Bail o' Lies

With Naruto I find it easier to understand what Kishimoto is doing with the story if you keep it simple and just assume he is answering a question his editor had, but never going farther then needed to answer the question.

Which is very irritating in the long haul since villains CAN just be villains without needing to be sympathetic. It's why I like Thanos in the comics over how he was shown in the MCU-- he just was bat crazy and evil, wanting to impress Death that he was willing to wipe out half of life to do it as well as other actions over the years.

Villains need to have a point in the story or they are just filler. If all the antagonist are all victims of the ninja system, then that means Naruto's true foe is the system and as the protagonist he needs to fix it so it stops creating the foes he faces. but, the story doesn't focus on that because kishimoto is too obsessed with justifying why the chase after Sasuke has to take ten years.

And if that's not bad enough, they didn't even try to hide the fact that things just repeat themselves in the very first chapter only *GASP!* the characters have been swapped! Now the "Sasuke" wants to change the system while the "Naruto" wants to defend it!

So...what? Are we NOW supposed to root for Boruto's dad's spawn and DEFEND the very same system they spent the entire last half of Shippuden blaming for the entire world's and every individuals' problems?

Further shows they have no idea what they want to do except pray that lightning strikes twice hence all the repeating of the same types of plot points as "Naruto" so far in "Boruto", right down to the whole "system" argument.

Not quite. Sasuike wanted revolution to tear down the system. While Naruto, at best, wanted to reform it; granted it would help if kishimoto ever focused on that. Nail wants anarchy while Bolt is an enforcer of the status quo.

In theory, Naruto fixed the system...we know he didn't. Or Bolt is acting as Salad's enforcer who is in theory is continuing Naruto's work.

You're right about them hoping it would work if they just copied Naruto proving they don't know how sequels are suppose to work.

That's a whole lotta post just to say "Serial Escalation."

And going from past experience from previous reply chains we have had; you would have complained just as much if I had just said that.

I am gonna quote the youtuber Gigguk for this one
"I'm sure we all remember the days when Naruto had tactical, down-to-earth fights back before Amadara started dropping the odd meteors over an army of kittening ninjas. Or, hell, before the universe-threatening fights, the Dragon Ball manga started off with general martial arts tournaments. You end up looking at the stark contrast between earlier and later fights to think "Wow, how the hell did we get here?"

All Shonen have this issue. How can we take a concept and keep cranking it up to 11? This is especially true because since it is a tough market to keep the fans interested, their concept is to keep escalation regardless of how much sense it makes. Because things get outrageous, you have to wonder where are the limits? You can make anything sound horrifying enough if you keep saying "the universe is in trouble." For Dragonball, everyone uses these terms to cheapen a matter of dire situations and soon the previous matters seem trivial. We went from moon busting, to planet busting, to star busting, to galaxy busting, and now universe busting. What's next? After being universe busters, how can you keep reshowing threats.

Now, many series do this including One-Punch Man and JoJo Bizarre Adventure, but what makes them different I feel is they throw in an element that Dragonball doesn't have. (Naruto has it, but they ended up throwing it all away anyway.) Existentialism and what I call practical problem strategy. Goku never "thinks." It is all about "how can I make my number bigger?" It has been since Dragonball like you said to name a specific of Korrin and the water jug. The water didn't do anything, it was him just getting fast enough to grab it. In JoJo's, they actually come up with plans to shorten the power gap and even trick opponents into losing. It is not just power-up after power-up after power-up. 

One Punch Man I think really plays the reverse. He already has all the power, but is he really using it well and is he truly a hero? Chapter 165-166 really gaves us a reality check for Saitama. Dragonball is cheap with this escalation crap. It looks cool, but it is so bad when you think about it. Anyone with half a brain can outwit Goku and considering that he is no stronger than a human if he is blindsided, it kind of makes Goku a glass cannon.

This concept of "if at first you don't succeed, just make the gun bigger" is what sucks about it. You're basically reducing down from a universe of infinite possibilities to a threat no bigger than a few blocks.

Ah, this again as well. Like always, when someone answers a question and you can't win in a response on topic. You go off topic hoping to convince at least yourself that you've won because they didn't address that in their post as well.

But to keep it short: ...Yes, and?

Incase that also didn't make you happy. Here we go.

I was complaining about how absurd it is that the villains are so strong that they could defeat the entire old cast in a single blow. As well as that, the only reason the two main characters can even stand up to them; is the karma seal made them strong enough to equal the villains and surpass the old cast with no real effort in there part.

You bring up Dragonball Super to clearly complain again about Super, again.

If you were complaining about all of Dragonball you would be right up to a point. As I said last page, that it is mitigated somewhat in Dragonball by the fact the cast does training to match them instead of just getting a magic seal that makes them that strong. Thinking about it, I felt Super was different as Goku had hit as close to his cap the story will allow him to have in Ultra Instinct and he is merely fighting people that have hit a similar level to him. Or use power up to match him.

Now for the new topic of fighting tactically lets keep it to Boruto and Dragonball manga.

Boruto the only people that fight smart are the ones Ikemoto made. Nail and the villains. Go through my summaries I am constantly surprised when someone does anything smart, because most of the cast is on autopilot. Of course, eventually it was clear that Ikemoto doesn't care in putting much effort into the characters he inherited and only want to write his own. Despite it being a sequel where most of the cast was made by his old boss Kishimoto. Which is why when Shikamaru did something other than distrust Nail (or kiss Naruto's ass) I knew it would fail because only Ikemoto's characters are allowed to succeed.  

Dragonball off the top of my head without looking anything up. Yamacha had Puar turn into scissor to cut off Goku's tail to revert him out of his great ape form. Master Roshi destroyed the moon to revert Goku. Pouring blood on a invisible man to make him visible, and using a cross to defeat a vampire. Most of the time Krillin fights. The evil containment wave against Piccolo. Goku sacrificing himself to kill Raditz. Teaming up against Nappa and Vegeta. Using the spirit bomb on Vegeta. Trying to keep the dragonball away from Freeza. That trick with the energy disks that ended up cutting Freeza in half. Bulma suggest using the Dragonball to locate Doctor Gero, but is shot down because they wanted to fight the androids. Trying to kill the android before Cell could absorb them both by fighting them as well as rebuilding their denotator, trying to use a plane to hunt him so he could not sense them coming, the hyperbolic time chamber. Instant transmission Kamehameha on Cell. Using fusion, trying to seal Buu in the hyperbolic time chamber, and the spirit bomb.

Super. Waiting till Freeza's stamina ran out. Figuring out Hit's time power. The Goku Black Mystery, using the evil containment wave, using fusion, and summoning Zeno. Knocking Jiren out of the ring. Using Freeza as Broly's punching bag while they try fusing. Using the Grand Supreme Kai within Buu to fight Moro, using the androids to fight Moro, Vegeta's energy dividing power he got from training with the Yardrats, and the angel trainee breaking Moro's gems. Now the current fight, Goku teleporting around with Gas chasing him so he can teleport back to buy time for everyone to heal up for the next round.

Of course these rarely work and it comes down to a fight, which is what the audience is there for.

But again. Yes, and Dragonball is what It is both Z which you like and Super that you hate. I much rather read/watch that than Boruto where the author clearly doesn't care about half the cast. Hell at least Super uses the old cast and tries to give them some fights.

P.S. By the way, Bail, it is time you tone down the sarcastic cocky-ness, please. You're not the only one who watches other anime than Naruto and Dragonball. Hell, I was watching anime even before Dragonball made the scene in America. Speed Racer, Gigantor, and many more. If you know me well enough all my jokes are a reference to previous posts I used to say. 

...Sarcastic cocky-ness? So, that's how I sound to you all the time? Well, sorry to come off like that. In these summary topics as I feel that I should answer all comments as honestly in order to best answer any question people have in these chapter and my summary of them. I feel it is best to give as much necessary information as possible so that one understand where I am coming from in my opinion and they can agree and disagree from there. Correct me if needed. Hopefully, it helps and they might give their opinion so it can form a dialogue. Granted as long as they aren't asking the same question over and over. That gets tiring after awhile. Sorry, that wasn't clear to you. My apologies.

This is an anime fansite which focuses on Naruto discussion, yes. But there is also a section to talk about other anime, games, and so on. I assume everyone who enters this site has watch some anime particularly shounen, but I assume everyone else has a similar assumption. I'm not sure why you consider that some sort of revelation? To be honest, I feel that if there is something people on this site should watch/read more of its female-targeted romantics stories like Shoujo manga. As it would help them understand why people like nH and SS much easier...well at least SS. For nH, they should listen to you rant about women some more like you did a few weeks ago.

As for how long you were watching anime as some sort of measurement. I assume no matter what I say I will be wrong, because you can never be. If I said I grew up watching the original Astroboy and Dororo I will still be just as wrong as if I only watch the first Dragonball or Naruto episode seconds before joining this site and never watch another anime.

Lol well I wouldnt mind seeing Pan kicking Bolt ass who is far cutter then any Naruto kid.

I have heard mainly from DB Channels like MasakoX that Toriyama wants to take DB back to its roots from the OG Dragon Ball which was mainly a gag Manga but I could be wrong as the new film had little Goku and Vegeta in it.

From what I recall it was he felt Goku had drift too far from what he felt he was suppose to be. I'm going to keep pointing to James because he the one who complained the most about the Goku changes since ultra isn't around that much anymore. Goku is seen as a stoic always serious hero or at least that how people like James see him as. Toriyama's original idea for Goku was "he is not evil but he is selfish, he cares more about having a good fight than saving people." Its similar to Luffy he is selfish just wanting to enjoy life but he will help people who are nice to him. Returning Goku to that made people think he had become a kitten.

 

I'm really curious to seeing the new Dragon Ball Super movie since there seems to be a heavy focus on Gohan and Piccalo. Being somebody who grew up watching the original Dragon Ball anime before I saw Dragon Ball Z that is honestly a big deal for me to see Piccalo  get some shine again.

 

When it comes to Pan, I do feel like she's been a severely underrated character with the entire Dragon Ball series.  Not say she's one of the best of the best characters, but Super Hero could definitely improve on certain aspects with her character, and I am looking forward to seeing what  role she plays in the movie. 

Pan has a big role to play from what I hear, as I won't ruin anything, but from a few clips, she is a skilled fighter since she has trained with Piccolo, and they are still close like how they are in Super.

 

However, Chi, we have no idea what they are going to do with Pan or how big a part she will play in the film, but that's just the film here. GT didn't treat Pan the best and I feel that many writers know this, and they might try and fix her. Make her this badass fighter but still likes to have fun when she fights.

Again, I heard hearsay recently that Dragonball Super didn't catch on with the youth enough because they prefer more team oriented stuff like MHA. I imagine the movie came from the desire to include Gohan and Piccolo into the story but have to deal with the awkward fact anyone they could face could be beaten by Goku or Vegeta in a single blow. Making them not much of a threat. So those two have to be off training. Then have a foe they could grow strong against to try making them catch up to those two.

I heard Videl took over her father's dojo so that could be them trying to address complaints of her becoming a simple housewife.

The problem with GT Pan is she was a Shounen 90's heroine without the mitigating factors that made them tolerable. She could fight like some 90's heroines but the real fights were of the male characters. Which means she had to sit out the real battles once they got serious, if she didn't she'd lose, and became a damsel for Goku to save. She also had a very....outgoing personality that a lot of shounen heroine did in the nineties often being Tsuderes, and they were often the love interest to the main character; allowing them to have tender romantic moments with the hero softening their more... rough nature.  Which Pan could not be nor do, since, she was Goku's granddaughter. So, she came off as an obnoxious useless brat. Changes in Shounen over the last 30 years allow Pan to fight more and she young enough that she doesn't come off as a brat.

I could say the same for Dragonball Super. HAH!!!

...I'm gonna assume that is another attempt of a poor joke, but for the sake of dealing with that point I'm gonna take it seriously.

For start, you could say that about all of Dragonball, and in a way I already did in the last page. Since, I already mentioned Dragonball power scale and how the next enemy is often so strong they could defeat the previous enemy in a single blow. That has literally been in Dragonball since at least the red ribbon army arc where Tao killed General Blue with his Tongue. The answer Dragonball came up for that was for the characters to constantly be training and getting new power ups for fight these stronger opponents.

Goku was strong by default but lack real training. So, he could defeat random bandits and monsters in the first arc but had problems against skilled martial artists. So, he went to Master Roshi for training. Roshi then fought him as Jackie Chun in the tournament to teach him a lesson of, "there will always be someone stronger than you and you can't sit on your laurels." Goku never met a serious foe that could kill him till Tao; who nearly killed him. To defeat him, he trained with Korin. Then in the next arc, he faced Demon King Piccolo, needed a power up from the sacred water, and afterwards went to Kami for more training. This training and the resulting battle against Piccolo Jr officially made Goku the strongest warrior on Earth. Which led new foes in the next arc having to come from SPACE. After sacrificing himself to defeat his evil brother Raditz, he went to train with King Kai, a god higher on the food chain than Kami, to defeat his brother's stronger Boss Vegeta. Then to face against Vegeta's Boss Freeza he needed to unlock the from his race's ancient legendary transformation of Super Saiyan. Making his the strongest mortal in the universe. Next arc, had androids designed to kill Goku the biggest threat being Cell a bio-android made from the cells of Goku and anyone he has fought since the Red Ribbon Army Arc. To beat Cell, his son had to Unlock Super Saiyan 2. Then the next arc an ancient evil the killed the Gods Majin Buu. Goku tried to deal with this early by gaining Super Saiyan 3 over the time skip and learning Fusion but their drawbacks lead to them having to get creative to defeat Buu.

So, by the end of the Dragonball manga storyline Goku is the strongest mortal in the Universe surpassing even the gods.

Start of Super. Turns out Goku surpassed all the Kai, but there is a God stronger than him, Beerus, the God of Destruction, and he points out in his fight with Goku his attendant/trainer Whis is stronger than even him. Actually, Super is different than Dragonball in this, besides getting the Super Saiyan God form from a ritual and Super Saiyan Blue from training; Goku has been training to master one ability, Ultra Instinct, the entire storyline. The foes have been either beings from another universe that are those universes strongest fighters or warriors from universe 7 that got power up through some means.

Different Universes:

Zamasu a gifted prodigy that is considered the strongest kai of any universe. Needed to both steal Goku's body and get immortality to be a threat. 

Hit a hitman with time powers. Strongest mortal of his universe.

Jiren a mortal that is stronger than his God of Destruction. Strongest mortal of his Universe.

Same Universe:

Freeza a prodigy that was so strong that he was naturally the strongest in the universe without a day of training. Trains to match Goku. Gets a transformation to counter super saiyan.

Moro an ancient planet eating sorcerer that powers were sealed away by the Grand Supreme Kai. Relies on cunning and energy absorption both things Goku and Vegeta are not that used to from their opponents.

Broly a mutant Saiyan with unnaturally high power levels. Gets stronger through fighting just like Goku and Vegeta.

Granola and Gas both wished to become the strongest in the Universe on the dragonballs. They are far stronger that Goku and Vegeta but they have more battle experience and training so it is a difficult but winnable match.

To make it short Dragonball has always had the issues of finding new threats for Goku to beat once he became, 'the strongest.'  If anything, Super has finally show the pinnacle and put a cap on how strong Goku will grow and therefor how strong his opponents can get. Toriyama made it clear there will be no Super Saiyan Blue 2. If we were following the power creep of Dragonball Z we would be at least at Super Saiyan 10 by this point.

As for Boruto, there was no need for Bolt and Nail nor their foes to be this strong. They could have scaled it back and it would have been fine, and people would not find it absurd.

Since unlike Dragonball where Goku and Vegeta are constantly training adults. Bolt and Nail just got their powers from the karma seal and are like thirteen.

I'll just say this, the power creep in this series is absurd and pointless. The cast and the villains do not need to be this strong on the outset. Ikemoto is trying to make his character and story impressive by making them stronger than Naruto but it doesn't come off as believable and the way he goes about it is uninteresting. The fact that the two main character are so strong due to Karma Seals instead of something like training make them feel contrived and unearned.

For example the fig... spat this chapter are suppose to be between two people that completely surpass anyone in Naruto in strength, but not for one image in this chapter or any other have they ever come off as that strong. The main cast instead just looks incompetent when they fight them. Not help that Naruto and Sasuke were entirely dependent on one power (a rinnegan eye, and kurama) to be the world's two strongest ninja and became absolute joke once they lost them; at least Naruto has.

They could have easily made Punk Haku-Level in term of strength and it would have been more believable.