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Analysis of NS scenes post-ending


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#561 DrK

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Posted 07 February 2018 - 02:10 AM

Yeah, and it shows terrible storytelling when she never found out the truth. One of the few moments they had "together" was actually Naruto. That should have been the defining moment for NS. 

 

She finds out that her most prominent memory of Sasuke is actually the guy who's always been there for her and she realizes her feelings for Naruto.

It's one of the more ridiculous things ever when pro-enders say that finding out about it would have had no effect on her, or that Sakura would just get angry at Naruto and want to hit him after finding out. He said exactly what she wanted to hear. That was the one time Sasuke ever said something heartfelt to her, and it was fake. She would have been trying to replicate that over the next year, and never having any success. Then she finds out it was all in vain and Sasuke really is an ice cube. But she wouldn't care? It's an absurd proposition.

 

I know I said that it is not reasonable to have her be in love with Sasuke and not really have strong feelings for Naruto and then have her find out and completely flip that. But it is entirely reasonable that finding out would deal irreparable damage to her feelings for him.


Edited by DrK, 07 February 2018 - 02:13 AM.


#562 jak123

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Posted 07 February 2018 - 04:15 AM

It's one of the more ridiculous things ever when pro-enders say that finding out about it would have had no effect on her, or that Sakura would just get angry at Naruto and want to hit him after finding out. He said exactly what she wanted to hear. That was the one time Sasuke ever said something heartfelt to her, and it was fake. She would have been trying to replicate that over the next year, and never having any success. Then she finds out it was all in vain and Sasuke really is an ice cube. But she wouldn't care? It's an absurd proposition.

 

I know I said that it is not reasonable to have her be in love with Sasuke and not really have strong feelings for Naruto and then have her find out and completely flip that. But it is entirely reasonable that finding out would deal irreparable damage to her feelings for him.

See I could totally believe she would have gotten mad at him for deceiving her at first, but that same moment would turn into something heartfelt where she confesses her feelings for Naruto. That would have been perfect in my opinion. See, it's easier for pro-enders just to deny everything saying this and that wouldn't have happen, the problem is all this development between them proves otherwise.

 

I'm surprised no one has ever tackled this in a doujin. Or seriously, I'd love if they did a movie that was an alternate NS ending. Bet you it would sell way better than The Last.


Edited by jak123, 07 February 2018 - 04:16 AM.


#563 DrK

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Posted 07 February 2018 - 04:36 AM

See I could totally believe she would have gotten mad at him for deceiving her at first, but that same moment would turn into something heartfelt where she confesses her feelings for Naruto. That would have been perfect in my opinion. See, it's easier for pro-enders just to deny everything saying this and that wouldn't have happen, the problem is all this development between them proves otherwise.

Yeah, I didn't mean she wouldn't get angry. I had her get angry in my story too. But there was a poster here who would say that ALL she would do is punch him, and that's it. Like "You tried to kiss me back when we were 12 by pretending to be my bad boy prince?! *BAM*" And then that's it. She doesn't have any kind of doubt over her feelings for Sasuke or think that Naruto's understanding of her back then was remotely significant. Like how shallow do these people believe Sakura to be? It's really depressing.

 

On the doujin thing, I'm pretty sure they have. Maybe try the YouTube channel I linked in the topic that winter-serenade made.


Edited by DrK, 07 February 2018 - 04:39 AM.


#564 jak123

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Posted 07 February 2018 - 11:26 PM

Yeah, I didn't mean she wouldn't get angry. I had her get angry in my story too. But there was a poster here who would say that ALL she would do is punch him, and that's it. Like "You tried to kiss me back when we were 12 by pretending to be my bad boy prince?! *BAM*" And then that's it. She doesn't have any kind of doubt over her feelings for Sasuke or think that Naruto's understanding of her back then was remotely significant. Like how shallow do these people believe Sakura to be? It's really depressing.

 

On the doujin thing, I'm pretty sure they have. Maybe try the YouTube channel I linked in the topic that winter-serenade made.

Ah, I see what you are saying. Yeah, considering all the development, she wouldn't have just gotten angry and then that was it. 



#565 James S Cassidy

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Posted 08 February 2018 - 06:47 PM

See I could totally believe she would have gotten mad at him for deceiving her at first, but that same moment would turn into something heartfelt where she confesses her feelings for Naruto. That would have been perfect in my opinion. See, it's easier for pro-enders just to deny everything saying this and that wouldn't have happen, the problem is all this development between them proves otherwise.

 

I'm surprised no one has ever tackled this in a doujin. Or seriously, I'd love if they did a movie that was an alternate NS ending. Bet you it would sell way better than The Last.

I imagine something similar to the Pein Arc hug. You know where she kind of tapped him on the head and then hugged him and he was fine? Yeah, that is mostly how it plays out.
 

 

Yeah, I didn't mean she wouldn't get angry. I had her get angry in my story too. But there was a poster here who would say that ALL she would do is punch him, and that's it. Like "You tried to kiss me back when we were 12 by pretending to be my bad boy prince?! *BAM*" And then that's it. She doesn't have any kind of doubt over her feelings for Sasuke or think that Naruto's understanding of her back then was remotely significant. Like how shallow do these people believe Sakura to be? It's really depressing.

 

On the doujin thing, I'm pretty sure they have. Maybe try the YouTube channel I linked in the topic that winter-serenade made.

It's almost like they believe females can't change their hearts about people. They can't change their minds or relook at everything, but apparently men do this all the time. We apparently go from girl to girl and never truly be in love...until we find that one girl who is so head over heels for us that she is pratically a slave. Is that what love is?

It still gets me to this day how we live in a society that say that "women are independant, women are strong, women don't need men," but then openly support a woman who is pratically a slave to a man to the point that it is her only definining feature.

"How is Hinata a good character?"
"Well, because she loves Naruto with all her heart."
"Besides Naruto, what else makes her a good character?"
"Well.....she is strong because of Naruto."
"Besides Naruto...."
"She is willing to risk her life....to save Naruto."
"*sigh* So you're saying other than Naruto, she has no defining features?"
"She has tons of defining features"
"Like what?"

"Like how much she loves Naruto."
"I'm done."


Edited by James S Cassidy, 08 February 2018 - 06:49 PM.

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#566 Gravenimage

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Posted 08 February 2018 - 07:22 PM

I imagine something similar to the Pein Arc hug. You know where she kind of tapped him on the head and then hugged him and he was fine? Yeah, that is mostly how it plays out.
 

 

It's almost like they believe females can't change their hearts about people. They can't change their minds or relook at everything, but apparently men do this all the time. We apparently go from girl to girl and never truly be in love...until we find that one girl who is so head over heels for us that she is pratically a slave. Is that what love is?

It still gets me to this day how we live in a society that say that "women are independant, women are strong, women don't need men," but then openly support a woman who is pratically a slave to a man to the point that it is her only definining feature.

"How is Hinata a good character?"
"Well, because she loves Naruto with all her heart."
"Besides Naruto, what else makes her a good character?"
"Well.....she is strong because of Naruto."
"Besides Naruto...."
"She is willing to risk her life....to save Naruto."
"*sigh* So you're saying other than Naruto, she has no defining features?"
"She has tons of defining features"
"Like what?"

"Like how much she loves Naruto."
"I'm done."

 

This^ is the mentality of the average NH or hardcore Hinata fan. I remember in the past I used to have so many debates concerning her character and they will always get so mad. It's just pitiful and even pathetic to have a character whose only purpose is to be with a character as a pair. She never had a dream outside of having Naruto all to herself. As the heiress of a prestigious clan her dream should be to rule it differently from her father and ancestors. To eliminate the bird cage seal from the second branch members, to change it for the better. But instead her character is nothing but bang Naruto and have his babies, that's it. I'm sorry but I see no reason WHY I should like a character like that.  


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#567 DrK

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Posted 08 February 2018 - 07:41 PM

I'm sorry but I see no reason WHY I should like a character like that.  

There were reasons to like her. But when the story is over, and she can't do anything anymore, and she never did anything to begin with ,or changed, at all, then yeah, it's hard to like her.


Edited by DrK, 08 February 2018 - 08:59 PM.


#568 James S Cassidy

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Posted 08 February 2018 - 07:47 PM

There were reasons to like her. But when the story is over, and she can't do anything anymore, and she never did anything to begin with ,or changed, at all, then yeah, it's hard to like her.

Please tell me those reasons because I cannot think of a single one.


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#569 DrK

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Posted 08 February 2018 - 08:59 PM

I like Hinata, any iteration, more than the person that ending fans think Sakura is supposed to be. Or rather whoever she was made out to be by Kishi and whoever wrote those ridiculous light novels? Like, was the Heaven and Earth bridge scene retconned? It wasn't, right? That did happen in canon. Yet many people exist who would claim that Sakura was a consistent character. A consistent fangirl garbage fire, but still, consistent. My question is, how is this possible? What is the interpretation of that scene that actually works for Kishi's purposes of selling out to NH? Hinata at least makes sense.

 

Sakura threw her very life up into the wind. There was no guarantee that she would survive. You could even say that it was likely that she would die. There was no reason to think that Kyuubi Naruto would just attack her once and stop. He could've beaten her to death. This would have actually been better than some alternatives, like her getting dosed with so much Kyuubi chakra that she'd burn from the inside out until there was nothing left. Which would be extremely painful (Bane: For Sakura.)

 

But let's say he does hit her only once. Who says she is gonna get hit on the arm? She could have gotten impaled. She could've gotten decapitated. She could have gotten mortally wounded in so many ways. And Sakura was the medic. No one else can heal her. They could very easily end up in a situation where she is incapacitated and every other member of the squad is just watching her slowly die. That would have been quite unpleasant also.

 

And yet this is apparently what happened. Right? She put herself into that situation, by choice, via an extremely, EXTREMELY irrational decision. And she made this decision to save a... little brother? A stupid friend who she generally finds annoying? Someone she doesn't even actually like, but is forced to be around? Because one or all of these is apparently the canonical Sakura's view of Naruto according to fans.

 

Let's keep something else in mind. Naruto's life wasn't even in danger. He was just very upset. And the Kyuubi thing naturally hurts him. He wasn't going to die. But Sakura is. To make him feel better. Okay! That's cool. Let's do that.

 

But now you're stuck. Now you have established something. You have established that Sakura values Naruto's happiness more so than she does her own life. Because she was willing to risk that life for a mere chance of saving the happiness of Naruto. This life of hers is an item with certain applications, such as saving Sasuke or being with/marrying Sasuke. Saving Sasuke or being with Sasuke has to be worth less than or equal to her life, not more, for obvious reasons. So Sasuke is worth less than her life, because she can't enjoy his presence if she's dead, and more than, I dunno, a bag of donuts. 

 

Let's assume that marrying Sakura could have made Naruto happier. Is the canonical problem, then, that she simply didn't know this? Because I don't really see how else to possibly explain it. Naruto's happiness is at such a premium here, worth more than the man she loves, and apparently did marry. That you'd think she would at least offer up her hand in marriage to Naruto first, and ask "Would it make you happy to marry me?" and if he said "yes" then she would do so. I mean that's an entirely free action. There's no way it could hurt anything. Why not at least spend the time to try it?  Since Naruto's happiness is related to Naruto, and Naruto expressed interest in being with her romantically, it's basically a certainty that she would consider the marriage of herself as an option to obtain the aforementioned. So given the choice between marrying Sasuke to be with Sasuke, valued at her life or less, or marrying Naruto to make him happy by being with him, valued at Naruto's happiness, or MORE, she chose to marry Sasuke.

 

The ending can only work after this scene if she was unaware of the potential that marrying him could have a positive effect on his happiness at all. Which given the storyline is entirely impossible. There isn't any risk in offering herself to Naruto romantically and the scene clearly establishes that she would do that 100 times out of 100 before marrying Sasuke. Because saving Sasuke is worth Sakura's life or less, and she can't marry Sasuke if she's dead, so marrying Sasuke is worth Sakura's life or less also. While the value of Naruto being happy is a value strictly greater than that of the life of Sakura or any lesser valued property, including Sasuke and the bag of donuts. An equally bad decision she could have made is killing Sasuke to obtain a bag of donuts. But if she did that, she'd at least have the donuts. This way she doesn't even have anything.

 

Naruto would have had to decline a proposal at some point. Because she was aware that Naruto was interested in her, therefore she has to offer herself in marriage to Naruto first to serve the greater priority of his happiness before she can avail herself to Sasuke. They needed to do that.

 

... They basically did do that. Maybe Kishi is a genius after all. But seriously, Sakura doesn't make sense. She was never clarified as being insane or schizophrenic. This is not the only example either. Hinata at least is consistent, she never risked her life for or blushed at Kiba, she only ever liked Naruto, and she won. She sucks, but I just can't feel anything when I think about her. I do feel something, namely great irritation, when people deny the very obvious motives behind the crap that Sakura did for him.

 

James: Wanting to get rid of the caged bird seal crap for her, now dead so she can be with the guy she likes, cousin?


Edited by DrK, 08 February 2018 - 11:44 PM.


#570 James S Cassidy

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Posted 10 February 2018 - 03:37 AM

James: Wanting to get rid of the caged bird seal crap for her, now dead so she can be with the guy she likes, cousin?

I'm sorry, when did she want this? Was that before or after she said "Naruto-kun" 15 times a chapter.

If she did want this she gave zero kittens after she married Naruto...so...."What goals?"

"Hinata at least is consistent,"

1. consistency is not always a good thing especially when she should have changed and doesn't.
2. The only one who has not remained consistent is Naruto himself. Heck, even Sasuke has remained more consistent with him not caring about Sakura and always away from the village. Priorities change, but habits do not.


Edited by James S Cassidy, 10 February 2018 - 03:40 AM.

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#571 Phantom_999

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Posted 10 February 2018 - 05:41 AM

Definitely yes. Consistent means that they "don't develop" either. A developed character is what we want, an OOC character that zigzags their personality and is random AF at any given moment is just terrible writing


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#572 DrK

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Posted 10 February 2018 - 05:57 AM

I'm sorry, when did she want this? Was that before or after she said "Naruto-kun" 15 times a chapter.

You know, you're right? There was so little emphasis on this in the manga that it's pathetic? Hmm. I was sure that she wanted that. Could it be that she actually didn't?

 

I would look into this, but reading Narutopedia makes me feel physically ill these days.

 

On the point of consistency... I only meant that in regards to Hinata's stupid romantic feelings, not their entire characters. It would have been so easy for Kishi to throw in something KibaHina or even do more NejiHina things during Shippuden, to set himself up for later. But he didn't do that at all. And that is a point in their favor as much as I don't want to admit it. Hinata only likes Naruto. I can't hate her for liking Naruto. Everything else is quite hateable, though, I grant you that much.


Edited by DrK, 10 February 2018 - 06:18 AM.


#573 jak123

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Posted 10 February 2018 - 06:55 AM

You know, you're right? There was so little emphasis on this in the manga that it's pathetic? Hmm. I was sure that she wanted that. Could it be that she actually didn't?

 

I would look into this, but reading Narutopedia makes me feel physically ill these days.

 

On the point of consistency... I only meant that in regards to Hinata's stupid romantic feelings, not their entire characters. It would have been so easy for Kishi to throw in something KibaHina or even do more NejiHina things during Shippuden, to set himself up for later. But he didn't do that at all. And that is a point in their favor as much as I don't want to admit it. Hinata only likes Naruto. I can't hate her for liking Naruto. Everything else is quite hateable, though, I grant you that much.

I could have totally seen Hinata getting with Kiba or Shino.



#574 DrK

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Posted 10 February 2018 - 11:21 AM

Something just occurred to me. Not sure if anyone has ever brought up this point before about NS. Maybe they have. But I'm going to.

 

You know how it's always said that Sasuke is Naruto's best friend? Why do they say that, and where does that idea even come from? Sasuke left the village pretty quickly. After that point, he spends all of his time around Sakura. In Dragon Ball, Goku goes through several different best friends. At first it's Bulma. Then it becomes Krillin, and IMO, it ended up becoming Vegeta at the end. So... Shouldn't his best friend spot have switched to Sakura? But it didn't. Why didn't it? Because she was the love interest. He didn't view her as a friend. So Sasuke remains, and always would remain, his best friend, as a rule.

 

If NS truly wasn't the intention, it would have been stated, at least once, that Sakura was his best friend, which is something that never happens. Even if this idea was inaccurate because of Naruto's strong feelings about Sasuke. Some character would have stated it or at least implied it. Whether or not they would have been corrected is not relevant. But the idea of them doing so did not enter Kishi's head because he was supposed to be with Sakura. Every single other character views their relationship as potentially romantic because he was supposed to be with Sakura.

 

There are just so many angles you can use where what happened just looks wrong. I really believe the only way to accept the ending is to just not have an open mind about it.


Edited by DrK, 10 February 2018 - 11:25 AM.


#575 Bryon_Konoha_Ninja

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Posted 10 February 2018 - 04:02 PM

Something just occurred to me. Not sure if anyone has ever brought up this point before about NS. Maybe they have. But I'm going to.

 

You know how it's always said that Sasuke is Naruto's best friend? Why do they say that, and where does that idea even come from? Sasuke left the village pretty quickly. After that point, he spends all of his time around Sakura. In Dragon Ball, Goku goes through several different best friends. At first it's Bulma. Then it becomes Krillin, and IMO, it ended up becoming Vegeta at the end. So... Shouldn't his best friend spot have switched to Sakura? But it didn't. Why didn't it? Because she was the love interest. He didn't view her as a friend. So Sasuke remains, and always would remain, his best friend, as a rule.

 

If NS truly wasn't the intention, it would have been stated, at least once, that Sakura was his best friend, which is something that never happens. Even if this idea was inaccurate because of Naruto's strong feelings about Sasuke. Some character would have stated it or at least implied it. Whether or not they would have been corrected is not relevant. But the idea of them doing so did not enter Kishi's head because he was supposed to be with Sakura. Every single other character views their relationship as potentially romantic because he was supposed to be with Sakura.

 

There are just so many angles you can use where what happened just looks wrong. I really believe the only way to accept the ending is to just not have an open mind about it.

 

I know what you mean, dude, and you really got a lot of it for sure. The fact none of this was done tends to go and show more and more how messed up Naruto has become in the end from how it was in the beginning.



#576 DrK

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Posted 10 February 2018 - 04:15 PM

 

I know what you mean, dude, and you really got a lot of it for sure. The fact none of this was done tends to go and show more and more how messed up Naruto has become in the end from how it was in the beginning.

The rabbit hole is so deep. The second you notice that something couldn't possibly make sense to do if this was the ending he planned, that's it. There's no going back. You're never going to accept it again, never going to like it again, even if you liked it to begin with, which is unlikely. And you notice more and more all the time. And you NEVER notice anything that's like, "Wow! This is a perfect foreshadowing or setup to the ending that he made!" That never happens. It's just... so obvious. How can anyone not see it? Are they in the Matrix?



#577 Yyubie

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Posted 10 February 2018 - 04:16 PM

naruto-5211619.jpg

 

You know when i read this chapter for the first time , my suspicion finally complete. He should have said that to her face before he knock her out cold.

You know at the end of the day the only moral message i got from this manga is : We lived in the world full of lies , the moment we born we already step into fake reality and that's not gonna change until we die because death is the only truth and salvation.

 

It's just so sad and heartbreaking looking at Sakura , she was prevented from knowing the truth that all those times she was chasing a lies , imagine if you in her position , for 20-ish F-ing years ... chasing after a wrong person ... fall in love with a wrong person and never know that the person you chase is actually never give a F about you

 

Nothing got resolve , Naruto sure yeah he become hokage and he and everyone else got married and produce an off spring for the next milker i mean the next generate of money making cash cow. From war arc onward until boruto today is all just lies , i really hope someone or some kind miracle happen , someone brave enough and save this franchise.


Edited by Yyubie, 10 February 2018 - 04:22 PM.

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#578 jak123

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Posted 10 February 2018 - 05:18 PM

If NS truly wasn't the intention, it would have been stated, at least once, that Sakura was his best friend, which is something that never happens. Even if this idea was inaccurate because of Naruto's strong feelings about Sasuke. Some character would have stated it or at least implied it. Whether or not they would have been corrected is not relevant. But the idea of them doing so did not enter Kishi's head because he was supposed to be with Sakura. Every single other character views their relationship as potentially romantic because he was supposed to be with Sakura.

And even then Sakura was his best friend anyway. She was the closest person to Naruto, hands down. She was also his main love interest. I never understood why Naruto considered Sasuke his best friend because in my opinion, the biggest reason he wanted to get Sasuke back was because of Sakura.



#579 jak123

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Posted 10 February 2018 - 05:20 PM

naruto-5211619.jpg

 

You know when i read this chapter for the first time , my suspicion finally complete. He should have said that to her face before he knock her out cold.

You know at the end of the day the only moral message i got from this manga is : We lived in the world full of lies , the moment we born we already step into fake reality and that's not gonna change until we die because death is the only truth and salvation.

 

It's just so sad and heartbreaking looking at Sakura , she was prevented from knowing the truth that all those times she was chasing a lies , imagine if you in her position , for 20-ish F-ing years ... chasing after a wrong person ... fall in love with a wrong person and never know that the person you chase is actually never give a F about you

 

Nothing got resolve , Naruto sure yeah he become hokage and he and everyone else got married and produce an off spring for the next milker i mean the next generate of money making cash cow. From war arc onward until boruto today is all just lies , i really hope someone or some kind miracle happen , someone brave enough and save this franchise.

Yeah, that whole chapter pissed me off. Stabbing her and then saying that. Made no kittening sense to me that Sasuke married her in the end. 



#580 DrK

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Posted 10 February 2018 - 05:24 PM

 

It's just so sad and heartbreaking looking at Sakura , she was prevented from knowing the truth that all those times she was chasing a lies , imagine if you in her position , for 20-ish F-ing years ... chasing after a wrong person ... fall in love with a wrong person and never know that the person you chase is actually never give a F about you

Hey, she tried to stop. She did. There is no real equivocation when it comes to this. If, in the snow, Naruto had accepted her, she would never have gone back to Sasuke. Because that would have hurt Naruto, which is something canon had clearly established she was not willing to do under any circumstances. Something she would even die to stop from happening. Naruto simply didn't accommodate her wishes. She wouldn't have been with him if Naruto, or anyone else for that matter, had given a damn about trying to stop it. But they didn't. They only cared about Sasuke.


Edited by DrK, 10 February 2018 - 05:25 PM.





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