72 replies to this topic

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

I've been talking with Bryon about this, and after seeing a number of posts/blogs on the topic, I've been wondering if people may feel that Konoha and/or Tobirama Senju are getting demonized far more than they deserve. That's not to say they're saints that are without blame or anything, but it feels like people are putting the complete blame on one or both of them while, with the Uchiha Clan, seeming to just let them off without any responsibility.

For Tobirama, it's like people see his views towards the Uchiha as one step short of how Hitler was with the Jews and "undesirables". I've even seen some people go so far as to say Edo Tobirama was lying to Sasuke just to save face when they were talking even though, when I look at his character and attitude, he certainly doesn't come off as the type to lie about such things (and there wouldn't be a point in lying at that time anyway), but rather seems quite blunt and honest with his thoughts and feelings, and yet those same people try to justify Sasuke's revolution and the Uchiha Clan's actions and whatnot by copy/pasting stuff from Obito's story that he told to Sasuke (usually the part telling Sasuke about the Police Force solely being made to spy on the clan), seeming to unquestionably accept Obito's story as the gospel truth when he had far more reason to lie, and twist and omit facts in order to convincingly sway Sasuke towards his side. People even copy/pasting Madara trying to tell Hashirama what would happen if/when Tobirama would be the next Hokage, the destruction of the Uchiha Clan, as more "proof" that Tobirama was ultimately responsible for the Uchiha's own actions that lead to their destruction by Itachi's hand, while seeming to completely ignore the fact that Tobirama never tried to do any such thing while Hokage.

Could the police force have been used to spy on the Uchiha Clan? Possibly, but the only thing we have to back that claim is the word of "the coolest guy" Obito who, again, had every reason to lie, twist, and omit facts, against the word of Tobirama, who really had nothing to gain by lying about it at that point.

In the end, the question I would ask, that people can't seem to answer, is that if Tobirama really sought the destruction of the Uchiha Clan so badly as Madara and chunks of the fandom claim he did, then why didn't he just do it when he became Hokage after Hashirama died? Why not just snuff them out and create a cover story like what happened after Itachi chose to do it to protect the village decades later? Or whittle them down little by little in "accidents" while they were on missions or something? If anything, suspiciously, the Uchiha Clan continued to flourish during and after Tobirama's rule while. over time, it was the Senju Clan that seemed to mysteriously die out until there were but a few members left.

 

And Konoha - people seem to talk like they're the only village who did dark/dirty things under the system. IMO, it's really just easier to pin (more) blame on them because we got a lot more background and information on their actions compared to other villages (since that's where the MCs come from, and it doesn't help that most of the antagonists were either from there or were somehow affected directly by Konoha), but based on what little information we got on the other major villages, they all did just as bad, if not worse things than Konoha. As mentioned by others, we also can't forget that quite a bit of things regarding the system were purposely manipulated by the likes of Black Zetsu, Madara, Obito, Nagato, etc. and not just ones like Danzo, Orochimaru, and so on.

While the system does hold some blame, I feel it's also unfair to put all the blame on it, as if somehow nobody would've done the (bad) things they did if the system wasn't the way it was and/or hoping that it somehow negates responsibility for actions made by people. I see much talk as if the Uchiha Clan were completely innocent victims of everything due to the system, as if that somehow makes it okay that they still plotted a coup that, if successful, would have most likely resulted in Konoha's destruction. Such reasoning doesn't sound much different than the "I was simply following orders" defense that Nazi war criminals used at Nuremberg, which was seen as no excuse nor did it absolve them of responsibility, even if they didn't know what was going on with the higher-ups behind the scenes.

Basically, I feel that every side bears responsibility; the system, Tobirama, all the villages, the Uchiha Clan, etc. Naruto and Sasuke had the right idea in changing the system, but now neither one is even trying to make an attempt, just becoming new cogs in that very system.

What are your thoughts?

[rocci]

Kishi try to make a gray morality story without the capability to do that.
Either that or he just half ass when do it.

[BlackBird19]

One of kishi's biggest problems was trying to write a story of forgiveness after at least half of it was already written about a whole other topic. It went from being a story about a hero to the redemption story of the rival. So it became poorly executed and came off as more of a story of excuses for his favorite character and his favorite clan. So he wound up just writing about forgiveness without consequences. Whether he meant to or not.

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

One of kishi's biggest problems was trying to write a story of forgiveness after at least half of it was already written about a whole other topic. It went from being a story about a hero to the redemption story of the rival. So it became poorly executed and came off as more of a story of excuses for his favorite character and his favorite clan. So he wound up just writing about forgiveness without consequences. Whether he meant to or not.

Yeah, as I keep saying, Sasuke getting off without any consequences for his actions is one my biggest peeves about the ending. It's one of the worst messages that can be sent in that as long as you come from a "special" and revered family/bloodline, are handsome, and presumably rich (I'm sure the Uchiha Clan had a lot of money, both in their compound and in accounts), you can get away with pretty much anything (like a bunch of politicians and whatnot in real life, or like that BS "affluenza" kid who got drunk and ran down several people, killing and wounding some, and all he gets is like ten years of probation because he was "too rich to appreciate the consequences").

And he still is essentially trying to escape responsibility with staying away for so long and now having left again. I mean, he claimed he had to "atone" with all this traveling and seeing "the shinobi world for himself" (even though that would be pointless because he and/or Naruto were supposed to be changing it), yet Kishi can't seemed to be arsed with giving any details (like did he go to Kumo and beg Ay and Bee for forgiveness? Did he go to the Land of Iron and beg for forgiveness?), so all we can assume is that he really isn't doing anything regarding either of those reasons, especially now with the whole "top secret mission" involving a "threat worse than Kaguya" suddenly supplanting it all.

[Lady Lys]

Unpopular as my opinion might be I think that the only plausible, real, good Hokage was, in fact, Tobirama.

 

But of course people are fan of the Uchiha, because people find them aesthetically pleasing and hot and, as angst is the new black, they all melt into goo at the barest mention of the clan's name. They expect shinobi, who are mercenaries, spies and killers, to be all about puppies and daisies, while the truth is that a shinobi is fundamentally a murderer. If we are frank, in a 'just' system they wouldn't even exist, there would be no Hokage and Konoha would be a city under the control of the Daimyo like many others.

 

Tobirama was a war leader - and an intelligent one - so I can't understand why people expect him to go around waxing poetry about justice and being good and fluffy with the Uchiha, who up until few years before were his bitterest enemies. He was wary, exactly as any other rational human being would have been.

 

But nope, he's a big bad monster while Uchiha Obito, profession mass murderer, is 'the coolest guy'. I never really ruminated over it, but this is probably the finest form of hypocrisy in the whole manga (and Naruto is probably the most hypocrite of them all. Hey, yo, Orochimaru was still around doing human experimentation in Gaiden, and Naruto didn't even bat an eyelash when he faced him. Such a paragon of a good leader we have here.)

 

Konoha is a 'war' village, a shinobi village. Would there be seedy, shady, nasty, horrible things that go on in there? Things that violate the barest human rights? DUH. 

 

had Naruto had so much wanted world peace, justice and unity he should have destroyed the shinobi system and demolished the title of Kage. Or he could have worked towards the conquest of the whole continent. (Now, you can safely accuse me of watching too much Game of Thrones/ reading too much ASOIAF. It probably spoiled me any other non-historical non-modern fandom.) But this? This doesn't make sense at all, raving about world peace and a kind of 'brotherhood of the great 5 nations' while still training happily mercenaries. 

 

 

I stand by my belief that the most rational Hokage, given the circumstances in which he lived, was Tobirama. And that is pretty much that.

 

 

But in a world were Obito, mass murderer extraordinaire, is the 'Cooooooolestttt guyyyy' this is a battle lost at the beginning. 

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

Yeah, as I keep saying, Sasuke getting off without any consequences for his actions is one my biggest peeves about the ending. It's one of the worst messages that can be sent in that as long as you come from a "special" and revered family/bloodline, are handsome, and presumably rich (I'm sure the Uchiha Clan had a lot of money, both in their compound and in accounts), you can get away with pretty much anything (like a bunch of politicians and whatnot in real life, or like that BS "affluenza" kid who got drunk and ran down several people, killing and wounding some, and all he gets is like ten years of probation because he was "too rich to appreciate the consequences").

And he still is essentially trying to escape responsibility with staying away for so long and now having left again. I mean, he claimed he had to "atone" with all this traveling and seeing "the shinobi world for himself" (even though that would be pointless because he and/or Naruto were supposed to be changing it), yet Kishi can't seemed to be arsed with giving any details (like did he go to Kumo and beg Ay and Bee for forgiveness? Did he go to the Land of Iron and beg for forgiveness?), so all we can assume is that he really isn't doing anything regarding either of those reasons, especially now with the whole "top secret mission" involving a "threat worse than Kaguya" suddenly supplanting it all.

 

No kidding, and in the long run, that's what always annoyed me about the last bits of Naruto; the fact Sasuke escaped responsibility for his sins, and didn't own up to them.

 

That also shows how none of the villages got to realize all the mistakes they had made, and ended up becoming something better for it. It just goes to show you what we have felt, buddy; that in the end, Kishi either rushed his work, or he just didn't know what the hell he was doing when he tried to go deep. After all, not all of the actions of the villages are utterly evil, but they show the evils of the village system when all Hashirama wanted was to make a world where children wouldn't die as soldiers, even if that failed. :(

[SlyNinjaKnight]

Yeah, as I keep saying, Sasuke getting off without any consequences for his actions is one my biggest peeves about the ending. It's one of the worst messages that can be sent in that as long as you come from a "special" and revered family/bloodline, are handsome, and presumably rich (I'm sure the Uchiha Clan had a lot of money, both in their compound and in accounts), you can get away with pretty much anything (like a bunch of politicians and whatnot in real life, or like that BS "affluenza" kid who got drunk and ran down several people, killing and wounding some, and all he gets is like ten years of probation because he was "too rich to appreciate the consequences").

And he still is essentially trying to escape responsibility with staying away for so long and now having left again. I mean, he claimed he had to "atone" with all this traveling and seeing "the shinobi world for himself" (even though that would be pointless because he and/or Naruto were supposed to be changing it), yet Kishi can't seemed to be arsed with giving any details (like did he go to Kumo and beg Ay and Bee for forgiveness? Did he go to the Land of Iron and beg for forgiveness?), so all we can assume is that he really isn't doing anything regarding either of those reasons, especially now with the whole "top secret mission" involving a "threat worse than Kaguya" suddenly supplanting it all.

 

 

Totally agree, Sasuke still being free is easily my biggest peeve of the ending, regardless of my feelings toward the pairings, etc. You have a kid (now adult) who deserted his home, went to study under one of the village's most notorious traitors, then decided to join another international criminal group in the Akatsuki, attacked a major village, killed probably a couple dozen samurai, and threatened to arguably destroy the entire world just to remake it, but no, everything is fine now, because Sasuke helped beat Madara and Kayuga, so all of his crimes are wiped away.

 

This is another parallel between Harry Potter and Naruto; the bad boy rival gets off scott free even after committing despicable acts but because he was misguided and never given a chance to see the light, he gets off. I'm of course talking about Draco Malfoy in the Harry Potter series; in Half Blood Prince, Malfoy commits attempted murder several times, uses an Unforgivable several times but is free to walk around and have a family in the epilogue, why? Because it wasn't his fault, it was how he was raised and Draco never got a chance to shine out from under his father's and Voldemort's shadow. 

 

One thing we can all learn from Harry Potter and Naruto: if you are a bad boy/criminal, as long as you are attractive and have some sort of a sob story, you will be forgiven no questions asked. 

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

Unpopular as my opinion might be I think that the only plausible, real, good Hokage was, in fact, Tobirama.

 

But of course people are fan of the Uchiha, because people find them aesthetically pleasing and hot and, as angst is the new black, they all melt into goo at the barest mention of the clan's name. They expect shinobi, who are mercenaries, spies and killers, to be all about puppies and daisies, while the truth is that a shinobi is fundamentally a murderer. If we are frank, in a 'just' system they wouldn't even exist, there would be no Hokage and Konoha would be a city under the control of the Daimyo like many others.

 

Tobirama was a war leader - and an intelligent one - so I can't understand why people expect him to go around waxing poetry about justice and being good and fluffy with the Uchiha, who up until few years before were his bitterest enemies. He was wary, exactly as any other rational human being would have been.

 

But nope, he's a big bad monster while Uchiha Obito, profession mass murderer, is 'the coolest guy'. I never really ruminated over it, but this is probably the finest form of hypocrisy in the whole manga (and Naruto is probably the most hypocrite of them all. Hey, yo, Orochimaru was still around doing human experimentation in Gaiden, and Naruto didn't even bat an eyelash when he faced him. Such a paragon of a good leader we have here.)

 

Konoha is a 'war' village, a shinobi village. Would there be seedy, shady, nasty, horrible things that go on in there? Things that violate the barest human rights? DUH. 

 

had Naruto had so much wanted world peace, justice and unity he should have destroyed the shinobi system and demolished the title of Kage. Or he could have worked towards the conquest of the whole continent. (Now, you can safely accuse me of watching too much Game of Thrones/ reading too much ASOIAF. It probably spoiled me any other non-historical non-modern fandom.) But this? This doesn't make sense at all, raving about world peace and a kind of 'brotherhood of the great 5 nations' while still training happily mercenaries. 

 

 

I stand by my belief that the most rational Hokage, given the circumstances in which he lived, was Tobirama. And that is pretty much that.

 

 

But in a world were Obito, mass murderer extraordinaire, is the 'Cooooooolestttt guyyyy' this is a battle lost at the beginning. 

Exactly.

People need to remember exactly what type of world the characters were, and still are, living in and try not to constantly compare it to the morals and norms of real life society. It's probably because of such comparisons that many find it easier to blame Tobirama and compare him and Konoha to shady people/places/actions like here in the US. While such actions lately may not be right in the type of world we live in today, it is not the exact same as the type of world "Naruto" takes place in.

Even in the manga, it was not until near the end that the villages truly united. Up until that point, from the beginning all the way to the Gokage Summit when the Alliance was (grudgingly) made ("the enemy of my enemy is my friend"), it was a constant Cold War-style "peace", both internally and externally of the villages, assassinations, espionage, sabotage, betrayal, lies and deceit, propaganda, etc., with tensions boiling over every few decades into a new Shinobi War and then back to that "peace". Konoha may have preached "peace" and such, but beneath that, they were no better than the other villages. Again, it was largely propaganda, similar to (most likely) why Hiruzen just openly revealed Naruto being Kurama's jinchuriki (to make the other villages hesitant to attack Konoha, still rebuilding from the previous war, now weakened more from Kurama's attack and the loss of Minato), and Sasuke's whole status as "the last Uchiha" after the massacre.

[Nar123]

Oh c'mon

 

Tobirama/Konoha's actions must receive part of the blame for the events that happened in the Uchiha massacre, both the third hokage and the second hokage are highly responsible for it actually

 

Tobirama is FAR from being the best hokage, his actions regarding the Uchiha clan ( even if ultimately he had good intentions) are what made the clan begin plotting against konoha and following Madara's ideals.

When he put the uchiha isolated in the outskirts of the village to raise the police force (with the intention of spying them notwithstanding) he alienated a lot of members from the clan who before had even prioritized Konoha over their own leader Madara. 

 

Then Sarutobi... he obviously didn't kept Danzo on a tight enough leash, the guy basically manipulated everything especially when he wounded Shisui so the anbu wouldn't be able to stop the massacre, in my view Sarutobi is to blame for his lack of action in relation to Danzo's behavior, for letting him build his own force within the leaf and letting it grow out of his control as hokage

 

Now, I'm not whitewashing the Uchiha, the clan members who wanted to start a civil war are to blame too, their pride was their downfall, if they stopped and tried to search for a more peaceful solution, the whole massacre could've been averted actually

It's still fair to say that in the end there are still mysteries never explained to us during the manga, to this day we don't know yet if the uchiha helped Obito  during the kyuubi attack, there are hints but never a confirmation.

 

 

I think a lot of people here let their biased hate for everything Uchiha affect their views on this whole thing. No people, Tobirama was a bad hokage, just because he hated the uchiha too doesn't make him "cool", his decisions were pretty poor and ultimately lead to a genocide, Sarutobi also doesn't get a free pass for letting Danzo having free reign during his time as hokage

 

And that being said I would like to say that I don't like the uchiha that much... I hate how they acquired a lot of panel time in the story thus taking time away from developing more interesting characters and their situations, I hate how Sasuke sometimes appeared to be more of a protagonist than Naruto, though I don't let my overall dislike for them blinfd me from the fact that Konoha had a big part of the blame for what happened during the massacre by the actions of the villages 2nd and 3rd hokages 

Edited by Nar123, 11 July 2015 - 01:39 AM.

[Nar123]

Unpopular as my opinion might be I think that the only plausible, real, good Hokage was, in fact, Tobirama.

 

But of course people are fan of the Uchiha, because people find them aesthetically pleasing and hot and, as angst is the new black, they all melt into goo at the barest mention of the clan's name. They expect shinobi, who are mercenaries, spies and killers, to be all about puppies and daisies, while the truth is that a shinobi is fundamentally a murderer. If we are frank, in a 'just' system they wouldn't even exist, there would be no Hokage and Konoha would be a city under the control of the Daimyo like many others.

 

Tobirama was a war leader - and an intelligent one - so I can't understand why people expect him to go around waxing poetry about justice and being good and fluffy with the Uchiha, who up until few years before were his bitterest enemies. He was wary, exactly as any other rational human being would have been.

 

But nope, he's a big bad monster while Uchiha Obito, profession mass murderer, is 'the coolest guy'. I never really ruminated over it, but this is probably the finest form of hypocrisy in the whole manga (and Naruto is probably the most hypocrite of them all. Hey, yo, Orochimaru was still around doing human experimentation in Gaiden, and Naruto didn't even bat an eyelash when he faced him. Such a paragon of a good leader we have here.)

 

Konoha is a 'war' village, a shinobi village. Would there be seedy, shady, nasty, horrible things that go on in there? Things that violate the barest human rights? DUH. 

 

had Naruto had so much wanted world peace, justice and unity he should have destroyed the shinobi system and demolished the title of Kage. Or he could have worked towards the conquest of the whole continent. (Now, you can safely accuse me of watching too much Game of Thrones/ reading too much ASOIAF. It probably spoiled me any other non-historical non-modern fandom.) But this? This doesn't make sense at all, raving about world peace and a kind of 'brotherhood of the great 5 nations' while still training happily mercenaries. 

 

 

I stand by my belief that the most rational Hokage, given the circumstances in which he lived, was Tobirama. And that is pretty much that.

 

 

But in a world were Obito, mass murderer extraordinaire, is the 'Cooooooolestttt guyyyy' this is a battle lost at the beginning. 

 

I disagree

 

It adds depth to the character the fact that Tobirama could never let go of his hatred for the Uchiha deep down however he was a leader of the whole village ( the uchiha being part of it), past enemies now have become fiends and if you treat a friend like an enemy this friend will eventually turn into an enemy

 

Even if in your view he was the most "rational hokage" this doesn't mean his actions were ultimately good, because of his decision of isolating the Uchiha from the village the machinations that originated the massacre had a begin...and we know that before this the Uchia weren't plotting anything in fact they were quite happy in konoha mos tof them disregarding their clan leader Madara and chosing to stay in konoha rather than running away with him...by his decisions and prejudice, Tobirama ultimately made the Uchiha turn into what he feared they were all along 

 

In the end, he was just bad hokage through and through with good poins here and there, it doesn't help that his time as leader was relatively small compared to his brother's and the third hokage one

[Nate River]

No kidding, and in the long run, that's what always annoyed me about the last bits of Naruto; the fact Sasuke escaped responsibility for his sins, and didn't own up to them.
 
That also shows how none of the villages got to realize all the mistakes they had made, and ended up becoming something better for it. It just goes to show you what we have felt, buddy; that in the end, Kishi either rushed his work, or he just didn't know what the hell he was doing when he tried to go deep. After all, not all of the actions of the villages are utterly evil, but they show the evils of the village system when all Hashirama wanted was to make a world where children wouldn't die as soldiers, even if that failed. :(

It wasn't just Sasuke. It's Part 2's greatest failure. It stems from a couple of things. I think one is that it was a tool to try and make it easier to sell his redemptions stories to his audience. Sasuke danced all over the moral event horizon, but was never permitted to kill anyone on the side of good (who mattered) in order to make the ending easier to swallow both from the standpoint as to whether he should be forgiven and the characters acceptance of it.

The primary method is related to the demonetization of Konoha. I think the original point was that their crap stank too and that everyone has their own skeletons, but then that was obvious from chapter 2. Moreover, it ended up morphing into a general excuse as to why all it's enemies weren't THAT bad no matter how awful their crimes. I really hated this because it was accomplished primarily through Danzo (and the counsel) being a designated kitten. Even after the series killed him, the story still reached back to crap on him because he made such an easy target. Moreso because he was already dead. Almost all the villains originated from there, so there needed to be some reason why they were giant turds otherwise there would be nothing to understand and no reason to feel sorry for them.

I call it his greatest failure for two reasons. One is that it lazily glossed some incredibly atrocious behavior and villain after villain was all to skate without having to answer for anything. The worst are probably Obito, Orochimaru, and Kabuto. Kabuto gets to run an orphanage? He helped the cool guy in his genocide and how many ninja did he murder to make his army? He should be a walking international incident.

The second was that it made forgiveness a cost free endeavor. Sarutobi's inability to put aside his personal feelings for Orochimaru was ruinous. It ended up getting Saurtobi killed. This should be exhibit A as to the risk of letting these guys walk. Does anyone bring it up? Nope. Does Naruto ever have to answer why he thinks they will be different or why he should be taking it (and on everyone else's behalf no less)? Nah.

It's impossible to take his core theme seriously because nobody ever has to answer for anything and nobody has to explain why people shouldn't (or aren't) having to do so?.It's never challenged and in main story Naruto is constantly bailed out. Naruto gaiden just ignores it completely. Hooray. I think this is why Konoha and Tobirama get demonized by the story itself. If the story is going to engage in rampant blame shifting it has to get shifted somewhere.

As to Konoha they also get picked on because the other villages dirty laundry really doesn't matter much as the villains (who matter plot wise) don't hail from them nor do any of the main characters. Doing so eats time without doing much for the core conflict. While the primary theme is taken world wide it's all still an extension of Naruto-Sasuke, so getting into waste time without contributing much to the overall plot.

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

But like I said, the only thing we have that says Tobirama made the Uchiha the police force solely to segregate the clan and spy on them is Obito, and he had every reason to lie and twist certain facts to Sasuke (he knows about wanting revenge, and also knows Sasuke is quite prideful with a big ego, so he knew what buttons to push, thus how to slightly alter the story to do so), so he's not exactly a very reliable source for such a thing. It's not impossible to be true, but I'd much sooner believe Tobirama's side of the story than Obito's. I don't hate the Uchiha Clan itself (aside from eating up story, powers, and page time), but rather how it seems like they're rarely ever made to answer for anything they may have done with people, much like Sasuke kept doing, trying to say it was always everyone else's fault and never their own. "They did it first" or "they pushed us" may make it more understandable, but just like being said with Tobirama and things he and others may have done, that does not necessarily make it right or justified, and I largely blame Kishi's complete Sasuke/Uchiha bias for that too.

[Nar123]

But like I said, the only thing we have that says Tobirama made the Uchiha the police force solely to segregate the clan and spy on them is Obito, and he had every reason to lie and twist certain facts to Sasuke (he knows about wanting revenge, and also knows Sasuke is quite prideful with a big ego, so he knew what buttons to push, thus how to slightly alter the story to do so), so he's not exactly a very reliable source for such a thing. It's not impossible to be true, but I'd much sooner believe Tobirama's side of the story than Obito's. I don't hate the Uchiha Clan itself (aside from eating up story, powers, and page time), but rather how it seems like they're rarely ever made to answer for anything they may have done with people, much like Sasuke kept doing, trying to say it was always everyone else's fault and never their own. "They did it first" or "they pushed us" may make it more understandable, but just like being said with Tobirama and things he and others may have done, that does not necessarily make it right or justified, and I largely blame Kishi's complete Sasuke/Uchiha bias for that too.

 

Orochimaru says that Tobirama's actions ( his intentions notwhithstanding) are the actions that sparked up the rebellion feeling within the Uchiha clan, unknowingly or knowingly, he segregrated the Uchiha and that's a fact

 

I can accept that maybe Tobi was lying about Tobirama's spies, though instead Tobirama could be the one lying here, the truth regarding this was never revealed like how it was never revealed if the uchiha helped the obito during the kyuubi thing

 

What is a fact is that Tobirama's actions caused the Uchiha to turn into what he feared they were

 

In the case of the massacre it really was a "they pushed us" case, the Uchiha were firmly on Konoha's side, so much that the majority of them refused to follow their leader and wanted to stay loyal to the village when Madara deserted, however as Orochimaru says (in  front of Tobirama for that matter), when he decided they were to be the police he ended up segregrating them, it's clear the he didn't like them and of course didn't had a clear communication with the clan, thus the Uchiha felt excluded from the village and their pride led most of them to begin adopting Madara's ideals

 

. 

Edited by Nar123, 11 July 2015 - 03:57 AM.

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

 

Orochimaru says that Tobirama's actions ( his intentions notwhithstanding) are the actions that sparked up the rebellion feeling within the Uchiha clan, unknowingly or knowingly, he segregrated the Uchiha and that's a fact

 

I can accept that maybe Tobi was lying about Tobirama's spies, though instead Tobirama could be the one lying here, the truth regarding this was never revealed like how it was never revealed if the uchiha helped the obito during the kyuubi thing

 

What is a fact is that Tobirama's actions caused the Uchiha to turn into what he feared they were

 

In the case of the massacre it really was a "they pushed us" case, the Uchiha were firmly on Konoha's side, so much that the majority of them refused to follow their leader and wanted to stay loyal to the village when Madara deserted, however as Orochimaru says (in  front of Tobirama for that matter), when he decided they were to be the police he ended up segregrating them, it's clear the he didn't like them and of course didn't had a clear communication with the clan, thus the Uchiha felt excluded from the village and their pride led most of them to begin adopting Madara's ideals

 

. 

I always interpreted it as Tobirama trying to appease the Uchiha Clan's demands for more power within the village while simultaneously trying to keep the peace in the village, thus he made them the police force (as he said, "something they would be good at"), but rather than be content with essentially being one of the strongest forces within Konoha, they got a taste of power and control, thus wanted more, so Tobirama's own action backfired.

As far as I recall, the real segregation didn't start until after Obito made Kurama attack Konoha, largely at the hands of Danzo, Homura, and Koharu, long after Tobirama died.

[Nar123]

I always interpreted it as Tobirama trying to appease the Uchiha Clan's demands for more power within the village while simultaneously trying to keep the peace in the village, thus he made them the police force (as he said, "something they would be good at"), but rather than be content with essentially being one of the strongest forces within Konoha, they got a taste of power and control, thus wanted more, so Tobirama's own action backfired.

As far as I recall, the real segregation didn't start until after Obito made Kurama attack Konoha, largely at the hands of Danzo, Homura, and Koharu, long after Tobirama died.

 

No, Tobirama's actions essentially segregrated the uchiha in the outskirts and strenghtened Madara's supporters.

If he was indeed looking for something the uchiha were good at, it backfired spectacularly, his decision ended up making them embrace more and more Madara ideals

 

remember that before Tobirama, the Uchiha were fine in Konoha,they even refused Madara, and still something seems dubious in Tobirama's words since the police position was not one of prestige, they had to stay where the cells were, basically in the outskirts

 

If Tobirama wanted the position to help the Uchihas, he failed, it ended up only hurting their pride

 

here

 

 

Edited by Nar123, 11 July 2015 - 05:28 AM.

[Nate River]

As far as I recall, the real segregation didn't start until after Obito made Kurama attack Konoha, largely at the hands of Danzo, Homura, and Koharu, long after Tobirama died.

Ah, the designated kitten.

[rocci]

If uchiha is doesn't like to be in konoha, they should walk out and make their own village or join the other village.
If konoha stop them in fear to weaken their military strength, then it would make them more bad guy than uchiha.

Kishi should just make uchiha massacre as a mean to get the eye balls, and there is no need for political reasoning.
Anyway, why don't they keep young uchiha as a mean to procreate the eye and have control over it, instead genocide that lead to extinction.

[Nar123]

If uchiha is doesn't like to be in konoha, they should walk out and make their own village or join the other village.
If konoha stop them in fear to weaken their military strength, then it would make them more bad guy than uchiha.

Kishi should just make uchiha massacre as a mean to get the eye balls, and there is no need for political reasoning.
Anyway, why don't they keep young uchiha as a mean to procreate the eye and have control over it, instead genocide that lead to extinction.

 

I think the Uchihas would be too proud to simply walk away from the village they helped create

Anyway the whole massacre business is a shady thing in fact to this day still we don't know if the Uchiha actually helped Obito or not 

Edited by Nar123, 11 July 2015 - 05:31 AM.

[rocci]

 
I think the Uchihas would be too proud to simply walk away from the village they helped create
Anyway the whole massacre business is a shady thing in fact to this day still we don't know if the Uchiha actually helped Obito or not 

Actually, the thing that I want to know from that massacre is, how much the kill for itachi, obito, and danzou. Each one of them played role in that night.
I don't think itachi is capable to kill all of the clan by himself. Or perhaps uchiha clan is truly fodder.

Why not? Even if they get to war with konoha and they lose, there must be some sort of survivor right? To rebuild the clan.

Edited by rocci, 11 July 2015 - 05:40 AM.

[BlackBird19]

What I found funny was in the end Tobirama was proven right. He was right in a sense to not trust the Uchiha. They were segregated somewhat yes, but they weren't openly ostracized. They weren't slaves or outcasts or exiled by the village. They didn't have the power or say they wanted when it came to village politics and protocols so they to planned a coup. So why am I supposed to feel sorry for them? They were the ones willing to risk civil war just for more power in Konoha. It was that choice that gave Danzo the opening he needed to deal with them. It's one of the few times in this manga you see a choice lead to devastating consequences.

 

I've always believed that you must take responsibility for your choices and accept the consequences of those choices whether good or bad. While I don't like Itachi's character I never really disliked it either because he was shown to be willing to suffer the consequences of his choices. He chose the safety of his little brother over his entire clan. The safety of Konoha I always felt was secondary. But he was willing to take on the consequences anyhow.

 

Hiruzen Sarutobi was also shown to be someone who knew that one day he would have to answer for the choices he made, and answer he did. However these seem to be the exceptions to the rule in this manga. Forgiveness and redemption without consequence became the norm. The hokages, the counsel and the village itself became the excuses for Kishi to use to try and pull that ideal off. Once Kishi decided that he was truly going to focus on the redemption of certain characters rather than the change and justice that was supposed to be brought on by others, the story was ruined. So instead of the heroic tale of Naruto Uzumaki, we got the redemptive tale of Sasuke and the Uchiha clan.