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Naruto's Talk-no-Jutsu

Talk no Jutsu

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#21 Bryon_Konoha_Ninja

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Posted 11 October 2021 - 05:00 PM

Thanks.
 
I mean, what does that really say about Naruto? That the antagonists he sees himself in are worthy of sympathy and aren't really that bad despite their crimes? That Obito really is the coolest guy ever? But those he doesn't see himself in, like Hidan, deserve to be killed without any sympathy in the name of revenge? That doesn't make Naruto look good, it makes him look egotistical. Like he's not seeing them for who they are. He sees them as extensions of himself, he's Talk-no-jutsuing himself and not in a way where he's trying to keep his own darkness in check.
 
And then if you remember that Naruto was partially based on Kishi himself...there's something really interesting to be said there.


Tell me about it. I think the original concept was for him to be empathetic, due to how others treated him allowing him to get an understanding of others deep down, but it got lost over time because of events and other stuff like poor writing.

Considering you see it with Konohamaru, Inari, as well as Tsunade, Neji, and even Sai to an extent, it shows it wasn't supposed to be made to be done only for those similar to Naruto, but because of how things went, it did become like that, making Naruto lose his way, like some other characters felt like they did because of what the story was "telling" us.

#22 James S Cassidy

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Posted 16 October 2021 - 02:56 PM

Tell me about it. I think the original concept was for him to be empathetic, due to how others treated him allowing him to get an understanding of others deep down, but it got lost over time because of events and other stuff like poor writing.

Considering you see it with Konohamaru, Inari, as well as Tsunade, Neji, and even Sai to an extent, it shows it wasn't supposed to be made to be done only for those similar to Naruto, but because of how things went, it did become like that, making Naruto lose his way, like some other characters felt like they did because of what the story was "telling" us.

 

This is why the Gaara TnJ is the only one that feel genuine because Naruto admits he has people by his side over time, while Gaara remained alone. It is okay for Naruto to admit that while he can relate he also had advantages and maybe even privileges. 

It is like what I told people. "When I can't find what I am looking for...I become what I am looking for and then what I was looking for comes and finds me."


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#23 Bryon_Konoha_Ninja

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Posted 16 October 2021 - 04:38 PM

 

This is why the Gaara TnJ is the only one that feel genuine because Naruto admits he has people by his side over time, while Gaara remained alone. It is okay for Naruto to admit that while he can relate he also had advantages and maybe even privileges. 

It is like what I told people. "When I can't find what I am looking for...I become what I am looking for and then what I was looking for comes and finds me."

 

Nicely said, James. :) And I absolutely agree. We see that too when Naruto talked to Konohamaru at the end of Chapter/Episode 2 after he used the Harem Jutsu to beat Ebisu, about how he felt alone but was lucky when Iruka had acknowledged him, allowing him to go on the path he started on.



#24 Phantom_999

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Posted 17 October 2021 - 08:19 AM

Right so I figured that I'd go into more depth about my opinions on the talk-no-jutsu. It is a hit or miss, in all honesty depending on how you view it, sometimes it is done well enough, others it feels like an excuse to again promote the war is bad propaganda as I have said. Gaara, as brought up before, is one of the well done ones because while Naruto relents on how similar he is to Gaara that they were both hosts of monsters that never asked for and were viewed as monsters themselves and therefore isolated and alone Naruto also says he won't let Gaara kill what matters to him. As Nate already stated, It is one thing to come to an understanding, but even so sometimes two people just can't compromise, that is the nature of humans. Naruto's talk-no-jutsu is just a convenient all solving hammer in direct conflict that PAINTS him as compassionate, yet he does nothing to solve the underlying problems because there was not any thought put into it beyond having Naruto say it will work out because I say so, instead of offering proper solutions. In fact Naruto contradicts him self or the story contradicts these damn talk-no-jutsu morals later down the line. Naruto said to Nagato that he will achieve peace so others won't have to suffer from war anymore, he later said Sasuke is all that matter s to him and he will (not gayly I suppose) die together with Sasuke despite saying to Nagato that he will achieve peace. Kishi had Naruto lose Jiraiya so he could understand Sasuke's pain but show he chose the moral high ground to not be consumed by revenge. YET he still kisses Sasuke's kitten and says that excuses everything Sasuke did and hypocritically accepts it plus will just go down with Sasuke instead of pointing out he went through everything Sasuke did but is not taking it out on everyone and everything in anger. He could have said that yes he didn't have a family to begin with but he never asked or wanted for his parents to die before he could ever know them just like Sasuke never asked for his family to be murdered by his own brother. He could have said that both he and Sasuke both lost their families but still have a home with people waiting for them, Sasuke just chose to reject it. Naruto is not compassionate towards Sasuke of all people, he is showing condescending pity on him and says everything Sasuke does is okay because they are friends instead of knocking sense into him, like a true friend would and is only forcing his desires onto Sasuke. Not to mention the whole war is bad schtick is turned on it's head by the very nature of the 4th great ninja war. What was the reasoning of the ninja alliance going to war? to protect their world. sometimes you cant compromise on something because it means you lose everything, perfect example right here. You promote war as a bad thing, yet you choose to go to war because you have something to protect? And on that note, If Naruto's talk-no-jutsu is so effective on it's intended targets, how serious are the villains in their goals I wonder? They are willing to escalate to outright genocide to achieve their goals yet Naruto acts like they are misguided children that have no idea what they're doing. But are they not adults making their own choices like Naruto is?

 

Honestly my issue with the talk-no-jutsu is just how hypocritical it was and how lazily it was used. It says one thing but the writing undermines and contradicts it in the next moment. Boruto is the definitive proof of that. Naruto showed he talked a big game but didn't back it up.


Edited by Phantom_999, 22 November 2021 - 12:54 PM.

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#25 Bryon_Konoha_Ninja

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Posted 17 October 2021 - 06:03 PM

Right so I figured that I'd go into more depth about my opinions on the talk-no-jutsu. It is a hit or miss, in all honesty depending on how you view it, sometimes it is done well enough, others it feels like an excuse to again promote the war is bad propaganda as I have said. Gaara, as brought up before, is one of the well done ones because while Naruto relents on how similar he is to Gaara that they were both hosts of monsters that never asked for and were viewed as monsters themselves and therefore isolated and alone Naruto also says he won't let Gaara kill what matters to him. As Nate already stated, It is one thing to come to an understanding, but even so sometimes two people just can't compromise, that is the nature of humans. Naruto's talk-no-jutsu is just a convenient all solving hammer in direct conflict that PAINTS him as compassionate, yet he does nothing to solve the underlying problems because there was not any thought put into it beyond having Naruto say it will work out because I say so, instead of offering proper solutions. In fact Naruto contradicts him self or the story contradicts these damn talk-no-jutsu morals later down the line. Naruto said to Nagato that he will achieve peace so others won't have to suffer from war anymore, he later said Sasuke is all that matter s to him and he will (not gayly I suppose) die together with Sasuke despite saying to Nagato that he will achieve peace. Kishi had Naruto lose Jiraiya so he could understand Sasuke's pain but show he chose the moral high ground to not be consumed by revenge. YET he still kisses Sasuke's kitten and says that excuses everything Sasuke did and hypocritically accepts it plus will just go down Sasuke instead of pointing out he went through everything Sasuke did but is not taking it out on everyone and everything in anger. He could have said that yes he didn't have a family to begin with but he never asked or wanted for his parents to die before he could ever know them just like Sasuke never asked for his family to be murdered by his own brother. He could have said that both he and Sasuke both lost their families but still have a home with people waiting for them, Sasuke just chose to reject it. Naruto is not compassionate towards Ssauke of all people, he is showing condescending pity on him and says everything Sasuke does is okay because they are friends instead of knocking sense into him, like a true friend would and is only forcing his desires onto Sasuke. Not to mention the whole war is bad schtick is turned on it's head by the very nature of the 4th great ninja war. What was the reasoning of the ninja alliance going to war? to protect their world. sometimes you cant compromise on something because it means you lose everything, perfect example right here. You promote war as a bad thing, yet you made a war because one side has something they want to protect? And on that note, If Naruto's talk-no-jutsu is so effective on it's intended targets, how serious are the villains in their goals I wonder? They are willing to escalate to outright genocide to achieve their goals yet Naruto acts like they are misguided children that have no idea what they're doing. But are they not adults making their own choices like Naruto is?
 
Honestly my issue with the talk-no-jutsu is just how hypocritical it was and how lazily it was used. It says one thing but the writing undermines and contradicts it in the next moment. Boruto is the definitive proof of that. Naruto showed he talked a big game but didn't back it up.

 
Which ties back to what I said about how the Talk no Jutsu obviously was meant to be to show Naruto's empathy, but with the crappy direction the series began to take, with the story being changed a lot in many cases, it became less about that. It just shows that with the way things are in Boruto if nothing really has changed.
 
And it ties also to how the backstory also hints of how things didn't become like how Hashirama wanted decades before, due to the other leaders as well as influence from others, which to me shapes Naruto and his current time in Boruto as well, considering Shikamaru and Kakashi, due to their fanaticism for the system even as much as it screwed them up, prevented Naruto from executing any real changes.

Edited by Bryon_Konoha_Ninja, 18 October 2021 - 04:42 PM.


#26 milan kyuubi

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Posted 18 October 2021 - 09:56 AM

It's even more stupid when you take into the account of The Last retconing everything left and right. All this time Naruto used emotions to TNJ someone. He did not even known what emotions were. It was all food for him.


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#27 Bryon_Konoha_Ninja

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Posted 18 October 2021 - 04:44 PM

It's even more stupid when you take into the account of The Last retconing everything left and right. All this time Naruto used emotions to TNJ someone. He did not even known what emotions were. It was all food for him.


Exactly, and claiming he knows squat about love when he wasnt into Hinata like that. Further proof stupid decisions were to break what was meant to show how strong Narutos empathy is!

Edited by Bryon_Konoha_Ninja, 18 October 2021 - 05:12 PM.


#28 James S Cassidy

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Posted 19 October 2021 - 06:20 PM

Right so I figured that I'd go into more depth about my opinions on the talk-no-jutsu. It is a hit or miss, in all honesty depending on how you view it, sometimes it is done well enough, others it feels like an excuse to again promote the war is bad propaganda as I have said. Gaara, as brought up before, is one of the well done ones because while Naruto relents on how similar he is to Gaara that they were both hosts of monsters that never asked for and were viewed as monsters themselves and therefore isolated and alone Naruto also says he won't let Gaara kill what matters to him. As Nate already stated, It is one thing to come to an understanding, but even so sometimes two people just can't compromise, that is the nature of humans. Naruto's talk-no-jutsu is just a convenient all solving hammer in direct conflict that PAINTS him as compassionate, yet he does nothing to solve the underlying problems because there was not any thought put into it beyond having Naruto say it will work out because I say so, instead of offering proper solutions. In fact Naruto contradicts him self or the story contradicts these damn talk-no-jutsu morals later down the line. Naruto said to Nagato that he will achieve peace so others won't have to suffer from war anymore, he later said Sasuke is all that matter s to him and he will (not gayly I suppose) die together with Sasuke despite saying to Nagato that he will achieve peace. Kishi had Naruto lose Jiraiya so he could understand Sasuke's pain but show he chose the moral high ground to not be consumed by revenge. YET he still kisses Sasuke's kitten and says that excuses everything Sasuke did and hypocritically accepts it plus will just go down Sasuke instead of pointing out he went through everything Sasuke did but is not taking it out on everyone and everything in anger. He could have said that yes he didn't have a family to begin with but he never asked or wanted for his parents to die before he could ever know them just like Sasuke never asked for his family to be murdered by his own brother. He could have said that both he and Sasuke both lost their families but still have a home with people waiting for them, Sasuke just chose to reject it. Naruto is not compassionate towards Ssauke of all people, he is showing condescending pity on him and says everything Sasuke does is okay because they are friends instead of knocking sense into him, like a true friend would and is only forcing his desires onto Sasuke. Not to mention the whole war is bad schtick is turned on it's head by the very nature of the 4th great ninja war. What was the reasoning of the ninja alliance going to war? to protect their world. sometimes you cant compromise on something because it means you lose everything, perfect example right here. You promote war as a bad thing, yet you made a war because one side has something they want to protect? And on that note, If Naruto's talk-no-jutsu is so effective on it's intended targets, how serious are the villains in their goals I wonder? They are willing to escalate to outright genocide to achieve their goals yet Naruto acts like they are misguided children that have no idea what they're doing. But are they not adults making their own choices like Naruto is?

 

Honestly my issue with the talk-no-jutsu is just how hypocritical it was and how lazily it was used. It says one thing but the writing undermines and contradicts it in the next moment. Boruto is the definitive proof of that. Naruto showed he talked a big game but didn't back it up.

That is a good point. He will talk no jutsu and put down every other person for doing horrible things in the name of revenge, survival, and at times even because they were victims of a war-torn country. Some even have an legit reasons to do what they are doing. 

Oh BUUTTTT if Sasuke does anything for whatever reason and someone ELSE seeks justice for his wrong doing...now all of a sudden Sasuke throws all the preaching he just did out in the trash because "For Sasuke it is different...." Naruto begging the Raikage and hyperventilating because "Sasuke has to answer for his crimes and take responsibility" essentially was the most INSULTING plot element I have ever seen.

What was this series called "Naruto" again?


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#29 BlueStarSaber

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Posted 27 October 2021 - 02:51 AM

Found this new video uploaded by a YouTuber talking about how naruto was not about being an underdog, but overcoming hatred. To be honest I don't think he gets the point on why people were upset about how the underdog themes were ruined nor why people got annoyed with how the cycle of hatred was handled (plus some unnecessary sakura bashing).

https://youtu.be/l2tgLkVVgfg

Edited by BlueStarSaber, 20 November 2021 - 11:31 PM.


#30 James S Cassidy

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Posted 20 November 2021 - 01:30 PM

Found this new video uploaded by a YouTuber talking about how naruto was about being an underdog, but overcoming hatred. To be honest I don't think he gets the point on why people were upset about how the underdog themes were ruined nor why people got annoyed with how the cycle of hatred was handled (plus some unnecessary sakura bashing).

https://youtu.be/l2tgLkVVgfg

 

Seriously, people need to watch Dodgeball: An Underdog story because that is exactly what it is. 


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#31 Bryon_Konoha_Ninja

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Posted 20 November 2021 - 10:36 PM

Seriously, people need to watch Dodgeball: An Underdog story because that is exactly what it is.


Good call! There's lots of other kinds of golden underdog stories out there to check out




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