54175 replies to this topic

[Namaenash]

https://www.animenew...omic-con/.94186
so in this interview kishi says hinata was decided in the middle of the story when he realized she loved him before iruka but in another one he says hinata was always meant to marry naruto
https://web.archive....ival-of-boruto/
 

When it comes to interview with Kishi, I always take it with a grain of salt. It sounds more like someone trying to explain and justify the mess he created, rather than insights about messages and aspirations he tried to bring with the franchise. This is true even before the ending.

That's expected, because his story doesn't explain by itself, or by any supporting material that comes with it. Therefore his interviews have always been about clarification of the story itself.

Unlike some other authors, like Isayama, who were being as candid as possible, although he managed to pull the impossible: lifting Kodansha's sales for the first time in 18 years and return it to profitability. lifting Kodanshas sales for the first time in 18 years and returning it to profitability https://www.bloomber...-next-manga-hit

Isayama candidly says he had no idea how long it's going to last when he started writing AoT. He also told us candidly he runs out of story to tell. Sounds like someone who has nothing to lose, yet managed to deliver. And in his many interviews, I learnt that a mangaka has full control of his/her manga (probably after a certain threshold is met).

[totherpage95]

https://youtu.be/zZ8EOIYPrG4
as much as i am or was a naruto fan 11:58 seems more like dragonball than naruto

[BlueStarSaber]

When it comes to interview with Kishi, I always take it with a grain of salt. It sounds more like someone trying to explain and justify the mess he created, rather than insights about messages and aspirations he tried to bring with the franchise. This is true even before the ending.

That's expected, because his story doesn't explain by itself, or by any supporting material that comes with it. Therefore his interviews have always been about clarification of the story itself.

Unlike some other authors, like Isayama, who were being as candid as possible, although he managed to pull the impossible: lifting Kodansha's sales for the first time in 18 years and return it to profitability. lifting Kodanshas sales for the first time in 18 years and returning it to profitability https://www.bloomber...-next-manga-hit

Isayama candidly says he had no idea how long it's going to last when he started writing AoT. He also told us candidly he runs out of story to tell. Sounds like someone who has nothing to lose, yet managed to deliver. And in his many interviews, I learnt that a mangaka has full control of his/her manga (probably after a certain threshold is met).

 

Do you think Kishimoto had full control or not, because it really feels like he didn't despite how big Naruto was?

[Namaenash]

 
Do you think Kishimoto had full control or not, because it really feels like he didn't despite how big Naruto was?

I wouldn't know for sure. I think he has full control as far as manga goes. Quoting on the article I shared earlier:

The author has almost absolute control in Japan, says Jason DeMarco, whos been licensing anime for Turner Broadcasting System Inc.-owned Cartoon Network Inc. for more than two decades. Thats totally different from U.S. publishing, where its like, Thanks for creating Spider-Mannow get the f--- out of here, so we can make a lot of money off of Spider-Man. 

Read more at: https://www.bloomber...-next-manga-hit

[Bail o' Lies]

Honestly, you shouldn't trust when Kishimoto says when he decided to switch the pairings because he has change that answer so many times; from what I recall. Ignore it and take everything else in the interview with a grain of salt.

 

As for how would Naruto and Sakura date/how (or what) would their relationship be like?

 

Well, before I get to what I think I gonna bring up a fan comic I saw once and two events made by kishimoto.

 

First the fan comic and maybe someone here also saw it once. It was about the gag of Naruto's apartment was covered in bugs and it had a side by side of how Sakura would react to it and how Hinata would react to it. Sakura upon seeing it berated Naruto for letting his apartment be infested with bugs, order him to get ride of them in, and as he was ineffectually trying to get rid of them with bug spray; she got more and more pissed off till she smash the floor. Hinata the Perfect instead went poor Naruto and took it upon herself to kill the bug with her gentle fist style while Naruto cheered her on from the sidelines; it ends with Hinata calling Shino and having him deal with it.

 

The two kishimoto scenes are when Naruto tried asking Sakura out on a date at the start of part two. Her demand was, "sure, but he would pay for it," he couldn't so no date. And then the promotional manga short for the last where Naruto tries to take Hinata on a date realizes the restaurant is too expensive; while he is wondering how he going to pay for it, Hinata uses her byakugan to see he doesn't have enough money and instead says she want ramen instead.

 

Anyways, onto the dating relationship. After the confession, how ever it goes, and the honeymoon phase of it. I see Sakura doling out an ever increasing list or rules and demands that increase as they relationship develops:

 

"Naruto, if you want this hanging out at the ramen stand to be a date you'll have to pay for the meal."

 

"Naruto, if you want to kiss me. I need to be sure you brushed your teeth today."

 

"Naruto, the ramen stand is nice for dates where we just hang out, but if you have to do or take me somewhere else to make the date more significant/meaningful."

 

"Naruto, if you want me to wear something nice for a date it only fair you wear something nice as well."

 

"Naruto, we've been dating for a while and my parents want to meet you."

 

"Naruto, I am not having sex with you unless this room is clean."

 

"Well Naruto, if you want me to move in with you here are my list of conditions...."

 

And so on. Of course there will be their ups and down. But, as Naruto fulfill these conditions, I see Sakura reciprocating by falling more in love with him; then she already was.

 

I bring up Hinata to help show how bad she was for him. Sakura would force him to improve himself and meet standards she has set. Hinata indulges Naruto which help made him go to rust by the time Boruto starts. She would clean his room for him without him ever having to say anything. She would content herself with never going to a fancy restaurant and always having to go to the ramen stand.

 

Sakura would make sure Naruto would not neglect their kids. Hinata doesn't say anything while their family falls apart other then defends him at every point to their increasingly frustrated son; even though she is utterly miserable.

Edited by Bail o' Lies, 15 October 2020 - 08:54 AM.

[Phantom_999]

https://www.animenew...omic-con/.94186
so in this interview kishi says hinata was decided in the middle of the story when he realized she loved him before iruka but in another one he says hinata was always meant to marry naruto
https://web.archive....ival-of-boruto/

 
That is something I have ALWAYS BEEN skeptical about. "This Naruto was always meant to marry Hinata schtick". The manga does not show it, and "not a romance manga" is not an excuse, because as I've stated many times, if that WERE THE CASE why isn't Naruto like Goku or Luffy in that he does not give any thoughts about girls or romance? Why is the story going out of it's way to show a mutualy understanding and tenderness in Naruto's relationship with Sakura but Hinata gets zilch? For how much of "not a romance manga" it is, the story goes out of its way to show Naruto and Skura becoming closer and Sakura's feelings for Sasuke are never shown in a positive light from way back in the beginning because Sasuke dismisses them at best.

 

And anti-NaruSaku shippers can say all they want that Naruto and Skura are just friends, but the series could not even give any proper resolution to their relationship and have them admit they are better off as "just friends", and instead imploded on their entire relationship by giving that excuse that Naruto only ever Saw Sakura as a trophy to win and Sakura knew that all along and just played him for her own convienience. That very factor makes any scene that the two of them have this unbreakable "platonic bond" after the fact in Boruto as complete and utter garbage. THAT WAS THE EXTREMITY IT TOOK for Naruto even to look Hinata's way (well, also the Genjutsu he was trapped in beating him over the head Hinata always loved him so she's entitled for him to love her back)

 

My point on this is that the interviews and how the story plays itself out directly contradict each other. Naruto has all of this bonding with Sakura throughout part II of the manga but the story does not even go out of it's way to show that Hinata is an improtant presence in Naruto's life. IT DOESN'T MATTER if Naruto is not a romance manga. If the story is going out of it's way to show that Naruto has his relationship with Sakura growing and devloping but it is only mean to be platonic Hinata should be there with Naruto to balance out as the romantic interest. If not, Kishimoto should have just make Naruto not interested in women alltogether so that him marrying Hinata without any development is justified like How Goku could marry Chichi without issue because Bulma never cuaght his eye romantically nor did anyother female that appeared in Dragon Ball's story. Besides, as we all know The last Naruto movie for the franchise was nothing but a shojo clichè $%&*show, so the series IS NOT A ROMANCE MANGA?  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Edited by Phantom_999, 15 October 2020 - 05:22 PM.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

 
That is something I have ALWAYS BEEN skeptical about. "This Naruto was always meant to marry Hinata schtick". The manga does not show it, and "not a romance manga" is not an excuse, because as I've stated many times, if that WERE THE CASE why isn't Naruto like Goku or Luffy in that he does not give any thoughts about girls or romance? Why is the story going out of it's way to show a mutualy understanding and tenderness in Naruto's relationship with Sakura but Hinata gets zilch? For how much of "not a romance manga" it is, the story goes out of its way to show Naruto and Skura becoming closer and Sakura's feelings for Sasuke are never shown in a positive light from way back in the beginning because Sasuke dismisses them at best.

 

And anti-NaruSaku shippers can say all they want that Naruto and Skura are just friends, but the series could not even give any proper resolution to their relationship and have them admit they are better off as "just friends", and instead imploded on their entire relationship by giving that excuse that Naruto only ever Saw Sakura as a trophy to win and Sakura knew that all along and just played him for her own convienience. That very factor makes any scene that the two of them have this unbreakable "platonic bond" after the fact in Boruto as complete and utter garbage. THAT WAS THE EXTREMITY IT TOOK for Naruto even to look Hinata's way (well, also the Genjutsu he was trapped in beating him over the head Hinata always loved him so she's entitled for him to love her back)

 

My point on this is that the interviews and how the story plays itself out directly contradict each other. Naruto has all of this bonding with Sakura throughout part II of the manga but the story does not even go out of it's way to show that Hinata is an improtant presence in Naruto's life. IT DOESN'T MATTER if Naruto is not a romance manga. If the story is going out of it's way to show that Naruto has his relationship with Sakura growing and devloping but it is only mean to be platonic Hinata should be there with Naruto to balance out as the romanc interest. If not, Kishimoto should have just make Naruto not interested in women alltogether so that him marrying Hinata without any development is justified like How Golu could marry Chichi without issue because Bulma never cuaght his eye romantically nor did anyother female that appeared in Dragon Ball's story. Besides, as we all know The last Naruto movie for the franchise was nothing but a shojo clichè $%&*show, so the series IS NOT A ROMANCE MANGA?  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

You pretty much nailed it, Phantom. BUT we see at least in Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z how for Goku, even if he wasn't interested in girls for a while due to how he grew up, he really got to be in love with Chichi and it does show, even for his dorkiness and his flaws, he loves his sons with all his heart as well, since his family is one of his big motivators to become even stronger.

 

You just don't see it with NaruHina as it's been done because of the fact it's so forced and Naruto is only with Hinata out of guilt and feelings of "obligation", not out of genuine love, and how we see how miserable both of them are, just because Hinata had to be selfish and Naruto couldn't just have said he wasn't into her like that, as well as Sakura not being better by assuming just because she hurt Naruto she doesn't "deserve" to be with him in spite of the fact she was with him when it counted.

[Chatte]

Guys, it's simple.

There's a reason for Kishimoto's contradictions (I actually have in mind a series to be called just like that where I'll try to dwell on this)

 

But without making it too long here, I'll say this... there's this thing called brand reputation management.

 

Let's admit it, from a marketing/branding standpoint, The Last had the biggest fuss around it.

 

Now, they kept marketing it in so many deceitful ways that when the movie hit and fans saw what it is about exactly and how it contradicts everything Naruto ever stood for, well... the reputation of the brand The Last & Naruto by conjunction suffered a fatal blow.

 

So of course, they had to manage that reputation. So they had Kishi state all those things at different times, depending on the reactions waves, because they dealt with differences in those reactions at different times like I was saying.

 

First we had from the beginning excuse... but then people started asking, okay, if it was from the beginning, why show NaruSaku, Sakura respectively moving on from Sasuke to Naruto?

So then we had it from the middle / Sakura would be a terrible woman for moving from Sasuke... And people were okay but if we had it from the middle why confirm Sakura = Kushina in the end?

 

So then we had NaruSaku = red herring and the last is a way of Naruto to part with Kushina and Sakura, respectively.

 

See what I mean?

 

It was pure brand reputation management at every step of the way.

Edited by Chatte, 13 October 2020 - 09:03 PM.

[Derock]

Guys, it's simple.

There's a reason for Kishimoto's contradictions (I actually have in mind a series to be called just like that where I'll try to dwell on this)

 

But without making it too long here, I'll say this... there's this thing called brand reputation management.

 

Let's admit it, from a marketing/branding standpoint, The Last had the biggest fuss around it.

 

Now, they kept marketing it in so many deceitful ways that when the movie hit and fans saw what it is about exactly and how it contradicts everything Naruto ever stood for, well... the reputation of the brand The Last & Naruto by conjunction suffered a fatal blow.

 

So of course, they had to manage that reputation. So they had Kishi state all those things at different times, depending on the reactions waves, because they dealt with differences in those reactions at different times like I was saying.

 

First we had from the beginning excuse... but then people started asking, okay, if it was from the beginning, why show NaruSaku, Sakura respectively moving on from Naruto?

So then we had it from the middle / Sakura would be a terrible woman for moving from Sasuke... And people were okay but if we had it from the middle why confirm Sakura = Kushina in the end?

 

So then we had NaruSaku = red herring and the last is a way of Naruto to part with Kushina and Sakura, respectively.

 

See what I mean?

 

It was pure brand reputation management at every step of the way.

 

So, in other words, damage control. 

[Chatte]

 

So, in other words, damage control. 

Pretty much, yeah.

[Phantom_999]

I’m aware of it of course. I’m just saying anyone that doesn’t blindingly take his interviews at face value could tell what he says and what the story says are completely different.

[Namaenash]

Clearly, the damage control or brand reputation management doesn't work.

The franchise lost 85%-90% of its revenue. Kishi's new manga flopped. Etc.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

Clearly, the damage control or brand reputation management doesn't work.

The franchise lost 85%-90% of its revenue. Kishi's new manga flopped. Etc.

 

Yep. Fans in Japan being pissed, calling Naruto the worst scumbag and Sakura a terrible woman, hating what Kishimoto has said, etc.

[Illnevergiveup3]

If Kishimoto decided to redo the ending the way he wanted to do it; how do you feel he should go about it? Or would go about it?

[James S Cassidy]

Guys, it's simple.

There's a reason for Kishimoto's contradictions (I actually have in mind a series to be called just like that where I'll try to dwell on this)

 

But without making it too long here, I'll say this... there's this thing called brand reputation management.

 

Let's admit it, from a marketing/branding standpoint, The Last had the biggest fuss around it.

 

Now, they kept marketing it in so many deceitful ways that when the movie hit and fans saw what it is about exactly and how it contradicts everything Naruto ever stood for, well... the reputation of the brand The Last & Naruto by conjunction suffered a fatal blow.

 

So of course, they had to manage that reputation. So they had Kishi state all those things at different times, depending on the reactions waves, because they dealt with differences in those reactions at different times like I was saying.

 

First we had from the beginning excuse... but then people started asking, okay, if it was from the beginning, why show NaruSaku, Sakura respectively moving on from Sasuke to Naruto?

So then we had it from the middle / Sakura would be a terrible woman for moving from Sasuke... And people were okay but if we had it from the middle why confirm Sakura = Kushina in the end?

 

So then we had NaruSaku = red herring and the last is a way of Naruto to part with Kushina and Sakura, respectively.

 

See what I mean?

 

It was pure brand reputation management at every step of the way.

It is just horrible that more and more stories are being like this. They seem to dictate the story based on popularity, but they never realize that most characters are popular because they don't follow a forced plot point.

When you start forcing more out of a character because "their popularity increase" then you are basically selling out.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

It is just horrible that more and more stories are being like this. They seem to dictate the story based on popularity, but they never realize that most characters are popular because they don't follow a forced plot point.

When you start forcing more out of a character because "their popularity increase" then you are basically selling out.

 

Yeah, pretty much, or when you can't even develop as many characters as you can in the long haul too.

[Chatte]

It is just horrible that more and more stories are being like this. They seem to dictate the story based on popularity, but they never realize that most characters are popular because they don't follow a forced plot point.

When you start forcing more out of a character because "their popularity increase" then you are basically selling out.

Yeeah and I think that's the problem with stories nowadays.

 

They're not out there to tell a message, leave something behind. They're there to see which character or ship is more popular so we put them into vs situation so it would generate more hype by people who are in #teamthis versus #theamthat.

 

It's sickening, to be honest.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

Yeeah and I think that's the problem with stories nowadays.

 

They're not out there to tell a message, leave something behind. They're there to see which character or ship is more popular so we put them into vs situation so it would generate more hype by people who are in #teamthis versus #theamthat.

 

It's sickening, to be honest.

 

You're not wrong about that, Chatte. Even modern Western cartoons try to do a lot of the same things lately, and forget to just try to tell a good story now and then that will help draw kids in with its creators only wanting to do stuff that they'd like without thinking about the target audience.

[James S Cassidy]

Yeeah and I think that's the problem with stories nowadays.

 

They're not out there to tell a message, leave something behind. They're there to see which character or ship is more popular so we put them into vs situation so it would generate more hype by people who are in #teamthis versus #theamthat.

 

It's sickening, to be honest.

Yeah. Take Harley Quinn and how much DC is just using her for everything. They even have her in lesbian relationship and such and she is getting way overplayed. Instead of Suicide Squad or Birds of Prey...it is like "Harley Quinn and the other people."

Now Harley Quinn is a good character, but with them over using her she is getting stale. Worse still when originally the Joker and Harley relationship is supposed to be a cautionary tale about toxic relationships, it becomes more of a "this is what true love is" which is just not a good thing.

Might as well have Batman and Harley Quinn be in a relationship and called "amazing." It would make about as such sense.

No, I am tired of the cheap thrill with story telling and the force romance popularity contest. You can't just put two characters together and call it romance. They have to have chemistry.

It just sucks that actual GOOD relationships are squandered and considered bad like Superman and Wonder Woman. They are a good couple, but people say it sucks for no other reason than "Superman has to be with Lois. No ifs ans or buts."

Edited by James S Cassidy, 18 October 2020 - 04:39 PM.

[RulesofNature]

Clearly, the damage control or brand reputation management doesn't work.

The franchise lost 85%-90% of its revenue. Kishi's new manga flopped. Etc.

And the thing is, I don't know how they could ever undo the damage. It's not just the pairing, but so much of the writing has been devalued or twisted in order to keep the franchise going. Like, we can all point out various morals, good morals, that the series did a 180 on at the end. Stuff like hard work over natural talent, or that the ninja system turns people into weapons. Even the bonds of the characters have been shattered, because let me tell you reading the manga there's no indication that Hinata is anywhere close to the level of importance in Naruto's life than Sasuke is. They even killed off Neji in order to give NaruHina a moment, only to turn around and say that the moment didn't amount to much since Naruto didn't talk to Hinata again until years later.

 

It's a mess, there's no justification for what they did and nothing short of massive retcons, timeline BS, or the like will ever fix it.