not like it, but you can't rule it out and say that that is impossible. It is not like he hasn't done this before as I just addressed and he can bend the rules or even break them if he wants to. Hell, he could even retcon it if he wanted to just like how other mangka have retconned some of their stories.

If he wants to give Sakura Sage Mode, you can either accept or don't, but you can't change it. I want her to have Slug Sage Mode because I think it is a perfect jutsu for her. Showing her to surpass her teacher and go places that not even Tsunade can reach just like how Naruto did the same from Jiraiya.

 

Edited by James S Cassidy, 02 September 2013 - 12:15 AM.

[Inferno180]

Right now, its just not fully clear to me if it can or cannot come heres why:

 

Note this is not including the prerequisites that the other sage modes had like having an immense energy reserve or Kabuto who just incorperated abilities from others, namely Jugo's power to use Snake sage mode for gathering Natural energy.

 

For not:

-Sakura was made to be the normal girl, basically human and Chakra enhanced strength is just a form of being augmented towards "superhuman" but its not out of the human realm where she is better in natural abilities any person can do. Unlike the powers most others get, hers is practically enhanced physical prowess with medical techinques.

 

-Tsunade represents around the peak we can expect from Sakura, just Sakura will be stronger than Tsunade to a certain degree in the end. Tsunades strength of 100 is practically her high point. Sakura will be stronger than that that to a certain extent. Because her base seal is 100% used not wasted for personal looks, she will be able to use it better in theory for a higher release.

 

- The seal is connected to Katyusu. This in some extent can be the power itself. Because no power was ever applied, I feel under this condition the seal is not only a storage of power but also a mark of union and channeling with one like Katyusu, I sorta feel Katyusu is more of an entity rather than a being given how she can appear in different sizes and pieces even in other places.

 

- The powers of the seal and Katyusu are both highly integrated with healing powers.

 

- We never saw Tsunade with a slug sage mode, sure we didn't see Orochimaru with snake sage mode but it was said by Kabuto he was one and its no suprise the techniques he used could have been sage techniques as well.

 

- Both Hashirama and Mito leave a good amount of speculation, Hashirama's sage mode can be a unique one while its still unknown if Mito's seal was like Tsunades and Sakuras. Its also possible that due to another speculation, if Sakura's white strength seal differs from Tsunade's in terms of abilities, its also possible that the seal could be personalized so in theory, Hashirama, Mito, Sakura, and Tsunade may have made their own personalization to it to a degree. Tsunades strength of 100 when released was just like Hashirama's natural healing power, should this be based on the senju wood style alone or involved with the seal powers is unknown.

 

-Sakura already got her "power up" it would seem generally out of place to see another one this soon, especially without another deal of notion. We did get small notions of Sakura gaining power but it was hardly brought up. Sakura's greatest powers as of now are breaking great poritons of earth and healing many people even remotely with Katsuyu.

 

-storyline reasons, there is an issue of what exactly it should be used on. Aside from the Sasuke issues, should something related to Orochimaru come up, there is a possibility but thats in the far future to be speculated on.

 

reasons for slug sage mode:

 

- Its part of that trinity, the sannin, the frog, snake, and slug.

 

- Would be nice to have one female sage

 

- Like her white strength seal powerup, which was made to keep the sannin balance, it would show another aspect of her high points over Naruto and Sasuke.

 

- like in the against section, because the seal is involved with Katsuyu it can also lead to some other advancement.

 

- again from the against section, Hashirama's sage mode could be slug otherwise it could also be personalized in theory, so perhaps the strength of 100 for Tsunade is also able to be a sage mode in essence.

 

- Sakura has not released her seal, this goes both ways to an even higher power or possibly something new and unseen.

 

- Sakura in essence is continuing the Senju heritiage, not biologically but in spirit, like Naruto and how he followed aspects of Minato and Hashirama, Sakura herself was taught by Tsunade. The whole concept of Hashirama to Tsunade to Sakura also has a funny way to tie into Minato and Naruto and also further into team 7 and other master-student relations. Its a funny web or relations.

 

well that's all i got, but I think her power and getting something just like the strength of 100 is the best chance for a high point we can expect at this point.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

Right now, its just not fully clear to me if it can or cannot come heres why:

 

Note this is not including the prerequisites that the other sage modes had like having an immense energy reserve or Kabuto who just incorperated abilities from others, namely Jugo's power to use Snake sage mode for gathering Natural energy.

 

For not:

-Sakura was made to be the normal girl, basically human and Chakra enhanced strength is just a form of being augmented towards "superhuman" but its not out of the human realm where she is better in natural abilities any person can do. Unlike the powers most others get, hers is practically enhanced physical prowess with medical techinques.

 

-Tsunade represents around the peak we can expect from Sakura, just Sakura will be stronger than Tsunade to a certain degree in the end. Tsunades strength of 100 is practically her high point. Sakura will be stronger than that that to a certain extent. Because her base seal is 100% used not wasted for personal looks, she will be able to use it better in theory for a higher release.

 

- The seal is connected to Katyusu. This in some extent can be the power itself. Because no power was ever applied, I feel under this condition the seal is not only a storage of power but also a mark of union and channeling with one like Katyusu, I sorta feel Katyusu is more of an entity rather than a being given how she can appear in different sizes and pieces even in other places.

 

- The powers of the seal and Katyusu are both highly integrated with healing powers.

 

- We never saw Tsunade with a slug sage mode, sure we didn't see Orochimaru with snake sage mode but it was said by Kabuto he was one and its no suprise the techniques he used could have been sage techniques as well.

 

- Both Hashirama and Mito leave a good amount of speculation, Hashirama's sage mode can be a unique one while its still unknown if Mito's seal was like Tsunades and Sakuras. Its also possible that due to another speculation, if Sakura's white strength seal differs from Tsunade's in terms of abilities, its also possible that the seal could be personalized so in theory, Hashirama, Mito, Sakura, and Tsunade may have made their own personalization to it to a degree. Tsunades strength of 100 when released was just like Hashirama's natural healing power, should this be based on the senju wood style alone or involved with the seal powers is unknown.

 

-Sakura already got her "power up" it would seem generally out of place to see another one this soon, especially without another deal of notion. We did get small notions of Sakura gaining power but it was hardly brought up. Sakura's greatest powers as of now are breaking great poritons of earth and healing many people even remotely with Katsuyu.

 

-storyline reasons, there is an issue of what exactly it should be used on. Aside from the Sasuke issues, should something related to Orochimaru come up, there is a possibility but thats in the far future to be speculated on.

 

reasons for slug sage mode:

 

- Its part of that trinity, the sannin, the frog, snake, and slug.

 

- Would be nice to have one female sage

 

- Like her white strength seal powerup, which was made to keep the sannin balance, it would show another aspect of her high points over Naruto and Sasuke.

 

- like in the against section, because the seal is involved with Katsuyu it can also lead to some other advancement.

 

- again from the against section, Hashirama's sage mode could be slug otherwise it could also be personalized in theory, so perhaps the strength of 100 for Tsunade is also able to be a sage mode in essence.

 

- Sakura has not released her seal, this goes both ways to an even higher power or possibly something new and unseen.

 

- Sakura in essence is continuing the Senju heritiage, not biologically but in spirit, like Naruto and how he followed aspects of Minato and Hashirama, Sakura herself was taught by Tsunade. The whole concept of Hashirama to Tsunade to Sakura also has a funny way to tie into Minato and Naruto and also further into team 7 and other master-student relations. Its a funny web or relations.

 

well that's all i got, but I think her power and getting something just like the strength of 100 is the best chance for a high point we can expect at this point.

Would be cool but still what a sage mode would trigger on her development, with the seal she felt that she catched up with Naruto and Sasuke and boosted her confidence, in terms her development power-up wise is done, since another powerup wont give her another development, the rest of the k11 get their powerups but because they wanted to be more storng which is expressed on 633 or 634 if i remember well.

Sakura plot-wise would get another powerup if for some reason she feels useless again or feels that she's still weak, she seems comfortable and satisfied with her current power, even Hashirama said that her punch was strong than Tsunade's.

 

I feel more that her seal is connected more with Naruto's "we will die together" than Sage mode.

I mean if Naruto is near death or suffer an heavy injury she will able to heal him, thus saving his life which removes her "i only do small things for Naruto".

 

Her "i only do small things for Naruto" and " her moving on from Sasuke to Naruto" are the things that are left to finish up her development.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 02 September 2013 - 12:04 AM.

[Atheck]

Atheck, I want to tell you something that I know you are going to hate.

Don't worry, I won't hate it. But I will stand by my personal convictions and what has been maintained as a consistent system at least in the matter of this field of jutsu study. Because the direction in which events have steered provide that inkling. You're free to believe otherwise but since this is a debate I will try to address everything that you post with my full attention and commitment.
 

No, I am going to bring forth something to table that alot of you are going to hate.

That's good to hear. Although I doubt very many people would really be offended by your words. It's just a manga, albeit one which appears to stir quite a bit of friction amongst readers. 
 

Something that you will try to argue, but utterly fail at

Now that's a very bold assertion to make when you're not even aware of how the opposing side will address your post. I hope your opinion changes at the end of this discussion.
 

because in the end when you have a world where the rules can and has at times changed as it went.

Yes, the world is a product of Kishi's imagination and it is liable to changes that may shift the stipulations or conditions of a concept, but that doesn't mean inaccuracy or change should be encouraged if it hasn't taken root yet in the manga just to appease a sect of the fanbase.
 

You want to argue that if the Frog Sage mode uses "this" principle then the same logic should be applied to all the others.

I did refer to the stipulations of Frog Sage Mode, yes. But what many people, including yourself it seems, are not understanding is the generality of senjutsu's explanation. It wasn't denoting any particular brand of sage chakra or concepts exclusive to just frogs. The diagram and aforementioned explanation show how natural energy, without distinction, is drawn in and brought together with the forces of physical stamina and spiritual energy to create senjutsu. You're free to try and use the argument of translations being a valid point of questionability but the diagram supports what I'm saying.
 

Fair assessment, but you forget that Kishi could write something different and or change the rules to it if he so chooses.

Yes, he could contradict himself. He could choose to forsake already established plot or narrative devices to make this happen. But how probable is it and for what reason would it need to occur? There's no benefit to casting aside what you've already created just so you can an equip a power up with questionable worth to someone with equally sufficient abilities already. And I know you might begrudge the idea of this, but who is to say that this one handwaving won't create a domino effect in which any and all concepts are susceptible to changes as the author sees fit? That includes pairings, character relationships, and the story itself. Where you do you draw the line and how you can do it without resembling a hypocrite?

Even though you are technically correct, it's like I said. These changes are definitely usable, but it isn't something that should be encouraged if they can't be implemented fittingly within the boundaries of the established material. 
 

If he wants Sakura to have a sage mode, he can break his own rules or even say that for "this one" the rules are a little different.

I'm not hearing anything that's convincing or gives a legitimate reason for this power up besides the rehashed tangent of allowing it just for ****s and giggles. What is the purpose to it? How is it feasible for Sakura? Kishi may not be the greatest when it comes to writing but usually the events or developments that take place have a purpose.

Sakura's main duty is acting as the available healer for anyone who is injured. That has been her profession since P2 began and Kishi has been logical with reinforcing and maintain this fact. She is capable of fighting but it's a minor position for her. She usually plays the supplementary role. Assisting others when and wherever she is available. Her seal is the pinnacle of medical jutsu. It is the sign of someone who has mastered the art of restoration. That's coincident with her established role. Now that she has this ability, what more needs to be done for her? She's practically the best at what she was designated to and as a bonus she is now "stronger" than her teacher. Meaning Sakura is better prepared to defend herself whenever danger arises.

Sage Mode is a completely offensive technique in nature. There's not much premise to a connection with it and Sakura besides the slug affiliation. But as we are aware in Sasuke's situation, you don't need to any sage transformations to prove that you are the superior person or that you have overcome the limiters which inhibited previous generations. You can find ways to achieve success on your own and they don't even have to be related to fighting. That's what I believe Sakura's role will be. She'll become the most competent and efficient medical shinobi in the manga. 

 

Let me give an example of the Sharingan and how it's rules were changed. In the beginning, Itachi established that in order to get the Mangekyo Sharingan you had to kill your best friend. This was backed up by Itachi's best friend dying (and some established that Itachi killed him) and Sasuke attempting to kill Naruto. Later on, we realize that Sasuke doesn't need to kill his best friend as killing his brother would be just as effective.

So how could he have gained the Mangekyo Sharingan? So the rules were change to "Well, you don't really need to kill anyone, you just have to feel the lose of that said person and being really sad in order to gain it." We went from a very specific criteria to a very generalized one to the point that any emotional trauma could trigger a MS.

That's not a contradiction. Sasuke was betrayed by Itachi but he always valued his brother's life; be it with honest or ill-fated intentions. Before Naruto, Sasuke's closest companion was undoubtedly his brother. The death of his clan and the realisation that it was Itachi had spurred Sasuke to develop his Sharingan. Fast forward to the end of P1 and we see that Sasuke is given a choice to either forge his own path in life with his new "family" or abide by the tenets of darkness which Itachi prescribed to him. We know that the decision was the latter. Because there was greater value in retribution than happiness to him. At that time he despised Itachi but something to keep in mind is that hatred is also a very a strong emotion. One which needs an instigator of sorts to flame the beginnings of. Love is often that instigator.

Now fast forward again to Sasuke coming to terms that Itachi's ulterior motives were always for his younger brother's benefit and health. The love which he once held for that caring older brother was rekindled when hearing about the sacrifices Itachi made for him. At the same time he no doubt felt responsible for Itachi's death. It was because of that guilt and his newly reawakened love that caused the transformation.

What we understand of the Sharingan is that it is a product of emotional distress or something psychological that occurs in the mind. It's not the death itself, but the emotions felt afterwards that are important.
 

Sasuke didn't kill Itachi did he? Itachi died.

You're speaking in technicalities. It's the emotional reaction and feeling of responsibility for that death that induces the change.
 

Hell, we have canon that Sasuke already unlocked the original Sharingan, but seem to have "forgotten it." Same with Kakashi and his MS. Everything was so vague enough that as much as we want to say that it is weird, it still fit.

There have been documented cases of memory lapse under intense emotional circumstances. When you're at such an emotionally vulnerable age anything can upset you to the point of mental and physical collapse. Given the nature of Sasuke and Kakashi's reactions to those events, it's definitely possible that they may have wished to block it from their memories.
 

You'd probably argue that "Well, it is very simple logic...and blah blah blah," Well, yeah we know this now, but back then it was established that Sasuke had to kill Naruto to gain the Mangekyo Sharingan. So it was changed to something different than what was establishes before.

We know that the emotions are the key to a Sharingan's progression. It's unknown whether Sasuke's Sharingan would have actually matured at the time or not because his temperament was being corrupted by Orochimaru and the Curse Seal's influence. If he had fallen to the point where no emotion was felt for Naruto's death, not even on a subconscious level, then it may not have changed at all.
 

What his always the plan or was it changed to suit the story? We don't know. Maybe both. You can't tell me that you know what was well established and what wasn't and "always was the plan" because even Kishi himself says the story has changed in several areas.

Fluctuations exist and changes have needed to be made to accommodate certain Kishis wanted to put into the manga. But the central basis of his chakra developmental system, including the senjutsu process, has remained comparatively the same through all of the manga. Kishi would have no reason to change such an integral and basic system that has been one of the mainstays of his manga for just a single power up that will probably not see much usage because of the user's conventional duties..
 

We have Obito's sharingan ability. Now abilities that we have seen require the MS. Obito unlocked his ability with the MS, but ever notice that he never seems to change his eye into the MS to use his MS ability?

That's because up until #595 or so we never had even a closeup of his face. It was hidden behind that mask of his and the only noticeable features were obscured in shadows. Moreover using Kamui doesn't require much time or effort from the looks of it. It's almost instantaneous if Tobi reacting to Raikage's attack is any indication.
 

Why is that? Why does Kakashi have to use the MS to create those portals, but Obito can do it without using MS at all?

Because of the plot. We didn't even have an idea of what Tobi's face looked like because Kishi made it a mission of his to maintain the secrecy of this person's identity. It should go without saying that his Sharingan was intentionally kept a secret as well for narrative purposes.
 

Doesn't that seem a little weird. Given also that he can go blind from this ability, shouldn't he be blind by now or does his ever wall of sharingan keep him refreshed on eyes? Although he never see him replace his right eye at all with another Sharingan. So now we have Obito bending and break rules.

I proposed a theory sometime back about Hashirama's DNA lengthening the duration of his Mangekyou Sharingan's visibility. The Senju were bestowed with the physical energy and strength of Rikudou Sennin. Hashirama's DNA is especially potent for whatever potent for whatever. It's been shown to create life in the forms of his clones (Zetsu) and without that mass of DNA Tobi would have likely died in that flashback. We are aware that Hashirama's DNA is practically the embodiment of Yang Release which includes the ability to instill life into the lifeless.

Honestly, the DNA of the Senju is really beginning to look like the be-all and end-all for the Naruto universe's ailments. It's the proverbial cure for cancer.
 

So what now the bad guys can bend and break rules to jutsu, but the good guys can't?

They haven't broken any rules though. Your allegations of inconsistency can be explained  with information and evidence from the manga.
 

In part 1, many believed and still believe the Byakugan and the Sharingan have a connection to each other, but this has never been expressed upon nor elaborated on.
Even Kakashi said something about it and many proclaimed it to be something as part of a whole. Is that the same to this day? Some say it has changed and the Byakugon has nothing in common with the Sharingan. Is it true? We are not certain. It would have been left to a rumor and a theory or it could have started out one way and developed into another because Kishi thought the idea was stupid or didn't fit.

Again, I posted a theory (not my own however) of the Byakugan possibly having a connection to the Sage due to its symbolical representation of Taoist beliefs which have been a main emphasis of the Senju and Uchiha lifeline. And despite the probability of it being questionable at best it was a very enlightening read (for me at least).

The Byakugan and Sharingan connection was presented as a rumour so there was a large enough margin of doubt to argue that it may not be true. Kishi may have originally intended for the Hyuga to have a more prominent role in the manga but then decided to go another route. It went the way of Kabuto's red eyes ("old blood") and Naruto being an actual fox spirit in the form of a human.

 

The Rinnegan. At times it was established that the Uzumaki had the ability to unlock the Rinnegan,

Where was this mentioned? I only recall Konan making an argument that the Rinnegan was the treasured relic of Amegakure (probably because of its association with Akatsuki and the countless downpour that embodied the carnage plaguing the country) as she was fighting Tobi.
 

but now we have Madara have it and it was made that in some way his eyes were placed in Nagato so he could have the ability. What is the true evolution of the real Rinnegan? Again, we have theories, but we don't really have the real story. We know it involves senju DNA, but not sure how mixing the two creates the Rinnegan. Is Senju DNA enough to unlock it? Apparently not. What if Naruto unlocks the Rinnegan? Many people theorized it ever since the first reveal of said eyes.

We have strong indications that it's the result of Senju DNA being implanted into someone who wields the Sharingan. From a narrative and mythological standpoint it's actually logical because the Sage is a practitioner, if not the embodiment of Yin-Yang Release. Yin being the inheritance of the Uchiha and Yang for the Senju. It stands to reason that this union would create the Sage's power.

Naruto will probably not unlock it because he doesn't have the Sage's inherited doujusu. It's not like he requires it.

You should read this theory on Narutobase. It discusses how Tobi's ability to negate ninjutsu is inherently linked to the Uzumaki. Very interesting. http://narutobase.ne...ad.php?t=335032
 

You post the page about how the Sage mode requires balance with the chakra in the body. Well the answer is in the page itself. Sakura is excellent with chakra manipulation, something Naruto is not very good with. He is not bad, but he could be better. Sakura could use that to her advantage to use Sage mode in that way and learn it much quicker.

Control isn't as important as having the reserves and the body necessary to endure the training. Soon after the explanation was given Naruto alluded to the possibility of others, or "anyone" in his words, staying by their convictions to finish the training but Fukasaku disproved this when he revealed that you must have a very large chakra capacity to even attempt the training.

Edited by Atheck, 02 September 2013 - 04:08 AM.

[Atheck]

We have a universe where you can bring dead people back to life, you don't think this is also possible?

The scope of possibility of Kishi's world is vast but through his own workings he created subjective limiters to maintain some level of order and concise progression to this story. If that didn't exist then what is to prevent a creature like Tonton from becoming god? The limitations were prescribed to Sage Mode and given what we know of the senjutsu users, including Hashirama's, it doesn't look like he's going to recant everything that he's established just to appease your wishes.
 
 

If the main point is not how much chakra you have, but rather maintaining a balance, then why not have Sakura learn it?

How did you reach this conclusion? Although control is an issue, chakra supply and bodily endurance were also very significant factors in the senjutsu learning process. As for why Sakura should or should not learn it? I'll repost my above answer.
 
Sakura's main duty is acting as the available healer for anyone who is injured. That has been her profession since P2 began and Kishi has been logical with reinforcing and maintain this fact. She is capable of fighting but it's a minor position for her. She usually plays the supplementary role. Assisting others when and wherever she is available. Her seal is the pinnacle of medical jutsu. It is the sign of someone who has mastered the art of restoration. That's coincident with her established role. Now that she has this ability, what more needs to be done for her? She's practically the best at what she was designated to and as an additional contribution she is now "stronger" than her teacher. Meaning Sakura is now better prepared to defend herself whenever danger arises.

Sage Mode is a completely offensive technique in nature. There's not much premise to a connection with it and Sakura besides the slug affiliation. But as we are aware in Sasuke's situation, you don't need to any sage transformations to prove that you are the superior person or that you have overcome the limiters which inhibited previous generations. You can find ways to achieve success on your own and they don't even have to be related to fighting. That's what I believe Sakura's role will be. She'll become the most competent and efficient medical shinobi in the manga. Able to save the lives of numerous people at once even when their situations appear hopeless.
 
 

We also Naruto bypass some rules when it comes to sage mode in that he can not fuse himself with the frogs to gain nature energy and instead just clones.

Fusing with an animal isn't a rule of Sage Mode. It just eases the process of acquiring natural energy for the user. Half of all known senjutsu users don't even summon animals most of the time when they are in SM because there's no stipulation that says you need to have a frog on your shoulder or a snake fused with your abdomen.
 
 

We also have moments where Naruto has gained Sage mode while being mobile and or not meditating. He takes in energy in mere seconds and uses the ability. So we come to establish that as long as the motion is balanced, you can absorb nature chakra while on the move as long as the movement is a steady balanced pace.

The reason for needing to maintain a still position is because movement causes the natural energy around to be disrupted. As a senjutsu user you want to draw it in and establish harmony between it and your physical stamina as well as spiritual energy. But when you perfect the ability you're able to enter the state without less restriction to your body, as you said. Asssuming a meditative pose is still the most beneficial method though because it allows you to concentrate better.

By the way, could you please provide some examples of Naruto entering Sage Mode as he's moving? If you decide to use #482 as evidence then you need to remember that a period of time was left unaccounted for when Naruto left a clone of his behind and when he was seen running through the forest. Who is to say that he didn't meditate for a few moments in the ceiling of the hotel that he escaped through?
 
 
 

As I already established just because some rules were already set does not mean they can't be changed or altered to suit a plot point better. Like all the times the Sharigan has been through.

I've addressed almost all of your points and many of them were just unsubstantiated claims or presumable misinterpretations.
 
 

We also Hashirama's sage mode which has two things different from the other sage modes in that A. it has no summon affliation

There isn't a confirmation of this. In fact, we've received next to no information about his Sage Mode aside from the fact that he develops markings similar in design and placement to the Yin Seal and Katsuyu.
 
 

B. seems to be more about wood than animal.

A translator already disproved this some time ago. It's not Mokuton Senpou, it's Senpou Mokuton. Or in other words, he was saying the name of a senjutsu technique of the Mokuton element.
 
 

Does this mean that there are more than one kind of Sage mode and as long as you can manipulate nature energy you can be a sage?

Possible given what we know of Juugo's clan who were said to be conduits of natural energy despite having no relation to any animals. But the forms they take with CS2 kind of resemble animals.
 
 

Hashirama seems to offer than possibility. Remember when I brought up the Rasengan and how it is a spin off of the Tailed-beast bomb. Well we have the Byakugou seal with if I were to venture a guess is something that is sort of spawned from Hashirama's own techniques.

 
A technique that Mito coincidentally possessed when she was young. Given the nature of the seal and its relations to a clan of fuinjutsu practioners, I would argue that the seal originated from their own workings and not Hashirama's. The Byakugou does necessitate qualities associated with the Uzumaki like a strong quantity of chakra for the seal and amazing longevity to offset the repercussions of releasing the seal. 
 
 
 

Madara makes a comment about this so there is reason to believe this. We now have Sakura doing this ability AND summon slugs.

 
Not really important. It's becoming more and more apparent that Sakura's seal is the same as Tsunade's. Which is likely somehow related to Mito who is a member of the Uzumaki Clan. But like I explained earlier, she doesn't need Slug Sage Mode to prove her superiority.  
 
 

Could it be that the Byakugou seal can be used to make a Slug Sage mode?

If it does, then there would have been reference to Sage mode through the word "senpou" or natural energy being gathered. What really blemishes the validity of this theory is Dan's moment with Tsunade where he resupplied her seal with his chakra. Unless he's an unconfirmed practitioner of the sage arts who was gathering natural energy at the time then it was just regular chakra. When you release a seal, you're only redistributing the chakra to your network for usage. There's no alternate purpose for it being released like it somehow gathers natural energy when released. 
 
 

Given Hashirama's sage mode (which is not Slug as we know of it)

Again, you're only making presumptions when there's literally no information to describe what school of Sage Mode Hashirama has.
 
 

and how there is a connection between these abilities, I would say that there could be a connection.

There is undoubtedly some connection between the Yin Seal and Hashirama's Sage Mode. Whether it's through an as of yet unspecified link to the slugs or the seal being an offshoot of Sage Mode like the Curse Seal is unknown. If I were betting money though, I would argue for the latter possibility being more likely.
 
 

Again, breaking this down piece by piece you can have Sakura create her own version of Slug sage mode. It is not impossible to do it given that the elements are there and if it is all about balance rather than quantity anyway, why not?

No, it's about both. You need to be able to properly manipulate and control the three building blocks that make senjutsu but at the same time without a naturally large chakra capacity you can't even attempt the training.

I don't understand what the appeal is to Sakura developing Sage Mode when it's a technique that may not even serve much purpose to her since she rarely fights. The Byakugou jutsu would grant her pseudo-immortality that could allow her to survive in battle, is that not a sufficient or consistent enough power up for people like yourself?
 
 

But again, this is all up to Kishimoto. He can make Sakura gain Slug sage mode and change the rules or even say "Well, for Sakura it is a special case."

If that happens, I really want him to explain how he managed to contrive that from the air because as of now there's nothing linking the two together besides slugs and the idle hope of proponents.
 
 

It can be that simple. You may not like it, but you can't rule it out and say that that is impossible.

It's not impossible (albeit the lack of substantiable physical qualities would lean towards towards the contrary), but just because you argue that Kishi can make it occur does not make it likely, necessary, or reasonable. You can cling to that hope if you want, but some of us believe that she has already attained, besides the cloak which is Sage Mode for all intents and purposes, a sufficient amount of power ups for the time being. 
 
 

It is not like he hasn't dne this before as I just addressed and he can bend the rules or even break them if he wants to. Hell, he could even retcon it if he wanted to just like how other mangka have retconned some of their stories.

 
It's for this reason that I am so grateful that he is in charge of writing the story and not someone who would drop all of what they have already wrote as a quick fix to wanting to provide a needless power up to a character. Kishi has his imperfections, but he makes an effort to preserve most of the founding principals of his manga. 
 
 

If he wants to give Sakura Sage Mode, you can either accept or don't, but you can't change it.

I hope you'll do the same when/if it's shown that no such connection ever existed and that Sakura's seal is just Byakugou jutsu.
 

I want her to have Slug Sage Mode because I think it is a perfect jutsu for her.

Not really. The Byakugou jutsu ensures her survival which is the vital part of a medical shinobi's duties on the battlefield. It enables her to fight but she can also endure attacks that would otherwise kill a person.
 

Showing her to surpass her teacher and go places that not even Tsunade can reach just like how Naruto did the same from Jiraiya.

Naruto had the benefit of a chakra monster feeding him stamina as a child and increasing his stats to levels that a scarce few have obtained. Sakura will surpass Tsunade, but it may not be on the same level as Naruto's supremacy over Jiraiya. But I digress.

~~~~~~
To Inferno: I'm surprised you didn't mention Shima in your post. She uses senjutsu techniques.
 

If you see any errors in my responce then I apologize. 

Edited by Atheck, 02 September 2013 - 04:07 AM.

[rocci]

The possibility for sakura to gain ssm is high, but the problem is when will she gain it? In this war arc, or in the next arc.
I believe she will use it in the next arc, to fight either juugo or orochimaru (with kakashi assist).

[Chatte]

You know what, I was re-reading the whole Sage training thing and I find it not impossible for Sakura to get it. If I'll have time, I'll try to make a full-detailed post with it.

[Don-kun]

It seems that people continue to talk about the same topic regarding Sakura SSM form, by the way how is everyone?

[rocci]

@don kun
Fine I think, so far so good, btw where are you? Are you busy or something?

[megi]

I'm one who thinks that it is...somewhat likely for Sakura to obtain SSM! Although I'm going to say that I doubt she will get it unless it is shown that Sasuke has or can also achieve a SM, OR if Hashi's SM is SSM.

She will probably use Byakugou jutsu which will be "stronger" than Tsuna's of course, but for Sakura to have stronger upgrades isn't far fetched at all. I mean why not? i don't really see byakugou jutsu as a "power-up" because its already clear its in her realm of power now. I have already explained the more-than-likely possibility that Sakura's and Tsuna's seals are the same, but I will not say they are until there is clear confirmation in the story. Maybe the byakugou seal has a property that can be used to help her achieve SSM! Speculation of course, nothing like fact^^. Yes yes I know about the logic and stuff about senjutsu and chakra and training and Sakura not having the requirements from Atheck's (who has worked real hard!) post and picture, but I still got that "feeling" that it can still work out after it all. And as for explaining and speculating about Sakura's seal and its uses, purpose, power, what it is, etc, I'm really tired of the debate as it keeps going around in circles, so I will wait for development on that aspect ( the debate on the whole topic of what her seal is).

If Hashirama's SM is not SSM, then certainly i believe Sakura is the most likely candidate to showcase it. Is there a better candidate? Personally I don't think Hashirama's is SSM, but if it is and he shows it again, I don't think Sakura will have/learn it.

[Chatte]

I'm one who thinks that it is...somewhat likely for Sakura to obtain SSM! Although I'm going to say that I doubt she will get it unless it is shown that Sasuke has or can also achieve a SM, OR if Hashi's SM is SSM.

She will probably use Byakugou jutsu which will be "stronger" than Tsuna's of course, but for Sakura to have stronger upgrades isn't far fetched at all. I mean why not? i don't really see byakugou jutsu as a "power-up" because its already clear its in her realm of power now. I have already explained the more-than-likely possibility that Sakura's and Tsuna's seals are the same, but I will not say they are until there is clear confirmation in the story. Maybe the byakugou seal has a property that can be used to help her achieve SSM! Speculation of course, nothing like fact^^. Yes yes I know about the logic and stuff about senjutsu and chakra and training and Sakura not having the requirements from Atheck's (who has worked real hard!) post and picture, but I still got that "feeling" that it can still work out after it all. And as for explaining and speculating about Sakura's seal and its uses, purpose, power, what it is, etc, I'm really tired of the debate as it keeps going around in circles, so I will wait for development on that aspect ( the debate on the whole topic of what her seal is).

If Hashirama's SM is not SSM, then certainly i believe Sakura is the most likely candidate to showcase it. Is there a better candidate? Personally I don't think Hashirama's is SSM, but if it is and he shows it again, I don't think Sakura will have/learn it.

You know, Megi... I was thinking. Today I made an updated theory about the initial one with Hashirama foreshadowing Sakura development. And from the info you got me, this struck me...

What if indeed Hashi's SM is Slug Sage Mode, but since we have the female version of Senju Kannon, what if Sakura will get it too and she'll be the female version? Like the whole Kannon thing?

[megi]

You know, Megi... I was thinking. Today I made an updated theory about the initial one with Hashirama foreshadowing Sakura development. And from the info you got me, this struck me...

What if indeed Hashi's SM is Slug Sage Mode, but since we have the female version of Senju Kannon, what if Sakura will get it too and she'll be the female version? Like the whole Kannon thing?

 

Well, Kannon is already "female". Senju Kannon is merely a form of Kannon. She is like a hermaphrodite, but featured primarily as a female. It is very similar to Katsuyu, who has a feminine voice and is mostly like a female, but all slugs themselves are hermaphrodites. Also I think it is said that you can learn senjutsu in the three areas (w/ frogs, snakes, slugs), so it can be argued that Hashi's SM is indeed SSM.

 

As for the true female manifestation of Kannon, Tara, well, I find it hard to see any connection with anything really ^^, she isn't really big in Japan, but unlike places like China who has two versions of Tara (white and green), in Japan their colors and persona are combined into one Tara, and is seen as a light green color, the color of wisdom.